Do Catholics Pray to Mary or Not?

Tom: You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. Now if you’ve joined us for the first time, and you’re not familiar with the program, it is called Search the Scriptures Daily. Dave, is that just a terrific title that I made up? Do I get credit for that?

Dave: Well, that’s what we try to encourage our listeners to do: check us out from the Bible, and, in the process . . .

Tom: So is this your idea? Search the Scriptures?

Dave: No, it comes from . . . Well, it’s where the name of our ministry comes from.

Tom: The Berean Call.

Dave: The Berean Call. The Bereans, in Acts:17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
See All..., it says “They were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind and searched the scriptures daily to see whether those things were so”—that is, what Paul was teaching them. So, if they were commended for checking Paul out from the Scriptures—by the way, that would be the Old Testament scriptures. That’s all they had, and Paul said in Romans 1, “I am preaching the gospel of God which he promised before by his prophets.” So you could check him out from the Old Testament, because the New Testament is the fulfillment of the Old. And if Christ did not fulfill the prophecies concerning the Messiah, then He is not the Messiah.

But the point that you are making is, we need to search the Scriptures. We need to know the Bible better. If you know the Bible well enough, you can’t be deceived, because all the answers are right in there.

Tom: Right. And some of the errors that we find out there in the church, outside the church, those who claim to be leaders in the church—they’re all not that difficult to discern. But also, Dave, Paul must have come into the city of Berea, which was in Greece, with a reputation. So it’s almost like, “Hey, look who’s come into town! He must know what he is talking about. He’s got the credentials, he has the background. And he was a Pharisee!”

Dave: A Pharisee of the Pharisees, he said.

Tom: Exactly! So these people weren’t wowed and overwhelmed by his reputation. They did what was highly commendable. It said, “they were more noble minded, more fair minded.” They did what we all ought to do, and that’s why we have this program.

Dave: Indeed, Tom, it’s one of the many places in the Bible that shows you don’t have to consult a rabbi, you don’t have to consult the pope, or the magisterium, or a priest. You don’t have to have a seminary education, a Doctor of Divinity, or whatever. You simply need to go to the scriptures and study them. And any ordinary person can understand what the Bible has to say.

Now, these were not Christians. These were Greeks. The Jews had rejected Christ.

They chased him [Paul] out of Thessalonica. He comes to Berea, in the north of Greece. And we need to search the Scriptures daily. There are so many people who simply . . . they leave it up to the pastor. Let him be a man of God, let him study the Word, and let him come forth every Sunday morning and give us a three- or four-point sermon—don’t let it be too long. And then we’ve gotten our “spiritual nourishment” for the week. We’ll come back again next Sunday.

The scriptures are our food, if you are saved, if you are born again. If you’re not, this will lead you to life in Christ; this will give you the gospel whereby you will come to life in Christ and then that spiritual life is to be nourished by the Word of God. Jesus even quoted it in the temptation in the wilderness you remember, from Deuteronomy 8: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God.” Jeremiah said, “Your word was found and I did eat it. I count it more than my necessary food.”

Tom: Dave, back to the temptation. How did he deal with Satan time and time again? “It is written. It is written.”

Dave: Yes, but if you don’t know what is written, then you can’t do that.

Tom: Exactly. Now, Dave, we don’t have anything against good scholarship. We don’t have anything against good teachers. The Lord has raised up terrific teachers, but the responsibility is with everyone who hears what they have to say. It’s the Holy Spirit that really quickens—that really gives understanding. And a man, a woman, a child of God, must go on the basis of their convictions, not on the basis of what Dave Hunt says, or T. A. McMahon, or whoever else is out there.

Dave: And the conviction comes from studying the Bible for yourself.

Tom: Right.

Dave: Well, we just want to encourage that.

Tom: Well, let’s get right to our first question. Again, if you’re a listener for the first time, these questions we are taking from Dave Hunt’s book In Defense of the Faith. It’s sort of a syllabus. It’s worked that way and it’s been very convenient for us.

Dave, you’ve received all kinds of questions through your life of ministry, and you’ve put many of them in this book, In Defense of the Faith.

