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Search the Scriptures Daily Program #4706b Transcript follows: This is Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, answers to your questions in Contending for the Faith, and in Understanding the Scriptures, Dave and Tom will resume their conversation on God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program we publish a monthly newsletter, which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 877-882-4253, that’s 877-88Bible, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on tape or compact disc, ask for Program #4706, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. And now, if you would like to watch Dave and Tom, our weekly broadcast is available on DVD. Ask about a subscription when you contact us. You can also download both audio and video podcast at our website. If you receive television programming from Sky Angel, you will be able to view our video, In Defense of Israel with the former Israeli General Shimon Erem. On November 25th starting at 9:00pm eastern. We invite you to tune in. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. RELIGION IN THE NEWS Gary: Now, Religion in the News, a report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from cnsnews.com, with a headline: Maryland Schools Sued For Refusing To Let Girl Read Bible. The following are excerpts: A conservative civil liberties group has filed suit against a school in Greenbelt, Maryland, for violating the constitutional right of a 7th grader who was allegedly threatened with discipline for reading her Bible in school. The lawsuit was filed in US District Court for the District of Maryland against Dwight D. Eisenhower Middle School. Eighth grade Vice Principal Rainy and Principal Coleman, are among the defendants in the suit. According to the student’s mother, Mary Ann Mangum, Amber was reading her Bible after finishing her lunch when Rainy gave her a verbal warning to put the Bible away. Amber was told she was not allowed to read it and if it happened again, Amber would be punished, her mother said. She didn’t take the Bible back to school. The school district’s policy, along with the guidelines under the US Department of Education 2003, “No Child Left Behind Act” give students the right to read Bibles or other religious scriptures during lunch hour, recess or other non-instructional times. NCLVA, which is Federal law that came in under the Bush administration, actually has this provision stating that students have a right to read their Bible, or other religious scriptures during the school day. It provides for that. It says also that you can actually get your Federal funding taken away if you violate the NCLVA, John W. Whitehead, President and Founder of the Rutherford Institute, explained. But Ellen Johnson, President of American Atheists, said most of the time right wing groups that file lawsuits exaggerate what happened in school, and that is usually brought out later in the case. “What probably happened is this kid, I’ll bet you, was being disruptive. I’ll bet this kid was proselytizing with preaching, doing something that was annoying other kids and was told to stop. Kids don’t normally want to read the Bible at lunch time, I don’t care who they are. It’s just not something kids want to do,” said Johnson. Tom: Dave, this is a really interesting article for a number of reasons. Number one: A conservative civil liberties group filed suit against the school. That doesn’t usually happen. Dave: Tom, you wonder why they would have to file suit. You would think there would be enough for this girl, or her mother, to go to the principal with this law, this “No Child Left Behind” law in the NCLVA, which gives that right, and that would be the end of it. So, probably, maybe they did that, I don’t know. Tom: And got no satisfaction, could be. Dave: Yeah, so then this atheist, of course,---well, she is jumping to all kinds of conclusions. Tom: She certainly doesn’t understand, for a believer in the Bible why they would read it, even a middle school. Dave: “Kids don’t normally want to read the Bible at lunch time” but apparently she thinks they would rather preach. So, that’s what she said---Oh, it must have been preaching, must have been proselytizing. Well, if she doesn’t think they would read the Bible at lunch time, what makes her think they would proselytize or preach during lunch time. So, the lady is very confused, which she would have to be to imagine that this universe all happened by chance and that God doesn’t exist. But Tom, this is only symptomatic. It’s far worse, of course, because the schools are actively trying to undermine the student’s belief in God, evolution. Tom: Well, certainly the God of the Bible. You can bring all kinds of gods, Allah, because they are being instructed in Qur’an in many schools, no problem there. Dave: Now that’s incredible, anything goes except Jesus Christ, Jesus is a bad name. But Tom, we are trying to destroy the morals of our students in our schools by teaching them evolution. If we are just related to apes, or whatever, apes don’t have any morals, why should we have any. How do we pick up morals along the way? And if evolution can explain this universe, then you don’t need God. Without God, who is watching over you? I mean, this is why we have rebellion in school. Why should I obey my parents, or why should I obey the school authorities or the government? I