Has The Church Sold Its Birthright To Psychology?
Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for tuning in. Coming up in today’s broadcast in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and “Did Paul’s handkerchiefs perform miracles?” In Religion in the News, “The Virgin Mary Baking Pan.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Why did God take it so easy on Ahab?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disc or DVD. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program.
Now, this week’s Cover Article. Tom and Dave continue our series of programs based on their book, Psychology and the Church: Critical Questions, Crucial Answers. This week we focus on the question, “Has the church sold it’s birthright to psychology?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.
Tom:
Thanks, Gary. You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. In this first segment of our program we will be discussing the subject of psychology and the church and we think it is a very important subject because the church has turned to psychological counseling, really in a major way to solve the everyday problems of professing Christians. We’ve mentioned that Christian churches are the foremost referral source for professional counselors, and that Christian psychologists—Dave, we mentioned this last week, based on, not alone, but we got a letter from someone extolling the virtues of Christian psychologists, and they’ve become the most influential people in evangelical Christianity today. Now Dave, as someone said, The church has sold its birthright for a pottage of beans, or a bowl of bean soup. But I think if you strained the soup of psychology, I think you would have trouble finding any nutritious beans in it. I mean, that’s our view of it, and we’ve tried to present our documentation, present our thoughts about this over the weeks.
Dave:
Tom, there’s one other way of looking at it, and you know that I’ve been accused of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and I tell them that I strained the bath water, and there’s nothing in there but Rosemary’s baby. I’m afraid that’s psychology. Unfortunately, a lot of it comes out of the occult, and we documented that in past programs concerning Carl Jung, for example.
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
Tom, we don’t enjoy this. Okay, let everybody understand that, but we feel obligated—well, we are told to, earnestly contend for THE faith, once delivered to the saints. Okay, and this is not THE faith, once for all delivered to the saints. This is,—as I’ll quote Bruce Narramore for probably the third time—it was humanistic psychologist Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers, who first made us aware of the need for self love and self esteem. So, this is not the gospel, this is not the Word of God. They didn’t get that out of the Word of God, they got it from atheists.
Tom:
Well, Dave, as we’ve mentioned in past programs, these men who, the pillars of psychology, who were supposed to solve the world’s problems, people of the world, and they couldn’t solve their own problems. Their lives were so messed up it’s just outrageous to even think that we would look to them for some sort of help. You know, last week, just to pick up where we left off, we talked about Psalm One: Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly. Let’s talk about what the scriptures have to say. So, for the sake of some of our viewers, listeners who weren’t with us last week to tune in, let me go through Psalm One: “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.” Sounds like a great “heads up” to me, and more than that, this is what God says, this is how our lives are going to be fruitful. Dave, let’s take it from the top. “Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.” That’s pretty straight forward, isn’t it?
Dave:
Yeah, we talked about that last week, you have a progression there. Walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, and we pointed out that the founders of psychology were all ungodly, every last one of them. And so Christian psychology is walking in the counsel of the ungodly. That’s all there is to it! They have taken it from the world. This is the wisdom of the world that Paul says is foolishness with God, and yet it’s in the church, okay.
Tom:
But Dave, last week I also mentioned—you know we have a classic interview, I think, posted on our website between—it’s a discussion between you and Walter Martin. And Walter is defending psychology, and one of the reasons, as we’ve mentioned previously, we can’t get so-called Christian psychologists to debate the issues with us. Now, one of the points that Walter makes, and I’d like you to address it now, you did on the program, but I think it’s important because it has become the mantra of Christian psychology, and that is, all truth is God’s truth. Now, would this verse that we’ve just read, can we get God’s truth from the ungodly?
