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Search the Scriptures Daily Program #4606a Transcript follows:

Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for tuning in. Coming up in the next hour in our Understanding the Scripture segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and, “Why did Paul claim Roman citizenship?” In Religion in the News, “Interview with a psychic.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Is the human heart depraved or not?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video tapes and copies of our weekly broadcast on tape or compact disk. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s Cover Article. We continue our series of programs based on Dave Hunt’s book, When Will Jesus Come? This week we address the topic: “Will the Rapture occur at the last trump?” Along with Dave Hunt, here is T. A. McMahon.

Tom:

Thanks, Gary. You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. In this first segment of our program, we’ve been discussing Dave Hunt’s book, When Will Jesus Come? subtitled: Compelling Evidence For The Soon Return Of Christ. Now, Dave, last week as we reviewed chapter 17, there were things you wrote that we really didn’t have time to address, or at least explain them more fully. Now, one such item relates to the belief, not a belief that we hold, by the way, but a belief that the Church would go through the Great Tribulation before it was taken out of the way by our Lord in the Rapture. Now, if this is truly the case, and many people, as you know, make a case for it, why didn’t the apostle Paul, who wrote most of the epistles, why didn’t he in his writing help prepare the Church to face the Antichrist and suffer through tribulation more terrible really than the world has ever experienced?

Dave:

Well, it a good question, Tom, in fact he didn’t, he warns about apostasy. He says, in fact, in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, that the Antichrist cannot be revealed until He who now hinders is removed. So, I don’t know why he would warn the Christians to prepare for the Antichrist when he says that the Church has to be removed. We explained that in the past---He who now hinders will hinder until He is taken out of the way, then shall that wicked be revealed. So, who could hinder Antichrist? Only God Himself, but God Himself is omnipresent, He can’t be removed. So what are we talking about? We explained that Jesus said that those who believe on Him out of their innermost being would flow rivers of living water. This is John 7, beginning at Verse 37, and John who is recording this, writing it, he makes the comment that Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit, which they that believe not Him should receive. And then he makes this statement, “for the Holy Ghost was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.” So, at Pentecost, and in the Church we have a presence of God, the Holy Spirit on this earth that there never was before, and that presence must be removed, there is no other way to explain it. It’s not going to remove God himself. The Holy Spirit will still be here to convince the world of sin and righteousness and judgment to come. There will be people who will trust Christ who will be saved. They didn’t know the gospel before, but during the Great Tribulation they will hear it and they will come to faith in Christ and pay for it with their lives. But Tom, there is no other explanation for that. So, why would Paul warn people and prepare them for facing in Antichrist when he himself said Antichrist would not be revealed until the Church was removed?

Tom:

Dave, what was the issue in 1 Thessalonians that Paul was correcting them about?

Dave:

Well, he was correcting them because some of them had died before the Rapture, and they were concerned that those who had died before the Rapture, I guess, they’re gone---that only those who are alive and remain, who are alive when Christ returns would be taken to heaven. And so in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4, beginning at Verse 13, but going on down, he says: We who are alive shall not prevent those, or precede those who are asleep, for the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, voice of the archangel, trump of God, the dead in Christ will rise first---then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air---so shall we ever be with the Lord. And then he says: Wherefore, comfort one another with these words. Now, in his second epistle to the Thessalonians Chapter 1, I guess, 2 or thereabouts, he said: I don’t want you to be troubled, concerned by some letter as though it came from us as that the day of the Lord has already come. Because in Chapter 5, in 1 Thessalonians, he said: You yourselves know the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, but I didn’t have to warn you about this, you understand these things.

Tom:

So, at that time the Thessalonians were being subjected to some persecution, is that right?

Dave:

Yeah, the entire Church was always subject to persecution, but the thing that had troubled them was that they had gotten a letter from a false apostle, apparently, saying: Because of this persecution, that means the Day of the Lord is already here. Now, that’s a very powerful passage, Tom, for a pre-trib Rapture, because if you look at that verse, who would be concerned if the Day of the Lord was here? And if you think you’re going to go through the Great Tribulation, which is part of the Day of the Lord, this is how it begins, well okay---

Tom:

You wouldn’t be troubled by it.

