archives
Gary:
You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Now our final segment:
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
We return once again to 2000, with Dave and Tom.
Tom:
We’re discussing various aspects of the gospel of salvation, and we’re going through the first chapters in Genesis. Dave, some of our listeners may not be familiar with the Book of Genesis other than knowing that it’s the first book of the Bible, and it says some things about creation. But nevertheless they are of the opinion that it’s not particularly relevant to the gospel. Some theologians have even gone so far as to dismiss the first 11 chapters of Genesis as something the Bible would be better off without. But Genesis was vital enough for Jesus to quote from, wasn’t it?
Dave:
Genesis is the way the Bible begins, and as we’ve said on this program and on other programs if the Bible isn’t all true, then who says that any of it is true, or which part of it is true? And the Bible in fact is, we have been seeing in our study of Genesis, in the book of Genesis it lays out the foundation for everything else. If I can’t believe what the Bible says about the fall of man, why should I believe what it says about his redemption? And in fact we do have it laid out here beautifully and powerfully.
Tom:
Dave, I’ve heard people say, you talk to them about the Bible, you try to bring it up, that’s what this program is about, but they say, oh no, I’m not interested. I say, why is that? They say, well, you know the Bible is wrong right from the beginning. And I say well, how do you figure? And I said “in the beginning God created.” Oh no, no, no, God didn’t create anything. So they take an evolutionary view. But that’s to throw it out, but I’m more concerned about Christians who undermine it because, as you said, it really is the foundation. You know, one thing that we’ve been talking about here, and we’ve been trying to understand better is the gospel has to do with Christ dying for our sins.
Dave:
Tom, can I just interject here for a moment. This unrehearsed program is obviously unrehearsed. Let’s go back to what you just quoted, “in the beginning God.” It’s rather simple, we know that the universe—this is the conclusion that scientists have only come to very recently, that there was a beginning to the universe. It’s obvious if the sun had been here forever, you know we have talked about this; it would have burned up by now. We know that any things made of energy, energy’s 2nd Law of Thermodynamics; it runs down like a clock. So oh, there was a big bang that began it all. Yeah, but where did the energy for the big bang come from? If there had been some energy hanging around it would have worn out before the big bang, you understand? So you are driven to the conclusion that there must have been a time when nothing was here, the universe wasn’t here, it had a beginning, okay, that’s the way the Bible starts, beginning. Well now what was here in the beginning? Nothing? You couldn’t have had some piece of matter hanging around it would have worn out, okay? So there must have been a time when the energy that the universe is comprised of, the matter that is in the universe did not exist! There was nothing, you don’t get something out of nothing. Not some thing couldn’t have been here—some One must have been here. Some One who had the capability of creating everything out of nothing.
Tom:
Right, but not of himself.
Dave:
No, and not of things, things couldn’t have been here long enough. We talked a little bit about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith said that matter and intelligence are eternal, they existed forever. No, 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, matter couldn’t have been around. Okay, so how does the Bible begin? In the beginning, the beginning of the universe, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. You are driven to that conclusion by science; you are driven to that conclusion by logic. And this is the way the Bible begins, and then it moves from there and it tells us what God created and the place of man in this creation, man’s relationship to God that God desired to have, man’s rebellion, and the solution that God has for them.
Tom:
Right. We’ve been talking about the problem, the problem found in Genesis is that, as you said, man rebelled and the penalty is in Genesis 2:16 and 17: “In the day that thou eateth thereof thou shalt surely die.” Adam and Eve sinned; God imposed the penalty, separation from him forever.
Dave:
And it wasn’t that there was something about that tree or about that fruit, it was in the eating thereof they had disobeyed God. This was a test to see if they would obey God, and God has to be God. We don’t want God to be God, the God that most people want I kind of a cosmic bellhop, He does our bidding, He answers our prayers, He gives us what we want. But somehow, it’s unreasonable for God to expect us to go along with His plans, we want to make our own and then we want God to bless them. So, this is all laid out in the book of Genesis.
Tom:
Right. We’re going to pick up with Genesis 3:7. Right after Adam and Eve sinned we’re going to discuss the consequences. Verse 7: “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. This is their first response to sin. Before they had no knowledge of evil, but now they recognized things from a mind that was now sinful.
