Psychology vs. the Bible-Part Two (revisit)

Search the Scriptures Daily Program #4105a Transcript follows: Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon.  I am Gary Carmichael. Thanks for tuning in.  Coming up in this week’s broadcast, in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the book of Acts, and, is Jesus mentioned in the Old Testament?  In Religion in the News, was the case of Sibyl bogus?  We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question, “What do we do about really serious disorders?” We hope you can stay with us.  Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials including books, tracts, audio and video tapes and copies of our weekly broadcast on tape or compact disc.  You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter which we offer free of charge.  We’ll let you know how to order later in the program.               PART II PSYCHOLOGY VERSUS THE BIBLE             Now, this week’s cover article. We continue with a re-visit to our special series with Part Two of Psychology Versus the Bible and, along with Martin and Deidre Bobgan, here is T.A. McMahon.               Tom:             Thanks Gary.  Dave Hunt, my senior cohort in this program is somewhere in Europe;  Germany we think.  Nevertheless, through the technological virtuosity of Gary Carmichael, our producer, announcer, and engineer, we hope to contact Dave for the closing segment of our program—just as we managed to do last week.  So, in Dave’s absence, my guests are Dr. Martin Bobgan and his wife and co-author, Deidre Bobgan.  Their books, including Psychoheresy, 12 Steps to Destruction, The End of Christian Psychology, and Competent to Minister, The Biblical Care of Souls, are tremendous resources for understanding the problems with psychotherapy and what the Bible says about the care of souls and particularly, how believers are to minister to one another.  They also have an excellent newsletter, “Psychoheresy Awareness Letter” which is published every two months and is free upon request.  Their website is located at www.psychoheresy-aware.org.  Now, we will repeat this address and include their postal address at the end of the program.  Martin, Deidre, welcome back. Deidre, Martin:             Thank you very much.  Glad to be on. T. A. McMahon:             Our topic is, The Invasion of Psychotherapy and it’s underlying psychologies into Christendom, particularly evangelical Christianity, and I would like to briefly review some of the reasons why that is really such a destructive development.  Let me start by asking you to clarify a statement you made in—well, I found—most of your books.  It goes like this:  Professional psychotherapy is questionable at best, detrimental at worst and a spiritual counterfeit at least.  Could you explain that to us? Martin:             Yes.  When we say “questionable at best,” it is a practice, it has grown in the United States, strangely enough it is almost totally absent in Asia, it’s a kind of Western phenomena and it’s practice, if it did give wonderful results, we could say, Well okay, this isn’t questionable simply because the research supports what it does.  But it’s questionable at best because when you look at the research you don’t find support for psychotherapy as practiced and charged for in America and elsewhere.  And, it’s also questionable from a biblical point of view because the Lord has given us all that we need for life and godliness.  We understand who man is, how he changes, his past and his future and psychotherapy deals with all of those subjects and it’s questionable that it deals with it correctly simply because we already have the answers in the Word.  We have the Truth, with a capital T.  They have their Guesses, with a capital G.  And so, it’s extremely questionable that we should be turning to psychotherapy and its underlying psychologies. T. A. McMahon:             Deidre, did you want to add anything to that? Deidre:             Well actually, when you think about the whole process you are looking at something which is totally different from biblical Christianity.  You are trying to look inside a person.  You are looking at the immaterial part and all we have are guesses.  So, it’s questionable and, of course, the detrimental part would be the iatrogenic affects, the harm that is done and it does become a biblical counterfeit because we do have that contrast.  It is taking over where actually, the Holy Spirit, the Word of God and fellowship and communion of the saints should be involved. Martin:             Now, the “detrimental.”  For example, people say, well, we’re just talking about words, conversations, how can conversations be detrimental?  But it’s interesting that some of the best researchers in the field, including  Han Strop at Vanderbilt University have looked into the detrimental affects of this conversational mode of attempting to deal with people and very definitely there is a detrimental affect and so there is no question about it.  You can harm people by the conversation, by the theories that are behind the conversation and by the techniques and methodologies that are involved. T. A. McMahon:             Now, regarding psychology in general, are you concerned about the entire field of psychology or only psychology that is related to counseling? Martin:             We are only concerned about one particular field portion of psychology and the American Psychological Association has over fifty divisions.  