Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, we’re glad you could tune in. Coming up in today’s broadcast in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and “Are you a follower of the way?” In Religion in the News, “The church of global warming.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “What is discipleship?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disc or DVD. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program.
Now, this week’s Cover Article. Tom and Dave continue our series of programs based on their book, Psychology and the Church: Critical Questions, Crucial Answers . This week we focus on the question, “Is psychotherapy just conversation?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.
Tom:
Thanks, Gary . You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. We’ve been discussing the subject of Psychology in the Church, for a number of weeks now in this first segment of our program, and lately we’ve been going over some of the myths that Christians and others believe and have deluded them into turning to psychological counselors for their every day problems of living. Last week we presented quote after quote from psychiatric researchers and psychological studies that the belief that professional counselors with PhD’s and MD degrees are more effective than non professionals, and that belief is a myth, and myth, of course meaning, Dave, it simply is not true.
Dave:
Absolutely, all of the studies show this.
Tom:
Right. Just to remind some of our listeners who were with us last week, our viewers, and maybe some new viewers or listeners, renowned psychiatrists, research psychiatrists actually, Jerome Frank tells us that although about six and a half million Americans see mental health professionals yearly, no scientific research has demonstrated conclusively that professional psychotherapists produce results sufficiently better than non professionals.
Dave:
Well, Tom, that’s not for a lack of making the studies, there are plenty of studies out there and they all confirm the same inadequacy psychotherapy.
Tom:
One of the myths that we discussed at length in other programs is the erroneous belief that psychotherapy or psychological counseling is scientific. That delusion has promoted simply because the practitioners of psychotherapy have advanced degrees. Dave, you’ve mentioned some of the studies, can you recall the—
Dave:
In one of his books, E. Fuller Torrey, refers to a test—there have been a number of them—where they matched Western psychiatrists against witch doctors. They did some in India , another test they did some in Haiti .
Tom:
This is no joke, Dave, this is not a mockery, we are talking about native healers.
Dave:
Right, right, yeah, they call them, blue hosts, or shamans, witch doctors, medicine men, various names and various societies, but it’s all the same thing. Anyway, the outcome was pretty much a dead heat, the only major difference was that the witch doctors charged less and released the patient sooner. Now, witch doctors also, in some of the tests had better results. Basically what is the witch doctor using, is he using magic? Well, it’s the power of suggestion, a lot of it. Now, we can talk about demonic power that some of them have, but many of them are phonies, it’s just the power of suggestion.
Tom:
Well, Dave, we’re going to get into the vehicle of psychotherapy, it’s conversation, but before we get to that, here’s a quote from the Handbook of Psychotherapy and Behavior Change , they say: “Although there are large numbers of therapies, each containing its own rationale and specific techniques, there is little evidence to suggest the superiority of one school over another.” Now, that’s amazing, because there are more than 500 different methodologies or approach.
Dave:
Tom, that’s just kind of a left handed compliment, it’s another way of saying, none of them work!
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
I’m sorry, you know, I don’t know if people out there, maybe we are talking to some who are going to a psychiatrist or a Christian psychologist for counseling, and now we are just really undermining your confidence in this. We are simply telling you the facts. Now, if it works it will be because you believe it will work. Now why don’t we believe that God’s Word is true? Instead of having confidence in God’s Word, we are now being taught to have confidence in a counselor, but one of Christ’s names is Counselor. Let’s go to Him and to His Word.
Tom:
Right. Dave, here’s the way good friends of ours, Martin and Deidre Bobgan, who have written extensively in this area, from their research this is what they tell us, that psychotherapy works. On the one hand, on what basis does it work? As I mentioned 500 different therapies, many of them contradictory to one another—so it’s not the therapies or the techniques that’s effective.
Dave:
And some of them are very bizarre, Tom.
