Is The Emerging Church Just 'Cultural' Christianity?

Tom: You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him.

In this first segment of our program, we’re continuing our series on the emerging church movement, and if this development within evangelical Christianity is new to you, I hope you’ll stay tuned as Dave and I give you our perspective on what is truly a very troublesome spiritual phenomenon.

Now, it’s attracting mostly young people between the ages of 18-30, many of whom have bailed out on the seeker-sensitive or purpose-driven churches that were motivated by church growth marketing concepts. We’re told that these young people desire a more spiritual environment in their worship and that they want a more authentic Christianity, one closer to what the early church practiced. And a goal of the emerging church is to…as we talked about last week, they say they are trying to introduce a reinvented or reimagined Christianity to the world, particularly our youth culture, which is heavily influenced by post-modern attitudes, beliefs, and practices.

Now, Dave, as I’ve read a number of the articles in books by emerging church leaders, there’s no doubt that many of them are reacting against things that have come into the evangelical church that have more to do with cultural Christianity than what the Bible teaches, and we’ve been concerned about that. That’s been a chief concern ever since I’ve been working with you for almost 30 years, and we’ve addressed these issues over the decades. But it seems to me that the emerging church movement is mostly exchanging the traditional Christian cultural influences for post-modern cultural manifestations of today’s youth. For example, their evangelism, which they term “missional,” they claim that it’s to be based on the Apostle Paul’s statement that they’re to be “all things to all men, that some might be saved.” Is that what Paul meant, that we’re supposed to mimic the culture in order to reach the culture with the gospel?

Dave: I think Paul was talking about not offending people. He says to the Jew, “I became as a Jew,” etc. It doesn’t mean that I adopt their beliefs or that I adopt their practices, but that I show some concern and compassion for them. To what end? To bring them the gospel. He says, “That I may win some. I became all things to all men if by any means I might win some.” Now, what does that mean “to win them”? Well, to win them to Christ, and Paul makes that very clear.

But, Tom, as I read these emergent church leaders (and I haven’t had time to do the sort of reading that you’ve done), it’s pretty clear what it’s all about. What it’s all about is “We’re going to throw out doctrine because that divides. Besides, that doesn’t really express love. How can you be loving when you’re so narrow-minded, dogmatic about doctrine?” They can find a few verses here and there, and certainly the Bible talks about love. God is love. And we are to take the message of God’s love, in His love. But after all, it is a message. Jesus did say, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel.” He didn’t say, “Go into all the world and love one another.” The most loving thing I can do is to give them the gospel.

But as I read some of this stuff, it’s just mush. We’re going to save the world by cleaning up ecologically, etc.? Well, I’m not opposed to that, but they’re throwing out the gospel. They’re complaining about people who want to bring the gospel. When Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father but by Me,” He was being narrowminded, according to their view. But they bypass those scriptures. When Paul tells Timothy, “Preach the Word,” all this sounds good, Tom.

Tom: You’re talking about these ideas, these concepts that come from emergent church leaders. You’re right, they do sound good, and they are drawing and attracting our young people. But I’m afraid that our young people are not thinking these things through, especially those—and many have been grounded biblically. They come out of conservative evangelical backgrounds, but they’re not thinking this stuff through.

Dave: But, Tom, what they’re saying is doctrine doesn’t matter. It doesn’t really matter what you believe, just so you practice love. Just show love. Now, the most loving thing I can do is to tell someone the gospel.

You know, Tom, it reminds me of…I’m trying to think of the name of the book. It was written by a Catholic leader and she has, or had at that time (and I’m sure it probably has grown) many communities around the United States. They were picking street kids up, rescuing them, some of them dying. And I will never forget a young lady named Michelle that she talks about in one of these books. And Michelle was a street kid, and Michelle’s passion was, “Well, sister, am I going to get to heaven? What do I have to do to get to heaven?” And she says, “Well, I just leaned over and I hugged Michelle and I said, ‘God loves you and you’re going to be okay.’” And that night she died. Now, it sounds very loving and kind. It sounds very much like hospice. You can be loving and kind and gentle with these people, but don’t tell them the gospel, because that’s narrowminded. You might upset them.

I remember having a debate with Elisabeth Kübler-Ross…

Tom: On Death and Dying, a psychiatrist.

Dave: A Swiss psychiatrist who had supposedly counseled with 20,000 people who had experienced clinical death. And in the clinical death they had experiences of light, and the light embraced them. And it was just love. There was no judgment. She was very upset that I would say, “Well, the way to minister to dying people is to tell them the Bible does say, ‘It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment.’ And that Christ came, He is God manifested in the flesh. He is God and man in one Person. He paid the penalty for our sins so that God, a just God, could righteously forgive us, and give us the salvation that is available only in Jesus Christ.” And she got very upset with me. Well, she wouldn’t want me to counsel any dying people. I would just upset them.

Tom: Of course, she developed a whole methodology on stages that you have to go through, and each individual has to be addressed according to these stages that she made up. These were her ideas. That’s it. 

Dave: Right. She was also deceived in—she got involved with some deceiving spirits.

Tom: Right.