Dave:
Interesting that apron, and I don’t want to get off the track here, Tom, but the Masonic apron the masons want to be buried in. In the temple ceremony, in the Mormon Temple it’s Satan who comes and gives them the apron.
Tom:
But it’s a good thing as far as they are concerned.
Dave:
That’s right.
Tom:
Why is it a good thing?
Dave:
Well, supposedly this is Satan’s solution.
Tom:
Well, they wouldn’t say Satan, they would say Lucifer.
Dave:
Well yeah, Lucifer. Brigham Young says it like this: “The devil told the truth. I do not blame Adam and Eve for eating the forbidden fruit, that’s how we become gods.” So Mormonism is literally based upon the belief that the lie the serpent told that destroyed the human race, according to the Bible, is the truth, and this is starting us out to become gods. Like Lucifer said: “I will be like the most high.”
Tom:
So that’s Joseph Smith’s solution, or so he was told from Moroni, that’s his solution to the problem, that’s not God’s solution.
Dave:
Actually you don’t find that in the Book of Mormon, this is something that he came up with. An inspiration that he got—he burst upon the Mormons in the King Follett Discourse, first of all. But anyway, it’s the old lie, and as you know Tom and I’m sure our listeners would be familiar with; I can’t remember whether we discussed it before but I’m sure we have. And this is the common lie that is everywhere; it’s the goal of all yoga, self-realization, to realize that I am God. This is the message that you get when you are in contact with spirit beings, whether it’s channeling or in a séance, and so forth. It comes through everywhere; you reach cosmic consciousness under drugs, LSD and so forth. So, this is the universal lie, and the Bible lays it out very clearly for us.
Tom:
Dave, back to verse 7, I want to really talk about the reaction of Adam and Eve to their sin. First of all they see that they are naked. Before,—they didn’t have any problem with it. Secondly, this sewing the fig leaves together, that wasn’t just an act of modesty, I think they were trying to hide from God. They were trying to—
Dave:
Well, they did hide behind a tree. Someone has put it very well, an old preacher of previous century said that every sinner is like Adam and Eve hiding behind a tree. But what we have to do is find out what is that tree and chop it down and expose them to God. And that’s what the Word of God does really in our hearts.
Tom:
Verse 8: “And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.” They didn’t have to do that before, sin has taken its affect in terms of their relationship, now it’s different.
Dave:
There is definitely a separation between God and man, and there is a solution that is needed and man cannot effect it, it has to come from God’s side, no doubt about it. It’s interesting, Tom, “Ye shall be as gods knowing good and evil.” This was the promise of the serpent, and they became like the gods. What were the gods? Well, the head of them was Lucifer, he rebelled. So now Adam and Eve, you could become rebels too, and you can pretend that you’re little gods or you can aspire to your own godhood, to make your way to plan your own life.
Tom:
And self exultation—that’s what caused Lucifer himself to fall, and then Adam and Eve.
Dave:
This is where the self that Christ said must be denied, this is where it had its awful birth. And remember, Satan didn’t tempt Eve with immorality, with drunkenness or anything else; he tempted her with a good self image to become like God with high ambitions, but on her own in rebellion against God. And that’s the problem of the human race and in each of our hearts.
Tom:
And it leads to the destruction which we can—the evidence is all around us. This is not what God intended but this is what sin has—
Dave:
But praise God, He has a solution in Jesus Christ who died for our sins, paid a penalty so that we could be forgiven.
Gary:
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. And now to tell you more about our ministry, here’s TBC Executive Director Tom McMahon:
Tom:
The name, The Berean Call, is taken from the book of Acts, chapter 17: 10 & 11, where we find the apostle Paul entering the synagogue in the Greek City of Berea after he had just come from Thessalonica. To these Bereans he preached that Jesus was the long awaited Messiah sent from God. They were commended for being noble or fair minded, not only for their willingness to hear what Paul had to say about the matter, but more specifically because they searched the scriptures daily to find out whether or not what the apostle was saying was found in God’s Word. That’s what we hope to encourage through this ministry. Our mission is to alert believers in Christ to unbiblical teachings and practices impacting the church. We want to exhort believers to give greater heed to biblical discernment and truth regarding what they are accepting as spiritual. We hope to supply those who profess to be Biblical Christians with information and materials that will encourage the love of God’s truth. Hopefully we can help mobilize believers in Christ to action in obedience to the scriptural command to earnestly contend for the faith found in Jude 3. And finally, our prayer is that we can be used of God to stimulate Christians to look to the Bible alone as their rule of faith, authority and practice in living lives pleasing to our Lord and Savior.