mean, after all life is very short, let’s live like animals, just get everything you can, cheat and steal. Tom: Well, survival of the fittest. Dave: That’s exactly right. So, why should there be any rules at all? Of course the Bible says that God has ordained that there should be rules, and He has put government in charge to execute His righteousness. So Tom, it’s just incredible what’s going on, and this is scarcely the tip of the iceberg. Tom: Now Dave, one last point. This conservative liberties group is probably referring to John Whitehead’s group, the Rutherford Institute which gets involved in situations like this, and I don’t see them wanting to maintain their reputation, getting involved with something that, you know, this child was actually disrupting, you know, as the American atheist individual. That’s the complaint, so I would think they have a case, and well, it would be interesting to follow up on this and see what happened. Dave: Tom, I think it would be thrown out of court. I don’t see how the school district could even begin to defend. They would have to just say, We surrender. This teacher was, or vice principal, whatever it was, was violating the NCLVA. It’s a clear law, it gives the right to read your Bible, or other religious literature at lunch time or recess, or whatever. So, I’m surprised that it even got to the court. The school officials must not know the law, or they are being rather stubborn, or they don’t like the law, and they are going to try and do it their own way. Maybe they think they have some other laws, or some other basis for keeping the Bible, even on a lunch hour, out of their school. I don’t know, Tom, and I guess that will be interesting to see what happens. Gary: You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned.

Search the Scriptures Daily Program #4706c Transcript follows: . Now, Contending for the Faith. CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here is this week’s question: Dear Mr. Hunt and Mr. McMahon: I am very upset with your slandering the profession of Christian psychology. My therapist is a devout Christian who has given me wonderful counsel for many years. Then to hear you liken her profession to that which is performed by witch doctors is not only an insult but harmful to the mental welfare of those who have been greatly helped by Christian counselors. I believe you owe your listeners a major correction regarding your statements, and I hope you will do so as soon as possible. Tom: Well, Dave, I’m glad you’re wearing your referee’s shirt for this, because this lady--is she fouling us here, or are we fouling our listeners? Dave: Well, Tom, Christian psychology--to start there. It should come from the Bible. It should come from Christ. Christian psychology must have been taught by Jesus Christ. Tom: Well, if it’s truly Christian-- Dave: That’s right. Tom: Although we don’t like the term, “psychology” or “psychotherapy” added to it. Dave: Right, but if it were true, if there is such a thing as Christian psychology, then where has it been all these years? Nobody ever got it out of the Bible, I guarantee you. Nineteen hundred years of studying the Bible on their knees nobody got psychology out of the Bible! Even Bruce Narimore, nephew of Clyde Narimore, acknowledges that. He says, It was humanistic psychologist Carl Rogers and Abraham Maslow, who first made us aware of the need for self love and self esteem, and this is a good and proper emphasis. Okay, there you have it, nobody got that idea from the Bible. Where did it come from? A couple of godless, yes, very godless, new age type anti-Christian, secular psychologists. Tom: And if people are doubting what we are saying, just simply read the biographies of these men. Dave: Well Tom, so it didn’t come from the Bible, it came from really godless, anti-Christians. Well then, how did it become Christian? How did we put Christian label on there? To do that, you would have to say, Well, I guess the Bible needed some help. And now we are going to amalgamate this, we are going to integrate psychology with the Bible. Now Tom, that is an insult to God. It’s an insult to Jesus Christ. It’s an insult to the Bible. Peter, for example, 2 Peter 1, said: He has given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness. Paul said: I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, but it’s not I but Christ is living in me. He said, Christ is your life. Now, if Christ is my life, why does--Jesus Christ is my life--why does He need help from Freud or Jung who are anti-Christians to begin with? Furthermore, Tom, as you know, you can go to any university--you were just over there in Freud and Jung’s territory in Australia, and you can go to any library in the world, look up in any psychology textbook in the index, try to find a listing for Christian psychology. It does not exist, because there is no Christian who is the founder of a school of psychology known as Christian psychology, much less does it come from the Bible. You’ll find Freudian, Rogerian, behavioristic, transpersonal, all kind of psychologies, but Tom, it simply isn’t true. So, this lady has been deceived. Tom: Dave, two other points. Number One: What these men have taught, Freud, Jung, Maslow, Adler, and so on and so forth, or the humanistic psychologist, as you mentioned, Carl Rogers, Abraham Maslow, and so on, are diametrically opposed to what the Bible teaches. So how do you integrate