Dave:

No, let’s get on with it, you got to go through it anyway, or mid-trib, or pre-wrath, same thing. Now, who would be troubled, who would be upset? Only if you had been taught by Paul that the Rapture preceded the day of the Lord. And what he says in Chapter 5 of 1 Thessalonians, The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night---and Peter says the same thing in his second epistle. Well, it reminds you of what Jesus said: You had better watch because I’m coming like a thief in the night. Okay. So, if Paul had taught them that the Rapture marks the beginning of the day of the Lord, and they get a letter from some authority saying, O, we are already in the day of the Lord in this Great Tribulation, but they’re still here, Paul is still here. Either Paul lied to them, Paul was simply wrong, not inspired of God, or they’ve been left behind, both of them would be very troubling thoughts.

Tom:

Right. Dave, again, it comes back to the first point. We don’t find Paul saying, Yes, and here’s what you do next---you are in the Tribulation, now here’s how we deal with it. You don’t find any of that.

Dave:

Yeah, because he goes on to say, That day cannot come except there come an apostasy first. Well, that’s a tough verse, Tom, maybe we can deal with that, I think we probably have, maybe a few years ago. The apostasy comes first, and the man of sin will be revealed. Now, people read that as though the day of the Lord can’t come until the man of sin has first been revealed. Now what it says is, it doesn’t say the man of sin must be revealed first, it says there must be an apostasy first, and then the day of the Lord will come. And, in that day, the man of sin will be revealed. The antichrist obviously is revealed during the Great Tribulation. He’s not revealed before the Great Tribulation. That doesn’t make any sense at all. The antichrist cannot be revealed until the Church has been removed, and a number of other reasons, because in Revelation 13 it says, he is given authority over the saints to kill them. So, as I often say, maybe a little bit facetiously, Tom, a post-trib Rapture would be a classic non-event. There’s nobody left to rapture except for a hand full of people who ran fast enough to keep one step ahead of the world police, because if you don’t take his mark you can’t buy or sell. You couldn’t go into a store. They got you right there, you don’t have a mark for buying, so you’re eating out of garbage pails. You don’t bow down to worship his image, you are killed. So, obviously, if you didn’t take his mark, you didn’t bow down and worship his image. So, Tom, there’s no way for a Christian, a believer in Christ, to escape during the Great Tribulation. So there aren’t any left at the Great Tribulation. But the Bible says the gates of hell cannot prevail against the Church. Satan is not going to overcome the Church. But here we would have the antichrist slaughtering the Church. Now, granted that there’s been a lot of slaughter of Christians down through the ages, but not the whole Church. The whole church has never even been wiped out in China or anywhere else. But, during the Great Tribulation antichrist will have the means, GPS, you’ve got a mark, I’m sure it would be a computer. They can follow you from those satellites, you can’t get away. So, there’s not going to be anybody left. So, the Church must be removed. Well, then who are these people that get saved during the Great Tribulation? Well, they are killed and we see a great company of them under the throne of God in chapter 6. Chapter 7 you see them again in Revelation, and they are crying out, “How long, Lord, before you avenge us, avenge our blood?” And the Lord says, “not until the rest of your brethren have been killed.” And then in Chapter 20 of Revelation we have resurrection, it’s called the first resurrection, but it is a continuation of the first resurrection at the Rapture. It can’t be the same as that, there’s no one raptured, there’s no catching up to meet Him in the air, His feet are on the Mount of Olives now, and you have a resurrection of those, it’s very specific, of those who were beheaded for the testimony of Christ. Well, I don’t think every person has to be beheaded, you might have been shot, who knows what happened to you, tortured to death. But those that died during the Great Tribulation, they will be resurrected at the end of the Great Tribulation, obviously. But, Paul is telling them not to be concerned if someone has already died, the Rapture hasn’t occurred, that doesn’t mean that they’ll be left behind. They are going to be taken at the Rapture. He’s talking about a Rapture which catches up the living and resurrects the dead and they all go together in heaven.

Tom:

Dave, also in chapter 17, you raise a point which is another argument that the post-tribers bring and that is the “last trump.” They say because of the last trump when the dead in Christ shall be resurrected that that takes place well into the Tribulation according to Revelation 11. What about that?

