Is God's Truth Still Emerging? with Chris Quintana (Part 2)

Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. Thanks for joining us. In today’s program, Tom concludes his two-part series with guest, pastor and conference speaker Chris Quintana. Here’s TBC executive director Tom McMahon.

Tom: Thanks, Gary. Well, today we’re in our second part of a series (well, just two parts) in which we’re addressing the subject of the emergent church, the emergent church movement, and my guest for this discussion is Chris Quintana. He’s the pastor of Calvary Chapel Cypress, which is located in Orange County. Chris has been featured in the video series Wide Is the Gate, which is an apologetic documentary that deals with trends in the church that have drawn many Christians away from the Word of God. 

Chris, welcome back to Search the Scriptures 24/7.

Chris: Great to be with you. Thanks for having me back on! I appreciate it.

Tom: Chris, last week, kind of as a teaser, I mentioned that, you know, I’ve heard people say this, and people have influence in the church - good guys - they say, “Well, don’t worry about the emergent church. It’s just a fad. It’s just something that’s here today, gone tomorrow.” What do you say about that?

Chris: Well, what they’re peddling is something that’s been around for more than a millennium in their faith practice, and in their prayer and meditative practice, and even their arguments against orthodoxy go back to the same kinds of things that Paul was fighting. So to those people that like to try to say that, I just want them to remember that we have an enemy who detests us in ways we don’t understand. The devil hates us. We’ll never fully grasp it this side of heaven. So to somehow think that he doesn’t have a hand in this and that he’s using these things, then we’ve underestimated our enemy at that point.

Tom: Right. And thinking of an analogy here, those who surf recognize that when you’re out there waiting for a wave, they come in sets, and what a wave does is when it peaks, it drops its debris on the beach, and then it withdraws itself. So you have certain things that are planted, some things that are drawn back, but then you’re gonna get the next wave, and then the next wave, and this is a part of it, as far as I’m concerned. And it’s a particular concern - that’s why I’m using, maybe, this analogy - it’s affecting young people. They’re seeing something new, something different. And we’re seeing individuals - as we mentioned last week - people like Brian McLaren, who had a very conservative evangelical background (Plymouth Brethren), and so he knows what the truth is. He got it as - I think he was also a youth pastor, but now he’s turned from that almost to the point of being an apostate. The very things that he talks about with regard to the Scripture, the things that he addresses are antithetical to the Scriptures from the get-go. I mean, they’re just appalling, and we talked about some of that just between the two of us, but we mentioned some as well last week.

So it’s not going away. It’s just one other element that deals with a segment of Christianity, believing Christianity. It’s impacting…

Chris, I’ll just mention this: I was asked to speak at a church in - actually, a couple of churches invited me to the San Jose area to talk about the emergent church. And one of the reasons they had me come down was that although they were conservative churches, they found that their young people were caravanning, basically, over the hill to Santa Cruz (not too far from San Jose) where Dan Kimball was  - he was a part of the Santa Cruz Bible Church as the youth pastor, and then he had a little offshoot of that, which was particularly emergent. And people were attracted to that because of - you know, new things! Candles, incense, darkened room, prayer altars - he looked to much of the rituals and devices that were used in the Catholic Church, High Episcopal, Lutheran…you know, these kinds of what we would call “bells and smells,” and the young people, they - “Hey, this is something new! This is something different,” especially if they didn’t come up through, you know, as I did, 30-some years a Roman Catholic. They didn’t have that experience, so this was a new experience for them.

Chris, we even saw that in the city of Bend here, which isn’t that large, but young people were caravanning over to Portland, because you had emergent churches there that were doing all kinds of new things. You know, they had the Jesus painter. Somebody during the worship service would have a canvas, and he would paint these images. Very talented young people, but bogus as far as worship is concerned.

Chris: Right. Long as you’ve been walking with the Lord, think about how many different incarnations, if you will, of the church you’ve seen. Unfortunately, it becomes like this: if we want to use analogous things, a person that is taking some particular drug over time builds an immunity to it, so you have to go from one thing to the next, something that’s stronger, because what you have been doing has just kind of lost its ability. So we see that happening in the church. It always deals with aesthetics, or it deals with messaging, it deals with sensual things. You had mentioned worship - it’s one of the things that I say to worship leaders when I get a chance to talk with them here at our church: I think it would be important if we had at all times considered, “What would it be like if a person came into the church and didn’t have eyesight?” All that they could do was take away from what goes on here what they hear. 