things that are diametrically opposed to one another? You can’t do it, it’s impossible. Dave: I just quoted you Bruce Narimore, and he says, They gave us the idea. Now we went back to the Bible, and what do you know! We found it there. Tom, it’s a tragedy, because what it says is---let me say it the way I often say it to an audience. If Christian psychology has anything, anything of any value to offer anyone--well, it’s missing from the Bible. I guess the Bible is insufficient. That’s exactly what these men are teaching. The Bible says, Jesus said: If you continue in My Word, then are you my disciples indeed, and you will know THE truth, THE truth will set you free. He didn’t say, You’ll know part of the truth, you’ll be set partially free--THE truth will set you free. Tom, I have so many, not only promises in the Scripture, but I have examples of men who lived triumphant lives long before psychology came along! Tom: Now Dave, the other point that she makes--I assume it’s a woman because she says her therapist is a woman counselor--but anyway, the point that she makes is that we are slandering Christian psychology because we are saying that it’s very much similar to what a witch doctor does. But you didn’t make up that idea. This is what the researchers in psychotherapy tell us--That there is nothing, in terms of the way psychology, psychotherapy is presented, the way it is used, there’s no difference between a shaman or a witch doctor would do to his people. It moves along on the same basic plane. Dave: Well, they’re secular psychologists who have said that, Tom. I will rest upon the sufficiency of Scripture. The people who believe the Bible is inerrant, but they don’t believe it’s sufficient. I believe the Bible is sufficient for a Christian to live a triumphant, spirit filled, fruitful life for the Lord without any help from psychology, which Paul didn’t need, Jesus didn’t need it, none of the men and women of God who died for their faith in Hebrews 11 needed it. And it’s a delusion to turn from the Scripture and go to these sources. Gary: If you have a question for Dave and Tom to respond to in a future Contending for the Faith, stay with us, we’ll have our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.

Search the Scriptures Daily Program #4706d Transcript follows: . Now, our final segment. UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES We resume our excursion through the Book of Acts. Here again are Dave and Tom: Tom: This is our Understanding the Scriptures segment, we are in the Book of Acts, and Dave, we are coming right to Acts 17, which maybe within the next week of so we will get to our theme verse for the ministry, Acts 17:10 and 11. I like to add 10 because that has the term, Berea. Dave: Right. Tom: Okay, let me start by reading Acts Chapter 17:1: “Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scripture.” Well, first of all, Dave, I thought Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, what’s he doing going into the synagogue? And this was his manner--why would he do that? Dave: The gospel is to the Jew first, then to the Greek. As Paul himself said in Romans 1:16: “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth: to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” So, he was really obligated to take the message to the synagogue. Now, today you wouldn’t likely be welcome to the synagogue, but in those days Paul is traveling from a long distance, and he’s a Jew and here he is a visitor, and so, “Do you have anything to say, brethren, well say on, speak out.” So, he had that opportunity. Furthermore, when he got started he probably didn’t stop, didn’t let them interrupt. Tom: Now Dave, it says, “he reasoned with them out of the Scriptures.” Dave: Right. Tom: What’s going on here, they didn’t have the New Testament. Dave: Of course--well, let’s go to 1 Corinthians 15, where Paul says, This is the gospel that I preached unto you; how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures. So, he preached the gospel from the Old Testament, and Tom, I believe we should do the same, because there are hundreds of prophecies telling us how we would know who the Messiah was when He came. How else can you do it? I think that we need to give our young people especially, and older ones as well, a solid foundation. Give me a reason why you believe what you believe. Why is Jesus the Christ? So, Paul,--it says this was his modus operands, this is how he preached the gospel. He reasons with them out of the Scriptures, and he said, Look what your prophets--These are Hebrew prophets! How about Isaiah? “For unto us a child is born.” Well, that’s the babe born in Bethlehem. “Unto us a Son is given.” O, that must be the--wait a minute--does it say that God has a Son? Well, it does, Psalm 2: “Kiss the Son lest He be angry, and you perish from the way.” “Thou art my Son” Psalm 2 says. And how about Proverbs 30, Agur, the prophet is being quoted by Solomon, and he says: “Who created this universe” what is His name, and what is His Son’s name if thou canst tell”? How about that? O, the Creator of the universe has a Son! Well, what do you know! And then, if you went to Daniel, remember? Shadrach, Meshach and Abendego, thrown in this furnace, and Nebuchadnezzar is shocked, he said: “Didn’t we throw three men in there? There’s four of them walking in there walking around, and the fourth one looks like the Son of God! Okay, and when