Dave:

Oh, but that’s the last trump there. There are many trumps and I do not know how to interpret that, Tom. You see there are undoubtedly difficult passages. But, when we take the whole Bible together, when we take all the passages pertaining to the Rapture, for example, it’s very clear it’s not coming at that time. I don’t know. I Corinthians 15 also talks about the trumpet shall sound, “behold I show you a mystery, we won’t all sleep, we won’t all be in the grave, we will all be changed.” The trumpet will sound, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, we will be changed. What trump it is, Tom, I don’t know, but it certainly is not that one in Revelation because that’s in the middle, that’s not even pre-wrath or mid-trib, or post-trib, it doesn’t fit anywhere. Why should that trump mark the resurrection and the catching up to heaven? Because, furthermore, Tom, I just quoted a verse that would put an end to that idea and that is, “when are you going to avenge our blood?” Not until all your brethren have been killed. So, the Rapture couldn’t come in the middle of the Tribulation and take some of these martyrs out and then there’s going to be more martyrs, because that doesn’t sound like the avenging of the blood. It just doesn’t fit, Tom. Furthermore, last week or the week before, we noted in Luke 17, and you have the same thing in Matthew 24, as it was in the days of Noah, and in the days of Lot, they’re eating and drinking and marrying and partying and buying and selling and planting and building. Tom, by the time you get to that last trump, the seventh trump, I mean, this world is practically destroyed. I don’t see business as usual. It’s not possible. That, again, tells us of a pre-trib Rapture before all this happens. Furthermore, I Thessalonians 1 says, “He has not appointed us unto wrath.” Well, by the time you get to the seventh trump there you have a lot of wrath of God poured out. Even in chapter six they’re crying out to the mountains and the rocks to cover them, to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb. So, it won’t work, Tom.

Tom:

Dave, it also confuses the issue of the Church. If those who are raptured, raptured at the mid-point of the Tribulation, is that the Church? And if they are taken to heaven, what about those who are left? Do they then become the Church later? I think it’s a problem.

Dave:

Well, Tom, I don’t know whether we’ve given this before. I can only give my idea. We study the Bible and we try to bring all of it to bear. And, I can tell you, here’s how I divide the Church, ok? And, I guess I would be in the minority.

Tom:

Well, then we encourage people to be Bereans. Check out what you say, right?

Dave:

Right. I think everyone who is in the first resurrection is in the Church. That would be one reason why, you see it puzzles a lot of people, it seems strange. Revelation 20, it says this is the first resurrection. Well, but it says only those who have been beheaded or killed, the martyrs, those who’ve been martyred through the Great Tribulation. They’re the only ones who are resurrected in Revelation 20. Well, if that’s the first resurrection, when does the resurrection at the Rapture occur? Haven’t even had a resurrection, haven’t even had a Rapture, apparently. No, it means this is the culmination. These people are in this resurrection, ok? At the Rapture and the resurrection at the end of the Great Tribulation that is one resurrection. Ok? So, everyone who’s in that resurrection is in the same category. Now, why would that be? The only conclusion I can come to, Tom, is this, we get in Zechariah 12:10, “they will look on Me whom they have pierced.” Israel does not come to faith as a whole in Christ until they see Him. Jesus said that at this point all Israel would be saved. He said, “he that endures to the end will be saved.” It doesn’t mean if you hang on to Jesus you’re secure for eternity. But those who are alive, and 2/3rds of all the Jews on planet earth will be killed.

Tom:

Now again, Dave, I have to keep saying this, this is according to the Jewish prophets. You’re just explaining what the prophets have said.

Dave:

Yes. Thank you. Jeremiah 13, if anyone wants to look it up. Or, Jeremiah 30:7, the time of Jacob’s trouble. Or you get on to verse 10 and 11 where God says to Israel, “though I make a full end of all the nations wither I have scattered you, I won’t make a full end of you, but I will punish you.” You’re going to be punished. So, 2/3rds will be killed. Okay. So, the 1/3^rd that is alive when Jesus returns, they will all believe. Now, Jesus said to Thomas---Thomas said: Unless I see Him, unless I put my finger in the nail prints, and so forth, I’m not going to believe. Thomas then falls down when this happens: My Lord and my God. Jesus says, Blessed are you Thomas, because you have believeth. Blessed are those who believe without seeing. Okay. Those who believe without seeing, I believe are in the Church. Now, that includes, I think, Abraham, I think it includes David. If Abraham, who Jesus said rejoiced to see my day and he saw it and was glad, if he is not one of those, 1st Thessalonians chapter 4, Those who sleep in Jesus shall God bring with Him. They have died, having faith in Christ the Messiah, who was to come. Now there are those who say, Well, Old Testament saints are not in the Church, New Testament saints are. I don’t know where you can draw the line. The only place I think you can draw the line is those who see Him. If you’re not saved, if you do not come to faith in Christ before you see Him, and you are alive when He returns, you believe, you continue into the millennial kingdom alive on this earth. You are not resurrected because you didn’t die. You’re not raptured because the only rapture we read of takes place simultaneously with the resurrection. So, Tom, I wandered around but that’s the way that I divide this. So, you believe in Jesus before you see Him, whether you are in the Great Tribulation, whether you are in the Old Testament, whatever it is, you are in the Church, because you’re taken to heaven, you are in heaven. Okay. You are resurrected, you have a resurrected glorified body. You don’t believe in Jesus until you see Him, or subsequently thereto, you still have a body, you haven’t been resurrected, you haven’t been transformed, you’re not part of a resurrection, it’s not even happening at the time of the resurrection. You continue in that physical body until the millennial kingdom, and you will thereafter be part of that kingdom on the new earth in the new heavens, in my opinion.

Tom:

Dave, I think about Job, the Book of Job. Many people believe he was one of the patriarchs at the time of Abraham and so on, and he says, I know that my redeemer liveth. I mean, he had an insight of Jesus, so that would include him. The only problem I have with that, Dave, is the Bride of Christ, Christ’s intimacy with--from the time of the church and beyond, seemed to be a different category, so I don’t know.

Dave:

Tom, you raise a good point, because there is a wedding that takes place up in heaven, and it sounds as though those who are resurrected, having died during the Great Tribulation, that resurrection takes place later. On the other hand, they are already in heaven, their souls and spirits are in heaven, and if they don’t yet have their resurrected, glorified bodies, I don’t see that that would hinder them from being part of this company. And they will get that body, I believe, simultaneously with Christ coming back, maybe at the moment. So, I think they are included, Tom.