Or if it’s a worship song, have you just seen it in print without music and without any other trappings? Content is the issue, and so if content is lacking, then you become much more beholden to what you can see with your eyes, or whatever is sensory. So the church that is really still alive, spiritually speaking, hasn’t really changed a lot in the 2,000 years since the Scripture was written, because that is what motivates everything that they do. The Scripture, all of it - not just a verse here or a verse there that makes you build a church upon that thought. You’ve seen it. You’ve watched it happen over these decades: the church has gone through a whole lot of changes, and every once in a while they’ve got to retool things, because people have become accustomed to it. So…

Tom: Right. Well, that’s what makes a new thing so attractive, especially to young people. They don’t want to be bored, you know? I mean, that’s…I almost bite my tongue when I say that, because the Word of God, boring? That’s why we have marketing departments at Christian publishers trying to come up with new devices to get people excited when the Word of God - there’s nothing better.

But, Chris, let me go back to what we mentioned last week with regard to the emergent church and different aspects of it, how it got started. Now, for those who missed last week, I encourage you to go back and hear the program. We’re talking about the emergent church;we’re talking about people coming together, particularly influencing young people to try and cozy up to the culture according to their perspective so that they can witness, so that they can be effective witnesses, and so on. But it goes way beyond that. It’s almost - as we mentioned last week, Chris, when you’re trying to change Christianity to accommodate the culture, and then all of a sudden there’s no difference, then what’s the point?

Chris: Right.

Tom: That’s a big problem. But, you know, in the ‘60s, I’m thinking about the aspect of…we mentioned Dan Kimball looking to rituals, looking to incense, looking to these sensual kinds of things to encourage young people. Well, back in the ‘60s, some of the biggest names in Campus Crusade were individuals like Pete Gillquist and Jack Sparks, and there were others. And, Chris, I don’t know if you’re aware of this, but back then, they were doing pretty much the same thing. They wanted to see more of the sensual aspects of Christianity, and they actually left Campus Crusade to start their own movement, and it was called the Evangelical Orthodox Church in which they decided they wanted to wear the vestments, they wanted to really bring orthodoxy - not in terms of true biblical Christianity, but in terms of the Greek or Russian Orthodox Church. So they started there, didn’t do well, and then these individuals - and it wasn’t just the two that I mentioned, there were a number of these guys - they actually joined the American Orthodox Church and became priests and so on. Pete Gillquist died a couple years ago, but this was a shocker, I would think, you know? But it’s one of the aspects of how the adversary works to get - you know, as we’ve been talking about - to get the influence, the anti-biblical influence…you know, “Yea, hath God said…? No, come on, God didn’t really mean it. Let’s do it this way or that way or whatever,” and so on. But were you familiar with Gillquist or Jack Sparks?

Chris: Sure. What I find - this is so ironic when you think about it: a bunch of Protestant guys want to go back and take all of the mystical spirituality of Catholicism and still go with the most liturgical of the old order that they can find, and really, ultimately, they found the first people that would have them. So it’s such a bizarre thing that people who should know better romanticize what is really a very dead religious practice of mysticism that’s really Eastern in its orientation, and not Christian at all.

Tom: Yeah. I mean, Jack Sparks, to mention just one of these guys, wrote, as I understand, a very effective book back then on the cults. So he evidently wasn’t reading his own writing. I don’t know.

Chris: Exactly. Yeah, you know, you laugh just because it’s so sad! You can’t believe it. It’s one of those disbelief - how can somebody go from knowing to the place where they are enticed by such things? And if anything, that should serve as a warning to us to at all times be watchful, which is exactly what Jesus says to the church at Sardis, who had become dead. It’s a church that’s in the stages of dying with dead people in the church, and yet a few remain. To those He says, “Be watchful.” And so that’s really the only way…hey, we’ve got to remember the devil’s got a hundred different ways to go here that will try to entice us in a different direction, and there is only one that is tried and true, and that is the one that is scriptural. All 66 books will tell you the nature of God and how to walk with Him without trying to depend upon our own wisdom of what church should look like.

Tom: Mm-hmm. Chris, I love young people. I have five children; they’re in their early 30s and 20s, and you know, I see among this upcoming generation a heart that, you know, many - they want to do the right thing. They want to please the Lord, they want to be challenged, and so on. So please, folks, don’t think I’m writing off this whole upcoming generation. There are a lot of issues, and many of the issues have to do with what my generation is promoting. 

One of the things that has come into the church - we mentioned it last week - is the whole marketing aspect: the seeker-friendly, seeker-sensitive church. And so I would like somebody to show me where marketing, where it’s come into the church and trying to promote things like Bibles and so on, hasn’t really poisoned the water. It’s an effect that - it really is destructive, not only in the long run, but the short run. 

But my point here is that some people say, “Well, marketing, that’s seeker-friendly. This emergent movement, they’re looking for authentic spirituality. They’re looking for the kinds of things that will draw people closer to the Lord.”

