Is Psychology Ungodly Counsel?

Tom: You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him.

If you’re a first-time listener or viewer, or perhaps you haven’t tuned in for a while, the topic we’ve been discussing for a number of weeks now is this first segment of our program is Psychology and the Church.

Dave, last week, as you know, we were discussing the men who were considered the pillars of psychotherapy: Sigmund Freud, Carl Jung, Carl Rogers, Abraham Maslow, and others. And we were doing that in light of Psalm 1, particularly regarding verse 1: “Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly.” And then we reviewed the lives of these men, and it wasn’t pretty. Extramarital affairs, drug abuse, depression, heavy occultism, sexual perversion, suicide, and on and on.

Dave: They are definitely the ungodly!

Tom: Yeah, and yet the world, and now professing Christians, are to look to them for solutions to solve their problems of living? That alone is a bit of lunacy!

Dave, what I would like to do in this segment is to get back on solid ground. We looked at Psalm:1:1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
See All... to underscore the admonition, again, that we are not to walk in the counsel of the ungodly.

Dave: Now, let me just interrupt here, Tom. I want to make sure that all the listeners get the application, because these ungodly men, that’s the basis of Christian psychology. So Christian psychologists are literally “walking in the counsel of the ungodly,” and bringing it into the church, and justifying it under the idea, “Well, all truth is God’s truth.” Freud had some, and Rogers—well, they’ve got more than that as far as these men are concerned. It’s the foundation of Christian psychology. It didn’t come out of the Bible, it came out of the godless writings of these ungodly men.

Tom: Dave, I listened to a classic interview that you had with Walter Martin, and I would say Walter definitely favored Christian psychology, and so on. That’s the impression I got from the interview—and by the way, if our listeners would like to hear that interview, we have it posted on our website.

Dave: Let me explain just a little bit about it. Walter and I had a number of disagreements: psychotherapy, acupuncture, hypnosis, and a few other things. But anyway, he invited me to come on his program, and he said, “We’ll just talk about things that we agree on.” Well, they were going to ambush me, and I brought nothing. I got no notes—I had my Bible. And here come his staff with stacks of stuff! They had been investigating and trying to find some flaw in what I teach. They had a lot of criticism.

Tom: Well, it had to do with The Seduction of Christianity. They were pretty upset with the way we went about the book and some of the individuals that we addressed in the book because they were friends, in a sense. So go ahead.

Dave: No, that’s okay. But anyway, so it turned out, no, that wasn’t what it was about at all. He seemed to be trying to trip me up or shoot me down, I don’t know. I haven’t listened to it.

Tom: But, Dave, the impression you get from listening to the tape, I mean, you’re very gracious to him and he seems gracious to you on the air; but, you know, he had some tough questions for you. But anyway, it’s worth listening to. If anybody wants to listen to it, we have it posted, as I said, on our website. You might find it interesting.

Dave, to go back to this, we are not to walk in the counsel of the ungodly. And I find it—oh, I guess the point I was trying to make with regard to Walter Martin, you guys discussed “all truth is God’s truth,” and he was really hammering that idea, that there is truth out there. But the thing I find almost ironic is that whoever brings that, they never talk about the other issues: the ungodliness of these men, the concepts, how anti-Biblical they are. But somehow we’re going to find some kernel or some nugget of truth with regard to what they say? Although these men, as we’ve pointed out in the last couple of weeks, you couldn’t prove it by their lives.

Dave: Now, Tom, you remember what happened at Dallas Theological Seminary. I used to speak over there now and then, believe it or not.

Tom: That was way back.

Dave: Yeah, way back. And this was a brown bag lunch, and the students would bring their lunch and then they would sit in during their lunch hour and get someone talking to them. And I was talking about psychology—what made me think of it is what you just said—and I said, “Well, why dredge through the muck and mire of psychological theories to come up with some golden nugget of truth?” And everybody started laughing. I didn’t realize that I had just made a little faux pas—it was a Freudian slip!—because two of their heroes there were Minirth and Meier.

Tom: Well, Dave, they weren’t just their heroes, those men were on staff. They were involved in the, believe it or not, in the pastoral counseling department.

Dave: Right, Christian psychiatrists.

Tom: Exactly.

Dave: Yeah, so anyway…

Tom: Well, what I’d like to do is go through Psalm 1. Let’s go through it line by line. I’ll read the entire Psalm; it’s only six verses. But I want to get away from, you know, as you said, the “muck and mire” here. I want to get into what God’s Word says, because that’s what we’re encouraging in this series of programs: that God’s Word is sufficient, and all of this is, at least, undermining the sufficiency of God’s Word.

Dave: By the way, “walk not in the counsel of the ungodly, or standeth in the way of sinners, or sitteth on the seat of the scornful.” And Watchman Nee wrote what, as I recall, was a pretty good book called, Sit, Walk, Stand, and he took it from this passage.

