archives
Gary:
You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Now our final segment:
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
We return once again to 2000 with Dave and Tom:
Tom:
This portion of our program is dedicated to Understanding the Scriptures, especially the major doctrines taught in the Bible. And that’s not only for our sake that we might all grow in the faith which was once delivered to the saints, but also that we might be able to explain and clearly share our faith with others. Today we are continuing our study of the first book of the Bible, Genesis, which holds the key to some very critical questions about the Christian faith, the foremost being, why did God have to become a man and go to the cross to die for the sins of mankind. What problem could have caused such a staggering event? Well, the answer is found in the very first book of the Bible, so if you’re not familiar with what it says, we hope we can be an encouragement to you to search these particular scriptures with us. In verse 17 of Genesis 2, God presented a condition to Adam and Eve telling them that if they ate the fruit of a certain tree in the Garden of Eden, the penalty for their disobedience would be death, spiritual death, which meant spiritual separation from God forever and physical death which would begin to take affect in their bodies. Sometime after that Satan tempted Eve with lies; her response as well as her husband’s is found in Genesis chapter 3:6, she disobeyed God and so did Adam. Dave, we’re going to pick up with verse 8. “And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.” They sinned; there would be consequences, certainly reactions that they would have never considered prior to sin in their life.
Dave:
Well Tom, you know, some people think, wait a minute, come on, what is this, some kind of a myth, this tree and this talking serpent and so forth is some allegory, or just a fable to illustrate something? No, it actually happened, Genesis is the foundation of the Bible. And it was, as we have said in the past, just to remind our listeners out there, it’s the simplest command God could have given. That’s why it was a tree because they had an abundance of trees and why would they have to eat of this tree? I don’t think it was anything special, I don’t think it had a different kind of fruit than any other tree had. It could have been an apple tree, peach, pear, whatever, I’m sure that they had many other trees with the same kind of fruit. It wasn’t that there was some power in the fruit; it was the act of disobedience, that’s the problem. So He gave them the simplest command and they didn’t obey it, they rebelled, they tried to be little gods themselves, to run their own lives, and that’s the problem that we have in the world today. Now suddenly—
Tom:
Things changed, big time!
Dave:
Yeah, suddenly they are separated from God. They are guilty; they realize they have done wrong. It’s like a little child that’s been stealing cookies while Mommy has been at the store. When she comes back and finds out—uuhhoo you’ve got jam on your mouth, or whatever, you know. So it’s a reaction that has repeated itself all down through history. But this is between the first man and his wife and God, and this is where the separation began, this is why the Bible tells us. There’s a barrier now, and from this point on between God and man there is a chasm, a separation, and it can’t be taken care of just by, okay, that’s all right, pat us on the head, and tell me you’re sorry.
Tom:
It’s not going to work here.
Dave:
Tell me you’re sorry, and then we’ll start over again. No, God is a God of perfect justice. It’s just like the inexorable laws of the universe, laws of gravity. You jump out of a plane and say, Well, Granny says that there is a law of gravity, but I mean, birds can fly, why can’t I? No, there is! This is a moral law and we violated it, we are rebels, we’ve rebelled against God, I mean rebelled against God! That is so unthinkable, it is so horrible!
Tom:
Dave, I want to get on these scriptures, but there’s a thought that I’m sure some people may be troubled some. God is love, God is certainly just, but He is also merciful. Why couldn’t mercy have come into play here? I mean it does, but I’m talking about in terms of sort of smoothing over their sins.
Dave:
Well, there is mercy. You get it in Psalm 85:10, “Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.” There is no peace without righteousness, and there’s no real mercy without truth. Mercy over what? You know, a lot of parents say don’t tell me what my child has done, don’t tell me that they’re into drugs or into that; I just want to forgive them. No, I have to face the consequences, and then mercy. Mercy rejoices in judgments, mercy must be merciful about something because of something. And if it’s just so simple that God can just say, Well, that’s okay, no problem. No, God made a statement, He said, “You eat of this tree and the day you eat of it you will die.” Now, death came, God can’t go back on His Word. The problem now is how are we going to bring life out of death? I can’t go back and say, Well I’m sorry I said that, you know God says, well I made a mistake; I shouldn’t have really made the consequences so severe. No, the consequences are because of who God is, because of His character, and because of the very nature of the universe that He has made and the relationship that man must have with Him. It’s that basic, and now death has entered the human race. Now we going to have to somehow bring life out of death, a new race out of this old race, how will that happen? That’s what the rest of the Bible is about.
Tom:
And if we’re not understanding that, if we are not taking heed believing this first book of the Bible, I don’t know how you could put together the rest of it, which is why we are going through Genesis.
Dave:
Then we become the authors of scripture and we decide what is true and what is not, and what we like, and we will accept that part of it. No, you have to take it as a package, and we’ve mentioned that before.
Tom:
Picking up with Genesis 3:9: Again, we are looking at the consequences of the first sin committed by mankind. “And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, “Where art thou?” Now, that’s curious, God knew where they were, so this was for them, not for Him.
Dave:
And—where are you? You’re hiding. Why? What’s the problem, Adam? Tell me about it, and we have to confess our sins, we’ve got to admit what went wrong and why.
Tom:
And, picking up with verse 10: “And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.” Here are two reactions that have never taken place in Adam’s heart with regard to God prior to sin. Fear, recognizing—I mean he was always naked, why now is this the problem?
Dave:
Well, it goes beyond physical nakedness, the scripture says, “all things are naked and opened before the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.”
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
Thou God seeth me, God knows everything about me, He can look right into my heart. But there would be no concern about that if there wasn’t something wrong in my heart.
Tom:
Never happened before, he was always in that state, God saw his heart. But everything he did up to that point pleased God.
Dave:
Right, Now Adam recognizes that there is something wrong.
Tom:
Verse 11: “And he said, (that is, God) who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?” Dave, we’re just about out of time, but it’s interesting that God gives questions here that He already knows the answers to, why is that?
Dave:
Because we have to admit it. He knows everything about it, I mean, of course in the very question He’s letting Adam know that he knows. He’s eliciting a response from Adam, a confession, acknowledgment of his sin.
Tom:
Dave, we’re just about out of time. What we want to do as we continue to go through these scriptures in Genesis is identify, not just the problem, but the consequences of the problem at the beginning, because if we don’t, as we said, I know we are repeating ourselves here, but if we don’t understand the problems and the solutions—
Dave:
Absolutely!
Tom:
Absolutely incredible solution that God brings is not going to make sense to us, and even if we have an idea of it, we want to understand it well enough that we can explain and share it with others that they might know the love of God, what He’s done, and that they might respond to it.
Dave:
Amen.
Gary:
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. And now, to tell you more about our ministry here is TBC Executive Director Tom McMahon”
Tom:
The name, The Berean Call, is taken from the Book of Acts Chapter 17, Verses 10 and 11, where we find the apostle Paul entering the synagogue in the Greek City of Berea after he had just come from Thessalonica. To these Bereans he preached that Jesus was the long awaited Messiah sent from God. They were commended for being noble, or fair minded, not only for their willingness to hear what Paul had to say about the matter, but more specifically because they search the scriptures daily to find out whether or not what the apostle was saying was found in God’s Word. That’s what we hope to encourage through this ministry. Our mission is to alert believers in Christ to unbiblical teachings and practices impacting the church. We want to exhort believers to give greater heed to biblical discernment and truth regarding what they are accepting as spiritual. Our prayer is that we can be used of God to stimulate Christians to look to the Bible alone as their rule of faith, authority, and practice in living lives pleasing to our Lord and Savior.
Gary:
In addition to this radio program we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of today’s broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #2509, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. Get a pen or pencil ready; we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment.
Next week, we will continue our revisit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith, and What is the importance of prophesy? In Religion in the News: “Is Yoga for the body or the mind?” We’ll take a look at that story and address the question: “Have we found another contradiction in the Bible?” We hope you can join us. If you have questions or comments about this program, we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Radio Ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom, and everyone here at The Berean Call I would like to thank you for tuning in and invite you to join us next week. In the meantime, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the scriptures daily. For more information about The Berean Call contact us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000, and
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and Tom, I live in a Catholic neighborhood and a couple of my friends were discussing the Vatican’s recent release of the Third Secret of Fatima. They explained that the Virgin Mary appeared to three children near the City of Fatima in Portugal in 1917, and gave them information they were to keep secret until she told them to communicate it to others. My Catholic friends told me that the Miracles of Fatima and the accuracy of the prophecies by apparition of Mary are overwhelming proof that all of it is of God. It seems doubtful but I was at a loss as to how to respond, what are your thoughts?
Tom:
Dave, there are a number of aspects that we could address, but we don’t have time to cover everything. But the first question, one we have to ask about is this apparition that appeared to these three children at Fatima in Portugal. Number one is this apparition, who she claims to be, is it the Mary of the Bible? Well, that can be taken care of very simply. There are 90 verses in the scriptures that deal with Mary. You compare those scriptures with what the apparitions claim, and say, and proclaim and it’s not the same. Contrary Mary, as someone said.
Dave:
First of all, she said many souls perish and go to hell because there is no one to make sacrifice for them. She promises that she will save souls.
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
No, the sacrifice was made by Christ upon the cross, and this Mary as Mary in the other apparitions, always stands in the way. God is about to pour out His judgment, or Jesus in fact is going to pour out His judgment and she is going to prevent it. I’m sorry, I interrupted you.
Tom:
No, but you just gave an example of what I’ve been referring to. The reparations are to be made to her immaculate heart—two problems there. No reparations are needed, Christ paid the full penalty for all sins and we have a problem with her immaculate heart. Mary cried out, check it out in the Book of Luke, she rejoiced in God her Savior. So, this is not the Mary of the Bible.
Dave:
And furthermore, reparations are not made to a person, sin is against God, it’s not against Mary. They don’t need to make reparations to Mary and the Mary of the Bible would never ask this and it’s not biblical.
Tom:
Dave, one of the reasons that the church became convinced that this apparition was indeed the “Blessed Virgin Mary” had to do with a manifestation that took place, what they called “the dancing of the sun.” There were 70,000 people that witnessed that and after that the church became convinced that this was indeed of God. But this was not the sun dancing, this was a local event and no astronomer in history—oh, by the way, this occurs in other places where there are apparitions, in the Philippines, in Texas and other places where an apparition has appeared. But never has an astronomer said this is a physical event that took place and we can document it through our observation.
Dave:
It certainly not observable by others, so it’s some kind of phenomenon and if the Antichrist can make fire come from heaven and so forth—
Tom:
Which the scriptures say he will.
Dave:
Right, then this could be done, but Tom, I would think that they would be embarrassed to release the text of this because as you go through it, let me just read it a little bit very quickly: “To save souls God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my immaculate heart.” Now wait a minute, that’s not how souls get saved, but they are saved because Christ died for their sins. And many souls, if you do as I say, this apparition says, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. God is about to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, famine, persecutions and so forth, but if my requests are heeded Russia will be converted and there will be peace.
Tom:
Now that’s converted to Catholicism, not just in giving up Communism.
Dave:
Right, but Tom, but where in the world does it ever say that doing Mary’s will is the secret to converting anybody? Never is that in the scriptures. And then there’s an image, there’s an apparition and an angel with flaming sword is flashing, he’s about to bring judgment upon this earth. All this judgment, the fire from the angel’s sword dies out in contact with the splendor of our lady that was radiated. Wait a minute, so Mary getting the credit for everything. Then it goes on and talks about the bishop dressed in white—he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him. He wasn’t killed—and you’ve got a big massacre here that never happened, you know, so how could you say that was the prophecy of that? And then there the angels are gathering up the blood of the martyrs and they are sprinkling on the souls of people as though it’s the blood of martyrs that saves them? No, it’s the blood of Jesus Christ. So it’s absolutely unbiblical, it’s contrary to the Word of God, it is diminishing the importance of Christ and setting up this Mary. I would think the Catholic Church would be embarrassed by this.
Tom:
Well, Dave, this third secret which we are referring to was supposed to have been released in 1960. The problem here is that it wasn’t released until recently because most prophecies, the seers, the saints so called, of Catholicism have had visions about the end times and what would happen to the church. It involves apostasy from within; it involves destruction of the church. Certainly, in 1960, just previous to Vatican II, that pope decided not to present that information because of what he wanted to see happen through Vatican II.
Dave:
However you spell it out Tom—it’s unbiblical I think they would be embarrassed. It elevates Mary above Jesus, she becomes the Savior of the world, she stops God’s judgment, and you have to make reparations to her. It just simply isn’t biblical, it isn’t true, it’s not true to the character of Mary nor to the character of God, nor the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
Gary:
You’re listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead in this revisit to our 2000 series, Religion in the News, plus answers to your questions in Contending for the Faith, and in Understanding the Scriptures, Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book, and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk ask for Program #2509, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. Now back to our special revisit to the year 2000. Now:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from The Detroit Free Press with a headline: Breakfast Bibles. General Mills has apologized for packing CD ROM versions of the New International Version of the scriptures along with computer game inside 12 million boxes of Cheerios, Cheks and Cinnamon Toast Crunch. The NIV is the most popular version among evangelicals. It is the company’s policy not to advance any particular set of religious beliefs, Minneapolis based General Mills said in a statement. Inclusion of this material does not conform to our policy and we apologize for the lapse. But the apology came too late, the boxes of cereal with the CD ROMS are headed for grocery shelves across the country and will be distributed through August. Giving away Bibles on CD-ROMs that also include computer games and dictionaries is a $10 million marketing idea that soured. General Mills’ partners in the promotions spent a year working on a strategy to include the Bible in the cereal boxes without causing controversy. There is no mention on the outside of the boxes that the Bible is on the CD ROM, the Detroit Free Press reported. General Mills says it didn’t know the Bible had been put on CD-ROM’s and that it was slipped in without our knowledge, the company said in a statement. That is a flat out lie, Gregory Swan of Rhino Soft Interactive, a Wisconsin firm that helped create the CD-ROM’s told the news. General Mills got spooked with the idea of the Bible in their boxes, Phyllis Tickle, and editor at Publishers Weekly, told the free press. There would have been some controversy, she said, but this probably would have been a very popular idea. Swan, an evangelical Christian, developed the idea of marketing the Bible as part of a reference library for computers including a dictionary, thesaurus and encyclopedia. He said his company thought the cereal box idea was going to be very popular with millions of Christians. Controversy arose in March when Disney Interactive, whose computer version of the television game show, Who Wants to be a Millionaire, is included on the CD-ROMs told Swan that the Bible was too controversial and demanded it be taken off the millionaire CD ROMs. That held up production, software developer Ken Patterson told the Free Press.
Tom:
Well Dave, you know, this is interesting because on the one hand they got into this because they thought it would be a very popular idea, something that would particularly impress, you know, millions of Christians, but then they got cold feet.
Dave:
Supposedly, the world’s number one best seller.
Tom:
Right, but then they walked in fear of the controversy it would create.
Dave:
Well Tom, you are catching me off guard here, I don’t really know how to respond to this. Personally, I wouldn’t have put a Bible in there knowing that some people would be offended. Now I don’t think we can push God on anybody, in fact God doesn’t push himself on anybody. On the other hand, why should the Bible be so controversial? There are all kinds of books out there, people can read anything they want, if you don’t want it throw the CD away.
Tom:
Yeah, just like a toy, or something, well you get CD-ROM’s in the mail all the time trying to get you on the internet or online with America Online or whoever.
Dave:
But the Bible is controversial because if we are going to be honest about the Bible, it says all other religions are false, okay, and they don’t want that. So you can come out with any idea and the liberals are very liberal about everything except anything that challenges their liberalism, they will not allow that. It just affects the day in which we live, and the ideas that people have and what we were talking about earlier. Everybody wants to go their own way, but one way they don’t want to go is to believe that there is a God who created them who had some definite ideas, some definite morals for them, and the Bible makes that very clear, and they don’t like that.
Tom:
You know, Dave, with the interest in computers, you know I have Bible software and I think it’s absolutely tremendous, not only can I find what I want quicker, can I check it against, you know we’ve said over and over again here, if you’re going to search the scriptures make sure that scripture interprets scripture, and these are certainly vehicles that help that. On the one hand, you know you said earlier I think that we are finding scriptural illiteracy out there. Who is going to use these things, I mean they are free but who would use them?
Dave:
Well, hopefully it would eliminate, or at least help to mitigate, reduce the amount of biblical illiteracy. People don’t read very much anymore, although books do sell but we’re becoming illiterate in a lot of ways. God gave us His Word, in words, it’s written in a Book and it’s to be read. And Tom, I guess I could offend people I don’t want to get off on something else, but sometimes as I see some of these films that have been made, supposedly to depict the life of Jesus, and we’ve got inadequate actors, special effects trying to improve the Bible, you know, what’s wrong with the Word of God? He speaks to us in His Words and we need to get back and meditate upon the Word of God and search the scriptures daily, that’s what this program is all about, unfortunately, everybody doesn’t want to do that. I don’t think you can force it upon them; you might have been able to encourage them in a cereal box.
Tom:
That’s not too coercive, the idea of a finding, it doesn’t take much to offend people.
Dave:
That’s true, Tom, and yet nobody seems to be offended about offending God, nobody seems to be offended about the fact that this whole world is just going on merrily its way, making it’s own plans without even thinking about God, that offends me highly. People have their own ideas of what they want to be offended about I guess.
Tom:
Dave, you know one of the things that I’m finding, I was just going through a Christian magazine the other day and they are talking about sort of a resurgence in the popularity of Christianity, not just Tim LaHaye’s books but now there are films that are out there, then the cross over films, and so on. Does that worry you? You know on the one hand we want to encourage people to get into God’s Word and so on, so we would like it to be popular but at the same time when things get popular somehow they go sour or go South very quickly.
Dave:
I used to travel a bit, not a great deal, but we had the privilege to taking Bibles and things behind the Iron Curtain, and I can remember the Soviet citizens back then, I mean the Christians, asking, Why is Christianity so popular in America? And we’re being persecuted for it over here? I was speaking to Robert Anderson the other day and one of the things he said was the majority is usually right in most things, but when it comes to religion everybody wants something and religion is the one place where that rule doesn’t work. You can almost count on it, it’s wrong and I hate to see that happening with Christianity because Jesus was not popular.
Welcome to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for tuning in. Coming up in this week’s program in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation and “ Who told us we were naked?” In Religion in the News, “Toast with a testament.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “What is the third secret of Fatima?” We hope you can stay tuned. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s Cover Article. We continue our revisit to our 2000 radio series based on Dave Hunt’s book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith. Today we focus on the question, “What should we expect in a book from God?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s Tom McMahon:
Tom:
Thanks Gary. Dave Hunt’s book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith, which we are discussing, has more than a few thought provoking contentions related to religious beliefs. One in particular which got my attention and I’m sure many others, stated, “The belief of so many, particularly in the area of religion, has no factual foundation. The beliefs of many religious people are little more than sanctified superstitions.” Now Dave, I would think that for many of our listeners just putting religious belief and factual foundation in the same sentence would be rather startling. Faith and facts are not usually regarded as compatible.
Dave:
Well, they have to be, Tom. Of course we have discussed this a number of times from different angles I guess, but just logically what is your religion going to be—your so called religious faith? Why? Well, I just got it, I was raised that way, I was born a Methodist, I’ll die a Methodist, I was born a Hindu, and I will die a Hindu. That doesn’t make sense. Is there some factual basis, does God really exist, does He have any standards, has He been able to communicate these to men, can we know? You’ve got your so called biblical scholars; they are talking about reinventing Christianity. What’s the point? We didn’t invent it. If we invented it who cares? If it’s your idea against mine or it’s just some feeling, you know. I was being interviewed on the radio yesterday, and there was a pagan celebration going on and the program had recorded an interview. Well, this was a young man and his wife, I think it was his wife, they had been raised in the Assemblies of God and they became dissatisfied. Why are you into paganism? Well, it just feels better, you know, and I just like it. Obviously they never had a solid basis for what they believed; in fact he said that he began at the age of 5 having these mystical experiences. But he continued on as, presumably a Christian, but the Christian “religion”, as he called it, didn’t satisfy him and there were so many different religions and they contradicted one another, and so forth.
Tom:
But why would that make any difference if you are into experiences?
Dave:
Exactly, Tom, because that’s what he said. What he liked about paganism he said, Look at all the people we have here at this celebration, and they can all do their own thing. Tom, it is—I can’t fathom it, it’s so ridiculous, it’s so illogical. So everybody is going to do their own thing? I said on the radio in response to it, well it sounds exactly like what the Bible says— “all we like sheep have gone astray, we’ve turned everyone to his own way,” “every man did what was right in his own sight.” Does God have anything to say about this? Does He care? And again on the program I said you can’t even play a game without rules. How are you going to be what God wants you to be, or does that really matter? Faith and facts have to go together, otherwise what am I believing? I am believing a myth, I’m believing a superstition; I’m believing some story that somebody passed along.
Tom:
Dave, you know one of the problems with doing the show from week to week, is that we say some things that are important, and then somebody may pick up that show and then—or by important I mean at least foundational to what we are trying to communicate and somebody doesn’t hear that. So we have a tendency to repeat some things for the sake of those who may be just listening to the program for the first time. But even so I think it’s valuable because I find that too often we’re not really grounded in fundamentals; that people jump on things or get excited about some things and really don’t seek out the basis or the foundation on which their belief or an idea, something they like is base.
Dave:
Tom, I think we’ve raised an awful lot of children in our Sunday schools and in our Christian home who don’t have a foundation. And, as I’ve mentioned before on this program, I run into them all the time. I think most of our church services are sort of feeling-oriented. We’ve got music, makes you get into the mood, and good positive up building sermons. I think people can go week after week into a church service and sing the hymns and hear the prayers and listen to the message and it’s all taken for granted that everybody understands it and everybody believes it, so we don’t have to lay a foundation again and again. I think we need a foundation and I can tell you, Tom, in my life as I have faced trials, now there are things that come along, and you could almost get mad at God. God, why did you allow this? Is there a God? I would never come to that thought because I know that there is, but I can tell you very often I have to get back to the basics and I say, well, Lord, I know you exist; I can’t explain this universe without you. I know that you must be a God of love and purpose and justice and truth, or I wouldn’t even have those concepts. And so, Lord, I’m just going to trust you in this situation. I’m not going to try to analyze it from my limited viewpoint because I don’t know the ‘morrow, I don’t know everything. I have to remind myself sometimes God really does exist! Tom, as I look at this world, and get out in the street and see the traffic going by, get in an airplane and go into airports, I mean, all the hustle and bustle and the developments of modern civilization, the computers and all the amazing stuff that we’re doing, the peace process, the negotiations over Jerusalem, whatever it is, there is one things that is missing, that is God! It’s as though God doesn’t exist, it’s as though we are in charge of this world. We made a mess of it for sure, but we are going to try to do a better job, and this carries over even into church services. We’ve got this thing called, “religion”, or “church” and we have our openings and we have our announcements. Tom and people out there listening, I’m not trying to be critical, I’m speaking to my own heart. It’s very easy to go along day after day and forget God, and this is what God himself says in the Old Testament. He says, “I have brought forth children, I’ve raised them, I’ve cared for them, my people have forgotten me days without number.” Or when they think of God they mold Him to their image or He is some kind of a genie in a bottle who only exists to give us what we want. When we are in trouble then we cry out to Him, and somehow we don’t give Him the love and the fellowship that He wants to have with us and we just forget Him. We need to get back to the basics and Tom, if God really exists, if this is really true, if eternity is forever and this time, our life is but a vapor that appears for a while, and if God, that ought to impact how we think and how we act.
Tom:
Dave, one of the things that continually speaks to my heart is, something actually you said, I don’t know when, you know we’ve been together so long, I keep getting these pearls of wisdom from you and then you say, check it out in the Bible, I do that, but what I’m getting at is that, remember one time you said that faith is really trusting God, and in order to really trust somebody you have to get to know them.
Dave:
Right.
Tom:
And the better you know them, this is simple but it’s absolutely true and it’s had a great impact on my life in a pinch, well, not even a pinch, in some kind of episode in my life in which everything seems to be going wrong, or tribulation or whatever you want to call it. I can lean on God, not just because He is my only hope, or He is the only one out there that can bail me out, as it were, but because I can turn to Him quickly in almost every situation because I know Him better and the better I know Him the more I trust Him, and that’s critical. So, Dave, it isn’t just a bail out situation, but it also—if you know somebody and you get to know them better and better and you love them more, it affects the choices I make in my life, the things that I know I shouldn’t do because I know it won’t be pleasing to Him. Now that’s not legalism, that’s a love relationship, and how else can we get to know God except if, again as you have said many times, you study the Word on your knees, these are His love letters to us, and you get to know somebody as they write to you and then you obey those things trying to please Him. It’s just a way to go about it, that’s what this program is about. We’re saying, “search the scriptures daily,” not just so you can have this wealth of knowledge but so that you can know Him personally and better because this is His revelation to us.
Dave:
It’s very basic in the Bible. Jesus said in John 17:3, “This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God in Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” And Paul cries out, O, that I might know Him, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being may conform one to his death, because Christ has become our life, our very life. As Paul said to the Epicureans and the Stoics and the philosophers there on Mars Hill, In Him we live and move and have our being. So this is absolutely basic to life and faith. If I’m going to have faith, Jesus said, have faith in God. To have faith in God, I must know that He is, I must believe that He is, He that comes to God, Hebrews 11:6, must believe that He is. And that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. It doesn’t mean He rewards me with things, He rewards me with himself. And to get to know God, I tell Him so often, it’s beyond our comprehension that God always is. He didn’t get to be God, there wasn’t a time when there was nothing and suddenly God came into existence, God always has been, He always is, He always will be. He always is God, I mean that’s beyond my ability to comprehend, and that He loves me, really loves me, not just some impersonal cosmic energy source.
Tom:
And doesn’t need for us to fulfill anything in himself.
Dave:
He does not need us, it’s not because I’m worthy, it’s not because I’m worthless, it’s because of who He is in spite of my unworthiness that God really loves me and wants to teach me. I don’t know if I dare to digress but we’ve got a little bird feeder out there and the birds are so sloppy and they knock it down to the ground and then the ducks come and get it from the ground, and then there’s coveys of quail that come through. I’m kind of partial to quail and way up in the—
Tom:
Not squab.
Dave:
—way up in the rocks I go up there and I throw some bird seed up there so the quail can get it cause they can’t fly up onto the bird feeder, and the ducks are getting it right down at the bottom. You know what, those ducks have learned that it’s up in the rocks too, and they go up there. And then I try to think sometime to the quail, why don’t you get over here quick before the ducks get here, you know, and I wish I could get down there and tell you. I was saying to my wife just this morning, Ruth, I think God must feel that way about us; we are so stupid, so slow to learn. I’ll be 74 shortly, what have I learned? I remember the old cartoon and what did it say, why do we get so soon old and so late smart. But God is so patient, and to know this God of infinite wisdom and power who created this universe and know of every subatomic particle and every atom is or ever will be or ever was. That’s such a privilege and a wonder to know Him.
Tom:
Dave, we’ve been comparing the scriptures, the Bible, God’s Word with other sacred books and comparing biblical Christianity with other beliefs, other religions, and in keeping or following what you said, this God who loves us, who is sovereign, who created us, who, as you said, knows everything from our sins to those of even the things that we attempt to do for Him which are mostly for self, all of these things He demonstrates His love by sending his Son to die. Here is the Creator of the universe becoming a man dying for the sins of mankind. You know, as Charles Wesley said, “Amazing love, how can it be that thou my God wouldst die for me.” Where do you find a God like that, in any other beliefs or from any other religion?