Gary:
In addition to this radio program we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of today’s broadcast on compact disk ask for Program #2409, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. Get a pen or pencil ready; we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment.
Next week, we’ll continue our revisit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith, and “Should faith be based on facts?” In Religion in the News, “Toast with the Testaments,” we’ll take a look at that story and address the question: “What is the third secret of our Lady of Fatima?” We hope you can tune in. If you have questions or comments about this program we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily Radio Ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call I would to thank you for joining us, and invite you to tune in again next week. Until then, if you desire to know God’s truth search the scriptures daily. For more information about The Berean Call contact us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation. Please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Mr. Hunt and Mr. McMahon, I notice that the latest episode of the Left Behind series reached the number one spot of the New York Times best seller list. I’ve read all of them and found them to be very entertaining, but there is something that puzzles me. Among evangelicals who believe in the Rapture of the church before the Great Tribulation, there has been a zeal to produce all kinds of things, from tracts to film productions to let the world know that when millions of people disappear from the earth those left behind will know those raptured went to be with the Lord. The idea is, the Left Behind type tracts, books, videos and so on will explain the mass disappearance. It seems like the current popularity of rapture explanations will help a great number of those to come—there has been a zeal to produce, what do you think?
Tom:
Well, I haven’t read the Left Behind series, I haven’t read any of the books, but what I have heard about it they sound like they are pretty good.
Dave:
I have not read them either, Tom.
Tom:
So why are we talking about it?
Dave:
I’m waiting for my good friend Tim to give me some free copies. No, that’s not the issue, I just haven’t had time.
Tom:
But what about this idea, Dave?
Dave:
I understand the question this person is asking, and I’ve had some people say that it bothered them, but you would get the idea by reading the series that, well, we’re not sure whether Jesus Christ is the Savior or not, and we’re not sure about, you know, whether the Bible is true, but if these people suddenly disappear they will know it’s all true and then we’ll come to Christ. Now again, I haven’t read them so I don’t know, but I’m assuming these people are telling me if that is the impression it gives, I think it’s dangerous.
Tom:
Are you referring to 2 Thessalonians 2?
Dave:
Right. I can’t be dogmatic, but it does seem to indicate that if you have heard the gospel, I mean only the Lord knows, but it does say that those who refuse to receive the love of the truth will be given a strong delusion to believe the lie, 2 Thessalonians 2: 8, 9, 10, well, from 10 on, that they all might be damned who had pleasure in unrighteousness. I think it would be very dangerous for anyone to say well, I’m going to wait and see, and if the rapture occurs, then I’ll believe. I think you would be given a strong delusion to believe the lie. On the other hand—
Tom:
Which comes from God himself, the scripture says.
Dave:
Exactly.
Tom:
So we’re not talking about just somebody’s thoughts or ideas, I mean, they will be compelled because of their own heart, the delusion of their own heart to believe this couldn’t have happened even if they had one of Tim’s books in their hands.
Dave:
Right. Tom, I’ve often told audiences, and again I can’t be dogmatic because the Lord knows the heart of each individual, but I’ve often said you know if suddenly we all disappeared and you were the only one left here in this church sitting here alone, I don’t think you would believe it was the Rapture. You would have some other explanation, you would be given a strong delusion to believe the lie, and there are a number of lies, you know, explanations, and the popularity of UFO’s and the space Odysseys and so forth, “beam me up, Scotty.” I think that would probably be the most rational explanation for most people who are left behind.
Tom:
In addition the man of lawlessness, the Antichrist, he’s going to be a compelling figure to seduce the world. So it won’t just be an idea they had about where these people may have gone. He will supply some information in that regard.
Dave:
There will be people, millions perhaps who will come to faith in Christ because the Bible talks about the great—
Tom:
After the Rapture.