Tom: Okay. Well, to begin, Psalm:1:1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
See All...: “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, not sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in His law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”

Dave: Tom, there’s an awful lot in that Psalm.

Tom: There is, and I’d like to go over them, Dave. I mean, I think—let’s spend some really fruitful time in regard to what the Lord has to say.

So, “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.”

Now Dave, I think there’s a progression here. If we’re listening to the counsel of the ungodly, then we are hanging out with sinners. We are, maybe, taking in what they have to say, and then I think that’s going to turn our heart. Then when we hear the truth, wouldn’t that make me scornful? “Oh, well, you know, that’s not for me. Or that’s too legalistic,” or one thing or another.

Dave: Yeah, well, you’re walking along. You apparently have something in common, maybe going in the same direction, and you’re having fellowship with one another. “Standeth”—now you’ve stopped. “Standeth in the way of sinners.” And then the next thing you know, well, this is going on and on. I need to sit! “Sitteth in the seat of the scornful.”

Paul says in 2 Thessalonians:3:2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
See All..., he asks for prayer that the “Lord will deliver me,” he says, “from wicked and unreasonable men, for all men have not faith.” If you don’t have faith in God, you’re going to be wicked. You’re surely unreasonable, and that’s what’s happening,

Tom, in this progression that you mentioned here, pretty soon you’re…. Well, you know, the Lord sat me next to a man—I had three and a half hours, maybe four hours with him, and I won’t go into the details because he is quite well-known here in our town of Bend. But, wow! Hatred of God. Professing Christian, active in a church until the age of 15 when he got turned off. You picked me up at the airport, and I told you a little bit about him. But scornful? I’m going to keep working with this man, by God’s grace, and he seems to be willing. But I can tell you, Tom, the average Christian, sitting there listening to him, would have just wilted completely, because he’s been thinking about this for years. In fact, he was reading The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

Tom: Well, Dave, you know, you told me about it. It sounds very much like another one of your divine appointments because—well, I’ll tell our audience, for those who don’t know, you’re writing a book on this very subject.

Dave: Yeah, it’s amazing, Tom. There are hundreds of these divine appointments, and every time—not every time, but almost—I say, “Lord, I don’t know how you do it.” I was on a plane that I shouldn’t have been on, in fact, but I don’t get unhappy. I was supposed to fly from Toronto to Dulles, and I’m on United, and I fly so many miles so they put me in first class. I have a nice first-class seat non-stop all the way across the country to Portland, but it is snowing heavily in Dulles. You can’t go through there. You can’t even get through Chicago. I have to fly Delta. I’m a nobody on Delta. Anyway, I get no favoritism. But it was a long day, and I’m on a plane that I shouldn’t have been on, leaving a city that I shouldn’t have been in. The same with this gentleman. He had a tough time. He should have been home the day before. He’s not too happy about that. He’s on a plane he shouldn’t have been on, and so forth. So, anyway—and I told him, I’m not bashful in saying that, I told him— here’s this atheist. I said, “Look, I often tell people I can prove the existence of God by who He sits me next to on airplanes.” And I said, “You can’t say we’re not sitting here together having this conversation because this is what God wanted us to be doing. He put us together.” Well, he couldn’t really argue. He tried to kind of stutter a little bit, and I said, “Look, you think anybody else on this plane is having a conversation like this? Where would you have found someone like me who is going to stand up to you and give you the reasons why what you are saying is not true?”

Tom: Based on the very book he’s got in his lap.

Dave: Well, part of it. “And where would I find someone as interested as you are in this subject that is so dear to my heart?” And at one point, Tom, it’s going on and on and I thought, I’m getting nowhere. This guy is just a scorner, and I’m kind of trying to back off a little bit so I can get back to doing some work, and he persists. He keeps at it!

So anyway, that’s just an example. There are scorners and those who don’t have faith, and they can be very wicked. Oh, he was vicious in some of the things he said about Jesus and Christianity and the Bible. So anyway…

Tom: Well, Dave, let me quote 2 Timothy:2:24-26 [24] And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, [25] In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; [26] And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
See All..., because I think it’s appropriate to this: “And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.”

Dave: Yeah, how do you fall into the clutches of Satan? Well, you reject the truth. It’s that simple. Reject the truth. I mean, this man is really in the clutches of Satan—hates God. Dawkins, of course, hates God. And Dawkins—I don’t think we’ve talked about him on this program, maybe we have, but we won’t get into that. But anyway, he’s really the leader of a group of people who call themselves the “new atheists.” What’s new about them? Because atheists in the past were kind of passive, weren’t evangelistic about their atheism. These guys are evangelistic, and they say that belief in God is not only stupid, it is wicked. That’s the term they use: it needs to be stamped out! He’s one of them!

Tom: Well, Dave, tell them about the website. Not our website, by the way!