you get a little further into Isaiah 9:6: His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor--good reason we go to Jesus for counsel, not to some psychological counselor. His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God---wait a minute! This babe born in Bethlehem is The mighty God? It’s what the Hebrew prophets said. And then it gets even more amazing---The everlasting Father. So, when Jesus, born of a virgin as the Scriptures foretold, when Jesus said: I and my Father are One, that’s John 10, around Verse 30, 32 or whatever, the Jews took up stones to stone Him. And He said: I’ve done a lot of good deeds, for which of these good deeds do you stone me? They said: For a good deed we stone thee not, but because thou being a man maketh thyself out to be God. O, it’s a crime for the Messiah to say that He is God? Come on! That’s what the Scripture said, their own Scriptures. So, Jesus was not coming up with something new. So that’s what Paul is presenting to them. He’s opening, and then Verse 3, alleging, arguing that Christ must need to have suffered and risen again from the dead, and that this Jesus whom I preach unto you is Christ. Tom: The Messiah. Dave: Yeah, it’s all right there, guys in your own Scriptures. How can you deny it? Well, Tom, they couldn’t believe that the Messiah was God. Remember, they asked Jesus some tough questions, the Rabbis did, and He confounded them with His answers, like; Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar? Well, show me a coin, He says. Well, who’s image is that on there? Oh, that’s Caesar’s image. Well, you render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God. And that’s a good watch-word for today. Tom: Dave, can I interject this? Dave: Yeah. Tom: I was just in Switzerland, and I went to a place called, in the Latin, (Aventicum?) which was a Roman,--it was really a place where the Romans, who controlled all of Switzerland, had a city. And going through the museum, I got chills, really, because they had coins from this place. They had a gold coin, but then they also had a silver coin, which was a denarius, equivalent to a denarius, and there was an image so clear of Caesar, Caesar Augustus. I mean, it’s not that I wouldn’t believe anyway, but it was so exciting to see this coin with the image of Caesar Augustus. You know, it was the one that Jesus was referring to. Dave: Right, exactly, because the Bible is historic. This is not some myth made up, okay. So, Jesus was really the first one, you could say, who prescribed the separation of church and state. You give to God the things that are God, and you give to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and don’t mix it up. But Islam does the opposite! Islam establishes a caliphate, they want to do that all over the world, and it is a religious rule. There is no separation between church and state in Islam. Tom: Well, Dave, not only that, I just came from Austria, Germany and Switzerland, and I had to explain in the talks that I gave when I was referring to the Church, it’s not the state church. That’s what they think of over there, and after the demise of Christianity, in many ways, for all of Europe. Dave: Did you get to the synagogue in Vienna? Tom: I did. Dave: Saw the guards there? Tom: The guards weren’t there only because now they have the guards on the Sabbath when the Jews are present. I mean, there was one guy off to the side, but he tried to keep out of the way. Dave: He would be an Israeli. But when I was there, what? a couple of years ago, they had them 24 hours a day. I mean, these are guys with flack jackets, and so forth. Maybe they feel the threat has diminished a bit. But anyway, Tom, back to our passage here. Tom: Well, Dave, let me go back over Verse 3: “Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.” Dave: But Tom, you can understand that it was pretty hard for the Jews to believe. But we nailed this guy to a cross, they took him down and laid him in a tomb. Now you know that the disciples said that it was empty. And of course the Roman guards knew that, too, but they were bribed not to say so. How could some guy that comes to this earth, and he’s rejected, despised and he’s crucified, he couldn’t be the Messiah! So, Paul is dealing with that very thing; he says: He had to suffer these things. He wasn’t the Messiah if He didn’t get crucified because the prophets foretold He would be crucified. Even the verse that I quoted just a little while ago, where all Israel gets saved, you know, we were talking about the Rapture. It says: Zechariah 12:10, “They will look on me whom they have pierced.” Wait a minute! When did God get pierced? “And will mourn because of Him.” Jesus said, I and my Father--well, anyway, all through the Old Testament it says He’s going to be despised and rejected of man, Isaiah 53, He’s going to suffer for our sins, He’s going to die, Rise from the dead, and then they say, O, we couldn’t believe in a Messiah who got crucified. Well, that’s what Paul is dealing with, that this Jesus that I preached unto you, He must be the Messiah because He suffered the very things that the prophets foretold the Messiah would go through and that you thought would be impossible for a Messiah. And I believe that this is the way that we ought to preach the gospel today, as Paul did, from the Old Testament Scriptures. And it all agrees with the New Testament, but that’s the foundation of these prophecies