Is Psychotherapy Only Subjective Opinion?

Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, we’re glad you could join us. Coming up in today’s program in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and “What did the silversmiths of Ephesus have against Paul?” In Religion in the News, “Is homosexuality natural?” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Should Christians turn off all images?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disc or DVD. You may also subscribe to our monthly Newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program.

Now, this week’s Cover Article. Tom and Dave continue our series of programs based on their book, Psychology in the Church: Critical Questions, Crucial Answers . This week we focus on the question, “Is psychotherapy only subjective opinion?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.

Tom:

Thanks, Gary . You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. Our topic for this first segment of our program is, Psychology in the Church, and the series we’ve been doing on the subject is loosely based upon the DVD we produced with the same title, Psychology in the Church, Critical Questions, Crucial Answers. As we have explained throughout the series, when we use the term “psychology” we are referring to the dominant field of psychology known as, psychotherapy or psychological counseling. In past programs we’ve established that psychotherapy is not scientific, but rather it’s comprised of—well, the subjective opinion, speculations of people who think they have the concepts and methods for fixing the problems of humanity.

Dave:

And Tom, what you just said is not based on our opinion, it’s not based upon the opinion of the critics. The psychologists and psychiatrists themselves have come to this conclusion.

Tom:

Right, and these would be research psychologists, psychiatrists as opposed to practitioners, those who are in the field trying to help people.

Dave:

And Tom, a little interruption here, it’s very simple actually. If you could make a science out of human behavior you’ve reduced us to stimulus response mechanisms, without a will, without choice, without any real emotions? Come on, you cannot do that! So it cannot possibly be a science.

Tom:

Right. Dave, along that line I’d like to discuss the subjective nature of psychological counseling, especially its emphasis upon self, you know, one’s feelings. And I want to begin with Proverbs:14:12There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death., 16:25 . Twice in Proverbs we have this: “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death.” Now, today’s current thinking is—what? How can it be so wrong when it feels so right? So, what about this whole area of feelings, and how it has influenced many in the church.

Dave:

Well, Tom, that just puts its finger right on the problem here. You see, there would be a place for psychology in the church if, and only if the Bible did not have the answers that we need. Now, that would be rather odd, considering the fact that for thousands, literally thousands of years, men and women of God, who have gone through trials like most of us have never even imagined—read in Hebrews 11, they are stoned, they are sawed asunder, they are hated and persecuted, they are chased here and there and they dwell in dens and caves in the earth, or think about Paul, you know all that he went through, and yet they found the Bible, they found the Lord and His Word sufficient. In fact they triumphed by faith in Him! Now, if that history has gone by and these are the great heroes and heroines of the faith, and we have a testimony of scripture itself that says that He has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness, wouldn’t it seem really odd that along comes some atheists, occultists, really evil men, Freud, Jung and Rogers lives.

Tom:

Just check their biographies whose lives were so messed up, well, you would think, why would anybody go to these guys for counseling?

Dave:

Right, but here they come, and somehow now, through them, we have been given another part of the truth, apparently,—all truth is God’s truth, is what the psychologists say. We have been given another part of the truth that was essential! How did these flaming souls down through history triumph and put us to shame, and let alone put Freud and the rest of them—they weren’t even Christians, they were anti-Christians. Tom, on the very face of it, it’s just absurd, it’s more than absurd it’s laughable, it’s ridiculous! And that the church would then turn to these men for counsel and say— Well, Tom, I don’t know if we’ve even talked about this—integration. Well now we are going to integrate these godless theories of these atheists that don’t work and we are going to integrate it into the Bible and that implies that the Bible is lacking something all of these centuries, all of these thousands of years. Now Tom, it doesn’t make sense, I cannot buy this!

Tom:

Dave, I want to get back to the subjective nature, the Bible, some have called it the Manufacturer’s Handbook.

Dave:

Right.

Tom:

God creates us, and He knows everything about us, He’s the Alpha and Omega, He knows every thought we will ever have, He knows why we do this or why we do that, and so on. And He gives, in the Manufacturer’s Handbook, He gives instructions, so this is objective. This is not something that some men made up, and so on, it’s God’s Word for our lives, as you quoted 2 Peter:1:3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:. God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness, they come from our Creator, and if we will do those things, and follow those things—our lives, at least are going to be pleasing to Him, which is, to me Dave, that’s the greatest thing anybody could say about anyone. He lived a life that was pleasing to God, right?

Dave:

Yeah.

Tom:

But I’m not going to make those things up, I’m not going to come up with ideas and concepts that solve my problems that are contrary to the Word of God, or that I think, maybe in my ignorance I just want to help Him out here.

Dave:

Or make you feel good about yourself, it’s mainly about self.

Tom:

Right.