Dave: No, not our website, no. But, well, these guys have put out a DVD. It’s called, The God Who Wasn’t There, and it’s vicious, as well. Quite well done. You have to give them credit. They’re bright people. It’s done by a man who was once a professing Christian. I meet them everywhere, Tom. These are apostates. They never were saved, but they professed to be saved.

He attended a large Christian school, I guess, through grammar and up through high school in the San Fernando Valley in the Los Angeles area. They move the camera to a particular seat in the chapel, and he says, “Well, this is where I was sitting the first time I got born again. Haha!” Then he moves it to another seat and, “Well, this is where I was sitting the second time I got born again.” I don't know, was it three times? I don’t remember, Tom, but he’s mocking. He’s scorning.

And then they offer people, “Look, Jesus said the unforgivable, unpardonable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. You get in front of the camera and you send us the video, and you renounce the Holy Spirit. You blaspheme the Holy Spirit so you are assuring yourself of going to hell, and send that to us, and we’ll send you a free copy of this DVD, The God Who Wasn’t There.”

And if I’m not mistaken, although I don’t think Dawkins is in it, but I believe Sam Harris, one of his buddies, is in it. So that’s….

Tom, I’m glad you pursued this a little bit, because this is staggering that Christians, Christians, in order to become psychologists or psychiatrists, have studied these guys—not only studied them, but been deluded by them, and are bringing that into the church! They look upon them as the great masters.

In fact, let me quote again what I quoted a couple of weeks ago. This is Bruce Narramore, nephew of Clyde Narramore, who really is the godfather of Christian psychology in America, and founder of the Rosemead Graduate School of Psychology right there, right in conjunction with Biola University, which once upon a time was a church. It came out of what was the church of J. Vernon McGee, Church of the Open Door, in downtown Los Angeles.

And Bruce Narramore said, “It was humanistic psychologists Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers who first made us aware of the need for self-love and self-esteem.” Now, that is not biblical, it is detrimental. It’s destructive of the Christian life. Self-love and self-esteem, that’s contrary to what the Bible teaches, and yet they have brought this in to the church. It’s staggering, Tom!

Tom: Well, again, “Blessed is the man who walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly.” But let’s go to verse 2: “But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and in his law doth he meditate day and night.” And what’s the fruit of that, Dave? Verse 3…

Dave: Tom, I think we should stop there, okay?

Tom: Okay.

Dave: You’re going too fast, Tom! We’re not going to get through this today.

Tom: Well, I do want to, you know…I want to get out of this what God has for us in it.

Dave: “Delighteth.” “His delight is in the law of the Lord.” Now, that’s not, “Oh, I read my Bible this morning.” I’m not opposed to Bible reading programs, and you do it. You read through the Bible frequently; I’m not opposed to that. But sometimes you can be so concerned about getting through the Bible you don’t have time to delight….

Tom, as I read the Bible—I was raised on the Bible as an infant, as a child. As I have often said, I never tried to memorize the Bible, I just remember it. I mean, I heard it so often. My father, every time we would start on a trip, he would read the prayer of Moses, the man of God, Psalm 90 and 91. Well, I can quote Psalm 90 and 91 because I heard it so often. I can quote Psalm 1 and Psalm 2. I heard it over and over and over! But when I read, I see more and more new things that delight me. I say, “God, this is fantastic! This is your Word! It couldn’t be anybody else’s word. No man could have written this. You inspired the men who wrote this.”

So we need to take some delight in the law of the Lord, “and in his law doth he meditate day and night.” So read through the Bible, yes, but also meditate on it.

Tom: Absolutely, Dave, and I think my concern is, just from observation, as you can see, we are living in a visual society. Nobody wants to read anymore. So I cry out to Christians, many of whom, sadly, are biblically illiterate. The only Bible they get is when they go to church, and too often that’s just topical stuff, hit and miss kinds of things. But my concern is that—at least get familiar with it, and then go back.

Dave: Yeah. Tom, “his delight is in the law of the Lord.” These Christian psychologists—I’m sorry, I’m going to anger some of them out there; I’m sorry, just take it as the truth and admit it—they have not delighted themselves in the law of the Lord. If they had delighted themselves in the law of the Lord, they wouldn’t need to go to Freud and Jung and Rogers. And in our seminaries today, they wouldn’t take you through psychology in order to counsel from the Bible. In order to counsel from the Bible, pastors are getting a PhD in psychology. That doesn’t make sense.

And I will quote again—James Dobson, in his magazine, he said (as I recall), “Christian psychology is a worth profession for any young Christian to go into, provided their faith is strong enough to withstand the humanism to which they will be exposed.”

Now, Tom, why do I have to expose myself to humanism in order to learn how to counsel from the Bible if Christian psychology comes from the Bible? Which we’re showing that it doesn’t, and it’s a violation of Psalm 1 very clearly.