Search the Scriptures Daily Program #4606b Transcript follows: Gary: This is Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, answers to your questions in Contending for the Faith, and in Understanding the Scriptures, Dave and Tom will resume their conversation on God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program we publish a monthly newsletter, which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials or to get a copy of today’s broadcast write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708. Call our toll free order number 877-882-4253. That’s 877-88Bible, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on tape or compact disc ask for Program #4606, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. And now, if you would like to watch Dave and Tom, our weekly broadcast is available on DVD. Ask about a subscription when you contact us. You can also download both audio and video podcast at our website. If you receive television programming from Sky Angel you’ll be able to view our video, In Defense of Israel, with former Israeli General Shimon Erem on November 25, starting at 9 p.m. eastern. We invite you to tune in. Well repeat this information at the end of the program. RELIGION IN THE NEWS Now, Religion in the News, a report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from the Oregonian, August 17, 2006, with a headline: Interview With A Psychic. The following are excerpts: Laura O’ Donald meets a visitor at the door of her split level home in Portland, Oregon. The 34-year old physical therapist settles herself into an overstuffed chair, gives a beatific smile and asks: “Do you have any questions for the spirit world?” Growing numbers of Americans are turning to psychics, or intuitive as a way to achieve spiritual wellness. Even Kaiser Permanente, one of the country’s largest traditional HMO’s promotes the concept. Ms. O’Donald, who has a bachelor’s degree in exercise science, and a masters in exercise physiology, draws upon various disciplines, psychology, physiology, mythology and more in an effort to help her clients achieve harmony and greater consciousness. Ms. O’Donald told the Oregonian that the term “psychic” has become such a loaded word that it has been replaced by intuitive. Everyone is intuitive but not necessarily psychic. The ability to sense energy or information from the greater consciousness can come in different forms for different people. The way it works for me is that I get a sense of a person’s energy, and then I will get pictures in my mind’s eye, either symbolic pictures or pictures of actual places or things that exist now in a person’s life. It is up to me to interpret that, based on what thoughts or feelings come along with it. Often I get verbal information that comes like fox in my head. Only I know the difference between my own thoughts and the information that is coming through loved ones or spirit guides. Medical intuition is the ability to perceive emotions, thought processes or life situations that are contributing to physical issues, illnesses or the inability to express our true self. Because of my experience in health care and teaching I often get specific information about a person’s body along with a deeper process that is driving this. Tom: Dave, I found this article really fascinating. As you know, we worked on a book together. Originally it was called, America, the Sorcerers New Apprentice, and now it’s been retitled: New Spirituality. How many years ago was that? Probably 15 years ago, and here’s what I’m fascinated about is these things keep coming around. This back then was new age stuff. Well, the new age is a bit passé. Dave: Well, it went all the way back to spiritism for thousands of years. Tom: Well, that’s the other point. Let’s go through the terminology. There was divination, okay, in the 80’s the big thing was spiritism. Dave: Long before that, in England especially, contact was with spirits of the dead, they have been doing that forever, and they are still doing it, and the CIA even tried to contact spirits of dead agents that the KGB had captured to see if they gave up that information when they were tortured. Tom: You know, the biggest thing in this country in the 1800’s was spiritism, who was it, the Fox sisters? Dave: Right, the Fox sisters. President Lincoln was into it. Tom: Right. Dave: His wife Victoria was into it, so was McKinsey, King of Canada. Tom: Turn of the century we had theosophy. Helen ------- --------- Dave: Helena. Tom: So anyway, so we go from spiritism to the New Age and then we have channeling---well, channeling is another medium, there is mediumship. You’re going to contact spirit guides. I mean, we could take it back to shamanism and so on. But my point is that it keeps coming around again. Now we have the intuitive. Now you know what this all smacks of, it’s not just occultism, it’s not just things the Bible condemns with regard to contacting spirit, these really are demons, but this is all Jungian psychology. That was his term, being intuitive, and he was all into séances, contacting spirits, his techniques were drawn right out of the occult as psychotherapy. Dave: So, Tom, the terminology is a bit confusing. This lady is confused, because on the one hand--- Tom: Not if you understand Jungian analysis. Dave: Well, it still is contradictory. Tom: Oh, absolutely. Dave: Because on the one hand she is talking about energy. Then she talks about the greater consciousness, that’s like science of mind. There’s a religion out there today, science of mind, religious science, they see God as some kind of a universal consciousness. Well, that’s Hinduism. But then she says, loved ones or spirit guides. Now is she really talking to the spirits of the dead or to spirit guides or is this just some kind of energy? Tom: Or archetypes in the collective unconscious. Dave: She doesn’t say that. Tom: But this is what she is saying. Dave: But Tom, it doesn’t make sense. What is it? Energy? Energy doesn’t have thoughts. I defy anyone to find any kind of energy that has thoughts. Energy is impersonal, it doesn’t think. That’s why the Star Wars Force was so popular, dark and light side, well, you can use it as you want. So, Tom, the lady is deceived. Now, there are people like this who, yeah, they do rely on their intuition and they’re guessing. Sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong, they have explanations, but I’m surprised that this was in the Oregonian, that they would even bother with something like this. Tom: But it says, Kaiser Permanente, one of the country’s largest traditional HMO’s, promotes the concept. You know, this goes back to---what was the name of the medical prognosticator back in the 50’s late 40’s? I used to lay down--- Dave: You’re thinking of Edgar Casey. Tom: Edgar Casey, of course, that’s what this is. Dave: But Tom, the whole medical establishment is into it now. Tom: Right, and that’s the difference. Dave: And we have, for example, Murray Segal, a doctor from Yale University, and he developed a spirit guide. He taught people to get spirit guides. We have dealt with this, in fact, tried to contact the entity inside the patient to find out--Tom, it’s the same old thing from way back in Genesis. You’ve got a serpent talking to Eve, now we’ve got all kinds of entities talking to these people, giving the same information exactly. Tom: Sure, but now they are psychobabilized. We’re talking archetypes here, we’re talking concepts that the so-called science field can be comfortable with.