Tom:
Exactly. Well, we quoted Dr. Hans Strup, from Vanderbilt University last week, here is what he said: “Psychotherapy is most helpful to those who need it least.” Now Dave, that’s telling us something about this whole field. In other words, if the problems are, you know, that anybody could take care of, then they can be effective. If it’s something that is really a problem, forget it.
Dave:
You don’t really need the help, then they will really work. In other words, it can’t deal with real problems.
Tom:
Well, Dave, I think, for our audience, what psychotherapy and psychological counseling are all about, and this is what we are focusing on in these programs, it has to do with conversation. Now, if conversation is the medium of this approach to solving people’s problems, it’s pretty much the same kind of technique that we mentioned shamans, healers, they give their patients, clients, whatever you want to call them, they give them ideas, they have conversation with them.
Dave:
Tom, I don’t want to get off on a side issue that you want to deal with later, but that tells you something. Is there something wrong with the brain? Conversation isn’t going to help that, but then they are going to give you some kind of a drug as well to influence your brain, we’re getting kind of mixed up here. Which is it, is it the brain or is it the mind? Oops! Now we’re getting into something else, the mind is different from the brain, the mind does thinking, and what the conversation is trying to get at is, where are your thoughts? Have you got negative thoughts, or inferiority thoughts, or you have fears, compulsive behavior? Now, if they are going to mess with your brain—and I’m sure you want to come back to that—we’re getting outside the bounds here, and we’ve got real problems. But in the meantime, what are we dealing with? Attitudes?
Tom:
I think so, Dave. Well, going back to the Bobgan’s approach, they say psychotherapy works based on the research, but as Dr. Strup says, “It works best for those who need it the least.”
Dave:
Tom, you gave plenty of statistics last week that, it works as well for non professionals as it does for professionals. So basically, if you are willing to change your attitude, that’s about all they can do.
Tom:
And again, the medium is conversation. So, they say that it proves, in many cases, mild to moderate relief, just like having a conversation. I can sit down, and particularly if I’m going to listen to you, and you need somebody to listen to your problems, and you want to go through them, and so on, this is the realm, this is the arena of psychotherapy and psychological counseling.
Dave:
Tom, it can even do it—you can go to the dentist with a horrible toothache, and when you get in the dental chair, Aw, it’s gone, or you go to the doctor with a problem. It’s kind of a placebo, you know.
Tom:
Now we’re getting into, Well, if it works. When does it work? How it works is really common to all the psychotherapies. Well, what are they? Well, the would say, Number One, it depends on the individual, the client. Is he willing, as you mentioned earlier, Dave, is he willing to change, is he willing to consider what he is doing and make some changes in his life? Now, do you have to be a professional to bring somebody to that point, especially through conversation?
Dave:
You can’t bring them to that point, Tom, they have to be willing, and I don’t know how you are going to persuade them. Maybe some people—well, I suppose some people’s conversation could be more calming and assuring and so forth, but that’s not going to last any longer than when you get out of the room with this person. So, somehow they are going to have to see things in a different light, and the best way to see things in a different light is to trust Jesus, let’s go to Him.
Tom:
Well, but now we are talking about content. Dave, maybe for those who may have just joined us, our program is called, Search the Scriptures Daily, the Bible—it’s the Manufacturer’s Handbook. God has laid out things in that book that we need to do in order, first and foremost to be reconciled to Him.
Dave:
Amen.
Tom:
But also, then once we’ve been reconciled how we then live our lives, and we either going to go by the Book, go by the content of the Book. What did Jesus say? He said, “Sanctify them by thy truth, thy Word is truth.” So Dave, for a Christian, considering going to—because he needs to talk to somebody, maybe people aren’t available, and he decides to go to a psychological counselor, is he going to get truth from this individual? We’ve been through that—I don’t think so! They don’t have God’s truth, it’s as simple as that.