that cannot be denied. Gary; Dave and Tom will resume their discussion on the topic of salvation next week, we hope you can tune in. This is Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Would you like to expand your knowledge of God’s Word? We offer a wide variety of items that will greatly assist you, from books and tracts to audio and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708. Call us at our toll free order number 877-882-4253, that’s 877-88Bible, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on tape or compact disc, ask for Program #4706, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. And now, if you would like to watch Dave and Tom, our weekly broadcast is available on DVD. Ask about a subscription when you contact us. You can also download both audio and video podcast at our website. If you receive television programming from Sky Angel, you will be able to view our video, In Defense of Israel, with former Israeli General Shimon Erem on November 25, starting at 9:00 PM eastern, we invite you to tune in. Get a pen or pencil ready, we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment. Next week, we will continue our series of programs based on Dave Hunt’s book, When Will Jesus Come? and, “Are you waiting, watching and looking?” In Religion in the News, “Are you a mentally ill conservative?” we’ll take a look at that story and address the question: “Can Christians be reincarnated?” We hope you can tune in. If you have questions or comments about this program we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily Radio Ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers, and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for joining and invite you to join us again next week. In the meantime, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the scriptures daily. You’ve been listening to Search The Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. For more information about The Berean Call, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708. Call us toll free at our order number 877-882-4253, that’s 877-88Bible, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org.

Search the Scriptures Daily Program #4706a Transcript follows: Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for joining us. Coming up in the next hour in our Understanding the Scripture segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and, “Why did Paul go into Synagogues?” In Religion in the News, “Reading Bibles out to lunch.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Are psychologists witch doctors?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video tapes and copies of our weekly broadcast on tape or compact disk. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s cover article. We continue our series of programs based on Dave Hunt’s book, When Will Jesus Come? This week we address the topic: “Did Jesus teach the Rapture?” Along with Dave Hunt, here is T. A. McMahon. Tom: Thanks, Gary. You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. This is the feature article segment of our program, our topic is and has been Dave Hunt’s book, When Will Jesus Come? subtitled: Compelling Evidence For The Soon Return Of Christ. And, Dave, before I get into what we’re going to discuss in this segment, I have to let our listeners, in particular, in on something. They may not know that we not only are recording this for radio and for the internet and also we’re broadcasting this for short-wave radio throughout the world, so our listeners are missing out on something, Dave. Our producer, Gary Carmichael, told us at the beginning that we both had perfect faces for radio, right? Dave: Right. Absolutely. Tom: But now we’re on video as well for podcasting and now some people get to see what we actually do look like. And, we’ve got a problem, right? The problem is now we have to come in presentable with regard to the clothes that we’re wearing, etc. And for those in radio I just want to describe what you’re wearing. Dave, it looks like you’re either representing a prison ministry because you’re wearing black and white stripes on your shirt, or you’re a former NBA referee, I can’t figure out which one. Dave: Well, this is a referee shirt, but I was told that we needed a referee in here, in case we get into a quarrel, but then it really wouldn’t be fair if I’m the referee, so, but I didn’t realize that, so, but, here I am and I couldn’t go home, time is of the essence, so, we’ll carry on. Tom: Yeah. But if you do want to make some referee’s calls during this, feel free, but don’t use your whistle. Dave: No, I will not use my whistle. Tom: OK. Well, if you have a copy of Dave’s book, When Will Jesus Come? and you want to follow along with our discussion, we’re about to begin chapter 18, titled “Timing Factors.” But, Dave, before we get to that, as you do know, one common complaint against the Rapture is that it’s a doctrine, so-called, invented in the 1800’s. But, you point out that it was Jesus who was the chief promoter of the doctrine and, but in what way? Dave: Well, Jesus did say He was going away to His Father’s house. That must be in heaven where He came from, going back where He came from, and He was going to prepare a place for His disciples, and that would include us, and He said, I will come again and receive you unto myself. Now, I don’t know how He could do that without catching people off of this earth and taking