Search the Scriptures Daily Program #4606c Transcript follows: Gary: You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay tuned. CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH Now, Contending for the Faith. In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here is this week’s question: “Dear Dave and TA: Read Luke 8:11-15, and please tell me how Verse 15 jells with the depravity of the human heart? Thanks for taking my question.” Tom: Luke chapter 8, I’ll start with verse 11, “Now the parable is this: The seed is the Word of God. Those by the wayside are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasure of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.” So, Dave, I guess the problem this questioner has is, how can someone have, as it says in Verse 15, “which in an honest and good heart” how can somebody have a heart like that who is depraved? I mean, I know that certainly the Calvinist would say there’s a contradiction here. I mean, they wouldn’t accuse Jesus of that, but there’s a problem with total depravity. Dave: Well, Tom, there are many verses in the Bible the Calvinists avoid very carefully. They avoid most of the Old Testament because it does talk about the honest heart. It talks about willingly from the heart. It talks about a free will offering all through there, and I don’t find any Calvinist in any book dealing with those passages. And the same thing with this passage. Tom: Well, Dave, you yourself, and we’ve quoted Jeremiah 17:9 many times and Calvinists aside, The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who could can know it. Dave: Well, Tom, it doesn’t mean that the heart is incapable of saying or doing something that is right. In other words---Wow! We would be basket cases, you couldn’t believe anything anybody said, but he’s telling us that this is our nature. But we can also turn to the Lord. You know, you have Isaiah 55, Let the wicked forsake his way, the unrighteous man his thoughts. Let him turn unto the Lord, He’ll have mercy upon him. When Jesus says: Come unto Me, or He says, Whosoever will let him take of the water of life freely. Okay. So, when in Genesis chapter 6, God looks down and He sees that the imagination of man’s heart is only evil continually. It doesn’t mean that you couldn’t have a decent thought, because Abimelech the king, for example, Abraham deceived him. He said that Sarah was his sister. And Abimelech the king, says to Abraham after that, you know, rebuking him: I have done nothing but good to you. And Jesus says: The wicked know how to do good, do good to their children, if you do good to those who do good to you, and so forth. So, somehow you are going to turn to the Lord honestly and sincerely, this is why it says: If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in thine hearts. Well, how could you believe in your heart if the heart is totally deceitful above all things and desperately wicked? So, it’s telling us what we are by nature, but nevertheless, we can turn to the Lord, we can receive the Lord. It takes the Holy Spirit to draw us, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t make a choice. Tom: Respond of Him in honesty, with integrity. Dave: Right, He says, Choose you this day whom you will serve. So Tom, we have two possibilities for a person who turns to the Lord. Well no, it has to be totally of God, it’s not anything of himself, he doesn’t make a choice. So, the Calvinist says: We are born again, we are regenerated without even knowing it before we believe, and only after we’ve been regenerated then can God give us the faith. So then, we have this problem---Well then, God does not want everyone saved. He could cause everyone to be saved if He wanted to. He could regenerate everyone and give them faith if He wanted to. But wait a minute! No, because it’s a choice that we must make. Either we have a choice or we don’t have a choice. So, if you would go--there are so many verses--1Timothy 2:4, He is not willing that any should perish. What do you mean, He’s not willing that any should perish. Well, He predestined millions or billions to hell before they were even born. No, He did not! Well, yeah, but God has to give them irresistible grace or they couldn’t believe. So, if He’s not willing that any should perish, and He is the only one who does this, we have no choice in this ourselves because we are totally depraved, then the only reason that everyone is not saved is because God does not want everybody to be saved. But the Bible clearly says He wants everyone to be saved. He wants all to come to the knowledge of the truth. And the Bible ends with the last chapter in the Bible: Let him that is athirst come--whosoever will--Let him take of the water of life freely. And Tom, I would just say that is a wicked thing for God to say: You want to come to Me? Come to me whoever will and take of the water of life freely. Ah, but I can’t do it unless you cause me to, unless you regenerate me first, unless you give me irresistible grace. Then why are you telling me to come? It doesn’t make sense. I think it maligns the very character of God. Tom: I couldn’t agree more, but it is a difficult passage, you know, The Calvinist would say, Of course, a person who is going to have an honest and good heart, it’s because that’s what God gave him, irresistible grace. Dave: No, but Tom, let me object, quickly. The emphasis is upon the good ground, the emphasis is upon the ground. The emphasis is not upon the sower who sows the seed, or upon even the seed, but the emphasis is upon the ground. The honest heart is the good ground. The emphasis is upon our responsibility, and there are so many verses in the Bible. Jesus said, According to your faith. Peter writes, The trial of your faith being more precious than gold that perisheth. What’s the trial about if it’s all of God? He gives us the faith, He causes us to believe, and furthermore, if it’s God who causes us to believe, why don’t we all live a perfect Christian life? And why is there a judgment seat of Christ, and why are there rewards? It doesn’t make any sense, Tom! Gary: If you have a question for Dave and Tom to answer in a future Contending for the Faith, stay with us, we’ll have our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.