Dave:
Well, but wait a minute, Tom, now I am going to a Christian psychologist and he claims to be counseling from the Bible, but he may do that to a certain extent, then why is he a psychologist? What’s that license hanging on the wall for? Is that meaningless, he’s just simply going to abandon the ideas, all the humanism that he learned? That’s what he’s getting paid for, he’s not getting paid for telling me what the Bible says. So Tom, it’s a mixed bag at best, but it can be very destructive as well. Because, what it does, Tom, and we’ve been over this: Here I am, I just can’t get along with my wife, let’s say, or my children, or I’m just having terrible depression. Well, Tom, I wouldn’t know how to be depressed, I’ve never been able to accomplish that, but anyway, let’s say that I am, or I’ve got some problem—
Tom:
You know, there are people out there, genuinely—they get depressed.
Dave:
Depressed, right. —and I’m being counseled now by a Christian psychologist, he has been recommended by my pastor, let’s say, by the church, and so what’s he going to give me? Well, he’s got a thing hanging on the wall there that tells about his degrees and the license he got from the state. Now to get the license from the state he had to pass the same test that atheistic psychologists who are counseling also passed, had to give the same answers, and after all I’m not just going to pay him for telling me something out of the Bible. I mean, don’t I know the Bible, I’ve read that, I want professional advice. So Tom, now we are really getting off the track, because I’ve lost confidence in the Bible, I’ve lost confidence in the Lord, who says: Come unto me, I will give you rest. Paul says, Rejoice in the Lord always, and again I say, Rejoice. But how can I rejoice in the Lord when it doesn’t work. I need professional help. I think the listeners get the point. So that is a basic problem right there, because the Bible—well, I’m still willing to say it’s inerrant, but I don’t think it’s really sufficient. Even though Paul, somehow got along without it, and for 1900 years the church got along with it. I read about those triumphant people in Hebrews 11, they didn’t have any psychiatric or psychological counseling. This is something new that came along 150 years ago or so, and somehow, now we’ve all go the idea that—wow! How did the church get along without this? Well, I guess this is what we all need, and Tom, it isn’t true! —I’ve lost my faith in the Bible and in Christ and I’m off on the wrong track, and you’ve just been telling us the outcome studies. It simply doesn’t work, but I’m determined to believe it because I know I’ve got to have professional help!
Tom:
Well, again, to qualify that, Dave, according to the research, it works to a mild or moderate degree, but on what basis? And as we have said, not on the basis of the techniques or the therapies. It works on this basis: Number One: It’s the client himself, it’s the individual himself, is he willing to change? Now, we’re telling our listeners, or our viewers this Dave, because we don’t want them to be intimidated by the myth that we talked about, that it’s scientific, that only professionals can do it. So, again, going back to the basis of how it works and why it works to a moderate degree. It works because the person, it only works if the person is willing to change. Now if I am ministering to another individual as, you know, and I’m counseling—
Dave:
Tom, I’m going to interrupt you there. If I’m willing to change—but part of that change, unfortunately is I’ve changed my view about the Bible, it’s not sufficient. I’m looking to psychology instead of to Christ. Okay, so I’m willing to change, and how am I going to change—
Tom:
Now, we’re pushing towards Truth. Is it something that’s true to God’s Word, or not true to God’s Word? So that’s a problem within this. But nevertheless, whether you’re ministering to somebody according to the Scriptures or whether somebody goes to a psychological counselor, they have to be willing to change. They are both entities, or dead in the water. The other part of it is, you’re going to somebody, you’re actually talking with somebody, so they call that the therapeutic alliance, that’s there a relationship that develops between the psychologist, psychotherapist and the individual that’s having the problem.
Dave:
But Tom, let me talk about that relationship. It’s a professional-client relationship.
Tom:
Without a doubt, they are paying big money big time, or your insurance company is.
Dave:
Right, and why is this person even talking to me? Because this is his profession. He’s got all kinds of other clients, and no matter how he may put his arm around me and pat me on the shoulder, or whatever and try to assure me of his real interest, he’s thinking about that next client. I don’t want to be too judgmental, but Tom, it couldn’t be otherwise. What I need is a real friend. In fact, what I need is a fellowship of believers, and a group of people who will pray with me and who will help me. But that’s another problem because a lot of churches are not that way.