Dave:

So Tom, the whole thing doesn’t make sense. I was just reading something by John Cole, and, well, he gave a talk, as you may recall, why biblical counseling is not biblical, do you remember that? And what he has to prove, you see, to justify his position as a psychologist and a Christian, what he has to prove is, that the Bible is not sufficient. So that all these people from these thousands of years, who triumphed gloriously,—wow, their lives put us to shame—somehow they got along without something that was really missing from the Bible, and now he’s going to show why we need more than the Bible has, why we need to turn to these humanists and atheists, and so forth, because the Word of God is not sufficient, contrary to the testimony of the lives and of the Bible itself. So what are we going to rely upon? Well, as you’re pointing out, our subjective feelings. And I’ve talked to people, I’m sure you have. Well, it doesn’t work. Well, the Bible doesn’t work. Well, I tried. Well then I guess God is a liar, and I guess these other, all I can call them is, blazing souls who burned out for God and who left a mark on history that would inspire you as we read the Word of God, or you want to read about some of the saints since then—Hudson Taylor, Jonathan Goforth, C. T. Studd. I mean, you can name them, or great preachers like Spurgeon.

Tom:

Let me go back to these missionaries. You know, of course now today missionaries have to go through psychological profiles. We have to see if they are really equipped mentally, emotionally, spiritually to enter into the mission field. Do you think those guys that you just mentioned went through that?

Dave:

No, they were called of God, and they triumphed by faith. Okay, but now here we are, Tom, “It doesn’t work. I tried it.” Well then, either there is something wrong with the Bible— Which makes it very odd that all of these thousands, down through thousands of years, found the Bible sufficient, and somehow, you have detected, in contrast to all of them, that there is something missing from the Bible, and that’s why it won’t work for you. Wow, you are really setting yourself up as the great expert on spirituality and truth, and this is what Christian psychology does. I shouldn’t say it again, but I will, and I get angry, Tom. I get angry, not so much at these men who certainly know better, but I get angry because of the lives that they have destroyed and the lies that they have told to the church, and convinced people that God’s Word is not sufficient and that we need some help from Freud, Jung, Rogers, Maslow, you name them, Adler, and so forth. Tom, it’s wicked!

Tom:

Dave, we’ve received letters, you know, more than twenty-five years now, we started talking about psychology, psychotherapy in The Seduction of Christianity , that’s twenty-one, twenty-two years ago, yet the common complaint about those who have seen either secular psychologists or those who call themselves Christian psychologists, even those who promote family marriage counseling, and so on, or integrationists have added the concepts of psychotherapy, they’ve all said, almost uniformly, “We were turned to self.” We came in, we were trying to resolve some issues between, you know, husband and wife, or issues in their own life, but over and over again they were turned back to self. Because, as we have said in past programs here, Dave, that’s what it’s about, isn’t it? Self is the solution to man’s problems according to, not just humanistic psychology, but all the other ones to some degree.

Dave:

Well, where else are you going to turn? If God is not sufficient and His Word isn’t sufficient, it doesn’t really work, Christ living in you, the hope of glory, being crucified with Christ, there’s no more “I” but Christ living in me. Now if that doesn’t work, then what do we have left? Well, you have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and somehow, you’re going to have to straighten out your life. Well, if you follow—

Tom:

It’s without denying self, by the way.

Dave:

Yeah, and if you follow these principles now we can help you. You know, Tom, I don’t think we’ve mentioned this, or maybe we have but it would be a long time ago, not in this context, I can’t help but think back to the lady who called in to a program run by two Christian psychiatrists all across the country. And you remember, she said, “I just get in bed with everybody— I just can’t help myself, and what can you offer to me?” What did they say? “You have an addiction to sex. Now, probably your father was a milk toast, and your mother was overbearing, and this goes back to your childhood, and this could take months, probably years, of therapy.” Tom, therapy for what? Well, I’m going to help me get my life straightened out again. No, you need to be crucified with Christ, you need to realize that you are dead, Christ has come to live His life in you. You can accept this by faith, if this is what you really want. But first of all, Tom, you put your finger on it a couple of minutes ago, you must give up your own life, you must give up your own ideas, you must give up your own self, your own ambitions, and first of all say, Lord, not my will but thine be done. Now what do you want to do with me, Lord? And when you do that, you put yourself in His hands, everything is going to change. Remember Tom, I often use the illustration of a young man; he’s praying for a wife, he says. Oh, God, lead me to the woman you have planned to be my life’s partner, but please let it be Joanne! Well, how can God lead him to Mary or Alice or somebody else who may be the one God has picked, he already has his mind made up what he wants. So, prayer—we go back over this many times, Tom, but very basic, prayer for many people, probably for most Christians, is a religious technique to get our own way. We decide what we want, and then we try to talk God into working it out for us. And Jesus said, You haven’t begun to pray until you say, Not my will, but thine be done. It’s a difference, Tom, it’s pretty basic, very basic, it’s the difference between persuading God to give me what I want, and to make my life what I would like it to be, or allowing Him to give me what He knows I need, and to guide me in the path He has chosen.

Tom:

And Dave, you know, we’re not denying that there are not struggles out there, that people have gotten into habitual sins that it may be more difficult, but doesn’t change anything. The solution is still what you said, you have to be willing in your heart, and God can help you with this, the Holy Spirit, to want what He wants before what I want, Dave.

