Gary:
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to respond to in a future Contending for the Faith, stay tuned, we’ll provide our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Now our final segment:
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
We resume our excursion through the Book of Acts. Here again are Dave and Tom: This is our Understanding the Scriptures segment. We’re in Acts Chapter 18, Dave, but we are moving along. This is Acts chapter 19, verse 1: “And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.”
Dave:
Well, Tom, we have to finish—what was Paul’s immediate reaction? Then what were you baptized to? Now that’s interesting, because we have people out there who do not believe in the Trinity, United Pentecostals, and so forth, the “Jesus only people,” because you go down and it will say they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Well see, they were only baptized in the name of t he Lord Jesus because He’s the only one. The Father is kind of a mode, or an office, not a real person, there’s only one person, that’s Jesus. And the Holy Spirit? No, that’s just kind of another manifestation of Jesus. This is an ancient heresy, of course. You know what John says, You don’t have the Father, you don’t have the Son, 2 John tells us. But anyway, so Tom, it’s rather interesting, Verse 3, because as soon as they say, We haven’t even heard about the Holy Ghost, what are you talking about? Why does Paul immediately say—
Tom:
Well, let me quote the verse: “And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.”
Dave:
Right, John didn’t talk about the Father or the Holy Spirit. But if Paul immediately asked that question, you know they are baptizing in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, exactly as Jesus said in the gospels, when He said unto his disciples, Matthew 28: Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now, because here it says they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Well, no, it’s like a contrast, what did John baptize you to? What are we baptizing you to? Well, you’re coming to know Christ as your Lord and Savior, and as he said, We baptize you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Otherwise, why would Paul say, when they say, We haven’t even heard of this Holy Spirit stuff, why would Paul say: Whoops, how did you get baptized? Well, baptism must say something about the Holy Spirit, otherwise Paul wouldn’t say, Well, you have never heard about the Spirit, what did you get baptized to? So that was how Paul found out they are not real Christians, they are not born again in the Spirit of God. They are the followers of John the Baptist, this is all they know, and they were baptized in John’s baptism. What was that? It was a baptism unto repentance. John was the forerunner of Christ, and He came to call Israel to repentance. You know, we’ve been in idolatry, we’ve sinned, we’ve been in rebellion against God. The Messiah was promised that He would come, let’s get ready for Him, get our hearts right, and let’s confess our sins to God. That was the baptism of John, that’s not the baptism of a Christian.
Tom:
Dave, it’s amazing to me how we want to turn everything into a methodology, a technique. Certainly, we need to be careful that we obey what God says, His Word, so, I am not addressing that. On the other hand, I grew up Roman Catholic, 30 years in the Roman Catholic church, and my baptism—first of all, you want to talk about moving away from the scriptures, it said that unless I was baptized, there is no way I could get to heaven, there was no way I could have salvation.
Dave:
Tom, you know, an unbaptized infant that dies, they are in limbo, there is no hope for them.
Tom:
Well, that was never really a doctrine of the church, a dogma. On the other hand, it’s what everybody believed.
Dave:
But it follows, from what they teach.
Tom:
Right, right, I mean, we were taught that, but not officially, but everyone believed it. But what I’m getting at here is, you want to talk about a methodology, a technique in which certain things have to be done. The water itself had to be holy water, it had to be prepared by the priest, all right, because it had effect, it was efficacious because of the power in the water. It was an exorcism, and somebody thinks that I’m making this up, just call your local priest and ask them if exorcism is part of infant baptism, and it is! So, my point here is that God tells us to do certain things. Jesus said these were ordinances, the ordinance of baptism, which had to do with a public proclamation that we were in Christ, that we had accepted Christ.
Dave:
But we have died with Christ, and got into new life with Him.
Tom:
Right, the other ordinance being, celebration of the Lord’s supper, looking to His death, burial and resurrection. It’s a memorial, remembering what He has done for us. Yet, we have turned it into a liturgy, ritual, something so far removed from what the scriptures meant.