Tom:
No, so on the one hand we’re talking about this not just to put down people who are sincerely trying to help other people, and they have degrees. We’re saying they don’t need that, but the Church has the problem because they’ve abandoned this, as someone said, they’ve sold their birthright for a pot of beans.
Dave:
Tom, I’ve talked to a number of young people, and they tell me that they are going to major in psychology in college, and I say, well, why are you going to do that? Well, I want to help people. Well, can’t you help them from the Bible? Well, but the church won’t support anyone for counseling. Well, they’ll support a music director, or whatever, isn’t this really important? Yeah, but you’ve got to have a degree so you can charge for it because otherwise you can’t get paid.
Tom:
Well, you have to get a license if you’re going to charge for it.
Dave:
That’s right.
Tom:
But that’s not the biblical way anyway, Dave, right?
Dave:
But Tom, what I’m saying is what you were just pointing out, there are people who sincerely want to help others, but you get caught in a trap because you’ve got to make a living—I can’t spend too much time on this person, I mean, I have to charge them for every minute I am with them, and you’ve got to be careful you can’t get too friendly with your patients.
Tom:
You want to stay objective.
Dave:
That’s right. So Tom, what I need is a (the patient now) I need a real friend, who has a sincere interest in me and isn’t getting paid for taking the time to help me, that’s what I need. Tom, it’s a problem, a serious problem in the church. When you look at it objectively, you look at it logically, it’s got a wrong foundation, it’s not going to work, and furthermore, the psychology doesn’t work and these guys have—well, who was it that we were talking about the other day, Oh yes, well I won’t name his name, but anyway, a pastor that badly fell recently, a very prominent leader, and now he’s going to study psychology, going back to school to study psychology. And a number of Christian psychologists said, Well, that’s a good idea because that’s how most of us got into this profession in the first place. We had our problems and we wanted to find out—they went down the wrong path to find out. Anyway, Tom, I’m really concerned about this because people are being led down the primrose path, and they are believing. They’ve got degrees! Well, they must be right, they must know what they’re talking about!
Tom:
Yeah, so Dave, as we’ve been saying, there’s an intimidation out there that ought not to be, there’s really no basis for it. We have the Word of God, and although the problem may seem overwhelming because the church has opted for psychological counseling, psychotherapy and so on, even as you said, pastors getting their degrees, you have churches now have professional psychotherapists on staff, and so on. But isn’t the basis getting back to God’s Word, ministering to one another according to Galatians chapter 6: Bear ye one another’s burdens? There are so many things that we could be doing as a church that we’re not doing. I think that’s why we’re doing this program.
Dave:
Tom, lest they think we are just talking theoretically, I have been in some horrific positions, well, taking things behind the Iron Curtain, and you get thrown in jail. In the business world I had to take over the management of some hopelessly bankrupt corporations. I mean, the creditors are after me, they’re beating me up practically. What am I going to do? Well, I just say, Lord, this is a hopeless situation, there is nothing I can do, I’m just going to trust you because I’m in your hands, you’re my shepherd. Read the 23 rd Psalm again: “The Lord is my shepherd.” Read some of these Psalms where David was in such predicaments, they were hopeless. He found his rest in his assurance in the Lord. The psychiatrist or psychologist is not going to be able to give that to you.
Tom:
Dave, there is a whole other side to psychological counseling that we need to think about, and that is, it’s very subjective nature. We said it’s not scientific, it cannot be scientific, it is not objective, there is no laws—you don’t have laws of mind, and so on, so the incredible feelings, orientation of this. Well, when a psychotherapist is ministering to another person it all comes down to how you “feel” about it. Now what does that say about the Word of God? Are we to go by our feelings? There is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death, that’s what the Scriptures says. Not feelings.
Dave:
We walk by faith, Tom, by trust in our Lord and in His Word, and if we are not going to do that.