Dave:
After the Rapture—a great multitude and they pay for their faith with their lives. If you don’t take the mark of the beast you can’t buy or sell. You don’t bow down and worship is image, you are killed. It’s that simple, it’s going to be enforced because of the necessity, I presume, and you can see it coming now to unite the world and we can’t have people who are coming up with contrary theories and ideas that bring about disunity. Everyone has to think the same; they will all worship the Antichrist for the good of mankind, of course. If I were an unsaved person I would not want to take a chance. I think you would be tempting God, I think furthermore that the gospel is true, we have the evidence. Each person knows in his own heart that he is a sinner, that he needs salvation, he needs forgiveness from God, and he needs to be saved from the penalty of God’s wrath because of sin, and if that is not enough to convict them and to bring them to Christ, then I don’t think they are going to believe afterwards.
Tom:
Dave, Tim LaHaye has taken some hits on this because people are saying, as they have said to us, Well, this is an idea; this Rapture idea came out of the 1800’s. Again, the name of the program is Search the Scriptures Daily, isn’t there a scriptural basis? We do have a little time here but is there scriptural basis for this idea of the Rapture?
Dave:
Of course. In John 14, Jesus said, I am going to go away and prepare a place for you; I’ll come again and receive you unto myself. He says he is going to the Father’s house, sounds like he is going to take us to the Father’s house. Now 1st Thessalonians 4, you know, says “the dead in Christ will rise first; we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.” And in the Latin Bible you have the Word of Rapture—
Tom:
In the Vulgate, right.
Dave:
—rapture there. So definitely the Bible says we are going to be taken away from this earth. At the Rapture Christ doesn’t even, his feet don’t touch the Mount of Olives; we are caught up to meet him in the air. It’s only at the second coming that he comes to this earth to rescue Israel in the midst of Armageddon. So, the Rapture is not an idea that we get from some writing of men, it comes from the Bible.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come in this revisit to our 2000 series, “Religion in the News” plus answers to your questions in “Contending for the Faith,” and in “Understanding the Scriptures” Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk ask for Program #2409, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. We continue now with our special revisit to the year 2000. Now:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from the Orlando Sentinel, with the headline: “Mental Health Professionals Battle Mental Disease:” Many mental health professionals, psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists and nurses have waged, or are waging their own battles against a mental disease. Studies have found that psychiatrists have the highest suicide rate among physicians, and a 1994 survey of psychologists found almost two-thirds had battled clinical depression, 84% had spent time in therapy, and 29% of psychologists had felt suicidal at some point. Mental illness among therapists is more common than in the general population. Neither the American Psychological Association nor the American Psychiatric Association requires practitioners to tell patients whether they themselves have suffered from a mental illness or disorder.
Dave:
Tom, the psychiatrist and psychologist as a group are the most atheistic of any group, any profession. I know a number of men who have gone into it and have lost their supposed faith, because it is an attempt to explain human behavior without God, without the soul, without the spirit. It began with Freud’s medical model, so everything was just the genes and the nerves and the function of the body, and somehow that explained everything. Now, as you know, psychology and psychiatry have moved way beyond that into transpersonal and into all kinds of mysticism and so forth. But I think this is a valid news item, I mean it was a news item and it is newsworthy that those people who claim to be the ones that are going to tell us what is sound mental health, are themselves suffering more than any other profession from the very problem that they claim that they understand and are the experts in curing. In fact, it has been said that psychology is the only profession that causes the disease of which it claims to be the cure, and you can see that in the people themselves. Now why you would turn to these experts is like going to a bald barber and learning how to grow hair. These people have the problem, we have psychiatrists going to psychiatrists and they can’t straighten one another out.
Tom:
Dave, early on, psychoanalysis—all psychiatrists who had a Freudian bent and that was the main thrust years ago—they had to be psychoanalyzed themselves. As you know, my Dad was a psychiatrist, and he suffered from many of the things that are in this article. And I used to think about why he had these problems, and I believe now it’s because I think he had a heart, a desire to help people and I think most psychologists, psychiatrists do, but it doesn’t work. So if you’re in a profession in which you are trying to help people, and basically they are dumping all their problems on you, and the best you can do, it’s like having a room with furniture, all you can do is keep relocating the chair, the desk and keep moving things around. So if you have a heart for people you’re going to take this burden on yourself and you’ve got nowhere to go with it, so that’s going to lead to suicide, drinking and so forth.
Dave:
Yeah Tom, as we keep reminding ourselves and our listeners this program takes its authority from the Bible. And the Bible claims to give us all that we need, 2 Peter 1, “He has given us all thing that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who has called us to glory and virtue, whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises that by these you would be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” The secret to the Christian life is not gritting my teeth and somehow trying to be a happy person, somehow trying to overcome problems but it is—
Tom:
Or their thinking, positive thinking or positive mental attitude, and put yourself into another mind frame—it doesn’t work.