Search the Scriptures Daily Program #4606d Transcript follows: Now our final segment: UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES We resume our excursion through the Book of Acts. Here again are Dave and Tom. Tom: This is our Understanding the Scriptures segment, and we’re in the book of Acts, we’re in Acts 16 and we can pick up with verse 35, “And when it was day, the magistrates sent the sergeants, saying, Let those men go.” And of course he is referring to Paul and Silas, who were imprisoned, and an earthquake took place. The Philippian jailer, head of the jail, cried out to them, after recognizing that they hadn’t left, hadn’t escaped, and he didn’t have to kill himself, he asked: What must I do to be saved? And we went over that last week. So, that’s the situation, but now the magistrates would put Paul and Silas in jail after having them scourged. They are trying to get off the hook. Verse 36: “And the keeper of the prison told this saying to Paul, The magistrates have sent to let you go: now therefore depart, and go in peace.” Dave: Now, that was supposed to be good news, but Paul is not going to take this. That’s a lesson for us. Interesting passage, Tom, go ahead. Tom: “But Paul said unto them, They have beaten us openly uncondemned, being Romans, and have cast us into prison; and now do they thrust us out privily? nay verily; but let them come themselves and fetch us out.” Now, Dave, is this just arrogance, is this just pride on Paul’s part? What’s going on here? Dave: Well, it seems that we are supposed to stand up for our rights, according to the law. In other words, if the magistrates, the rulers who are supposed to be God’s servants of righteousness, Romans 13 says, they are supposed to be administrating God’s law in righteousness and they don’t and you have an opportunity to point out to them where they are wrong, we ought to do it. In other words, we shouldn’t just succumb to unrighteousness on the part of rulers. Now, of course if you are in Red China or Russia under Stalin, or we have situations today in many places. What do they say? You can’t fight city hall, and that becomes very complicated. Well, yeah, but you’re not interpreting the law right, and so forth. Anyway, we get a principle here that we should not allow them to get away with wickedness. We should at least stand up against it. Now, if they still ran rough shod over Paul and said, Yeah, but we’re in charge, you guys get out of here or we’ll beat you again. See, Paul was a Roman, and they are going to be a little bit shocked when they find out that they are Romans, and they have broken the law. Tom: So, with being a Roman citizen, he had rights. Dave: Absolutely. Tom: He could appeal to Rome, which he did later. Dave: And of course, much good that does you. So, this is an interesting passage, Tom, because it lays out a principle. We should stand up for righteousness. We should stand up for the righteousness that God expects rulers to administer when they are in that position. So, in Romans 13, when it says, There is no authority but that which is from God. You know, the rulers are ordained of God. It doesn’t mean that God personally chose Hitler or Stalin, and ordained them. It means that God intends that there should be authorities in charge of affairs. Now, unfortunately, sometimes they are voted in, sometimes they get their way in, they don’t deserve to be there, they are bad ones, but the principle is the same. And Paul is standing up for righteousness. Tom: Right, and Dave, we could also add that we have seen people taking a cause that was a good cause, but they have turned it into trying to transform the world, trying to change society to the point where they’ve fallen into, or they have forgotten about their citizenship is in heaven. We’ve seen that as a problem. Dave: Right, but Paul is not doing that, he’s not going to start a campaign and we’re going to transform the Roman Empire, based upon biblical principles, which is what these people are trying to do. He’s just relying on Roman law—you guys ought to obey Roman law. Tom: So Paul wasn’t a theonomist, he wasn’t a reconstructionist. Dave: No, but you guys are in authority by the Roman government, and to exercise their laws properly, and you didn’t do it. Okay, you come and ask us to leave. Tom: Verse 38: “And the sergeants told these words unto the magistrates: and they feared, when they heard that they were Romans. And they came and besought them, and brought them out, and desired them to depart out of the city. And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.” Dave: Interesting! Paul is comforting the brethren, Paul and Silas are comforting the brethren. Tom: Dave, the magistrates were fearful here. Why? Because Paul was going to turn them in, turn them back to Rome? Dave: Well, you just mentioned that, that he could appeal to Caesar, he could report them. They are higher authorities than these men, they are just in charge of a local area, Philippi, but they are not Caesar himself. So, they feared because they have broken the law themselves. Tom: Right, and that goes on their