Well, wait a minute: if you take a closer look at this, you find that the emerging church movement is just the other side of the coin with regard to marketing. Going back to Dan Kimball, for example, he was looking for something that might really get his young people - as a youth pastor - get them going, and because what he was doing previously was…you know, you could walk into Willow Creek or any church that has a venue for their young people, and check out the music. We’re talking about a light show; we’re talking about rock music to the max, and some young people were saying, “Oh, no, no, no, we want something more spiritual.” Well, this is what Dan provided for them, but it was just - well, wait a minute, this is a consumer mentality, right, Chris? “Let’s give them what they want, something to make them feel good,” but not the truth. 

Chris: Yes, exactly. Well, most people, if you walked up to them and showed them a picture of Rick Warren, they could identify him. If you went up and showed them a picture of Bill Hybels, they probably couldn’t, and yet I would say that Bill Hybels is every bit as much able to steer the direction of the church as Rick Warren is, and that’s because his is much more a church planting mechanism. And you, basically, if you see…pretty much most all of the major churches that you see, these mega-churches that you find all over the place either have some direct tie or they have learned their program from somebody that was doing Willow Creek. And the way that he started that was to go into the area around Bloomington, Illinois there just outside Chicago, and he was going door to door in the area around them and saying, “Well, why is it that you don’t go to church?” And so he built a church for the “unchurched” - one of the euphemisms, one of the many euphemisms, that you hear used constantly. So they wanted to be incarnational, intentional - this is all the stuff that the emergents talk about. They speak in code that is hard to follow, but he’s the one who started that whole thing: let’s build a church for the unchurched. So, yeah, they really do look quite cookie cutter.

Tom: And then the irony of that: a pastor on their staff writes a book doing a marketing survey of their own church, and said, “Hey, we’ve blown it!” So Bill Hybels comes out and says, “Yeah, we really did. We should have been teaching the the Word of God.” 

Now, you’d say, “Voila! Epiphany! Great!” Nothing’s changed; it’s just more of the same. And with regard to the emerging church movement, both Bill and his wife Lynne, they’re very much into social justice and solving, you know, very much like Rick Warren’s global peace plan: “We’re going to solve the problems of the world, and we’re going to work with whoever we need to work with to get these problems solved.” 

You know, it appeals to the flesh, and the world jumps on it, thinking, “Well, okay, at least they’re doing something right,” but they’re not! This is antithetical to the Word of God.

Chris: Exactly. I’m glad you brought up Lynne, because most people, if they can’t pick out Bill Hybels, they can’t pick out Lynne, but Lynne is probably one of the most outspoken advocates for the Palestinian cause and is very anti-Israel. I find it such an interesting thing: when you survey those churches, and if you were to go into the biggest mega-churches that you find, the very much emerging kinds of churches, and you start to talk to them about eschatology, they’ll look at you like you’re speaking a different language. Or if you talk to them about the belief in the personal work of the Holy Spirit, they’re going to look at you kind of weird. If you start talking to them about repentance - “Is repentance necessary, and why is it not taught?” - when you start talking about what is foundational to the church, they’re lost! So that tells you what has happened as far as the church is concerned. They’re no longer speaking about doctrinal and theological things, though they tell you they are. “Well, we’re evangelical. We’re this and we’re that,” but there’s no message! So if people don’t have the belief in the imminent return of Jesus Christ, then they’re going to get real hunkered down in the world, and I think that tells you a lot about the condition of the church. They’re not thinking the Lord’s returning any time soon.

Tom: Exactly.

Chris: They’re building His kingdom.

Tom: Yeah, and it’s a problem. The kingdom doesn’t start until the King returns, and everything else is a delusion. It’s - it may sound good to some people, but it’s, as we’ve been saying, it’s not according to the Scriptures.

Now, Chris, the emerging church movement, it has a relativistic perspective, especially with regard to the authority of the Scriptures. They don’t want authority, and they’re playing to an audience, you know, not that every generation didn’t have its rebels. I mean, look, unless you’re born again, you’re going to be a rebel. I mean, that’s the deal.

Now, I want you to comment on these quotes from Leonard Sweet. We talked about him last week a bit, and Brian McLaren, who we’ve mentioned, but let’s start with Leonard Sweet. This is what he says: “People today are starved, not for doctrines, but for images and relationships and stories.” Quick comment on that, Chris.

Chris: Yeah, well, there’s the fastest way to destroy a generation of Christians is to take away from the Word of God and say things that sound good to the senses, that sound good to the sensibilities is another way. Everything can become an idiom, everything just has some anecdotal story to it, but the Word doesn’t stand on its own, because to them, there is no such thing as absolute truth.

Tom: Mm-hmm, right. Now, let’s take that over to his buddy - I don’t know if they know each other; I’m sure they do. They’ve probably been on the same platforms together - this is Brian McLaren that I’m referring to, folks. This is what he says: “Perhaps we need a five-year moratorium on making doctrinal pronouncements. In the meantime, we’ll practice prayerful Christian dialogue; listening respectfully, disagreeing agreeably; and when decisions need to be made, they’ll be admittedly provisional. We’ll keep our ears attuned to the scholars in biblical studies, theology, ethics, psychology, genetics, sociology, and related fields. Then in five years, if we have clarity, we’ll speak. If not, we’ll set another five years for ongoing reflection.” What do you say to that?