Dave: Mm-hmm, right, and we try and answer some of the questions that have troubled many people.

Tom: Yeah! This questioner asks, “I can’t seem to get a straight answer from my Catholic friends concerning prayers to the saints. They seem ambivalent on the subject. Some admit they pray to Mary, while others deny it. What is the truth?”

Dave: We’ve been dealing with prayer for several weeks, now. In this section of the book, all of the questions are about prayer. Well, Catholic apologists generally deny that they offer prayers to Mary. I’ve had them say that to me: “Oh we don’t pray to Mary. We just ask her to pray for us. We don’t pray to the saints.” Tom, you were a Catholic . . .

Tom: Okay, let me just interject this. We have Catholic apologists, and some of them are cradle Catholics, but most of them it seems are those who have converted Roman Catholicism. I can say this to many, many Catholics out there—not just “give me your best answer,” but “give me your honest answer”: we prayed to Mary over and over—well, you’re going to get into some of it, but this was our experience; this was our heart.

Dave: In the response, here, I mentioned that at this time (this was several years ago, when the book was written), on the cover of the official magazine of the Christian Booksellers Association . . . By the way . . .

Tom: This was supposed to be evangelical.

Dave: That’s right. By the way, you go to the Christian Booksellers’ Convention, and, Tom, you’ve got all kinds of Catholic books, paraphernalia; you can pick up books about Padre Pio, who supposedly bled from five wounds, the stigmata. People saw him in several locations at once. This was a man who claimed that more spirits of the dead visited him than living people, and the other monks in the monastery claimed that they heard many, many voices at night talking to him. He said they were coming from purgatory on their way to heaven to thank him for having suffered for their sins to release them from purgatory!

So the suffering of Christ was not sufficient, but the suffering of Padre Pio would get them out! In fact, he tells how as a young monk he asked the Superior in the monastery for permission: “Could I be permitted to suffer for the sins of the world?”

Now Jesus Christ suffered for the sins of the world. He alone could, because He alone is sinless. He, who knew no sin, was made sin for us. He became the sin sacrifice. But the head of the monastery said, “Yes, yes, you have my permission!”

So Padre Pio, honored by the pope, by Pope John Paul II, Padre Pio bled from these five wounds, and he “suffered to pay for the sins of the world.” Anyway, that was just one book that you would find there at the Christian Booksellers’ Convention.

Tom: And you’re not talking about a unique thing. There were many Catholic publishers there. And this is growing and growing and growing. So it’s not “evangelical Protestant,” as it claims to be.

Dave: As it once was.

Tom: Yeah.

Dave: Yeah, well, anyway, so what I’m mentioning in the book here, In Defense of the Faith, the Christian Booksellers Association made this statement in a recent major article. It was featured on the cover of their official magazine, “Catholics only ask saints to pray for them just as we ask the living to pray for us.” Now, the author, Peter Kreeft,  himself a Catholic and university professor—he teaches at the University of Boston, which is a Catholic university—he made that statement. Now why would he say that? He certainly knows that that is not true. And this was promoted by the Christian Booksellers Journal, the official journal of the Christian Booksellers Convention.

Let me just give a few examples. Now the year 1988 was called the Marion Year, and you had a special prayer, and it was called “The Holy Father’s Prayer for the Marion Year.” This was the official prayer for all Catholics to Mary for an entire year. It came from the highest authority in the Roman Catholic Church. In it, Pope John Paul II never once asked Mary to pray for Catholics. Instead, he asked her to do what she would have to be God to do—to comfort, guide, strengthen, and protect the whole of humanity. And his prayer ended like this: “Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith, and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.”

Now, for Mary to do that—to sustain the whole human race, to protect them, and so forth, she would have to be God. The next question is—she’s going to obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation? This was the pope’s prayer. This was the official prayer prayed by Catholics, and as a former Catholic, you would know there are many prayers like that. I thought Jesus obtained our salvation on the cross. Isn’t He called the author of our salvation? This is what the scripture teaches. He obtained salvation for us. Why would you go to Mary? “Well, because she’s more . . . “

Tom: She’s the Mother of God, according to the Catholic Church.

Dave: That’s right! She’s more “sympathetic” and “easier to get to.” I’ve had Catholics—and we’re not trying to bash Catholics, now. We would like you to think! We would like you to consider very carefully. Let’s be honest with one another.

Tom: And check it out with God’s Word.

Dave: Check it out with God’s Word and check it out with the Catechism and the Canons and Decrees of the Councils. Why would you go to Mary? I’ve had Catholics say to me, “Well, I mean, if you want something from someone, you go to his mother, because she could surely get from him . . . ” Wait a minute! If you’re my friend, we’re friends, okay? If you want something from me, and instead of coming to me and asking me, you go to my mother—what does that say about our relationship? What does that say about our friendship? Why wouldn’t you come to me? Why would you go to her? This is an insult! I would take it as an insult. It’s an insult to our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who loved us. He died for our sins, didn’t He? Then, why would we think that Mary would be more sympathetic than He is?

In fact, both the II Vatican Council and the Catechism of the Catholic Church—this is approved by the Vatican—they refer to Mary as “the Mother of God, to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.” What? “The faithful fly to Mary for protection from all dangers and to supply all needs.” I’m sorry, she has to be God to do that!

Tom: Right, and this is an official teaching. This is from the Catholic Catechism. It’s from paragraph 971.

Dave: Tom, tell me—where . . . Now look, let’s be Bereans, okay? Here we are Bereans, and we’re going to search the scriptures to see whether what the Catholic Church says is true. You will search the scriptures—you can go from Genesis to Revelation, and you can look it over with a magnifying glass, and you will never, ever, ever find where anyone went to Mary to ask her to protect them, to comfort and care for them, to meet their needs—never once!

But there are many, many scriptures. The Psalms are full of it. The psalmists—they go to God. We’re to go to God. Why would I go to Mary? She’s not God. Can she protect me from everything? This is not going to Mary to ask her to pray for your protection. This is not going to Mary to ask her to go to God or to go to Jesus to pray for your protection. This is going to Mary. Let me quote it again, Tom. “The Mother of God” (this is both the Catholic Catechism and Vatican II), the Mother of God, to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.”

Now, she would have to know every person, where they are at every moment, at all times, in every place on this earth . . .

Tom: Simultaneously.

Dave: Simultaneously. Mary would have to have all power in heaven and in earth to reach out and do what is needed for these people, to protect them and to meet their needs. Wait a minute! You have elevated Mary to the position of God! In fact, you have elevated her above God, because she’s more sympathetic, and instead of going to God for your needs, you go to Mary! Now please, Catholics, if any Catholics are listening—don’t turn off your hearing aid. Don’t just shut us off. Be honest with yourself. Be honest with your church. This is not biblical. The Catholic Church has made Mary into something that the Mary of the Bible never was, never will be, was not intended to be. Jesus never made her this. Now, why would this happen? Because they want you to go to Mary! I’m sorry—they are taking you away from God, they are taking you away from Christ, and they are taking you away from His Word. He’s the one who died for your sins; He’s the one who meets your needs.

Tom: Dave, let me inject this. Growing up Roman Catholic—again, you mentioned Peter Kreeft. He was a convert to Roman Catholicism—but growing up Roman Catholic, this was all assumed. We had no problems with this. We elevated, in our minds and our hearts, Mary, to the position that you just mentioned. We assumed these things.

For example, the church talks about differences with regard to how we venerate Mary. One is called dulia—that is a veneration of the saints; you know, you just honor them for what they’ve done, and so on. You pray to them. You pray to them with your requests and so on. And then there is latria, which has to do with adoration of God. And in between those two there’s a term called hyperdulia, which is supposedly Mary somewhere between the adoration of God and the veneration of the saints; she is in that middle ground. Dave, I never understood that. And no one ever taught me that! I just grew up worshiping Mary honestly as a young child, as a young adult, and that was the term, and no one ever corrected me, or anybody that I knew, for our adoration of Mary.

Dave: Well, Tom, let me give you another quote. Well, here’s the pope—this was at the World Youth Day in Denver. He said, “Mary of the new advent [this is a prayer to Mary], we implore your protection on the preparations that will now begin for the next meeting [that is, for the next World Youth Day]. Mary, full of grace, we entrust the next World Youth Day to you. Mary, assumed into heaven, we entrust the young people of the world, we entrust the whole world to you.”

Tom, so it wasn’t just you as a child growing up. This was the pope. This was the language that he uses. Now, let me quote from one of the best-known books out there. It just contains prayers to Mary.

Tom: While you’re doing that, let me just interject this quickly, because this is right along that line. Every Catholic knows—and non-Catholics know “Hail, Mary.” And when you say that they know about the rosary, you can see them hanging from people’s rear view mirrors . . .

Dave: Right.

Tom: . . . in cars driving by. But there are 153 prayers to Mary. Saying the “Hail, Mary,” and another one, “Hail, Holy Queen.” But in the “Hail, Mary”—this is what the catechism has to say about that: “The liturgical feast dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer such as the rosary, an epitome of the whole gospel.”

Dave: There’s no gospel in the rosary.

Tom: There’s no gospel there.

Dave: Not at all in the rosary!

Tom: And, Dave, now I want to read one more . . .

Dave: It’s more praise to Mary . . .

Tom: . . . and this may shock some people. Here’s the quote: “Our prayer should include the Mother of God. What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God using these words: ‘Hail Mary, full of grace.’” (By the way, that’s not in the magnificat.) “‘Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen.’ You see, these words are not concerned with prayer, but purely giving praise and honor. We can use the Hail Mary as a meditation in which we recite what grace God has given her. Second, we should add a wish that everyone may know and respect her. He who has no faith is advised to refrain from saying the Hail Mary.”

Do you know whose words those are? Martin Luther. This is from his personal prayer book in 1522. Now, my point here is, is that it isn’t just . . . I’m not saying lots of Lutherans today do the same thing . . .

Dave: This is five years after he nailed his Ninety-Five Theses to the door.

Tom: Correct. So my point is, if you come out of Roman Catholicism, he had this experience as a young man, and he kept it after nailing his 95 Theses to the door. It’s an issue that needs to be addressed.

Dave: Let me just quote from a book of Marian Prayers—and this is very popular in Catholic bookstores. These are prayers to Mary, but listen to this one: “In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee do I entrust my soul. For if thou protect me, dear mother, I fear nothing. Not from my sins because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them.” Wait a minute! Jesus Christ obtained—I get angry! I’m sorry. This is blasphemy! You’re asking Mary to obtain pardon for your sins when Christ paid the penalty? He suffered on that cross! He suffered the agony that was due to the world. The infinite penalty that his own infinite justice required—Christ suffered that! He took our sins in His own body on the tree, the Bible says, and now you’re going to go to Mary to ask her to obtain pardon for your sins after Christ did it? It goes on, “Nor do I fear the devils because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even do I fear Jesus, my judge himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased.”

Tom, I’m sorry! Listeners out there, I am sorry! I am angry for my Lord! This is an affront to Christ—the One who died for me, the Son of God, who loves me and gave Himself for me, Paul said. But Mary has to stand between us and Christ? Otherwise, He would judge us? He would be harsh upon us? And now Mary is the advocate with Christ?

It goes on, “By one prayer from thee, he will be appeased [Jesus will be appeased]. But one thing I fear that in the hour of temptation, I may neglect to call on thee, and thus perish miserably.”

Did you know that if you do not call upon Mary, you would perish? This is what this is teaching. “Obtain for me, then, the pardon of my sins.”

Yes, there are prayers to Mary and they elevate her above God, above Jesus Christ. She’s more sympathetic, and she’s the one who will really obtain for us, so they believe, what Christ in fact obtained and only He could obtain.

Tom: Dave, one last point before we close this out. To whom do we pray? Catholics pray to saints, but they claim that Mary was assumed into heaven bodily, but the other saints, they’re dead. So isn’t that a form of communicating with the dead?

Dave: Necromancy, it’s called.

Tom: And the Bible condemns it . . .

Dave: Absolutely.

Tom: Deuteronomy 18.

Dave: Yeah. Well, let’s go back to the scriptures, and let’s take what the Bible says, and let’s pray to God, the Father, in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.