Search the Scriptures Daily Program #4702a:
Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for being with us. Coming up in today’s broadcast in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will resume their exploration of the Gospel of John, and, “Why did Jesus weep?” In Religion in the News, “Do our kids have a right to take Peyote?” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “If you’re not a pre-triber, do you know the gospel?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers many teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video tapes and copies of our weekly broadcast on tape or compact disc. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s cover article. We continue with our series of discussions based on Dave Hunt’s book from Harvest House, with installment #72 of In Defense of the Faith , and along with Dave Hunt, here is T. A. McMahon:
Tom:
Thanks, Gary . You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth, to look to God’s word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to him. Dave, our topic for today is one that captures the imagination, in one form or another, of lots of people. And what I am referring to is, what’s going to take place in the last days before and including the second coming of Jesus. And Christians and non-Christians will likely have some ideas about what’s going to take place, but mostly just enough to let confusion and even superstition reign. You know, I was going through the check out stand the other day and it was one of those deals where you hand the person your blank check and then the machine fills in the amount and so on. And, as the clerk hands me the check back, all I have to do is check it out and sign it, but when she handed it to me she said, Wow, this is scary! And, I didn’t think anything about it, but I just signed it and then I looked at the amount was $6.66. I figured this was an opportunity for me to get into the subject, but you know, the line was so pressing that I had to walk on. But Dave, you speak at a lot of prophecy conferences and so this is a subject you’re obviously familiar with, but what’s your take on the way people relate to the last days and so on?
Dave:
Tom, I wouldn’t know. I mean, people who we are talking about, the attendees at prophecy conferences, they tend to be more stable in their understanding although some of them are not.
Tom:
Some are a bit zealous that I have had contact with.
Dave:
The “last days” is a topic that brings out a lot of imagination, a lot of fantasy, speculation, extremism, and so forth. I think the Bible is quite clear. Jesus was asked about the last days; Paul spoke of the last days. I can’t correlate the Bible with every news event. Now, every time something happens in Israel or when the Gulf War began—oh, that’s leading up to Armageddon—some people even said it was Armageddon. Well, I certainly said that it was not and it had nothing to do with Armageddon.
Tom:
Or even Y2K.
Dave:
Y2K, yes. We’ve forgotten about that one now. Unfortunately, those who were so wrong and excited people and cost people a lot of money haven’t really apologized. I think Gary North apologized. He said one and a half billion people would die, but you don’t get that from the Bible and, in fact, it was rather simple. How could a computer crash, a failure of computers, usher in the Antichrist and a cashless society when the Antichrist needs computers and a cashless society works from computers? It didn’t make sense, it wasn’t biblical, but you’ve got a lot of speculation about things upon which I think the Bible is fairly clear.
Tom:
Dave, I think the books by Tim LaHaye and Gary Jenkins, that’s certainly caught the imagination of lots of people. Is it 26 million copies sold?
Dave:
The Left Behind series—I don’t know how many.
Tom:
And then prior to that, back in the, what would it be? The 60s or early 70s, The Late Great Planet Earth . That was a big item as well.
Dave:
People know something is going on; something is going to happen, even if they don’t believe they are a bit afraid and they like to speculate it and certainly the popularity of LaHaye’s series—wow, that shows there is a great interest in this topic.
Tom:
Well, it brings us to the question and we’ve been drawing our questions for this segment of the program from Dave Hunt’s book, In Defense of the Faith , and maybe a little later Gary will tell you how to get a copy of the book if you would like to track with us. We’re using it as a, well, really primarily, for the questions that are in it, questions that you have received, Dave, over your many years of ministry. And, some of them are tough and some of them look tough on the surface but the answers are right there in scripture, which we want to refer to. Well, here’s the question: “How could it be more clear that the church must face the Antichrist? Paul said, ‘That day shall not come except there come a falling away first (apostasy), and that man of sin be revealed (the Antichrist)’ 2 Thessalonians:2:3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;. I would be interested in how you could argue this point.”
Dave:
Well Tom, first of all, “that day” is referring to—this is Paul writing to the Thessalonians in his first epistle to the Thessalonians 5:1, he says, “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they say peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them,” and so forth. So, this is the day Paul is talking about, the Day of the Lord, which I believe begins with the rapture of the church. But anyway, you wanted to go back and read 2 Thessalonians:2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,.
Tom:
Yes. “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”
Dave:
Tom, let me deal with verse one. I believe he is talking about two things, the coming of our Lord and our gathering together unto him. The gathering is the Rapture, the coming is the second coming, and we have to distinguish between the two. At the Rapture, Christ comes for his church; at the second coming he comes for Israel . At the Rapture, he takes his saints to heaven, the church; at the second coming he brings them with him from heaven. Zechariah 14, very clearly says that when his feet touch the Mount of Olives , that’s the second coming; at the Rapture he catches us up in the air. He doesn’t come to this earth.
Tom:
There’s a great distinction between the two.