Dave:
Well, Tom, yes and no. He has put his laws in every human conscience. So that’s why you would get some good things out of Buddhism or even Hinduism, even atheism, but they try to say, Well, you don’t need God for there to be ethics or right and wrong. So every human being has a certain amount of common sense, and God has impressed his laws in their conscience, but that’s not exactly what it talks about, because it says, In his law doth he meditate day and night. I don’t think people are meditating on their conscience, they are trying to escape their conscience. So, it’s talking specifically about the Word of God when it says, In his law doth he meditate day and night, means the Word of God. Now when Jesus, in John 8:31 said: If you continue in my Word, then are you my disciples indeed, and you will know THE truth, and THE truth will set you free. Now, what is this THE truth? Not only Walter Martin, but his successors—he had an article in Christian Researcher several years ago by the Pazentino’s, Bob and Gretchen Pazentino, in which they argue. Well, but all truth is God’s truth. Look at this, ten times ten is a hundred, well, that’s part of God’s truth. No, that’s a simple fact, and let’s not mix science with truth. In verse, I think it was—Tom, you know I never remember the verse, but I think it’s Verse 44, Jesus said: Because I tell you THE truth, you believe me not. Is Jesus saying, Because I tell you ten times ten is a hundred you believe me not? This truth that He is talking about is something that the world will not receive. Now if you went to John 18, Jesus is before Pilate, and Pilate says, Are you a king? And Jesus says, Yes, I am and my purpose in coming to this world is to bear witness to THE truth. I don’t think Jesus came to bear witness to: E=MC², or the attraction between two objects is directly proportional to their masses and inversely proportioned to the square of the distance between their centers, between the law of gravity where it accelerates at 32 ft. per second per second, this earth, not elsewhere! No, so if we went to John 14, I think it’s pretty clear, Jesus—well, it is very clear—Jesus said, I am not going to leave you comfortless, you know, I am going away but I will send a Comforter to you. Now, here’s how He describes the Comforter: Even the Spirit of truth, and then Jesus says, whom the world cannot receive because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him. Now, if we went to John 16, I think it’s Verse 13, somewhere around there, Jesus says: When He, the Spirit of truth is come, He will lead you into all truth. I don’t think the purpose of the Spirit of truth is to lead us into scientific facts, I mean, He could lead us into plenty that we wouldn’t even be able to understand, the universe is that complex, it’s that amazing! Okay, so now, we just take the words of Jesus, You continue in my Word, you will know the truth. I am going to send the Spirit of truth, He will lead you into all truth when He comes, and the world can’t receive the Spirit of truth, it doesn’t even know it. So now don’t tell me that Freud or Jung or Rogers or Maslow had any of God’s truth. They may have had some common sense, just like Buddha had.
Tom:
I’ve read much of what they’ve written and that’s debatable.
Dave:
Not much—well, they violated their conscience, they went against their conscience.
Tom:
Right, and many of their concepts were on that basis, to soothe their own conscience.
Dave:
Right, but anyway, so all truth is God’s truth? Well, in a sense you could say, Yes, the very capacity that we have to recognize truth comes from God, but this is not standing before a judge and saying, I solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. That is not the truth that Jesus came to bear witness of. In other words, it’s not facts, it’s not about science. But furthermore, You will know THE truth, and THE truth will set you free! I think ten times ten is a hundred would set anybody free. Furthermore, even standing in front of a judge: I solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me, God, that could put people in jail, and not set them free. Okay. So all it blows down to is this; when we’re talking about God’s truth we’re talking about the Word of God. Jesus said: Thy Word is truth. We are also talking about the living Word of God, which is Christ himself. He said: I am THE truth. Now, hmm, Christian psychology is getting perilously close to, all roads lead to the same place. Jesus said: I am THE truth, and you says, Yeah, but God’s truth is here, God’s truth is there—that’s their big problem. So, I supposed you could dredge something out of Confucius, he had some pretty good ideas, or Buddha’s four noble truths, an eight-fold path, some of that is pretty good stuff. That is not what Jesus is talking about. And the Holy Spirit doesn’t lead you into that. He’s talking about the Word of God, and so we are in Psalm One: In his law, the Word, does he meditate day and night. And if he will do that he will not walk in the counsel of the ungodly, he will not stand in the way of sinners, he will not sit in the seat of the scornful, but he will be led of the Spirit of God to understand the Word of God. And Tom, I was asking the Lord early this morning, Lord, I need wisdom. James says that if any man lacks wisdom, let him ask of God. Lord, please give me wisdom, because Solomon in Proverbs 4:7 said: Wisdom is the principal thing, therefore get wisdom. We’re going to get it from God, we are not going to get it from Freud, and Tom, I’m talking too long.
Tom:
Well, Dave, let me finish that: And in all that getting—get understanding.
Dave:
Yeah, I haven’t gotten to that yet, but that’s okay.
Tom:
Okay, I love that punch line.
Dave:
That’s very important, and Tom, it’s just incredible. Just to put one more period at the end of this sentence: His name—this is the Messiah—shall be called Wonderful, COUNSELOR! Now that’s one of Christ’s names, then let’s go to Him for counsel, let’s not go to some counselor who happens to be a Christian psychologist, licensed by the state, and who took all these godless courses, the same ones that the atheistic psychologists and psychiatrists took, and he passed them the same way they did with the same answers they gave. PLEASE, let’s get back to the Word of God, and let’s have some confidence in Christ. You know it’s a slap in the face, really to Jesus. THE COUNSELOR, and we turn—Oh, well, his Word, I mean, that’s not enough, I tried that, it doesn’t work, I’ve got to have some help from Freud or Jung or Rogers, Maslow, on and on, all godless men.
Tom:
Dave, I’ve been asked that question, probably not as often as people have challenged you with it, but my response is, well, okay, not that I accept that mantra that all truth is God’s truth, but give me an example. Give me an example from Freud or Jung or Maslow, in which they have presented God’s truth. Silence every time, they may give me some practical thing of—well, I’m thinking about the example when you were at—was it Fuller with Martin and Deidre Bobgan?