Dave:
The whole thing is, I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me. The life that I live, this is the life of Christ, Christ has become my life. That is so fantastic! Buddha didn’t offer anything like this, Muhammad doesn’t offer anything like this, Jesus died for our sins, was buried, rose again, He said, because I live you will live also. He promised the Holy Spirit, He came to live within our hearts. So the secret to the Christian life is Christ in you, the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of therapy, the fruit of the Spirit living within us, empowering us is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, temperance, meekness, so—
Tom:
Dave, let me stop you. If a psychiatrist could offer that, but they put that on their shingle out front, they would have more business than any human in the universe.
Dave:
Right. So Tom, since the Christian is experiencing Christ living within him, He is the vine, we are branches, His life is pouring through like the life a vine through the branches to bear the fruit. I don’t think Jesus Christ needs any help from psychiatrists. I don’t think the life of Christ within us needs to be psychoanalyzed or improved, it’s just that simple. So you either believe what the Bible says or you believe some Johnny-come-lately, Freud, I mean, he had so many problems, and psychiatrists have all kinds of problems, and now they are trying to analyze and solve the problems without God. But then are going to sort of amalgamate this, we’re going to come to a partnership between the Bible, which doesn’t need any help, and psychology—
Tom:
Well Dave, here’s the dichotomy. Psychiatry is all about self, self is the solution to the problem. God’s Word says, Matthew 16—deny self. So you have, I mean at loggerheads right away. There is the problem as simply as we can state it.
Dave:
I’ll go with Jesus and the Bible rather than Freud!
Welcome to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for joining us. Coming up in today’s program in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, focusing on the topic, “Are the first 11 chapters of Genesis just myth?” In Religion in the News, “How do you know if your psychiatrist is crazy?” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Since everyone knows about the Rapture, how could anyone be left behind?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s Cover Article. We continue our revisit to our 2000 radio series based on Dave Hunt’s book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith. Today we focus on the question, “Is the Bible historically accurate?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s Tom McMahon:
Tom:
Thanks, Gary. We’re going through Dave Hunt’s book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith. It’s a book, which based upon the responses we have received, has a lot of people excited about the simple truths of God’s Word. Today we’re continuing our discussion of Chapter 5, which is entitled, “Shortcut to Truth,” and the shortcut is to go directly to the Bible rather than exploring all the religious beliefs of mankind. First, such an exploration is a rather impossible task and second, the Bible declares that all other religions are wrong. And if the Bible is indeed true in everything it claims, then there is not need to go through the teachings of other faiths. Now Dave, I’m sure what I just said didn’t thrill some of our listeners; on the other hand there may be some out there who are excited about what they just heard. But I can't take blame or credit for what I just said, can I?
Dave:
Well, this is what the Bible says. The Bible claims to be God’s Word; if it isn’t God’s Word what’s the point? There is no point for you and for me to sit here and discuss what we think God may have said, then we’re going to decide what religion is right or wrong, on what basis would we decide that? The Bible says all of the rest of them are wrong. Let’s go to the Bible first, it claims to be God’s Word, and if we can prove it and we can, and then we’ve saved a lot of time.
Tom:
The name of this program, if you have just joined us is Search the Scriptures Daily and our premise is God has revealed to mankind all things that pertain unto life and godliness through the knowledge of Him, and that’s 2 Peter 1:3 and his specific revelation of such things are found in his Word, the Bible. Now, getting back to what you wrote in your book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith, the Bible is the key to your shortcut. If it is what it claims to be, that which God himself has revealed to mankind, then it must be true in all it communicates. Psalm 119:160, “Thy Word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.” So, if we find that not to be the case, then we just come up with some persuasive excuses to help God out or at least some major institutions because they have a lot at stake in this, don’t you think?