Dave:
Tom, I think about that all the time—I talk to God about it all the time that He would do that for us. I mean, we are rebels, we are sinners, and we rebelled against Him. What man would do to God is we would tear him from his throne and put ourselves in His place. And that was certainly demonstrated at the cross when God himself comes as a man in love and does nothing but good, feeds the sick, heals those who need healing, raises the dead, opens the eyes of the blind, and He is hated and mocked and put on the cross. That’s what we did to Him and He knew what we would do, and He was willing to endure it because He loves us. And so He paid the penalty that His own infinite justice required for sin. He became a man so as a man He could pay the penalty for the human race. Tom, as you said, that’s beyond our ability, even to fathom such love, and this is God’s love. This is not like Hinduism for example, the law of Karma, an impersonal law that could turn you into a bug or a tree or whatever, or the idea that if you picked someone up out of the gutter in Calcutta and put them in a clean bed, you know, and so forth, you’ve interfered with their karma, and they’re going to have to come back to that same place in the next life, and so forth. Now here is a God who loves us, Herein is love, the scripture says, not that we love God, but that He loved us. Our love is in response to His, and the more we realize He loves us the more we love Him in return. By the way, this is the highest motive for serving God. We’re not serving God because we’re afraid if we don’t He’ll damn us, and because we’re trying to earn our salvation, we’re trying to earn points with God. We serve Him in response to His love, out of love for what He has done for us. This is God, God the Creator of the universe, that He wants me to know Him.
Tom:
Dave, I was sharing this morning in the staff with our devotions in staff, we were talking about the character of God. It’s wonderful to talk about, but I also, I was reminded in my own walk with the Lord early on. You know, I was reading the scriptures, mostly the New Testament, hadn’t gotten around to the Old Testament, and I remember talking to a young pastor and you know, I wanted to be with it. So I said, you know I really like it, I’m going through the gospel of John, I just really love the God of the New Testament, but I’m not so sure of the God of the Old Testament. Well you know, he said to me, well, have you read it? No, I hadn’t, well you know, a few scriptures here and there, but no, I didn’t know that until after I read the Old Testament how incredibly from the Psalms and other verses we have God’s loving kindness His tender mercies, His long suffering— and anyone who just objectively reads through the Psalms and doesn’t have an idea that this God is more compassionate, more loving, more merciful than anything they can comprehend along those lines, is just missing it.
Dave:
You know, Tom, I’m a little bit older than you, well of course I’ve been a Christian much longer, and I can remember reading these, not skeptics, modernists, liberals, many years ago, forty years ago. We’re talking about the God of the Old Testament is different from the God of the New Testament, and that God is being progressively revealed and the ideas that Moses had, and so forth in the Old Testament about God. We’re not the same as the idea that Jesus had and now it was Jesus who gave us the concept of a different God and so forth. Now wait a minute, God is God, and the God of the Old Testament must be the same as the God of the New Testament. Is the Bible inspired of God? Did God speak to his prophets? Fifty times or more Ezekiel says, “the Word of the Lord came unto me.” God doesn’t change. Yes, God has anger, He is angry with the wicked every day. God is angry with sin, He is opposed to sin and you get that very clearly in the Old Testament. But in the New Testament it wasn’t just what men did to Jesus, God poured out his wrath against man upon Christ. That was why those hours of darkness, that was why He wept in the garden, sweated as it were drops of blood. The love of God is, as you said, it comes through very clearly, over and over and over in the Old Testament. And His patience, His grace, His mercy that year after year, decade after decade He bears with the children of Israel who are rebellious and disobedient. And yet He pleads with them and is patient and cares for them. God is so wonderful, and what breaks my heart is in my own life as well as in the world around us, that we ignore Him, we forget Him. We have our own little plans, our own little programs, and we go merrily on our way; even being religious, even going to church, and somehow God has been left out. I’m not saying that we’ve become atheists that we would reject God, reject His will, but somehow He is just forgotten, and we can carry on our lives without Him. How much more wonderful to know Him, to fellowship with Him, to be in touch with Him, in communion with Him moment by moment, day by day!
Tom:
Dave, we only have about a minute and a half left, but somebody out there listening, and maybe they are attracted to what we have been saying. You’ve been sharing some of your experiences, I’ve been sharing some of my experiences, but we’ve been talking about the God who revealed himself through the scriptures. How does somebody get started with getting to know the God that we are talking about? We only have a minute, so, sorry, Dave.
Dave:
Well, they know, first of all, in their own conscience and by the universe around them that He exists. And He says if you seek me with your whole heart you will find me. So, seek God, the true God, not the God you want Him to be, but seek the true God. He has given us His Word, so search the scriptures daily, get to know Him and His Word and open your hearts to Him and He will reveal himself.