We are not concerned with all of the divisions.  We are concerned with clinical psychology and specifically in that area we are concerned about psychotherapy and its underlying psychologies which is, very simply stated, talk therapy.  And so, we are concerned about that and we are concerned about not only the fact that it exists but the fact that it has not been proven, the fact that it is used extensively throughout the church.  We find it in Bible colleges, we find it in seminaries, we find pastors giving sermons and they are just spinning off the usual things that are said and very popular Christian, so called, Christian books— T. A. McMahon:             (—like promoting myths) Martin:             Yes.  They are dealing with many of the myths that exist in this whole field and they just kind of wind them into their messages and I’m sure they also use them in their counseling relationships with people who come to see them.  And so, this is something that is all pervasive throughout the church and it is the portion of the total area of psychology that we are severely concerned about. T. A. McMahon:             You know, last week you make it abundantly clear that psychological counseling is not a scientific endeavor.  Isn’t it also true that humanity is only partially a subject for valid scientific study?  For example, if it’s correct, as I believe the Bible indicates, that man is made up of body, soul, and spirit and that we can scrutinize the body scientifically, certainly laws of chemistry and physics would apply, but what laws of science can we apply to the study of our souls or spirit? Martin:             Well, as Deidre mentioned earlier, we’re talking about the immaterial.  We’re not talking about the height of a person, color of eyes, color of hair, etc.  We’re really talking about the unseen, the invisible, the intangible, what’s going on in the mind.  And, we have to remember that between our ears exists, so far as we know, the most complex entity in the entire cosmos and this complexity was created by God and this invisible structure there, “the mind” is really a broad field into which many different people want access and the psychotherapies are merely, if you will, religions that are competing with Christianity as to who man is, how to function, how to change, how to deal with life, how to behave, how to change behavior and so on.  And so, we are really dealing with something that is extremely dangerous to man in this area, this immaterial area, the mind of man and we have to be extremely careful about it, particularly because it’s so all pervasive in the church. T. A. McMahon:             Right.  People fail to make a distinction, the mind is not the brain.  Yes, we can have a science even though you mentioned, Martin, that the brain is incredibly complex and who knows really what we are doing with that.  But then, when we step it up a level to the spirit or to the soul which is non-physical, you can’t have a science.  I mean, science of mind is a religion, right?   Martin:             Right.  And the science of the mind deals with unbiblical concepts and we have to go to, not science of the mind and the science of the mind practitioners, we need to go to the Bible to see what God, who has created us, has to say about our mind and that’s where we need to deal with life, problems of living, relationships, family issues and so on. Deidre:             What you see more and more though is that there are people who are attempting to reduce everything of the mind to the brain.  They want to bring it to a materialistic place so that everything, every emotion, every thought is really just simply some chemical thing happening.  And so it is a very materialistic direction that many people are moving into and this is where they are doing the research with drugs and all of the imaging of the brain, when someone has a certain thought what happens in the brain and they are looking at this from a very materialistic standpoint.  On the other hand, you have the opposite thrust and that is, of course, the very, very, very occult experiential kinds of ideas that are being brought in.  But all of this is conjecture, all of it is just really a way of people trying to control their lives, trying to understand man without the Bible or beyond the Bible  those Christians who believe the Bible and then they want to know more.  It’s almost as if they have light but they want more light and they are going from light to light.  But you see, just as we can find things out in a material universe to find out more about the wonderful creative abilities and just all the wonderful things that God has created.  We can discover some of those things through science because we are dealing with matter.  We cannot do that when it is not matter. T. A. McMahon:             We have laws such as physics and chemistry that cover those things even though they are not absolute.  Before we get to Christian psychology I just want to lay some more groundwork here for our concern about clinical psychology and so forth but here’s a question.  Are there no methods or concepts original with psychological counseling which can benefit the Christian? Martin:             Well here again, if you want to get down to the basic basics when you say that can help the Christian.  What is it the Christian wants?  What is it the Christian is looking for and what are the reasons that people come in for counseling?  