them to heaven. So, that’s Number One. Paul is obviously referring to this when in 1 Thessalonians, he said, The Lord himself, so that’s Christ coming back like He said, I will come again. The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, the dead in Christ will rise first. Paul is writing this because some of these Christian Thessalonians had died, and their survivors said, Well, I guess they don’t get to go to heaven. So he said, Comfort yourself with these words. So, he was letting them know that even those who had died in Christ, their souls and spirits were with Him in heaven. He would bring the souls and spirits with Him and resurrect their bodies to reunite them with a new body, and then, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. Now I don’t know what better explanation could be given of Christ’s promise in John 14. And for these people to say, Well, there’s nothing about the Rapture in the Bible, I don’t know what Bible they have been reading. Tom: And some of the examples they give for this not being biblical they say, ---------Darby, back in the what? wouldn’t that be the early eighteen hundreds? Dave: Early eighteen hundred, right. Tom: And then they also claim that it was started by a Jesuit priest. Dave: Right. Tom: Now that’s a surprise to me, because the Catholic church doesn’t believe in the Rapture. Dave: Well, I guess they did that just to deceive us, I don’t know, but they even have a, supposed, documentation, but it’s not true. Darby supposedly got it from this young girl, teenager, speaking in tongues. But it isn’t true, and Tom, there is plenty of documentation of people in the church believing it, all the way back to the 300’s, 400’s, and furthermore, I did not get this from Darby or some Jesuit, or from anyone else. Of course, I was taught it as a boy as I grew up, but it was taught to me out of the Bible, not out of some books that people have written, and I could see for myself in the Bible, there it is! How is Christ going to get His own from earth to heaven? Now, the people who deny the Rapture, they are expecting Christ to come and rule over the kingdom they have established. There are a lot of people who think Christians ought to take over this world, take over politics, take over the schools, and so forth, and when we have established the kingdom, then Christ will return to rule over the kingdom we have established. Now, that is a great delusion because Jesus Christ is not going to come to this earth to set up His kingdom until He has taken us, first of all, to heaven. And I don’t know how He could get us to heaven without a Rapture unless you want to die. But how are you going to take live people up there? So Paul says: Behold, I show you a mystery, this is 1 Corinthians 15, we shall not all sleep, that is, our bodies won’t all be asleep in the grave, but we shall all be changed. In a moment, the twinkling of an eye the trumpet shall sound, the Lord shall be descended, the dead shall be raised, and we will be changed. Okay. Now, how is Christ going to get us to heaven? These people believe in heaven, therefore Jesus came for them. He said, I am come from my Father, and I return to my Father, my Father’s house of many mansions. I’m going back up there, and I will come again and receive you to myself. Now, how could that happen except by a Rapture? A Rapture is simply catching people up from this earth, these are living people, and the dead will be raised. Okay. So, I don’t know how else that could happen. And there is the Judgment Seat of Christ. There’s a marriage, in Revelation 19, in heaven, and then Christ returns with His Bride. And I think we’ve probably mentioned it on this program before, but Zechariah Chapter 14, clearly says: When His feet touch the Mount of Olives, He brings all the saints from heaven with Him. Okay. So, I don’t know what the complaint is by these people who reject the Rapture, or what Bible they are reading, or how they think we’re going to get to earth from heaven. Now, apparently, some of them at least, they believe everything is going to be on this earth, that Christ is going to establish His kingdom on this earth. Yes, of course He is, He will rule on the throne of His father David over the children of Israel, and over the world from Jerusalem. But we’re not Jews, we’re not in that particular kingdom. So, what does heaven have to do with this? And In Revelation 21, we see the heavenly Jerusalem descending from God out of heaven and a bride adorned for her husband. Now, how does a bride come down from heaven if she hasn’t been taken up there? I don’t know. Anyway Tom, I am belaboring the point. Tom: It’s important information, Dave. Dave: I don’t know how anyone could deny this unless they think, Well, we never go to heaven. But what are you going to do with the people who died, Christians who died? Well, they have to be resurrected. Just to come back to this earth? They are going to have new bodies, they are going to rule and reign with Him a thousand years, the Scripture says. So, I don’t understand what the problem is. Furthermore, Tom, some of these people say, Well, if you believe in a pre-trib Rapture, what are you going to do supposing the Antichrist does come first, and he pretends to be Christ? You will be deceived because you’re saying, Oh, no, Antichrist couldn’t come. It’s going to have to be Christ. Antichrist only comes after Christ so you would be deceived. Tom, there’s