Dave: In fact, at one time somebody who was posing as a spirit, and I guess she smelled the alcohol on this person’s breath, and wondered why this spirit was dead. But, anyway, Tom…

Tom: Well, this was down in San Diego. The San Diego District Attorney had to look into it because people were really being conned by this, whether she was herself.

Dave: I think she was, because this was something she wanted to believe. So, Tom…

Tom: Dave, let me just add this for the sake of some of our listeners, to give you more input about this issue of love. You called it mushy. In some circles they call it “sloppy agape.” You, know, you just love everybody, love this and love that. Well, another real influence along this line would be a former Catholic priest, although in the Catholic Church you’re never “former.” But this would be Brennan Manning and his book Ragamuffin Gospel. That’s what that’s all about, and many evangelicals, particularly those in the contemporary music field, just bought that hook, line and sinker. But there was no gospel in there, and his views were, you know, as I said, just sloppy love, sloppy agape, and it moved a lot of people. It moved them emotionally. That’s what we’re seeing a lot of that within the emerging church movement. Discard doctrine, sound doctrine. Let’s go for what feels good, what seems to be right. “There’s a way that seems right unto a man,” as the Scriptures tell us.

Dave: Yeah. Well, let’s talk about love. Revelation:3:19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
See All..., Jesus says, “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous, therefore, and repent.” This is found another time when He says it once more in His address to the seven churches.

Tom: That sounds pretty dogmatic, pretty clear cut—even narrowminded if you’re not into something like that.

Dave: Can I give one of my illustrations? I don’t think I’ve given this one. I’ve got all kinds of illustrations, a lot of airplane illustrations. But here, the pilot is in his final approach to the airport, and the radio control tower said, “You’re half a mile south of the runway. Turn 10 degrees to the north.” And he says, “You narrow-minded, dogmatic fundamentalist, I’m just going to where I want to go. Don’t you love me?”

It’s so absurd, Tom, but these people have thrown out the Bible. They’ve thrown out truth. And they pick up—John 13: “By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” But love rebukes.

We could just go back to Solomon in the Book of Proverbs: “He that hates his child will not correct him, but the one who loves his child will correct him betimes” (in the old English it says). He’s going to make sure. And Solomon says, “A child left to itself, to its own devices, will bring its mother to shame.” Oh, but that’s not loving. Don’t you love me?

So, we have this from the homosexuals, for example, Tom—“Well, can’t you just accept me? What do you have against me?” Well, we have something against what you are doing, and it’s an abomination to God.

So, Tom, this whole thing is, I would say it’s a—we’ve had a lot of movements, but this is a step beyond, because it rejects the truth. It rejects the gospel. In fact, it says it’s wrong to preach the gospel; it’s wrong to bring correction. What we just want to do is to just help people, just love—and they talk about redeeming the world: this is going to be the salvation of the world. Well, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.” And Paul writes in Romans, he says, “In this the love of God was manifest, that he gave his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.”

These people, what I’ve read of them, they talk a lot about love, and communities of love, loving one another, and so forth. But the real love of God that sent Christ to pay the penalty for our sins—well, that doesn’t matter. “We embrace Catholics.” Well, they’ve got a false gospel, as we’ve explained on this program many times. They embrace atheists, Buddhists—it doesn’t matter who they are, just so long as we act lovingly toward them, and then we will have this wonderful community that will really save the world. 

Tom: Dave, let me throw a qualifier out there, because, as you said, I’ve read most—I would be hard pressed to think of who I haven’t read in terms of an emerging church leader. So I’ve read a lot of material. But more than that, I’ve had a lot of discussions with young people—bright, evangelical young people—and it’s a thrill to talk to them. And I try to do more listening, because I’m trying to figure out what they are thinking here, and what they are putting together. And I have to say this—some would say, “Well, Tom, I’ve been to this church…” And for example, “I’ve been to Rob Bell’s church, or this church or that church, and we don’t see any of the things that you’re talking about.” Well, let me say this…

Dave: See any of what things?

Tom: The kind of issues that you’re bringing up. In other words, they would say, “Oh, you’re too extreme, or you’re taking that out of context. This doesn’t actually go on in this church.”

For example, I have a young son, and my youngest son is in college in Southern California, and he’s a freshman. And he was looking around for a church, and someone at his university—somebody took him to an emerging church in Southern California. So I got his feedback. He’s not a clone of me; he’s really a lot brighter than I am. I like to listen to him. So I wanted to get his perspective, and so on. And he identified some of the things in this church that you’ve articulated, and we’ve been talking about and writing about and so on. But there are some churches that are only into this a little bit, you know. Some are kind of starting with it. So they still have more of the gospel, more of expositional preaching and teaching and so on, but they are moving in a certain direction.