Dave:
Well Tom, if the Bible is not all true, then how do I decide what part of it is true; what part of it isn’t true? The Bible is not just about theories, ideas, not just about religion; in fact the word religion is only found a couple of times in the Bible. The Bible is based upon history, it’s recounting history, it’s giving us facts, it’s giving us evidence. For example, if we do not have an eye witness account of what Jesus said and did, what is the point of speculating about it today? It is either true or it’s false. If it’s false, throw it out, forget the whole thing. And if God has not spoken definitively to man and we cannot recognize, we cannot know that this is God speaking, we can’t prove that it is, it’s not a valid record, then Tom, we have nothing. There’s no point in talking about it because we would have no way— So you and I for example, are going to sit around and discuss what Jesus maybe did or what he didn’t do like the Jesus Seminar does, on what basis would we come to any conclusions? We couldn’t possibly come to any conclusions, so we are wasting our time. We’re going to sit around and talk about what God is like and so forth, and what God may have done or what His plans and purposes for man may be. How would we come up with these ideas? If God hasn't told us, we’re wasting our time. The Bible, not only declares that it is God’s Word, it gives us the evidence, and we have talked about it in the past.
Tom:
Dave, we’re going to get into some of the evidences, but before we go there, we said last week and in past weeks that if the Bible is not true, if it’s not accurate, 100% accurate, then we throw it out.
Dave:
Right.
Tom:
But the Bible, down through the ages—fallen man has had his hands involved in it, so how far can we push this accuracy business?
Dave:
Well, a copyist may have made an error here and there; it doesn’t say that every copy—for example, if I sat down and I began to copy parts of the Bible from my King James sitting here in front of me, it doesn’t mean that I would be without error. We have thousands of manuscripts for the New Testament which we can compare back and forth. Certainly there are no doctoral teachings, no factual teachings, no doctrinal teachings, no statements of fact that we have any doubt about. Now when you come to translations there are no exact equivalence for example, between some Greek words or Greek ideas and English or German or whatever it may be, but we have God’s Word. And the ideas that it presents, the history that it presents, the scientific statements that it presents whenever it deals with science and they must be accurate, and indeed they are.
Tom:
And that’s what you would expect, again, if this is God’s Word, if this is God’s revelation to mankind through the prophets who are inspired.
Dave:
And he would preserve it, and of course the great evidence is in the prophecies foretold thousands of years before they happened, events that have shaped history and the whole world has witnessed them, so there’s just no doubt about that.
Tom:
Right. Dave, as you know, it’s our joy to be talking about God’s Word because we believe, and certainly we believe the evidence bear out that this is indeed God speaking to mankind.
Dave:
Furthermore, Tom, it bears witness in our hearts. This is a book that pierces even to the dividing asunder; it reveals the thoughts and the intents of the heart. And when you read the Psalms, you read the Proverbs, you read what Jesus had to say, you read what the prophets had to say, they’re not playing favorites, they are indicting Israel with the sins of the people of Israel and so forth. This book from that standpoint again is unlike any book out there, this is God speaking to man, and it’s a powerful, convicting Word that rings true in our hearts and in our consciences, no doubt about that. So we have this side of the Bible as well.
Tom:
Right. One of the important verification test is archeology, the Bible is a history book, it talks about civilization, it talks about individuals, kings, rulers, it talks about cultural aspects of societies over diverse, well not diverse but over a great length of time. And archeologists have been able to dig up some of these artifacts that relate to the culture.
Dave:
If you are a Jewish student in grammar school over there in Israel you study your history out of the Bible. Archeologists want to know where to dig to look for ancient cities they follow the Bible to find an old well, for example, from the Bible days, the days of Genesis, the days of Abraham or whatever. No, it’s all verifiable; you don’t find anything that contradicts it. The museums of the world they contain literally mountains, tons of evidence that has been dug up, coins and metals and utensils, and the Bible is true, it’s verifiable archeologically.
Tom:
Dave, and those who would denigrate the Bible, particularly, you know there have been some archeologists or theologians in the past that said, well, for example the Hittites, we can’t find any evidence for the Hittites.
Dave:
Well, I visited the Hittite Museum in Ankara, Turkey, yeah, they did say that at one time, they’ve said a lot of things denied the walls of Jericho fell down, denied even that—denying that King David even existed. Every time, 100% of the time when the archeologists dig up the information we find the Bible is true, the critics are wrong. But they hadn’t found the evidence for the Hittites at the time these critics were making those remarks, but they did eventually dig them up, and as I said, in a tny museum in Ankara, and of course you have evidence of the Hittites in other museums around the world as well.