Dave:
Yes, they never invited them back and they certainly never invited me back. Yes, I was sitting there in the—well, these were pastors who went back to Fuller to get PhD’s in psychology so they would feel competent to counsel from the Bible, if you can imagine that! That means Paul wasn’t competent, neither was anyone until the 1800’s when Freud came along, and the church was without all this great wisdom. Okay, and I’m sitting in the back of the class because he’s talking with about 30 pastors. Tom, I was just sinking down in my chair, lower and lower, because it’s getting embarrassing. He is just spanking them—
Tom:
You’re thinking about Martin Bobgan?
Dave:
Martin Bobgan—well, he’s very straight forward, he doesn’t mince his words, and he was just laying it out, all the facts, I mean, this isn’t science, and it certainly isn’t Bible, and I was actually—
Tom:
It was actually work, not efficacious in any sense.
Dave:
I was getting embarrassed really, I though there would be a mass exodus from the graduate school of psychology at Fuller Theological Seminary there in Pasadena—someone gave them a gift, that’s the biggest building down there the last time I was there. But, boy was I wrong! They were not moved at all, and so the Q&A session they are challenging him—All truth is God’s truth. And he said: Well, there are two basic problems that man has if we are going to deal with his problem. What is the model of man, and how do you change him.
Tom:
The method of change.
Dave:
Right, and they began discussing this, and of course Martin said: Would you give me one example, just what you just said, give me one example from psychology that is God’s truth from the Bible about these two things, the model of man, the method of change. And he added that wasn’t in the Bible first, and said there better. Okay. Well, there was silence, and finally one lady, I guess, a woman pastor, she said: Well, I have found psychology very helpful in potty training mentally retarded children. That was it, Tom, that was the best they could come up with!
Tom:
That has nothing to do with God’s truth, it has to do with behavioral modification, and so on, which is problematic at best.
Dave:
So Tom, instead of sinking down in my chair, now I was weeping for these dear people. They’ve abandoned the Word of God, they’ve come to study psychology in order to be able to counsel their parishioners, not from the Bible, which is sufficient, but from the wisdom of man. They are walking in the counsel of the ungodly.
Tom:
And what they are missing out—I’ll pick up with Verse 2. This is again, some of you have just joined us—I’m reading Psalm 1, verse 2: “But his delight is in the law of the Lord;—and of course, that’s the law and the testimony, the scriptures—and in his law doth he meditate day and night.” And what comes of that, Dave, Verse 3—
Dave:
Well, we talked about that a bit last week. It speaks to my heart, His delight—wow! Thy words are my delight, Thy words were found and I did eat them, Jeremiah said. Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Delight thyself also in the Lord.
Tom:
And what happens is a consequence? “And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.” Now, this is the promise of God, Dave, these aren’t just some platitudes we are laying out here.
Dave:
Yeah, so Tom, we’ve done a bit of hiking together. Some people used to say that I took them on death marches up in the Sierras.
Tom:
Well, anybody under 6 feet said that, going with you Dave, and your son, and even Ruth.
Dave:
Well, that’s some pretty steep stuff, but when you look down in a canyon, even if you went in Southern California where it’s desert, but look down in the canyon, it’s green, and you will find where it seems to be too low for pines. It’s going to have bushes, no, get by a stream down there even at a low altitude, and you will find pine trees flourishing because they’ve got a good supply of water. And what does that speak to us about? Jesus said, If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink—Whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely. So, fantastic Psalm, Tom! It is amazing how all the Bible fits together.
Tom:
By contrast, “The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.” Dave, there is an incredible metaphor for what we see today. People are just, I mean, they are just being blown back and forth. Their lives are so unstable, there are no roots down because they are buying into all of these bogus ideas, these wrong teachings.
Dave:
And you know what chaff is, you throw it up winnowing the wheat and the wind blows the chaff away, that’s no good, it doesn’t have any nutrition in it, but these people are like that, they are being blown away with the wind. “Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.” Now, do you mean they are not going to be judged? No, they will not be at the judgment seat of Christ, there’s nothing to judge in their lives, they’re condemned, they have rejected Christ.
Tom:
Now this doesn’t mean, in the context of what we are talking about, everyone who turns to psychology, but we’re talking about those who reject the truth, they reject Christ.
Dave:
Amen, for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, because they refused to receive the love of the truth, and they believed a lie rather than the truth. What a tragedy, Tom!
Tom:
Right. “For the Lord knows the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.” It’s as simple as that, and all we need to do is to look to the so-called fruit of a psychologized society, which we are, it’s almost world wide.
Dave:
It’s getting worse and worse. That’s a real growth business, and the beds in psychiatric hospitals keep growing larger and larger, and Tom, you have often quoted: There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, the end thereof are the ways of death. And right here in this Psalm we have it presented.