Let me give an illustration, Dave. My viewpoint right now is that it’s like a cruise ship, and you go aboard the cruise ship, and you say, “Oh man, that’s got really some good things aboard.” Okay? “It’s got this and it’s got that. And yeah, I really like that, but it’s got some things I don’t like.” Maybe, you know, a lot of them have gambling and other kinds of things that some people might not go for. The point is there’s some good things and some bad things on this cruise ship, but here’s the problem, in my mind. Where is the cruise ship going? You gave the illustration of a plane landing, or trying to land 10 degrees off. Where is this ship going? And if it’s a part of the emerging church (or trying to be a part of it), and drawing those things in, and going by all of the books, the leaders, what they write about, it is going off course, well, right from the time it leaves the dock, and it’s moving that way. That’s my real concern here.

So we’re not saying everyone is into all the things we’re talking about, but we’re giving examples, and we’re giving ideas, directions, concepts that are coming from the emergent church leaders.

Dave: Tom, they talk a lot about culture, and they’re not the only ones. We don’t want to push our culture on someone else, which the culture has nothing to do with the gospel. There’s nothing about the culture in the gospel. But I don’t remember—maybe we’ve quoted this before, but here’s Doug Pagitt—he says, “The most important thing was to find out what it means to have a 21^st century faith.”

Now, that goes right past me. What do you mean a 21^st century faith? Oh, the Bible has to be brought up to date? It’s not about centuries! “Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever.” The Bible was not written to a certain group of people in a certain culture at a certain time in history. In fact, this is one of the criticisms that we have about the Bible. They say, “Well, that was just written at a certain time by a certain group of people.” No, that’s one of the proofs that the Bible is inspired of God. Moses, who grew up in the culture there in Egypt, and all the ridiculous superstitions, you don’t find any of that.

Tom: That’s amazing to me, Dave. I mean, it’s a classic example that’s so contrary to what these guys are saying.

Dave: Right. It’s not written for a culture. It doesn’t reflect the culture. I challenge them—show me where it reflects the culture, and the culture is vital to understanding. If we don’t understand the culture, then we can’t understand what the Bible is talking about. No, absolutely not!

But there we have another problem, Tom. It’s been going on for a long time. We’ve had people in the evangelical church for decades telling us, “Well, now you’ve got to get into the culture. You’ve got to understand the cultural background of this, otherwise you can’t know what Paul is saying, or you can’t know why Jesus is saying this.” No, that undermines the Bible! This is God’s Word to all people and all times in all cultures.

Now, let me just give you another quote here…

Tom: Dave, you’re picking your quotes out of a book that we offer. It’s a terrific book by Roger Oakland called Faith Undone, and Roger gives a tremendous overview of what’s going on, including all of the major leaders, their quotes, and so on. So, you’re going to get an idea… Also I’ve written an article about this. It was called, “Weaning Evangelicals off the Word—Part 3.” It dealt mainly with the emerging church, so if you’re interested in this, if you see it happening in your church, get hold of us, contact us. We have materials that will help you understand better what’s going on. Go ahead, Dave.

Dave: There’s an emerging church leader, […], from Birmingham, UK, England.

Tom: This is all over the world.

Dave: Right. He says, “Evangelism or mission for me has no longer persuaded people to believe what I believe.” It never was about that!

Tom: Dave, you hate to laugh, but some of these things are really absurd.

Dave: Supposing that what I believe is wrong! “Oh, but I’m on a mission.” Never, ever! Jesus didn’t say, “Go into all the world and persuade people to believe like you believe.” He said, “Preach the gospel.”

But anyway, he says, “No matter how edu-creative I get, it’s more about shared experiences and encounters. It’s about walking the journey of life and faith together…” What faith? Faith has to have an object! What is this life? Jesus said I am your life! “…each existing in his or her own tradition and culture, but with the possibility of encountering God and truth from one another.”

So now I’m going to find out—now, you’re a Buddhist, but I know you are a loving person, and how have you encountered God? Or you’re into this false religion, Christian Science—oh, they are encountering God. Well, what about Jehovah’s Witnesses? I mean, they talk about Jehovah. Maybe I can learn something from them. No, Paul writes to Timothy, 2 Timothy:4:2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
See All..., “Preach the Word.” He doesn’t say, “Well, but adjust it for your culture.” “Preach the Word.” God’s Word is settled in heaven forever. “Reprove,” he says, “rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine.” But these people have thrown that out. “No, we’re going to experience life together, you know, and I need to have a 21^st century Christianity.” Well, where would I find that in the Bible?

Tom: Dave, I want to take you back to a statement you made earlier when I gave you the scripture, Paul’s statement, “He became all things to all men that he might save some.” Now, you said he didn’t want to offend, but the gospel offends, doesn’t it? In other words, there’s one kind of offense, but there’s another kind. So what do you say to that?

Dave: Well, here’s what he says: “And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews. To them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law. To them that are without law, as without law (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ), that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak, became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men that I might by all means save some.” This is 1 Corinthians:9:20-22 [20] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; [21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. [22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
See All.... Well, he’s not saying that he’s converting to their religion, and he’s not saying that he is embracing their ideas, but I think he’s saying he’s understanding what they believe. How is he going to reach them if he doesn’t understand what they believe? You’re dealing with a cult member or another religion, don’t begin by telling them everything that’s wrong with it, ask them. You’ve been saying the same thing, Tom: ask them, find out what they believe, and then we can address that. So, I think this is what Paul is saying.