They are having marital problem, they are having family problems, they are having problems at work, they are having personal problems of living and what you want to do in getting down to the basics is to look at what the research has to say about change.  We don’t need to look at the research, we have the Bible but one way to look at this is through research.  If you go to the Handbook of Psychotherapy and Behavior Change, that’s the bible of behavior outcomes.  You look at edition after edition after edition and each edition say the same thing about the number one reason why people change and you just find it repeated.  Sometimes when I am giving talks I say, Now I’m going to tell you, according to research, the number one reason why man changes and people are kind of leaning forward like, oh okay.  They are ready to take notes.  And I say, The number one reason why people change is because they want to.  Okay.  Now, what’s the number two reason why people change?  The number two reason why people change is, if they are not able to do it on their own that someone (and I’m going to put it in biblical terms) will draw alongside and help bear the burden.  Now that’s not what the handbook says but I am paraphrasing it.  And so, are there any things beyond that, that will be helpful?  Essentially, there is no technique, no methodology, no psychotherapy that you have to specifically know about in order to help the person who wants to change, next to whom you’ve drawn alongside to help bear their burden.  And so, are there any methodologies, techniques and so on that will be helpful?  We don’t need their methodologies and techniques because we’re dealing with the ideas of man, the theories of man, and the guesses and opinions of man, and we have God’s truth.  So when we draw alongside, see, we know that the number one reason why people change is because they want to and somebody drawing alongside helping to bear the burden, then when we bring the truth of God to this situation change will occur.  So, I’d like to turn your question around and say, None is needed.  We don’t need their methodologies and techniques and we don’t need to send people to school to learn them, we don’t need to send people off to people who have been to school in order to learn their techniques and methodologies.  We need to listen to God, we need to learn his Word, we need to pay attention to it, and we need to enter into the power of it in a person’s life if, number one reason, he is motivated to change.   T. A. McMahon:             Martin or Deidre, I would like you both to address this.  You’re talking about methodologies and techniques of psychological counseling, tell us about the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Martin:             Okay.  The DSM as it is known, is a book that lists all of the varying, what’s called mental illnesses.  It’s a book that has codes and designations that are used by professionals to get third party payments.  In other words, they are getting insurance payments as they indicate the code that covers the person that has this so-called mental illness.  It’s been developed over the years.  It started out with (I’m rounding numbers) fifty some designations and now at its current edition, the DSM 4, which is its latest edition.  I don’t know how many are in there but at least 5 times as many— T. A. McMahon:             That gets into the 3 or 4 hundreds. Martin:             Yeah. Deidre:             We have a friend who refers to this as the “Diseasification of Behavior.” T. A. McMahon:             Right.  Either we are all getting worse or they are coming up with new ideas, new categories, new— Deidre:             Any behavior or thinking or feeling that makes you feel uncomfortable is a very good candidate for a disorder and surely at one point in time this will be added.  Homosexuality, at one point in time was one of the classifications.  Now it is no longer a classification but only if a person feels uncomfortable with it. T. A. McMahon:             Now what research went into making that change, Deidre? Deidre:             Well, I think that it is more by vote than by research. Martin:             A good example is the designation originally of homosexuality as being a mental illness and then by vote of those who have the ability to vote on in or out, it was voted that the designation of homosexuality as an illness be deleted.  And so what we have is science by vote and this is really not science. T. A. McMahon:             Right. Deidre:             And then, of course, in diagnosing people you can have the same person presenting the same symptoms to a variety of people and they will not come up with the same diagnosis and as a matter of fact, there was a study that showed that housewives did better than the psychiatrists. T. A. McMahon:             Another area I would like you to address briefly if you could is it the Cambridge Summerville Study? Martin:             Yes, the Cambridge Summerville Study was done quite a number of years ago.  We covered that in the book, Psychoheresy.  The last time I looked at that was probably ten years ago but essentially what happened was this was a highly touted approach to helping kids but some research that was done by a researcher later on discovered that what they had been thinking was a tremendous asset to these kids turned out to be not an asset, not a help but a liability. T. A. McMahon:             Right.  