Dave:
Well, the magic formulas that has some power in itself, and of course, the mass is—well, it’s called, the sacrifice of the mass, and if you do not acknowledge that this is a propitiatory sacrifice, Christ is literally being sacrificed on that altar, and this is a propitiatory sacrifice for the forgiveness of the sins of the living and the dead. If you don’t acknowledge that, anathema to you! We damn you to hell, is basically what they say. So, the church tradition has changed these things. So Tom, what you’re pointing out is, these guys had problems about baptism, they didn’t really understand baptism, and certainly, the same misunderstanding, in fact misunderstandings have gotten even worse today. We call it apostasy, a departure from the faith. And no better illustration of apostasy than Christian psychology! They have departed from the faith, departed from the Bible, and they have gone to the godless, anti-Christians to get some good counseling from scripture!
Tom:
Seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, it says in 1 Timothy chapter 4, verse 1. So, to pick up here, Dave, Acts 19:4: “Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.” So there’s faith, they needed to have faith in Jesus Christ, that’s what it begins with.
Dave:
Right. So, he preaches the gospel to them. I’m sure, you know, the Bible is not telling us everything that he said. Christ Jesus, well, do you know who He is, why He came, and so forth. Not just some person named Christ Jesus, that wouldn’t help, but we need to know who He is.
Tom:
Dave, as you know, last fall we had a conference here, and there were some people that wanted to be baptized. It was a total privilege for us to baptize. There were some young people, and some guys in their forties and fifties, and so on, but I was in the water, we did this in a pool, and you were standing above, and so I said for some, I baptized them in the name of Jesus, and then I thought for the next ones that, Well, come on, I really need to baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and the Holy Spirit. Now, was the one that I only said, the Lord Jesus, were they then not truly baptized, did they not truly fulfill that public proclamation?
Dave:
Well, Tom, let’s take the side of the United Pentecostals for a moment. It’s all in Jesus. Well, Isaiah 9:6, His name shall be called, Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God, the everlasting Father. Jesus said, I and my Father are one. So when they are baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus they are really baptized in the name of the Father and the Son. Well, it doesn’t specifically mention the Holy Spirit, but without the Holy Spirit no one is saved, the Word can’t be applied. We’ll let you off the hook on that one, Tom, but don’t do it again now, don’t forget, Jesus said, Baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I’m sure it was a valid baptism.
Tom:
Well, you know, again we want to do things God’s way not our way, but I don’t see in that particular case—I didn’t lose a lot of sleep over it, but it did remind me I want to honor the Lord in doing this. And Dave, what would it have meant? I mean, what happens if you are not baptized? Are they going to go to purgatory, are they going to go to hell?
Dave:
Well, that’s another question, Tom. Baptism for some people if it be the Church of Christ, for example, if you’re not baptized, in fact if you are not baptized by them, you are not saved. Because the one verse in Mark 16:15, that says, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. Well, of course, if you believe, even if you are not baptized, you are saved because the gospel—what’s the gospel of Christ? Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. And Paul said, Christ sent me—this is 1 Corinthians chapter 1, Christ sent me, not to baptize but to preach the gospel. And in chapter 4, he says, You’ve got a lot of teachers but you don’t have many fathers, and through the gospel I have begotten you in Christ Jesus. So, it’s the gospel by which we are born again. Peter tells us that, and not a word about the baptism with the gospel. But we’re baptized when we believe the gospel, and that’s what happened to these people.
Gary:
Dave and Tom will resume their discussion on the topic of salvation next week, we hope you can tune in. This is Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Would you like to expand your knowledge of God’s Word? We offer a wide variety of items that will greatly assist you, from books and tracts to audio and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast write to us at PO Box 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call us at our toll free order number 877-882-4253, that’s 877-88Bible, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #1007, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. Get a pen or pencil ready, we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment.
Next week we will continue our series of programs based on Dave and Tom’s book, Psychology and the Church, and, Where does psychotherapy come from? In Religion in the News, The gays and the Anglicans. We’ll take a look at that story and address the question: Why are youth pastors emerging? We hope you can join us. If you have questions or comments about this program we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily Radio Ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers, and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael and for Dave, Tom, and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for tuning in, and invite you to join us again next week. In the meantime, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the scriptures daily. For more information about The Berean Call, write to us at PO Box 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call us toll free at our order number 877-882-4253, that’s 877-88Bible, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org.