Tom:
Right, Dave at a later date there was even some grumbling that Pontius Pilate never really existed, I mean hear what we are dealing with the New Testament, but it was interesting how they came about some information with regard to Pontius Pilate, are you familiar with that?
Dave:
Well, I know there’s a lot of information. For example, Josephus mentions Pilate and of course when you visit Caesarea you have that stone there with the inscription by Pontius Pilate on it. Caesar had tried to destroy all evidence of Pontius Pilate, just wipe him out, but this was a stone that had an inscription on it that was just right for a seat in an outdoor amphitheater and so they used it with the inscription underneath. When the earthquake came and overturned it and the archeologists found it, and so forth, there it is. But we have other evidence as well that gradually came up. Tom, let me just give a couple of examples if I may here, from the Book of Acts.
Tom:
Sure.
Dave:
Let’s take Chapter 13:7, “Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, — and so forth, we’re talking about the Island of Cyprus and the Greek word is (omtopotos) for deputy. Now (omtopotos) that was a title belonging only to a man of proconsul dignity, and the skeptics said the Governor of Cyprus never had that dignity so the Bible is wrong. Well, what do you know, the archeologists found a coin minted in the reign of Claudius Caesar which verified that indeed he was an (omtopotos). Just take one other one here; we have limited time on this program. Acts 16, Verse 12, “And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony:—The Greek word there is colonia, and again it is not just an ordinary colony it’s a colony with a special status, special Roman status, and the skeptics said Philippi never had that dignity. What do you know; they found a medal that showed that Julius Caesar had conferred that dignity upon Philippi. We can give you other examples, but now you couldn’t have written this several hundred years later and put in these accuracy’s that are there and the Bible has them just for their verification purposes, and also a little bit of a trap for the skeptics.
Tom:
Luke was pretty good at what he did, but really we are talking about the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not only were these men historians, particularly in Luke’s case, but that had the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide and direct.
Dave:
Eyewitness historians.
Tom:
Exactly. Dave, I want to quote Nelson Glick, you know that name. He’s been called the Dean of Mid-East Archeologists, here’s what he says: “It may be stated categorically that no archeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible.”
Dave:
Well, that’s quite a record. Now you couldn’t say that of the Bhagavad-Gita for example, the Hindu Vedas, the Qur’an, you couldn’t say that.
Tom:
Dave that certainly separates the Bible from every book considered by religious groups to be sacred. Even a cursory reading of scriptures other than the Bible reveals multiple errors, in fact, history, and science. One book that I would like to consider now just by comparison, and it’s viewed as sacred, is particularly having spiritual and historical significance is the Book of Mormon. In the Latter Day Saints articles of faith is found this statement: We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God. However that statement of equality with the Bible soon out distanced the Old and New Testament. I quote Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt: “Who in his right mind could for one moment suppose the Bible in its present form to be a perfect guide. Who knows that even one verse of the Bible has escaped pollution? Let me give you just a couple others: Mormon doctrinal authority and Apostle Bruce McConkey, however is even more direct in regarding his church’s view of the Bible. “One of the great heresies of an apostate Christianity is the unfounded assumption that the Bible contains all of the inspired teachings now extent among men.” Later he declared what I guess was really bothering him, Dave. “There’s no salvation outside the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and Mormons have the only pure and perfect Christianity now on earth.” Now Dave, I don’t agree with what he says, but I do appreciate this, he’s up front, he’s laying out his beliefs, and that’s refreshing in one sense.
Dave:
Right. There is an attack upon the Bible for obvious reasons, we just laid it out. If the Bible isn’t true, then we have nothing really, it’s up to you and me to decide or somebody else to decide. So the Bible is attacked from all sides, skeptics but it is also attacked from who claim to teach from it, because Mormons would also say they teach from the Word of God. While the Catholic Church doesn’t as far as these Mormon prophets that you’ve been quoting or apostles, the Catholic Church does say that the Bible is true only when it comes to morals and doctrine of our salvation, not infallible regarding history and science. Now of course the God who wrote the Bible created the universe so I think he probably knows about science, and the Catholic Church for example accepts theistic evolution and denies the validity or the accuracy, infallibility of the Bible with regard to scientific and historical matters. Now that raises a real problem because if the Bible isn’t scientifically accurate then where else is it not accurate? It’s telling us things about God that we can only know from God himself, and if God doesn’t know about the universe then why should we believe what He says about himself? But Tom, I think you wanted to get into something specific about the Book of Mormon.