a very simple answer, and furthermore, the Rapture is the only answer to this. How could I not be deceived---I mean, if this guy is such a deceiver, he can do signs and wonders, he has all the power of Satan with all the lying signs and wonders, deceivableness, and so forth. Well, and those who receive not the love of the truth, but I have received the love of the truth. But anyway, look, if the true Christ, as the Bible says is going to catch us up and we will meet Him in the air, He doesn’t even come to this earth and you’ve got some guy walking around this earth, he doesn’t have the marks of Calvary, he hasn’t been resurrected from the dead, and anyway, that’s beside the point, he’s on this earth and he claims that he is establishing a kingdom on this earth, and he doesn’t catch me up to meet him in the air! The guy is a phony, and in fact, I’m not even here because I’ve already been caught up. Tom: Dave, one final point along this line. You talk about a secret Rapture. First of all, why does it have to be secret? And, you know, that unnerves some people---So, what is this? some kind of a cult or esoteric teaching---what do you mean by secret rapture? Dave: Well, it was rather a secret resurrection actually. He appeared to over 500 brethren, these are all believers that He appeared to. I don’t have any record that He appeared to any unbelievers. So, why didn’t He appear to everybody? Why didn’t He let everybody know about this resurrection? They wouldn’t have believed it anyway. They would have tried to crucify Him again. This is something for His own. Okay. We know that when He shall appear, John says, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. Now who is this “we”? Well, it says, everyone who has this hope in Him, we will see His appearing. The ungodly don’t have such a hope. Okay. Hebrews 9:28, says: Unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation. That’s pretty clear. You’re not looking for Him---Now I don’t believe, Tom, that unless you’re standing out there scanning the sky at the moment that He returns, that He doesn’t catch you up, because it clearly says: The dead in Christ shall rise first---they don’t even have the opportunity to be looking for Him, the dead in Christ. So, everybody who died with faith in Christ is going to be resurrected. Well, then those of us who are alive and remain--Okay, that would be all the other Christians. In other words, we’re talking about Christians now. Some Christians died already, the rest of the Christians haven’t died. Okay, so they are caught up together with them, too. So, what does it mean: Unto them that look for Him? Well, a Christian, that’s all it means. We should be looking for Him, you know, that should be the attitude of every Christian. Now, how imminent they think this is, or whether they are involved in all kinds of other things and the Rapture, tragically, would interrupt their plans. I think it would do that for a lot of people today, they don’t really want Christ to come back yet. The stock market is about to hit 12,000, you know, and my 401K is doing great, and I’ve got money in the bank, and besides that we are planning a vacation to Hawaii, and so forth. Tom, I’m not being facetious, this is the truth. For most Christians the last thing they are expecting is the Rapture. Tom: This is what the Scripture says regarding that event. Dave: But whether they are expecting Him or not, they at least have a belief that they are going to see Christ again. He said, I will come again. All right, anybody that believes that Jesus Christ came to this earth, paid the penalty for our sins, died for our sins on the cross and rose again and went off to His Father’s house, they must believe He said, I will come again. Where is He going to come from? He’s going to come from His Father’s house, and He said He would take us up there. Tom, I don’t want to belabor it but I couldn’t possibly be deceived by some guy who walks around on this earth, has everybody take a mark, and so forth, and then puts his image in the Temple. And you’ve got to bow down and worship it, and you’ve got to worship him as God when my Bible clearly says that the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout--voice of the archangel, the trump of God, the dead in Christ will rise first, and we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. Okay. Secret Rapture? I don’t believe anyone on this earth except Christians will know this has happened. Now people speculate: Well, our false teeth will fall out, or my artificial hips will be left---I don’t think so! He’s going to transform my body, the best parts of my body that I have, I don’t know what they are. You get a little older, you know, and things begin to fail, they wear out. But anyway, every bit of my body is going to have to be transformed. He will transform those artificial hips, too, they’re not going to be left behind. People speculate: Well, their clothes will be left behind, and they’ll know something, you know--that will tip them off, must have been the Rapture, that couldn’t have been a secret. I don’t think clothes will be left behind. I think everything is gone and nobody on this earth is a witness to this event. The only thing they know is that there’s maybe a hundred million people have suddenly vanished, and that would terrify this world, as we have mentioned in the past, in a way we couldn’t even imagine. Tom: Well, Dave, 