Dave:
Right, and at the second coming, when his feet touch the Mount of Olives , he brings all the saints from heaven with him. So, you don’t have to be a genius to know if he brings all the saints from heaven with him, he must have taken them up there; they didn’t climb up there themselves. So, there is a clear distinction, we could give many other distinctions between the Rapture and the second coming. I believe he is distinguishing, he’s talking about both. By the coming of our Lord and by our gathering together unto him. That verse two is very interesting and I don’t want to offend any King James-only people who may be listening, but notice what it says: “That you be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.” Now, I have a King James, that’s what I grew up on, have it all memorized in King James, and I believe this is the best translation, but there are some problems here and there and my King James has a marginal note. It says, “Now present,” not at hand, but now present. In fact, at hand, is a wrong rendering of this. Now, furthermore, you would know that. I don’t have to be a Greek scholar to know that that’s not right, because who would be upset to know the day of Christ was at hand—nobody would be! If you are pre-trib, praise God, we’re about ready to go. If you are a mid-trib or pre-wrath or post-trib, we got to get on with it, you know, we’ve got to go through this anyway, so let’s go to it. That would not upset anybody. But, if the Day of the Lord is now present, which is what the Greek actually says and what my marginal note, how it corrects the 1611, and by the way, there was no such marginal note in the 1611. This is a correction of the 1611. If it is now present, who would be upset? Mid-trib, pre-wrath, post-Post-trib? No, we are already in the Day of the Lord; we’ve got to go through with it, let’s get on with it. Who would be upset? Only one group of people, those that had been taught by Paul that the Day of the Lord begins with the Rapture. So, if the Day of the Lord has already come, it’s now present and you’re still here, either Paul lied to you, or you’ve been left behind. I don’t think you can escape it, Pre-trib Rapture.
Tom:
Dave, I have a squirrelly question on that one. How would they be thinking that if they had just got a letter from Paul? Had he missed the Rapture as well?
Dave:
Well, no, the letter could have been old, or no, the letter would say he’s in the Day of the Lord, too, right. Well, they would be really upset. I think they would be really worried. Paul who taught us that the Rapture occurs before the Day of the Lord, now he writes to us saying, the Day of the Lord has already come. Yes, it’s a real problem, Paul is contradicting himself, or he was wrong, or we’ve all been left behind including Paul. But the point I’m trying to make is, there’s only one group that would be upset. Those who believe in a Pre-trib Rapture. Now, with that background, then I think we can understand verse 3 a little better. Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first. Very clearly, the falling away occurs first. So, what do we do? We say well, wait a minute, has the falling away begun yet? Of course it has. I believe it began, well, it was beginning in the day of the apostles, but certainly, when the apostles were gone. Paul says, “After my departure, grievous wolves will enter in not sparing the flock, also of your own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.” That’s Acts 20; he’s speaking to the elders of Ephesus . So, I don’t think we are waiting for a falling away, it’s getting worse and worse and worse, but the falling away is here. In fact, most of the epistles were written to correct errors that were already in the church and Jude of course, says there are men now present. They have crept in unawares in the church. So, that had to come first, it has already come. But the trouble in part of the verse, it says, “And that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” So people say you see, the man of sin, that is, the Antichrist, has to be revealed before the Rapture. He has to be revealed before the Day of the Lord comes and the Rapture makes the beginning of the Day of the Lord, so he has to be revealed before the Day of the Lord. Therefore, the church must face the Antichrist. Well, that is not what it says, and I have various illustrations that I use. One of them is: Okay, let’s see. Today we are recording this, it’s Monday. So I say, Tom, next Sunday will not come except Saturday comes first and we have a big roast beef dinner. Now, when are we going to have the big roast beef dinner? Not Saturday, but Sunday. I said Saturday has to come before Sunday, but I didn’t say the roast beef dinner comes before Sunday. I said Sunday isn’t going to come without the roast beef dinner, and this is what Paul is saying. The Day of the Lord, which includes the Great Tribulation to begin with, is not going to come except the apostasy comes first. And, the Day of the Lord is not going to come without the Antichrist being revealed in the Day of the Lord. It does not say he will be revealed first. And it goes on and it talks about what will allow the Antichrist to be revealed.
Tom:
I want to read some more verses here, picking up with verse 4: “Who opposes and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God , showing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only who now letteth will let, until he is taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming.”
Dave:
“Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness.” Really some solemn scriptures there. Well Tom, you’re reading the King James and this is old English now, obviously verse 4, “who opposes and exalteth himself above all that is called God and he sits in the temple showing he is God.” That tells us, number one, the temple will be rebuilt. Number two, it tells us, the Antichrist is going to use it for his own purposes. Daniel 9:27 tells us of the covenant that he will impose on the world and for the last week of Daniel. Seventy weeks, which is a period of seven years, and in the midst of the week, three and one half years into it, he will cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease. So obviously, the covenant that he imposes involved rebuilding the temple and we won’t get into the details of that. I have some ideas how the temple will be there on Temple Mount with the Dome of the Rock gone. I don’t think anyone is going to blow it up. I think the Muslims will move it themselves under the authority of the Antichrist. But anyway, he has in mind what he’s going to do with this temple. He lets them start this sacrificial system but then he stops it and he puts his image in the temple and he himself sits in the temple and declares that he is God.
