archives
Gary:
You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Now, our final segment:
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
We return once again to 2000, with Dave and Tom.
Tom:
We’re discussing some verses found in the book of Genesis, which is the first book of the Bible. Our primary purpose in this is to better understand, not only the problems which mankind finds itself in today, that is the overwhelming consequences of sin, but more importantly the solution which the Bible prescribes. We’ve mentioned in previous programs, quoting from Genesis, that when God created everything, everything was very good, that is perfect in every way, but then sin entered His creation through disobedience.
We’re looking at the immediate consequences of Adam and Eve’s sin against God as we pick up with verse 9 in Genesis 3: “And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?” And He said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.” Verse 11: “And He (that is, God) said, who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.” Dave, this is a very different Adam and Eve that we know about previous to sin. Major things happened here, big changes took place.
Dave:
Well, they are alienated from God, first of all. They have a guilty conscience before God; they are not comfortable in God’s presence. They are being dishonest, they are trying to hide from Him, and they can’t be open with Him anymore. They really lost fellowship because they have disobeyed Him, and the whole relationship now has changed, they are rebels, they are sinners.
Tom:
Yeah, and Dave, its affected, or we are going to get on with more of these verses, but you can see right off, Verse 12, its affected their relationship, that is Adam’s relationship with Eve. He’s laying the blame on her, this is self, self has risen, self preservation has come to the fore here.
Dave:
Not only is he blaming her, but he is also blaming God, “the woman that You gave me, God it’s all your fault, You gave me this woman and she’s the one that led us into this.”
Tom:
Verse 13: “And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.” Well, she’s laying the blame off here on this entity who seduced her. In other words, the problem is not with her.
Dave:
Yeah, Tom, maybe we need to deal with the serpent for a moment, we probably have in the past, I can’t remember.
Tom:
It’s good to repeat some of these things.
Dave:
Somebody, first of all, could say, I mean, this is obviously a myth. We talked about the Bhagavad-Gita, you call a myth, what about this, the talking serpent? Well, it’s not so mythological after all because we have our modern scientists trying to talk with porpoises. We have the North American Indians, Native American Indian religion for example, and they talked to all kinds of animals. This is an idea that is very current today.
Tom:
But that doesn’t make it true, or a reality.
Dave:
I’m not saying it’s true but you can see the truth of this story, this is history. Because the very idea that serpents could talk, the very idea that you could commune with nature, hug trees and so forth comes right out of here, and it is still here today. Furthermore, serpent worship, you know the Bible identifies the serpent as the bad guy; this is one of the forms Satan likes to take. The Bible says that right up front, right at the beginning, you find serpent worship everywhere. So again, you see the validity of this story, and you see how all the world’s religions, not only are contrary to the Bible, but they have inherited this error that arose at the very beginning.
Tom:
But Dave, to clarify this a little more, we know this took place because God’s Word lays it out, and God’s Word. We’ve talked over and over again about the evidences that this Word is true. So what you have is a created being in the form of Satan. You have him—
Dave:
Who has no body of his own, he’s a spirit being.
Tom:
Right, but he through this animal communicates to Eve, that’s what it says.
Dave:
And animal communication—the point I’m making, Tom, you will find it in all the pagan religions—not to say that it actually happens. Well, according to the Bible, they’re not talking to animals at all.
Tom:
I guess what I missed was you’re saying this deception which began in the Garden of Eden, it was a reality, [and] it was a deception. But it has been promoted down through history through all other religions and this is where it began.
Dave:
Absolutely, and the Bible says this opened the door to error and evil, and yet we have pagan religions going to the same source. The witch doctor, the shaman tries to find a power animal, maybe a coyote, or a jaguar, or whatever, you know, and they believe they are getting wisdom through this. So all I’m saying is, Tom, we have this being repeated today, and we can only conclude that the same source is behind it all. In fact, Satan somehow likes to identify himself as the serpent. We were talking about Hinduism earlier, Shiva, you mentioned Shiva, his hair is entwined with serpents. Yoga is depicted as a wrath made out of cobras with which you journey to the other side, to moksha. You find serpent worship, the Hopi Indians for example, and in India serpent worship. So I think we can see that this is a very factual story because it’s history because we have the effects of it still today, and perpetuating the same results.