Chris: I’m fascinated by this. Notice how it degrades in the things that should be informing our view. Look at what he says: it starts with biblical studies, theology, ethics. And then look at the downward slide: psychology, genetics, sociology, and related fields. What in the world does that have to do with understanding the Scripture and how to walk rightly before God? You’re encumbering yourself with so much worldliness in that. So detach one from the other: we are first and foremost to walk honorably and rightly before God, and then the things of the culture are things that don’t inform us and change our belief system - that’s how we engage. We have to have those things in place, but I just…he has become so overly simplistic when it comes to knowledge, and he mocks it. 

I have a quote from a book that he wrote a couple of chapters in - it was called The Emergent Manifesto of Hope, and boy, you talk about mind-numbing! But his point is that epistemology, or how we understand truth, we Christians, we take it from the Scripture. And then he condescends to say, “Well, those people aren’t nuanced. Nuanced people will not oversimplify it by just things written down in a book. We will take it from any variety of sources,” which is exactly the same thing that he is saying here.

Tom: Mm-hmm. Well, what these guys aren’t aware of (I’m sure they’re not), but they’re fulfilling prophecy! They’re fulfilling a prophecy - I’m thinking about 2 Timothy:4:3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
See All...: “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.” And, folks, I couldn’t give you a better example of that, although there are examples that are pervasive, sadly, throughout the church today.

So, Chris, in the short time that we have left, knowing that the Bible tells us these things are going to take place, and in fact, they’re going to grow worse as the time of our Lord’s return draws near, what should our marching orders be? How should believers respond, especially regarding our ministering to this upcoming generation?

Chris: You know, it’s actually so much simpler than most people would think. Anything that you hear anybody purporting themselves to be a spokesman for God, take every single thing that they say and put it under the microscope of the Word of God, and if they are in contradiction of that, just dismiss them out of hand. I mean, I could not be more hostile toward that whole line of thinking that somehow men know better than God. And just remember that history is not only - it’s unfolding in front of our eyes in a New Testament sense; I would say more importantly we want to take in conjunction with that what the Old Testament says. 

Just last Sunday night, we started the Book of Zephaniah, and I just want to read two verses from the first chapter which will blow your mind. You’ve read them before, but I mean, as it’s germane to what we’re talking about here. What God says to these people when He’s talking about the priests and the way that the worship was taking place at Jerusalem - in Judah in particular there - [Zephaniah] 1:6 says: “Those who have turned their back from following the Lord, and have not sought the Lord, nor enquired of Him.” So the Word no longer means anything to them, and they’re not seeking Him because they’re not interested in His opinion. And then it goes on further when God has more to say about them in verse 12, and it says: “And it shall come to pass at that time that I will search Jerusalem with lamps,” and He’s talking to them about their pending destruction, and the reason for it was what we read in verse 6. Look at what He says after this: He says, “And I will punish the men who have settled in complacency, who say in their heart, ‘The Lord will not do good, the Lord will not do evil.’” So we’re not really responsible to a God who holds men accountable to their actions; He’s not going to do good or bad, He’s not really all that engaged. Boy, is that not what we’re hearing today?

Tom: Right. Right, and as you say, Chris, the answer - I’m talking about true believers who are listening to us today - to exhort, to encourage, it’s the Word of God. Diligence…Jesus said, “Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and you don’t do the things that I say?” So it isn’t just a matter of filling our head with doctrines, as important as they are; we have to live these things out in our lives. We have to have the fruit of the Spirit manifested in our lives. This is the preventative program. This is the antidote. This is the solution, and God has called every one of us individually. You don’t get saved by a denomination or a church or whatever. We don’t come collectively, okay? Although we love the body of Christ, nevertheless, this is what we need to do. And you know, Chris, I keep preaching familiarity with the Word of God, but then doing it, what you know, and let Scripture interpret Scripture. So I can’t think of anything…as we’ve been trying to say here, yeah, there’s a lot of confusion, delusion, all of that stuff out there, but you can cut through it, and you can only do it “not by might nor by power,” but by the Spirit of God, and through God’s manual, His instruction manual that we have.

So, Chris, thanks for being with us! I’m confident that it’s going to bless a lot of people. So until we do it again, Chris, thanks so much.

Chris: Praise the Lord. Thank you.

Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7 with T.A. McMahon, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter, contact us at P.O. Box 7019 Bend, Oregon 97708. Call us at 800-937-6638, or visit our website at thebereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael. We’re glad you could tune in, and we hope you can join us again next week. Until then, we encourage you to Search the Scriptures 24/7.