Tom:
Right. Let me quote from the Book of Mormon, this is from 2nd Nephi Chapter 29, and these are verses 6, 9 and 10. It says, “Thou fool that shall say a Bible, we have got a Bible and we need no more Bible. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another. Wherefore because that ye have a Bible ye may not suppose that it contains all my words. Neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.” And certainly this is a view I’m reading from the Book of Mormon, they have the Doctrine of Covenants. They have other sacred—they would refer to as sacred teachings.
Dave:
Of course Doctrine of Covenants hadn’t come yet and this is talking about the Book of Mormon. Now in Luke 24, Jesus it says, beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them, all the scriptures the things concerning himself. We find Jesus giving no quotes from the Book of Mormon which existed prior to Jesus. This was written about 600BC, there are no quotes in the Bible, no references in the Bible, and the Bible is a self contained book from Genesis to Revelation. There is no room for this other book that claims to be inspired of God. Furthermore, the things that you have in Mormonism contradict the Bible, so we can’t have God giving two different statements. Furthermore, in contrast to the Bible, which archeologically, historically we’ve said is accurate; the Book of Mormon just has hundreds of problems in it. You have domesticated animals for example; that it claims existed in pre-Columbian times that weren’t there. It talks about iron and steel tools and weapons— they did not exist. It talks about linen and silk clothes and nearly every kind of domesticated animal which we have today is mentioned in the Book of Mormon. They simply didn’t exist. You have domesticated chickens, and so forth, but we are not there, Tom, I mean, it’s just very simple. You have the claim that the American Indians came from Jewish stock, these were Jews. No, there is a difference anthropologically between the American Indians and the Jews. The American Indians come more from an Asiatic background.
Tom:
Well, Mongolian.
Dave:
Mongolian, right.
Tom:
Dave, you mentioned or you were referring to the Lamonites who supposedly—well, they are descendants of the tribe of Manasseh and they also, all of the American Indians were descended from them, according to—now here’s how that came about. Verse 21: “And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing because of their iniquity, for behold, they were hardened in their hearts against him that they had become like unto a flint wherefore as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God caused the skin of blackness to come upon them.” Verse 22: “And thus sayeth the Lord God, I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people save they shall repent of their iniquities.” Verse 23: “And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixed with their seed for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing, and the Lord spake it and it was done” In other words, all of the dark skinned Indians of South America, North America, they are actually Jewish, according to this and that came about through God’s curse. Dave, any anthropologist would say, in no way!
Dave:
It simply isn’t true. Furthermore, in about 30 years you have about 28 people who have suddenly become like the sands of the seashore, they’ve become two great nations, and they have this big battle.
Tom:
In the millions.
Dave:
Yeah, you can’t, I mean it’s impossible, it didn’t happen, you can’t find a trace of any of the cities, Bountiful or Zarahemla, and there are a large number of cities that are mentioned. We haven’t found a record of any of them; we haven’t found the ruins of any of them. You can’t find the topography, you can’t find a river or a bay or a mountain that is mentioned. The Mormon Church has spent millions of dollars, they have scoured North, Central, South America with archeological teams and they cannot find a pin, they can’t find a coin, they can’t find anything, in fact everything that we find is to the contrary.
Tom:
Yet, what I read at the beginning, the quotes from Mormon apostles—they would say that the Bible is corrupt and inaccurate and so on. So Dave, what we’re doing here is we’re taking a book that claims to be the Word of God that claims to displace the Word of God.
Dave:
Which Justice Smith said was the most perfect book in all the whole world.
Tom:
And see, if indeed it holds up to scrutiny, and it doesn’t in our view, and it doesn’t, I think, in our view, and anyone who looks at it seriously.
Dave:
Tom, there is no non-Mormon archeologist who puts any credence whatsoever in the Book of Mormon, and there are many Mormon archeologists who have confessed there is no Book of Mormon archeology.
Tom:
You know, once again the name of this program is “Search the Scriptures Daily.” We’re asking everyone to put, not necessarily the Book of Mormon or other books that claim to be sacred books of different religious faith, not just those books but the Bible as well. We’ve got to know God’s truth, we want His truth. Jesus said, if you abide in my Word you are my disciples indeed and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. That’s our heart in this.
Dave:
Amen.