Tom:
Dave, to repeat again, the reason we’re looking at Genesis is to better understand what the problem is today. And again, if there is a problem there has to be a solution. Now we are going to get to that in some later verses. But the thing I want to look at right now is, before man disobeyed he was in fellowship, in a relationship with God. God said, The day you eat of the fruit, in other words, the day you disobey me, you will surely die. And that death had to do with, first of all, with man’s relationship with God. We’re seeing changes here, but they are still communicating with God. What is this separation from God that death brings about?
Dave:
Well Tom, we need to discuss death, life or death, I guess. Jesus said I am come that you might have life, that you might have it more abundantly. He’s saying that to living people, people who are alive. The Bible says that we are dead in trespasses and in sin. It says that to people who are physically alive. We don’t even know what life is. Basically our bodies are made of chemicals, metals and potassium and oxygen and carbon and so forth. How does it get life? No scientist can tell you what life, even physical life really is. The Bible says God made man out of the dust of the ground, analyze your body, from dust you are to dust you return, that’s what we are. But it says God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul. Now, the life that man had came from God. It brought man into a relationship with God. Man was made in the image of God, not that God has hands and feet, he’s not a physical being, God is a Spirit, Jesus said in John 4. But man was created in a moral image of God, so that he could understand truth. He could love, he could recognize justice and holiness and so forth and be in fellowship with God. Now when he rebelled against God he died spiritually. I believe that the Spirit of God removed itself from the spirit of man, and there was a chasm between now. Even the physical life that God gave man came from the spiritual life of God within man, and when man was cut off from God, he began to die physically. He is already dead spiritually, separated from God, he begins to die physically.
Tom:
But Dave, what I want you to explain is, he’s separated from God spiritually, but here we have God in the garden, he is still communicating, how does it relate to that? Sometimes you would think, well, they are cut off from God, they are separated spiritually, and God is just never going to talk to them, never going to communicate, never going to appeal to them and then people would tell you that, but that’s not true.
Dave:
Tom, have you ever had a misunderstanding between you and Peggy?
Tom:
Yes, with my wife too.
Dave:
I can remember the first one we were just engaged, one month before our wedding, and I went over to see her, and we talked about it, there was a barrier between us. It didn’t mean that we couldn’t orally communicate, we’re communicating but we’re not on the same wave length, there’s something wrong, something has come between us and it has to be made right. Yes, God can come down, He talks to Adam and Eve, He talks through His Word, He sends His prophets, and so forth, but there’s a barrier between God and man.
Tom:
And this barrier we know if it’s a separation from God at death, the barrier stays, and these people are no longer in the presence of God, and there is no communication, isn’t that true?
Dave:
That’s right, they would be with themselves. It’s going to be a lonely time, self will be supreme finally, this is what many people want and this is where self had it’s awful birth in the garden of Eden. So there would be a separation that would be final, but at this point God is still trying to draw man back to himself.
Tom:
Well we are going to pick up with this next week.
Gary:
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.
Does God love only some of us? Has He already determined those elect who will live forever with Him in heaven? Are you one of the elect, and if not, is there anything you can do about it? The doctrine of Calvinism, its 5 points and their implications for the body of Christ are discussed and debated in two powerful books from Dave Hunt and The Berean Call: Debating Calvinism, Five Points Two Views, features a written debate between Dave Hunt and James White, published by Multnomah. In an easy to read format, Hunt and White exchange energetic letters addressing this long argued topic, co-author of The Seduction of Christianity, and co-host of Search the Scriptures Daily Radio, Dave Hunt: The influence of Calvinism is growing greatly in our church today. It’s very important that we understand, and we did Debating Calvinism so that you could have a debate in writing. You can go back and forth and read exactly what each side said, think it over carefully rather than an emotional debate.
Gary:
And in what some are calling the definitive work on this topic, don’t miss Dave Hunt’s What Love is This? Calvinism’s Misrepresentation of God, in this recently expanded and updated edition, Dave exhaustively documents the unscriptural nature of this doctrine that comes perilously close to blasphemy. Once again Dave Hunt: We did a new revised updated edition of What Love is This? because so many Calvinists were criticizing what I had said. I went through all of their criticisms and answered them in this new and expanded version.
Gary:
Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views, and What Love is This? Calvinism’s Misrepresentation of God in e-book or hard cover are both available from The Berean Call, information on how to order in just a moment. In addition to this radio program, we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of today’s broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #2609, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. Get a pen or pencil ready; we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment. Next week, we’ll continue our revisit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith, and “How accurate is biblical prophesy?” In Religion in the News, “Crossing over with John Edwards,” we’ll take a look at that story, and address the question; “Did Jesus Rise on the 8th Day?” We hope you can tune in. If you have questions or comments about this program, we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily Radio Ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers, and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for joining us and invite you to tune in again next week. Until then, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the scriptures daily. You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. For more information about The Berean Call, contact us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. Join us again next week for Search the Scriptures Daily, featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000 and
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here is this week’s question: Dear brothers in Christ, In past programs I have been greatly edified by your discussions of what seemed to be contradictions in the Bible. Here is another one I hope you will address. In Romans Chapter 3, verse 11, it says that “There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.” Yet in Jeremiah 29:13, it says: “And ye shall seek me and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” How is this reconciled?
Tom:
Dave, we read Romans 3:11, Gary just quoted, “There is none that seeketh after God” talking about the condition of mankind, but it gets worse. Picking up with Romans 3:14, “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood. Destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.” This seems to be talking about the condition of man. This seems to indicate you can’t seek after God, but on the other hand God says, seek after me and ye shall find me.
Dave:
Well Tom, let me clarify something from the questioner, first of all, [he] said that he enjoyed our discussion of contradictions in the Bible. We weren’t confirming contradictions in the Bible, we are correcting the fact that there are no contradictions in the Bible.
Tom:
The misperception that there are, very good.
Dave:
So we get that clear with our listeners out there, and this is not a contradiction either. You could go to a verse in Ecclesiastics for example that says, “Draw us and we will run after thee.” So yes, in our natural state man is corrupt, he is perverted; we have no thoughts for anyone but ourselves. There is no thought for God; we don’t even want to know God. But God, as Pascal says has put a vacuum in our hearts. We have a sense of something missing within us, and although our natural bent is to be materialistic, to seek selfish satisfactions in this material world. So, we don’t seek after God, yet God seeks us, and He draws us, and as He draws us with His Word, I mean this is what the Bible is all about: “Choose you this day who ye will serve,” God is revealing himself. God calls Abraham, for example. It doesn’t say that Abraham was a seeker after God; it says that God calls him. It doesn’t say that Saul of Tarsus was seeking Jesus Christ, but Jesus arrested him on the road to Damascus, and brought Saul of Tarsus to the point of being Paul the apostle where he could say oh, that I might know Him, [and] that this was his passion and his desire. So, it’ not a contradiction, it’s telling us what we are by nature, and what we would be if God left us to ourselves. But when God calls us and reveals His truth to us, we certainly can rationally respond, we can evaluate the evidence as we’ve been trying to do just in the earlier segment on this program.
Tom:
Dave, some who lean on this verse that is Chapter 3:11 of Romans, they would say this indicates that man is so totally depraved that he can’t respond, that God has to do something because this man is dead spiritually, there is nothing he can do. Yet God keeps pleading. I mean, I could give you verse after verse where He says, “Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth which have wrought his judgment, seek righteousness, seek meekness.” How can God say that if we can’t respond?
Dave:
I know this is a controversial item, and I have friends who are on the other side, there are good people on both sides, but I think biblically and rationally there is only one way you could go. There are two points that you’re making here. Number One: Why is the Bible full of pleas for men choose? You turn the whole Bible into a charade if man can’t really choose, if he is so totally depraved that he can’t respond to God, and yet all through the Bible God pleads. He sent His prophets, He pleads with His people to repent, but they can’t possibly repent they are so totally depraved according to this view. So, what is the point of pleading with people to repent who can’t repent? Now they could repent according to this Calvinistic view if God would extend, and only if God would extend irresistible grace to them. Then we have a God who is, I’m sorry, some kind of a—is He playing games with us, is He mocking us?
Tom:
It’s a charade in effect.
Dave:
Yeah, He’s pleading with us to turn to Him, but we can’t unless He extends irresistible grace, but He won’t extend irresistible grace except to certain elect. Well then on what basis does He decide to give irresistible grace to the elect and not to others? Why are they His elect? You cannot find a rational or biblical explanation for this. God is no respecter of persons, and there is no reason within any of us why He would do this. Tom, I’m sorry, it’s like you’re in the bottom of a well and I’m dangling a rope 30 feet above your head, and I’m pleading with you, Tom, please, please, take a hold of it, I want to take you out. But I’ve got it 30 feet above your head; you would think I was mocking you. And how can I explain to other people that I really want to take you out of that well, but you’re the one who doesn’t want to come out of that well. It doesn’t make sense and I don’t think it’s biblical.
Tom:
So, there is no contradictions, God does plead with people, He draws people to Him and we are able to respond by His grace which He provides for all of us.
Gary:
You’re listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come in this revisit to our 2000 series, Religion in the News, plus answers to your questions in Contending for the Faith, and in Understanding the Scriptures, Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk ask for Program #2609, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. Now, back to our special revisit to the year 2000. Now:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from the Bend, Oregon Bulletin, with a headline: “Spirituality, Total Liberation is at the Root of Yoga.” These days it seems everyone’s doing it, for many, physical fitness and relaxation are the goals of yoga, and certainly those are lofty aims at a culture of traffic jams and fast food drive through. Most people who arrive at the doors of “Yoga for Help” in Arlington, Texas, enter not because they are looking for religion, but because they are seeking a way to relieve stress, said Leonard Jefferson, who owns the studio. In his classes, Jefferson said, he does not emphasize the spiritual aspects of yoga, but concentrates on the physical postures, exercises and breathing techniques. For Carrie Rollins of the wellness center in Fort Worth, yoga is clearly not a religion. As an osteopathic doctor, Rawlins uses it in her medical practice and teaches it as preventative medicine, she says. Anyone with any religion can practice yoga, said Rawlins, who teaches some of the center’s 19 weekly classes. It has a spiritual side to it, but not a religious side, Rawlins said. However, even for those who practice yoga to improve their health and relieve stress, spiritual elements can surface. It can be used strictly on a physical level, she said, but that spiritual element creeps in.
Tom:
Dave, it’s not possible to practice yoga without the spiritual side entering in. The whole concept of it comes out of Hinduism. As we’ve mentioned in the past, yoga is basically yoking yourself to Brahman, the god of the universe.
Dave:
Tom, but I think maybe that statement you made seems a little bit too strong to some people.
Tom:
Okay, well, lighten it up.
Dave:
No, I’m not going to lighten it up, I am going to justify it, what you said.
Tom:
All right.
Dave:
The whole purpose of yoga, as you said, is to yoke with Brahman. It’s self realization to realize that I’m god, because everything is god. I’m a funny kind of a god, I forgot that I was god, so I practice yoga in order to remember that I’m god with self realization. Yogananda, self realization society, he brought that: well, if I’m god and I forgot that I was god, what good will it do me to remember that I am god when I forget it again. But anyway, the point you were making is, yoga was designed for this purpose, to escape time, sense and the elements, to reach Moksha. It’s a technique for dying, not for living, okay! So all of the positions that this article talked about, the breathing exercise and so forth, were specifically designed to put you into this altered state of consciousness to get you into this unity with Brahman, with the universe, to reach cosmic consciousness with some of our young people will experience on drugs. So, how can you take something that was designed for this, and then use it for something else? So, they are talking about physical fitness. Well, if you are interested in physical fitness, you should practice exercises that were designed for physical fitness. I’m not saying that these would not make you limber, and so forth, but you cannot escape the spiritual aspect of this and the reason you can’t escape it is because that is what if was designed for. Even the physical positions, the exercises and breathing and so forth are all designed for a spiritual purpose.
Tom:
Right, and it’s more meditation than it is aerobics. Somebody who wants to exercise, well, aerobics, that might be a value to them. But there is a spiritual side that is inherent with meditation.
Dave:
Well, meditation Tom, again we have to define the word because meditation in the West always meant contemplate. In the Bible for example, Psalm 1, In his law, God’s law, doth he meditate day and night.
Tom:
Well, give me another word, these words are being confused. Sometimes when you say, contemplation, it goes back really to an Eastern idea of looking within. So really we’re talking about thinking, using your mind, that’s the heart of it.
Dave:
Concentrating upon trying to come to a deeper understanding of God’s Word, or something. This is what meditation always meant in the West. Now, as you said, it’s been confused by the influence from the East. But this meditation from the East is the opposite; you’re not supposed to think. You’re supposed to arrive at this relaxed but alert state, but without any thoughts running through your mind. In fact you want to quiet yourself to get to the point where you are not thinking, you are not in control. That’s not meditation, that is opening yourself to demonic entities. So, Tom, if we had time to quote from some of the books on yoga by the great yogi’s, they warn you. They warn you that you could be taken over by another spirit; you ought to have somebody actually monitoring you as you go into this relaxed trance state. In fact, in much yoga, not all yoga it’s practiced, you have a mantra. For example, those who practice transcendental meditation with Maharishi, they discovered that their mantra, all the mantras are the names of Hindu deities. And again, read the books on yoga, by the great masters of yoga and they will tell you that the repetition of these mantras is a call to these entities to come and possess you. So you can’t escape that, although you are told, Maharishi said, this is scientific, it has nothing to do with religion that was a lie! So they’re getting what they think is good health and they are actually getting into Hinduism.
Tom:
Right. Dave, most people, if they are going to do something they want to do it really well. If they are going to put their time and energy into it they want to understand it and do it the best they can. Now, you go to the YMCA, you take a course in yoga, people from the East, yogis who practice this would laugh at what goes on over here because it has nothing to do, really with, although it’s built upon it and there are some aspects of it but it’s not yoga as it is practiced in the East. It has to do, as you said, with a process of dying.
Dave:
So why call it yoga, Tom?
Tom:
Yeah, that’s a good question.
Dave:
That’s deceptive advertising.
Tom:
Dave, my point is, people are getting into something, maybe not expecting it to be spiritual, but that is the heart of this, and they are going to pick up baggage including, in some cases, there are warnings out there by these teachers, demonic possession, not in every case, but at least they are going to have their, if they are Christians they are going to have their Christian world view completely undermined by this process.
Dave:
They are going to take up a world view; there is no doubt about that. They will pick up an un-Christian, unbiblical world view without a doubt.
Welcome to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, we’re glad you could join us. Coming up in this week’s broadcast in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, and, “Would you believe a talking serpent?” In Religion in the News: “Is Yoga for the body or the mind?” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Another contradiction in the Bible?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s Cover Article. We continue our revisit to our 2000 radio series based on Dave Hunt’s book, An Urgent Call To A Serious Faith. Today we focus on the question, “What is the importance of prophecy?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s Tom McMahon:
Tom:
Thanks, Gary. In our ongoing discussion of Dave Hunt’s book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith, we’ve been comparing the teachings and claims of biblical Christianity with the beliefs proclaimed by other religions. So how are we going about this? Well, for the most part we’ve been searching out the sacred scriptures of various scriptures to see if they live up to what one would expect from a book or books said to come from God, and what should we expect? Well, if God is a supreme, all powerful, all intelligent, transcended, supernatural being the communication should reflect such characteristics. In fact there ought to be plenty of evidence to support the claims that the holy books on deed from God. In previous programs we’ve considered such sacred writings as the Qur’an, the Book of Mormon and of course our ongoing scrutiny of the Bible. Today we’re going to be discussing some of the sacred scriptures of Hinduism which may not seem relevant to many of our listeners who don’t recognize it as the foundational religion of the New Age Movement, or as the religious belief system which first introduced evolution and which gave the West such popular practices as yoga and meditation. But first Dave, let’s give our listeners an example of the kind of scrutiny we’re talking about by applying it to the Bible.
Dave:
Well, you have to examine what the Bible says as well as what these other religious writings say. The Bible talks about real people, talks about real history, real events that are part of the history of this world, it’s verifiable. Read the Bhagavad Gita for example, it’s mythology. Much of what you find in the Qur’an is similar to the Arabian knights about Jens, you know, and the spirits, and almost like the genie in the bottle. So we simply go to the Bible or to these other writings and what do they say? What do they talk about—or the statements of fact concerning the universe? The Bible doesn’t make any mistakes [or] scientific errors. The Qur’an does; or let’s say as to the origin of the universe. Scientists have pretty much come to the conclusion now; finally they are agreeing that the universe had a beginning. Well, the first three words in the Bible, “in the beginning.” There are many ways that we can analyze this.
Tom:
And again, this is what we would expect if the Bible as it claims is the Word of God; “Thus saith the Lord” literally thousands of times throughout the scripture.
Dave:
And Tom, if it isn’t, or if it is only partially and we have to decide. Well, it does have some errors, you know, as modern theologians would say. But wait a minute, then who decides what part of the Bible is true and what part is false. We also have to take the Bible as a package, either it’s all true or we throw it out, because if it isn’t all true then you and I have to decide what parts are true. So it really isn’t the authority of God anymore. We don’t have God’s Word; we’re not certain of it—then forget it.
Tom:
Yeah, Dave, even as a package we alluded to the fact that if a supreme being is going to reveal, or communicate to us, there ought to be some aspects of that that say, wow this is beyond what man is able to do. For example, the Bible is a package, it’s numerous books we would consider it to have 66 books. They were written by 40 different men over a period of 1600 years, cohesive. These men were from different occupations, everything from Moses being trained in the court of Pharaoh, to a farmer in the case of,—well Amos was a sheepherder and a farmer, Peter was a fisherman, Paul was a Pharisee, Luke was a physician, different kinds of individual in terms of their occupation, maybe their education.
Dave:
Different cultures, different times in history.
Tom:
Right, but this is a cohesive book, they don’t contradict one another, amazing!
Dave:
Right and it does not reflect the thinking of the culture or the age, the time in which it was written, it is beyond that. It is obviously inspired from outside human knowledge and wisdom.
Tom:
Dave, with regard to that, Moses was trained, educated as an Egyptian basically in the palace in the halls of education and learning in Egypt. But you don’t find Egyptian culture presented in, Moses penned the first 5 books of the Bible. You don’t find any things related to that culture, that’s amazing!
Dave:
Nor do you find the superstitions that would be reflected if you went back and read the writings of that day. But in these other writings you do find these things, these supposed sacred scriptures of other religions. You will find a reflection of the age in which they were written and the wisdom that was accepted, the science that was accepted at that time. You do not find that in the Bible at all.
Tom:
So our appeal here as to—if somebody is going to regard books, sacred writings of different religions as inspired of God, which many, if not all of them claim to be, they should scrutinize them from the criteria that we are laying out. Is this what you would expect from a transcendent supreme being?
Dave:
Well Tom, probably the most important thing that you would examine with regard to these sacred writings is their revelation of God. How do they present God? For example, we mentioned the universe had to have a beginning. There must have been a time when it wasn’t here, nothing was here, no thing was here. Someone must have been here who could bring it all into existence out of nothing. Well, how does the Bible present God? Moses asked God, what is your name, who are you? He says, I AM that I am, I AM the self existent One, whose existence depends upon none other than Himself. God is the God—well the Psalmist said from everlasting to everlasting you are God. God must be always God, you can’t become a God and He must have always been here. That’s beyond our comprehension, but also we are driven to this conclusion by the evidence and by rational thought. Well, say Joseph Smith for example—said that God became God; once upon a time he was a man. He says that matter and intelligence always exited. No, we know matter couldn’t always exist because it’s composed of energy and energy runs down like a clock, second law of thermodynamics. Or go to the writings of the Hindus that you said we would get into today. We’re talking about pantheism; you’ve been using the term transcendent. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi came over here and he called it transcendental meditation. It isn’t transcended at all, it’s subscendental, and you look within yourself. So the gods of Hinduism, there are millions of gods—
Tom:
303,000,000 gods in the ranks of Hindu gods.
Dave:
But they would talk about the Trimurti, the chief gods, and then beyond that Brahman is everything, the famous saying in Hinduism, that thou art. And the whole idea of yoga is to realize that Atman, the individual soul, is identical with Brahman, the universal soul. But anyway, the point is in Hinduism everything is god, you’re god, I’m god, everything is god. Well, if everything is god, then nothing is god because god doesn’t mean anything. If god is an ant as well as the cloud or the thunder, you have no categories, it means nothing. Furthermore, it doesn’t make sense, because then god is sickness, as well as health, god is evil as well as good. If god is part of this universe there is no escape from this universe, there’s no hope. And this universe is running down like a clock. But the Bible presents God as truly transcendent, He is not part of this universe, the universe is not an extension of God, that’s why it is altogether wrong. The trend today is to try to use female language concerning God, she and so forth. No, a woman gives birth out of herself; the child is an extension of the woman. But God creates out of nothing, and you can only come to this conclusion. There couldn’t have been something hanging around forever that God created everything out of because that something would have worn out, because things are subject to decay and deterioration. So, unbelievable as it is beyond our comprehension, we are driven to the conclusion there was a time when no thing existed and God created this universe out of nothing, it’s not an extension of Him, so we have a truly transcendent God. Because of that there is a solution, there is some hope. The Star Wars Force, if there is such a thing, is running down like a clock, and one day all the stars will be burned out, infinitely dispersed, everything approaching absolute zero. All the schemes and dreams and corporate plans and ambitions of man will be like sand castles washed out into a cosmic ocean of nothingness, and it will all be as though it had never been, there is no meaning to it. But if God is transcendent, if He is totally other than this universe that He created out of nothing, then He is not deteriorating, He is not subject to the decay of this universe and He can recreate, He can bring a new universe into existence exactly as the Bible says. And we’re not talking about reincarnation, recycling a dead and dying universe, recycling human beings to come back again and again into this dead and dying universe. We’re talking about resurrection, which is life brought in by God himself who IS life, who is totally transcendent of others. So any way you want to examine this, Tom, philosophically, scientifically, historically, the Bible measures up 100% to truth, but these other writings do not.
Tom:
Yeah, and one of the reasons we are taking a look at the writings of sacred scriptures of Hinduism, some people may be thinking, Well, I rarely I run into a Hindu, I’m not particularly interested in those ideas or those thoughts, they don’t seem to apply to me, or I can’t relate to them. On the other hand, many people know if they are not into the New Age Movement they know of others, friends and relatives and so on who are into what’s termed the New Age Movement.
Dave:
Well Tom, as you mentioned earlier, yoga is everywhere, in every YMCA as far as I know, they teach yoga. Yoga has really caught on in our country, but yoga comes out of Hinduism.
Tom:
Dave, we’re going to address yoga because it has to do with our news alert. But there are many other aspects of the New Age Movement which in effect are Hindu beliefs, practices and so forth, which have been sort of repackaged for the Western culture for Western man. So a lot of people out there, my point here is a lot of people know people who are into the New Age Movement, into New Age concepts and beliefs. Now what we are trying to do—
Dave:
Well Tom let me just interrupt here—Lawrence LeShan for example, who was the president of the American Psychological Association, and he said that psychology is founded upon the basic tenants of Eastern mysticism or Hinduism. And Carl Jung—he wrote the introductions to the first translations in Western languages of some of the books on yoga and Eastern mysticism. There is a close relationship in many ways, the whole human potential movement, that our potential is infinite and so forth.
Tom:
So what we’re trying to do is go back to the roots of the New Age Movement, go back to the writings. We’ve done the same with regard to the Bible, we’re scrutinizing that, we’ve looked at the Qur’an; we’ve looked at the Book of Mormon. If these are foundational writings and teachings of basic beliefs, basic religions, do they hold up to the scrutiny that someone ought to use with regard to books that are claimed to be inspired. The books such as the Vedas, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Mahabharata, Ramayana, and Dave, we can’t cover all of these, obviously, in the short time we have left, but there are some points that ought to be brought out. These are mythologies basically, aren’t they?
Dave:
We don’t even know who wrote many of them, when they were written. If you take the Bhagavad-Gita for example, you don’t have original manuscripts, but we don’t have original manuscripts for the Bible but we have thousands of copies of copies which we can compare with one another. The Bhagavad-Gita, you’ve got different translations or different versions even in different languages. So you are not even certain what you have, it’s a mythological story, it involves mythological characters, they never existed, Arjuna, the terriotier for Krishna. We have no reason to believe that he ever existed or that this is even a real history that is being discussed. The same would be true of the Mahabharata, the Ramayana, and so forth. These are mythical stories of supposed incidents, but there’s no historical evidence for them.
Tom:
Right, for example, what’s called the trinity of the Hindu godhead: Brahma the creator; Vishnu the sustainer who supposedly was incarnated as Avatar’s nine up to this point, including Rama and Krishna. Rama, an interesting character as it were, supposedly, his wife Sita was kidnapped by a demon Ravana who took her to Salon and then Rama gets the help of the monkey god Hanuman, and they build this causeway from India to what’s now Sri Lanka, or was Salon, and they win her back. Now, people who go to India they find these temples and in these temples and to the monkey god Hanuman, there are monkeys running around and they are feeding these things. Now, is that reality, is that—
Dave:
The causeway, is it still there?
Tom:
I don’t know that anyone has found it yet.
Dave:
Yeah, but you didn’t get to the third god of the Trimurti, Shiva the destroyer. I’m sorry, Tom, I interrupted you.
Tom:
It’s all right. Well, Shiva, his wife Shakti, I mean, we are talking abut absolute destruction. Well, Shiva is the destroyer; supposedly the Hindus believe that with destruction then comes recreation. So it’s this cycle that they live under of rebirth and death and rebirth and death and rebirth and so on.
Dave:
Shakti, Durga she’s also known as, Kali, you have the great temple to Kali in Calcutta.
Tom:
This is the wife of Shiva.
Dave:
That’s right; the wife of Shiva—she is even more destructive than he is. She is depicted with her foot on his head or on his throat, and the Hindu says her beauty is in her terror. You see images of her with several arms and she is drinking blood out of a skull, you know, and so forth. It actually means force, Shakti, in Sanskrit, this is the Force, this is the Star Wars Force, this is the force, the impersonal force behind the universe, and this is the basis of much that is taught or believed in the Western world today. So she is actually, the Hindu does what he calls a Shaktipat, the Force touch, he touches someone on the forehead, zip they fall over backwards, they’re off on a trip to other planets, they get enlightenment and so forth.
Tom:
Dave, we’ve seen many of the gurus that have come from India to the West, from Rajneesh to Muktananda, they were all able to do this, so called Shaktipat.
Dave:
Muktananda was incredible with the Shaktipat, and he brought this enlightenment to a number of the top psychiatrists.
Tom:
Now Dave, we’ve got about 3 minutes left, but the point we’re trying to make here is that people have based the application of their life on these beliefs. For example, going back to Kali, from the 13th to the 19th century you had people running around called “thuggies” which we get our word “thugs” from, and they’re basically kidnapping people to sacrifice them to the god, or the goddess actually, Kali. So our point is, if there is no foundation, if there is no evidence that these things are true, but they are not only erroneous, but in some cases they are very evil. People buy into it, they practice it and the results, the consequences of a false belief are absolutely devastating. Now that’s come to the West in the New Age Movement, maybe not these things as they were practiced back then, but certainly that’s what they are from and that’s where they are going.
Dave:
Well, we gloss it over. We have Westernized versions, whether it’s yoga or whatever it is. Tom, I’ve been to India and I can tell you, I can remember being wakened about 2:00 in the morning with screams and then shouts and I quickly dressed and got out there. You would almost be terrified to see the goddess, it was Kali they were carrying through the streets, and the look on some of these people’s faces, the fanaticism, and the evil that is perpetuated in these religions. And yet they are brought to the West and they are honored and people even go, I mean, how many young people have gone to India and have died over there trying to get into these kinds of religions? This is superstition that has no basis in fact, and it produces evil. Why is it perpetuated? Because of the human heart that has rejected God. Any yet in the Bible we have the revelation of the true God, which brings about moral improvement, which brings salvation, which changes peoples lives and gives them a certainty of being in heaven with Christ, with God in the Father's house of mansions, as opposed to these other things. So there is a big difference, Tom, and we have to define that, which we are trying to do. That’s why we are saying, search the scriptures daily, let’s get back to the Bible.
Tom:
Right and what we’re seeing here is, there’s a delusion going on out there and it’s heavy that all of these religions are actually different paths to lead to the same place.
Dave:
Jesus said it, didn’t He?
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
“Broad is the road that leads to destruction and many there be that go in that, straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life,” and He claimed to be that way.
Tom:
For our encouragement to listeners out there, I mean, we may have gone over some things that are bizarre to them. But more and more, although these things are bizarre, they are being accepted. If you would seek the truth, if you want the truth, if you think that some of these things that we have been talking about have no foundation are not going. Just check it out, look around, and our prayer is that you would be a seeker after God’s Word, God’s truth.