record, they are not going to work their way back to Rome, they may have been out in the provinces trying to get back to the big time, the big city. So Dave, Verse 40: “And they went out of the prison, and entered into the house of Lydia: and when they had seen the brethren, they comforted them, and departed.” Dave: It’s quite clear, Tom, it’s interesting, the brethren are not comforting Paul and Silas, Paul and Silas are comforting the brethren. And it’s like Philippians; Paul is writing from prison, Philippians chapter 4, and he says, My God shall supply all your needs. He says, I can do all things through Christ. So, just because they are thrown into prison, because they have been beaten, that does not change anything as far as they are concerned. This is what they expected, and Christ himself had said in John 15: You are not of this world, because you are not of this world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore, the world hates you. The servant isn’t greater than his Lord. They persecuted Me, what do you think they will do to you? And Paul, remember? he said, In every city bonds and affliction await me. It wasn’t that he came flying in his own jet, like some of the televangelists have. In fact, one husband and wife couple have twin his and her jets, they just paid 20 million dollars each for. Paul staggered into the next town, having been beaten in the last one, praising God and comforting the brethren. And you remember earlier, that would be at the end of chapter 14, it says they went back to all the cities where they had led people to Christ, and they said: Through much tribulation you must enter into the kingdom. They didn’t say you’ve got to go through the Great Tribulation, but you’re going to get tribulation now. 1st Peter Chapter 4, he talks about---Don’t think it’s strange concerning the fiery trial that is to try you as though some strange thing happened unto you. We’re suffering for Christ, okay. So, this is what Paul expected. I think, in comforting the brethren he’s not saying: Well, you guys aren’t going to have to suffer like we’ve suffered. I think he’s saying, Yes, you’re going to suffer, but praise God, the Lord will be with you! And in fact, in Acts chapter 4, which we were in a few months ago, remember when they are beaten they return to their company, and it says: They counted it all a joy to suffer for the sake of Christ. I think that’s the kind of comfort he’s giving them. Tom: Sure. But, also, and, Dave, how often do we just love to hear praise reports, do we love to see people say, well this happened to me, yet what came of this was such and such came to the Lord, etc. Now what do we just have, we have the Philippian jailer, we have his family coming to Christ, so. What’s that worth? A family in part of the fellowship for eternity. So they were on to Acts 17, and we’re going to pick up with that next week. Gary: Dave and Tom will resume their discussion on the topic of salvation next week, we hope you can tune in. This is Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Would you like to expand your knowledge of God’s Word? We offer a wide variety of items that will greatly assist you, from books and tracts to audio and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708. Call us at our toll free order number 877-882-4253, that’s 877-88Bible, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on tape or compact disc, ask for Program #4606, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. And now, if you would like to watch Dave and Tom, our weekly broadcast is available on DVD. Ask about a subscription when you contact us. You can also download both audio and video podcast at our website. If you receive television programming from Sky Angel, you will be able to view our video, In Defense of Israel, with former Israeli General Shimon Erem on November 25, starting at 9:00 PM eastern, we invite you to tune in. Get a pen or pencil ready, we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment. Next week, we will continue our series of programs based on Dave Hunt’s book, When Will Jesus Come? and, “Did Jesus teach the Rapture?” In Religion in the News, “Reading Bibles out to lunch,” we’ll take a look at that story and address the question: “Are psychologists witch doctors?” We hope you can join us. If you have questions or comments about this program we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily Radio Ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers, and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for joining and invite you to tune in again next week. In the meantime, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the scriptures daily. You’ve been listening to Search The Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. For more information about The Berean Call, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708. Call us toll free at our order number 877-882-4253, that’s 877-88Bible, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. Join us again next week for Search The Scriptures Daily, featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon.