What Could Be Wrong With a National Prayer Breakfast?

Tom: You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to him.

Prayer has been our topic for the last few weeks, and we’ve been using Dave Hunt’s book In Defense of the Faith as a resource for questions which he has had to answer over his many years of ministry on this subject as well as many other topics that are important to biblical faith. If you would like to order a copy of In Defense of the Faith, Gary will tell you how you can do that later in the program.

Dave, before we go into your first question from your book, I have something that I want to ask you about. It came across my desk recently and it was an appeal by an organization that puts together prayer breakfasts. It asks for prayer and financial support for the upcoming National Prayer Breakfast. Now, I know you like prayer and I know you like breakfasts, so what objection…

Dave: I make my own breakfast, Tom.

Tom: I know you like it!

Dave: I’m not too wild about other people’s breakfasts, but anyway, go ahead. I go along with it sometimes.

Tom: There’s a qualification.

Dave: In fact, I went to…

Tom: What objection might you have to such a function?

Dave: Prayer breakfast? I don’t know, Tom. As you said, I’m in favor of prayer and breakfast. It depends [on] what is said, what impression is given. Many of these prayer breakfasts are very ecumenical and politically/religiously correct. You wouldn’t want to say anything that would offend anyone, so evangelical Christians, although they may be the speaker, often tone down what they say, a little bit obscure as to the meaning. Not always. Some of them, I’m sure, are very good. But I know the presidential prayer breakfast is often that way. You’ve got Buddhists and Hindus and Muslims. You’ve got all kinds of people there.

Tom: Now, that’s not just ecumenism as we understand differences within Christian groups or communions, let’s say, but that seems to be a far reach—a stretch, as it were.

Dave: Yes. So, Tom, I think it depends on the breakfast and what happens. We had a National Day of Prayer recently, and I was just in a town where I was speaking, and in this particular church they were among the leaders of the National Day of Prayer in their community. On the one hand, they thought it was a worthwhile event; on the other hand, they were unhappy with some of the literature, some of the things that were said, some of the implications and so forth. In fact, in the National Day of Prayer, it’s right there in the literature—everyone is asked to pray to his god. You can imagine Elijah asking the prophets of Baal to join him in prayer for God’s blessing upon Israel! They are praying to Baal, and he’s praying to Jehovah, and giving the impression that everyone is praying to the same god. That’s the general impression you get for the National Day of Prayer very often.

I don’t want to be critical, but it’s wonderful to pray. We should pray every day for our rulers, those who are over us in the government, that we would live quiet and peaceful lives. This is what Paul advises Timothy and advises us, 1 Timothy 2.

On the other hand, to give the impression that everyone’s prayer is accepted by God, no matter what their religion is, no matter to whom they are praying, what deity they are—I think that is a deadly deceit that, rather than helping people understand that they are following false gods and false religions, that will lead them to eternal judgment separated from God forever. We ought to be frank with them and tell them that, and not give them a false impression that you can pray to any god that you believe in, “God as you conceive him to be.”

Tom: Dave, one of the reasons I bring this up is because for the last 3-4 weeks we have been discussing prayer, and there’s a lot to learn about prayer. And when you have something like a national, or collective call, or call to a collective group to pray, sometimes we forget about the particulars of—we can talk about people who pray to other gods, but there’s also room to talk about where we are in our walk with the Lord and how we’re to apply prayer. This is what we’ve been discussing for weeks.

Dave: Tom, I understand how it happens. We can’t have a National Day of Prayer and expect the government to get behind this, various organizations to get behind this, and communities to get behind this and just say, “But we are only recognizing that there’s one true God. That is the God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. All other gods are false.” This is what the Bible says, but then we wouldn’t have the community behind us. People would be offended. Well, then maybe we shouldn’t have this kind of a National Day of Prayer. Maybe we ought to call upon all Christians. Maybe we ought to call upon all those who truly know the living God, the one and only living God, and are walking with him. Let us all get together and pray. Or pray in your home or wherever you are. Let’s set aside a certain time to pray. But why should we call upon the entire community, the entire nation, when we have Buddhists and Muslims and Hindus and Shintos and Sikhs and all kinds of people? Sure, they have freedom of religion and we should give that to them. But on the other hand, why should we invite them to join us in prayer for God’s blessing upon America? They cannot pray to the true God. Then are we giving them the impression that it’s okay, their god is just as good as the God of the Bible?

Tom: That’s the problem, Dave, that as we participate in something like that without the clarifications, without the qualifications that you’ve just addressed, we’re misleading people. We are misinforming them.

Dave: Yes, we’ve had this thoroughly brought before us, Tom, as you know. We’ve talked about it in the past, Tom, the memorial services coming out of September 11^th, the horrible disaster, and you had evangelical Christians on the same platform with people of various false religions, giving the impression they are all praying to the same God and that their prayers are equally efficacious. That’s a false impression. Well, now of course, if you are a political leader, what are you going to do? Are you going to offend people?

We are studying in John’s gospel. I think its four times in John’s gospel it says, “There was a division among the Jews because of Him,” because of Christ. Because he didn’t compromise. He didn’t just say to the rabbis, “Okay, let’s all join in prayer. Let’s be ecumenical about this.”

Tom, I’m sure some people listening right now think what narrow-minded, dogmatic fundamentalists we are. Well, you know, I have all kinds of illustrations. Here’s a pilot coming into the airport and he has drifted a few miles south, and the radio control tower radios to him and says, “Turn so many degrees to the north.” And he radios back, “You narrow-minded, dogmatic fundamentalist! I’m just coming in the way I want to.” Well, there’s only one runway. If he doesn’t hit it, he’s had it.

Jesus did say, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me.” Now, if I believe that Jesus Christ is who he claimed to be, and that He is the only one who could and did pay the penalty for our sins, and that this is the only basis for anyone anywhere, anytime to be forgiven and to receive the gift of eternal life, then would I not want to tell that to the whole world? If it offends them, Tom…I’ll give you another illustration. I’ve given these many times. But here I am—I am a doctor, Tom, and you come to me. I examine you, and I know you have a ruptured appendix, and in fact it’s badly ruptured. And if you are not on the operating table within a few minutes, you are dead. But I wouldn’t want to offend you.

Tom: You know, Dave, that actually happened to me and you remember it.

Dave: Yes, yes! But how would you like to have a doctor that wouldn’t want to offend you by telling you the truth? “Tom, if you’ve got some pain, well, take an aspirin. We could give you something stronger for it as well, but I think you are going to be okay. Think positively now. Just hold some positive thoughts.” Tom, you would be dead. That is not kindness; it is not love to withhold the truth from people. We speak the truth in love, but we do speak the truth, and it’s from our hearts, and I hope no one will take it any other way.

Tom: Dave, this isn’t your idea, my idea, but what we are trying to as best we can [is] represent what God’s Word says, and the title of this program is Search the Scriptures Daily. Don’t just listen to what we have to say. If you are offended by it, or object to it, at least go to the source that we are saying is God’s Word and proves itself to be God’s Word.

Dave: Yes. Tom, we can prove the Bible is God’s Word. You cannot do that with the Qur’an, you cannot do that with the Hindu Vedas, the Bhagavad Gita, or any of these books. You cannot do that with the Book of Mormon or so forth. All we ask [is] let’s examine the evidence.

Do you really want to know the truth? I mean, this is pretty serious business. One day we all step out of this life into eternity. We know that we cannot explain love, joy, peace, sense of purpose, and meaning and so forth in the terms of chemical reactions and electric current in the brain. We are non-physical beings, spirit beings living in a physical body temporarily, and when that body is laid in the grave and it deteriorates, the soul and spirit continue. Where will they be?

Now, this is a serious matter. It is not a question of loyalty to my religion. It’s not a question of prejudice, or “I’m not going to let you do that. I was born a Hindu, I’ll die a Hindu,” or whatever. No, let’s examine the facts for our own sake. And please, if anyone can show us that we are wrong—if you can show us that the Bible is not God’s Word, then let us know that.

But that’s what this book is about—In Defense of the Faith—and I have taken things out of vast files that I have of when I was… Again, reminding people when I was in university at UCLA, I read every book I could find. I studied everything I could find that the atheists, the critics, the skeptics had ever said about the Bible to prove that it wasn’t true. I have examined this very carefully, and we have some of these questions in this book. That’s why we call it In Defense of the Faith. So please, don’t let your prejudice get in your way because the eternal destiny of your soul, that is the issue.

Tom: Dave, I want to get on to some of these questions in your book that you’ve had to address. Here’s a good one: “How is it that Christians as a class do not live any longer or healthier lives than the average person, yet so many prayers go up for their health and healing?” All you have to do is turn on the TV, Dave, and you see these guys from Benny Hinn on and on, these faith healers and so on. You would think they would clean out hospitals. Well, Oral Roberts had a hospital once.

Dave: Yes, Tom. On the one hand you are reluctant, I am reluctant. I have talked about this; we have written books about it. I don’t know whether it helps people or not. They get offended, but it is a logical question.

Tom: It’s a good question.

Dave: This comes from an atheist. He is criticizing Christians on this basis. “Now, you Christians, you pray for healing and you claim you’ve got all these Christian healers out there. And how come…?” You would think some of them would live to at least 150, people like Kathryn Kuhlman or Benny Hinn. Of course, he’s not dead yet. But, Tom, all I can say is everyone who has taught that a Christian should never be sick, that we should always be healthy, and if we get sickness that we can claim the blood of Jesus Christ as healing and the atonement and that we can be assured—God assures Christians of healing from every disease. But, Tom, they don’t live longer than anyone else. They are all dead or dying.

Tom: Kenneth Hagin claims that he’s not been sick and that his congregation is better off than most with regard to their health.

Dave: Okay, we are not talking about health right now, Tom. This person asked about dying. Well, I guess they did ask about healing.

Tom: Yes they did, Dave.

Dave: But they asked about dying. How come Christians don’t live longer lives than others? We would have to make a scientific study of Kenneth Hagin…

Tom: And his claims.

Dave: …and his congregation, and I rather doubt that it would hold up. I do know—and I am not saying this about Kenneth Hagin, I don’t know about him—but I do know that some of these faith healers, they kind of drop out of sight for brief periods now and then when they have an operation in the hospital. They have a little time where they have to get some help from doctors.

But, Tom, the point is this: It’s irrefutable. Let’s go back through history. Whoever has taught this doctrine (and I have their books. I know who they are; I’ve read their writings) and I have been healed instantly a number of times by God in prayer, but I do not have the promise that I will live any longer. In fact, the Christians were not supposed to live very long in those days. All Christ promised them was they would be hated and persecuted and killed like he was crucified. But that doesn’t happen today at least not in America. But nevertheless, Tom, it’s just a simple fact. I just would appeal to anyone out there, and we’ll get into healing and the atonement here in a moment.

Tom: Yes, I was going to say, they claim Isaiah 53. They claim 1 Peter.

Dave: Right. I would appeal to anyone out there: just think about it now. Why don’t—this is a good picture from this person. Why don’t Christians live longer than other people? Now, I know Seventh-Day Adventists would say that as a class they probably live a little longer because of their vegetarianism. I don’t know. I haven’t seen a scientific study on it, but if healing is in the atonement and we can always be certain that whatever sickness we get, God will heal us, then Christians ought to be living at least 150, 200, 300 years. In fact, they shouldn’t die from disease, or old age, but we know that isn’t true. We know there is no evidence. Well, then, come on, let’s not put our heads in the sand. Let’s ask ourselves why. Maybe it is not God’s will to perpetuate us in these bodies of sin and sickness and suffering. Maybe God has something better, and of course, He does. Resurrected, glorified bodies. That’s what lies ahead for us as Christians. Why do I want to keep being healed forever to live on in this life, in this body? That obviously, clearly never happened to anyone in the Bible.

Now we have Enoch and Elijah who were taken to heaven apparently bodily which is a unique experience [that] only happened to them. But we have no evidence that anyone else—Joshua didn’t live any longer, David didn’t live any longer. These were men of God. Paul, of course, was martyred as all the apostles were. But we have no evidence that—go back in history—that Charles Spurgeon, or George Mueller…I mean, there’s a man of faith, a man of prayer. Many thousands of recorded answers to prayer. Wycliffe and the heroes of the faith back there. The great Bible teachers—you can go down the list of them and some of them lived into their 80s and 90s, praise God. But I don’t know of any who lived to be over 100, certainly not 120, not 150-200.

Tom: Dave, it’s a bit ironic that when we do find someone who has longevity, someone who lives to 115 years, if those numbers are accurate, you usually find they are cigar smoking, vodka drinking—certainly the antithesis of what we are talking about here.

Dave: Yes, the lady who lived to be 124 in France ate a pound of chocolate a week.

Tom: There’s a diet!

Dave: I would go for that. I like chocolate. But no, Tom, it doesn’t. It’s not connected with Christianity and the cross, because that is not the teaching of the Scripture. Then what do we do?

Tom: And what does the Scripture teach with regard to, at least, healing and the atonement?

Dave: Right. Well, let’s read it in Isaiah:53:4-5 [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
See All... (I think verse 4 because I’m not going to take time to open the Bible), “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” Now that’s a verse that is quoted by people today who believe in healing in the atonement.

Now 1 Peter:2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
See All..., “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.” Now, it sounds like the healing is from sin and from the penalty of sin. This is what Peter tells us, and that is verse 5: “By his stripes we are healed.” Verse 4: “He’s borne our sicknesses and our sorrows.”

Matthew:8:16-17 [16] When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: [17] That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.
See All... seems to give the fulfillment of that. It says, “When the even was come, they brought unto him [that is, Christ] many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick: That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.”

Now, Matthew tells us that was the fulfillment of this, so the bearing of sicknesses and healing of the body was fulfilled in the healing ministry of Jesus Christ on this earth as he healed people. He fulfilled that. This was the Messiah that Isaiah 53 is talking about. But as far as by his stripes you were healed: “…he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities, the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” So it is quite clear in Isaiah:53:5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
See All... and it is very clear in 1 Peter:2:24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
See All... that “by his stripes you were healed” refers to our healing of the disease of sin, the penalty of sin, what it has done in our lives. Now that would make sense and that would explain why Christians don’t live longer lives than others.

Tom: It’s a reconciliation. We were reconciled to God through Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection.

Dave: Paul tells us in Ephesians 1 that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. That’s the seal unto the redemption of our bodies, the purchased possession. Our bodies will be redeemed when they are raised from the dead, or praise God, those of us that may be alive at the Rapture, we will be instantly transformed. Paul tells you in 1 Corinthians 15, “Then shall be brought to pass that saying that will be fulfilled, ‘Death, where is your sting? Grave, where is your victory?’” That death will have been triumphed over. Sin and sickness triumphed in the resurrection of new bodies in his likeness; he will bring us into his presence in his likeness. This is the hope of the Christian.

Now, I want to live as long as I can to serve the Lord, but I don’t know how long that will be, and I do not have any promise in the Word of God that I will be of every disease every time I get sick. Although, praise God, He has healed me a number of times. Instantly I’ve been healed. But that idea, Tom, that’s what concerns me, has led to great delusion. People have shipwrecked their faith because they confessed their healing, and they prayed, and were put under a guilt. “Well, you don’t have the faith, or there must be sin in your life,” as Job’s comforters said to him, and it has really harmed many people. Let’s trust God as He wills to bless us, but above all, we want to be used to His glory, and we want to be true to Him and His Word.