In effect this project was to help these young people through psychotherapy and the follow up found out that those who supposedly to benefit by this, their lives were the most destructive as opposed to a control group that had no help.  Is that right? Martin:             Yeah. Deidre:             Well, what happens is, in much of psychotherapy, especially the insight oriented psychotherapy, the focus is on insight, not what the person does that is right or wrong or whether, and you’re not supposed to even get into right or wrong that’s judgmental, but the why.  It must be, why did this person do this?  And not just the simple why because he wanted some attention, or he was angry at his parents, and feeling rejected and blah blah blah but rather an inner why that must be found out because it is due to something that happened to him when he was a child.  And when you get into all of this business of why, having it be the unconscious being the reason why, then the person is no longer responsible and he has learned he doesn’t have to really think twice before he does things because after all it’s his unconscious that’s making him do it and so these kids instead of learning to control their behavior instead of learning how to make wise decisions, to be responsible, just become so focused on their feelings, they are focused on themselves, that they really have a difficult time then truly being responsible citizens. T. A. McMahon:             Right.  They are being taught to lay this off on something else other than their own hearts. Deidre:             Yes, it is the ultimate blame game with a so-called scientific facade giving them the ultimate reason for what they did. T. A. McMahon:             Now, over the last two programs, we’ve laid out a lot of problems with psychotherapy.  Now, Christian psychology, is that completely distinct from all of that, is it devoid of all the problems that we’re talking about?  What is Christian psychology? Deidre:             It really is a combination of all of this psychotherapy that is out there that is bad and it has enough Christian gloss on it for people to believe it more than the secular person. T. A. McMahon:             So it’s not really distinct.  It only has some variations. Deidre:             You may have some Bible included, you may have some biblical ideas and facade but basically what they are doing is they are using the same theories, the same techniques and they’ve learned them either from the secular institutions or now, a lot of the Christian colleges and universities have brought this in and they are teaching all of the secular stuff too. T. A. McMahon:             All that we have discussed. Martin:             Specifically, your question has to do with Christian psychology and Christian counselors who are using psychology.  They are actually a mixed bag of individuals.  You have some who are psychoanalytically oriented, some that are behavioristically oriented, some that are humanistically oriented and some even dip into the forth stream which has to do with kind of a conglomeration of different Eastern ideas that are incorporated into psychotherapies and so they come in a variety of stripes and colors.  You can’t trust when you walk into a Christian psychotherapist’s office that you are going to have either one type of therapy or another type of therapy because you just don’t know, it’s up to the individual what he is practicing. Deidre:             Here is a quotation from one of those.  “We are often asked if we are Christian psychologists and find it difficult to answer since we don’t know what the question implies.  We are Christians who are psychologists but at the same time there is no acceptable Christian psychology that is markedly different from non-Christian psychology.  It is difficult to imply that we function in a manner that is fundamentally distinct from our non-Christian colleagues.  As yet there is not an acceptable theory, mode of research, or treatment methodology that is distinctly Christian.” T. A. McMahon:             So if the Christian turns to a Christian psychologist thinking that they are going to be on safe grounds, it’s not the case. Martin:             Now, The American Association of Christian Counselors, is an organization that claims to be Christian, of course, however, it’s an integrationist organization purely and simply.  It has, probably about twenty thousand members now and what they have now is a center, what they call a center for biblical counseling and they have a certificate program.  When you look at who is teaching these classes and you look at the course content what you are seeing is just the kind of the epitome of integration.  Integration being taking biblical ideas and psychological ideas and teaching them together.  And so this particular program which we received a catalog for is just an example of how prolific this psychology is in the church and how much it has taken a hold. T. A. McMahon:             So if psychotherapy is not the answer for solving problems of living and Christian psychotherapy may even compound a believer’s problems, where then should a Christian turn for help?  Now that’s going to be the main topic for next week’s program with our guests, Dr. Martin and Deidre Bobgan, so please invite your friends and particularly the pastor and elders of your church to tune in.  I know this is going to be a great encouragement to all who love God’s Word.