Dave:

Tom, it’s actually—and I don’t want to become too rational, too intellectual, but it is a rational choice. Years gone by I have counseled a lot of university students, high school students, and so forth. We used to have meetings in our home, which I can’t do now because I’m traveling too much, but I’ve often said to them, Look, if Satan has a better deal, follow him. If Satan has a better deal than God, follow him. Think it over carefully. Is what he offers you better? Well, how is it going to turn out in the end? See, the Bible speaks of, deceitfulness, youthful lusts that war against the soul. You have to be kind of rational, it can’t be just emotional. Because how I feel about it and what I want because we can be deceived. What seems to be so desirable for the moment— It overwhelms you with the passion to do it. It turns out not to be the right thing in the end. Well then, we had better ask God to help us to see things clearly from His perspective, and to have the wisdom to recognize—well, it doesn’t take too much wisdom, Tom, we want to obey Him. We want to follow His will, He’s our Creator, you said it, He’s the Manufacturer, and we want to please Him. Well, what else could there be? Well, why are we here?

Tom:

But Dave, somebody comes to you—you’ve counseled a lot, I counsel, probably too much of the time. But no, we have to make ourselves available, we have to minister to one another, so forgive me for that. But Dave, somebody comes and they say, You don’t understand, Tom, I just can’t help myself. Yeah, I beat up my wife every once in a while, but something just comes over me, and I just can’t control myself, and you know, is this a spiritual thing? I mean, what is this, Dave, help me here.

Dave:

Well, you remember what I said—

Tom:

I’m setting you up, Dave.

Dave:

Yes. I’m counseling a young couple, and that’s basically what he said. He’s physically abusing her, not all the time but just like that, He says, I can’t help it, that’s the way my father did to my mother, and it just comes over me. And I just looked at him, I said, Don’t give me this nonsense. If she was a 6’, 8”, 300 pound, 10 ^th degree black belt in karate, you wouldn’t haul off and slug her, I guarantee to that! This guy had a business, and if she was a—

Tom:

Why wouldn’t he, maybe people haven’t heard that punch line—

Dave:

Why wouldn’t he? Well, any idiot knows you don’t haul off and—

Tom:

He might do it once, and then when he got out of the hospital, got out of traction.

Dave:

Right, yeah, it just isn’t rational. Okay, that’s what we’re talking about, what’s rational? And then, I said, because they had a business and they needed some money at the time, if she was a multi- billionaire, and she was ready to put 10 million dollars in your business, and you’re negotiating about this, and talking about it, and wanting to get a contract, I don’t think you’d would haul off and slug her!

Tom:

I think self control would be the item for him.

Dave:

Exactly, and Tom, we live here in Oregon , and this is a new age place to a large degree and a very liberal state, but I cannot forget the—was it an editorial, or was it an article in The Oregonian or one of the Oregon papers here about California . Remember, California had their self esteem task force and started by John Vasconcellos assemblyman in California , and they’re going to show that our big problem which, I’m sorry, James Dobson has been saying this for years—

Tom:

Well, it’s been through the church, Dave, we’ve heard sermon after sermon preached on this, building your self esteem.

Dave:

Dr. Dobson said, If I had a—what would we need, I give them a prescription for a heavy dose of self esteem three times a day. Okay. Now, California was going to prove that that was the problem, that’s why kids get into drugs, and crime and all kinds of things, and so they had a task force. The worked on this to prove that self esteem is what they needed. You remember, some of the students said, What’s the point of trying, no matter what you do they praise you. And I remember this article, or editorial in the Oregon newspaper that said, California ? Self esteem? What you need is self control instead of self esteem! And Tom, our young people are out of control. Because you remember the tests, very quickly, they give to graduating seniors around the world, the Americans came out #1 in self esteem. They are way down on the bottom of third world countries for math and science and so forth.

Tom:

Say, Dave, if our listeners, maybe we’ve upset many, I don’t know, but all we’re trying to do is reason with them, present the documentation, present statistics, but also just to appeal to the common sense. Self is, as we’ve said, the solution for the world, it’s all we have to work with and so on, but that’s not the biblical way. The biblical way is to deny self. Do what’s pleasing to God, He’s given it to us in His Word, if we’re truly believers we have His Holy Spirit to give us understanding and to enable us to do the things that God would have us do.

Dave:

Well Tom, I don’t think anyone can argue with that. What then is this psychology in the church? Well, you know, you guys—remember, we were meeting with one of these psychologists, the leaders, one of the best known, most highly regarded, what does he say? “You guys just dispense Bible verses like pills, you know.” Well, No, we’re trying to call people to the Word of God. God says, Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord, Isaiah:1:18Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.: Though your sins be as scarlet, shall be white as snow, or they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. And God says, If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good of the land; if not, my judgment will come upon you. It’s very simple, Tom.

Tom:

Well Dave, we’re just trying to call the church back to that, that’s all.

Dave:

This is God’s universe, He made it, I think He has the right to make the rules. Not only does He have the right to make the rules, but as you pointed out, He knows what's best for us—Wow! Well then, let’s obey Him, and let’s give heed to His Word, and allow Him to—in fact Tom, driving in here today I was just saying, Lord, you’re living in me, I wish I could see more of that. Really? Christ in you, the hope of glory, that’s what the Bible says, Lord, that’s what I want.