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2, you know, it says, Those who have not a love for the truth, God Himself will be sent strong delusions that they believe the lie. So nobody is going to believe what the Bible says, or even if things that have been left behind, in which those who have never had an opportunity to receive the gospel, they may be affected by things that are left behind, but certainly not the world in general. Dave: Tom, I often say, when I am speaking in a church, You know, if the Rapture happened right now, and you’re left behind, you could be the only one left in this room, and you could know the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, you could have read, The Late Great Planet Earth, twenty times, or whatever--- Tom: Or the Left Behind series. Dave: Right, how about my book, When Will Jesus Come? How Close Are We? It wouldn’t matter if you have rejected the Truth, there is no way that anyone could get you to believe that was the Rapture, you will receive a strong delusion from God to believe the lie. That’s urgent, therefore, for people to come to Christ now, especially those of you out there who have heard this, you know it’s true, but you just delayed--you know--well, maybe tomorrow, maybe tomorrow. There’s a hymn, I don’t think I’ve ever quoted it on this program, if I can remember it. It’s talking about being in time: “Life at best is very brief, Like the falling of a leaf, Like the binding of a sheaf, Be in time. Fleeting days are telling fast, That the die will soon be cast, And the fatal line be passed, Be in time.” And I won’t go through the whole thing, but it ends something like: Your cry will be too late, too late. You won’t even know that it’s too late. There are all kinds of explanations: Remember, “Beam me up Scotty”--UFO’s took up the space brothers, and we’ve talked to New Agers--Those who haven’t done their yoga, they are not spiritually prepared when the world is transformed into mankind into homo--------, you haven’t been doing your yoga, and so forth, you will be instantly removed to non-physical dimension. I don’t know what they all will be, but Tom, I do believe, as you mentioned, that those who have not refused the love of the truth, they haven’t heard the gospel, and I don’t know whether that includes most Catholics, who don’t really know about the Rapture. I mean, they don’t really know the true gospel. Tom: Right. Dave: All they know is, you take this wafer and ingest Jesus into your stomach. Of course, heathens off in the jungles never heard. Tom, I’m not giving them too much hope either, because the Scripture says that this universe tells us of God. Tom: Right. Dave: And that He has written His laws in our hearts. You could be out there in the jungle, you never heard the gospel, but you have rejected the God that created you, whose glory is clearly seen in the things around you; you’ve rejected His voice in your conscience; you’ve made idols out of gold and silver and so forth, whatever you had at hand--wood or stone. I’m not so sure that these people themselves have not rejected the truth. I don’t know who will not have rejected the truth, and who will then be able to believe the gospel. However, the Bible indicates many will during the Great Tribulation and they will be martyred for their faith. They will refuse to bow down to the image and worship the beast and they will be martyred. Tom: And those who somehow survive, who are not martyred, they are going to be the ones who populate the earth during the thousand year reign of Christ, whether some Gentiles as well as Jews. Dave: I’m not sure how many survivors there will be at the time Christ returns among those who believed under the Antichrist and were not killed. Because he’s got GPS, he’s got everything, he’s going after everybody everywhere the Bible indicates, but I believe there will be a great multitude---Of course, we know all Israel will be saved, that’s the one-third of the Jews who are left alive, they will all be saved. They will be saved when they see Him. They will look on Me whom they have pierced, God says, and they will mourn because of Him. Obviously “Me” and “Him” are two persons, but they must be One, because they were mourning for Him because I have been pierced, God says. So anyway, I believe there will be many Gentiles who never heard the gospel, they didn’t even hear it, perhaps during the Great Tribulation, they will believe when they see Christ. And they will be the ones who will continue on in this earth. They don’t get resurrected because they haven’t died. Tom: Dave, Chapter 18, of your book, which we are going to get to next week---we’re just about out of time. Dave: Now, Tom, you promised, today we would get to that, and we didn’t keep our promise. We’re going to lose any confidence these people have in what we say. Tom: Now, Dave, is that a referee’s call? Are you blaming it on me? Dave: That’s right. Tom: Okay. Dave: Well, we will really get into it next week. Tom: Yes, we will, or we have to sit in the penalty box, for you hockey fans out there. Chapter 18, of your book is titled: “Timing Factors” and there are issues related to timing. Many things had to take place, and the question is--- Dave: Not for the Rapture, but for the Second Coming. Tom: Well, that’s the question, because you seem to imply that there is a relationship between certain things that take place. Dave: We’ll come back and talk about that next week.