Tom:
Which is the lie that Satan said to Eve in the Garden. So, it’s the lie we find throughout the scripture.
Dave:
“And this is the abomination that maketh desolate,” that Daniel talks about. So we know the temple will be rebuilt and we know this is talking about Antichrist. One of the amazing things to me, this is 2 Thessalonians, 1 st and 2 nd Thessalonians—I know 1 Thessalonians was the first epistle Paul wrote. 2 nd Thessalonians followed very shortly afterwards so these are probably the first two epistles. Paul spent less than four weeks, three Sabbaths, with the Thessalonians and he apparently taught them everything. And he says, “You know I talked to you about this.” They know about the Antichrist, they know about the Day of the Lord, they know about the Rapture, they know about the second coming. It’s amazing how slow Christians are today to understand and yet these people had been pagans—he says, “You turned from idols to serve the living, the true God and to wait for his Son from heaven.” In three weeks they learned more than most Christians today seem to know in three years or thirty years even. Anyway, he’s talking about the Antichrist. You know what—and then here we have this old English—“what withholdeth, what prevents him from being revealed in his time.” So we know there is a time when the Antichrist will be revealed, so don’t waste your time spending time reading books even that tell you who the Antichrist is. He cannot be revealed until his time. Well, when would that be? Well, there is something, someone in fact, who is preventing him. He who now hinders will hinder until he be taken out of the way. This is a person, obviously, who was hindering in Paul’s day, who will continue to hinder Satan from putting his man, his Antichrist, in charge of the world. Well, this is not a human being, someone, it can only be God when he was on this earth hindering in Paul’s day, he still is 1900 years later, hindering. So this can only be God. Well then, how do you remove God? You can’t take God out of the way. But wait a minute! But it says “the one who is hindering will hinder until he is taken out of the way.” Tom, there’s only one explanation that I can find in the scripture. In John 7 it says, “On the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried saying, If any man thirst let him come unto me and drink.” And John, who is writing it—well, he says, “Out of his innermost being will flow rivers of living water…” and John who is writing this comments. He says, “Thus spake he of the Holy Spirit which they that believed on him should receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given because Jesus was not yet glorified.” So, the Holy Spirit was not yet given, but wait a minute, the prophets were inspired of the Holy Spirit to give us the scriptures. David said, “Take not thy Holy Spirit from me.”
Tom:
So it must have been a possibility back then, he must not have been sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.
Dave:
Exactly. The Holy Spirit is here, you can’t remove him, and he’s omnipresent as God is, but he did not permanently indwell the believers.
Tom:
And that happened in the Old Testament.
Dave:
Right. He didn’t permanently indwell the believers in the Old Testament and that permanently indwelling came on the day of Pentecost. So now we have a new presence of the Holy Spirit on this earth that will be removed at the Rapture when the church is removed. I don’t think you can come to any other explanation. So what is hindering the revelation of the Antichrist? He will be revealed in the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord cannot occur until the Rapture takes place, which is why they would have been upset if they had received a letter from Paul saying the Day of the Lord is already here. So, I think this is a powerful passage for the pre-Pretrib Rapture and getting back to the question, away back there, the person is saying, “How can you say the Antichrist doesn’t come first? How can you say that the church doesn’t have to face the Antichrist?” Because the Bible says that the Antichrist will be revealed in the Day of the Lord. And he cannot be revealed until the one who is hindering is removed. You can’t remove God. This new presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling the believers will be removed at the Rapture. Furthermore, if the church were here, the church would oppose him and expose him. And furthermore, Revelation 13 says that the Antichrist will be given authority to make war with the saints and overcome them. He’s going to kill them. If you had a post-Postrib Rapture it would be a classic non-event, there’s nobody left to rapture. Antichrist has killed them all. And, we read of them in the Book of Revelation. A great company of martyrs and they say, “How long before you will avenge us?” And God says not until all the rest of your brethren have been killed by the Antichrist. So, the Antichrist has the authority to kill the saints. Who are the saints during the Great Tribulation? These are those who have not refused the love of the truth and they don’t receive this strong delusion and they believe in Christ and they pay for it with their lives. So the church isn’t going to be left here for the Antichrist to have absolute authority over the church and to destroy the church, to wipe out all the saints. The gates of hell cannot prevail against the church. Christ promised that we would be persecuted but that he would protect and preserve us. So, I think we have a very clear statement here that the Rapture must occur first, then the Antichrist will be revealed and that will be the beginning of the Day of the Lord.
Tom:
Dave, in the few seconds we have left, we have about 30 seconds left, being preoccupied then with the Antichrist is not the thing the Christian ought to do. You’ve referred to the Antichrist in some of your books, but this is not a “seek out and destroy,” or finding kind of thing.
Dave:
I don’t try to identify him, because he cannot be known until his time. So we are wasting our time and there are so many books of speculation about who is the Antichrist, Juan Carlos of Spain , or—
Tom:
Or, Kissinger was suspect.
Dave:
No, just don’t waste your time on it, Prince Charles, and so forth. The Bible says he can only be revealed in his time.
