Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, we’re glad you could tune in. Coming up in today’s program in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and “Why would people listen to Paul preach all night?” In Religion in the News, “Could Pope Benedict become Mormon?” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Why did Jesus tell Peter three times to ‘feed my sheep’?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk or DVD. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program.
Now, this week’s Cover Article. Tom and Dave continue our series of programs based on their book, Psychology and the Church: Critical Questions, Crucial Answers . This week we focus on the question, “Should pastors rely on psychologists?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.
Tom:
Thanks, Gary . You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. We’ve been discussing the topic of psychology and the Church for a number of weeks now and the question has been posed, “why spend so much time on the subject?” Well, for starters, nothing, and we’ve been saying this week after week, Dave, nothing has so undermined the belief in the sufficiency of the scriptures as has the introduction of and dependency upon psychological counseling and concepts that have entered into the Church. Sermons today dealing with issues of life are too often supported by so-called experts in the world. Famous psychiatrists and psychologists are usually the ones quoted, supposedly adding credibility and their own solutions, of course. So, psychological concepts have been transformed into doctrines accepted by much of the Church such as the humanistic teaching of “self love,” “self-esteem,” and today, Dave, it’s amazing, really tragic, I think. There are more than 50,000 members of the American Association of Christian Counselors, an organization committed to integration of psychology and Christianity. Dave, as you know, I could go on with example after example…
Dave:
Well, let me give you a few…
Tom:
Well, I just don’t think we’re belaboring it, that’s my point.
Dave:
Right, right. I was just reading, well, I’m reading a lot of books, in fact it’s got your name on the front, Tom. How did I get it, I don’t know. But, it’s by John D. Carter, is his name John? Well, it’s by Narramore and Carter from Rosemead, and they begin the book by extolling the virtues and rejoicing in the fact, and I mean, I wish I had it in front of me right now to read it. They talk about that it’s the biggest section in the Christian bookstores, that the Christian publishers have really gone after this, that these are their most popular books the authorities in the church now, the speakers at conferences. In fact, they even said that psychologists and psychological counseling and basic things upon on psychology have replaced the gospel meeting, have replaced the exegesis of the scripture. And they went on and on about the impact that psychology has had in the church.
Tom:
And they think it’s a good thing.
Dave:
They think it’s a good thing.
Tom:
Unbelievable!
Dave:
And Tom, of course the impact on the world, and you consider that the psychologists, the psychiatrists, they have wanted to really be the rulers of society because they are the only ones who have the answer to how people can keep on an even keel emotionally, and they can get the aggressions out of the world rulers—if they could only give counseling to these leaders, and give them the drugs that would calm them down, and so forth.
Tom:
Dave, in the seventies, I just read this the other day, and going through past articles that we have been putting together for, you know, the book that we are working on. In the 1970’s Psychology Today, there was a recommendation, more than a suggestion, I will say, that parents undergo psychological testing to decide whether they should be allowed to have children or not.
Dave:
Right, yeah. Well, Tom, so that’s where we are. Psychology has become the expert on human behavior, the ones who are going to decide whether you are sane or insane, whether you need drugs or psychological counseling, they want to put their finger in every pie, in every part of society, but Tom, we’re talking about it in the church. Now, how long has this great wisdom been around? First of all, it’s not a science, and you still read that in books by Christian psychologists: the scientific way to approach the soul. We’ve gone over that in the past; if you could make a science out of human behavior you have just destroyed man as God made him because you cannot have a science when the subject of your experiment is hopping about capriciously with a free will and you don’t know what he is going to do next.
Tom:
Or can you have a science of mind, Dave? Not the brain, but the mind a non physical entity.
Dave:
Right. I was just refreshing myself on B. F. Skinner again. Well, his favorite experimental animal, creature I guess, was a bird, a pigeon, but he liked rats also, and he designed what is still known as the Skinner Box. It was a cage to keep them in, and he had various—Tom, he even studied—this is a Harvard University professor, and he spends so many years studying the behavior of pigeons. Because he was sure that he could show how superstitions arose in human beings, and that the psychologists would use rats, little creatures, you know, like this, had no relationship to mankind, they are trying to study man, and that brings us to another point, Tom, the brain. Freud had a medical model, he was a medical man, everything was—well, Skinner, they don’t believe in the soul, they don’t believe in the Spirit, they don’t believe in God, so they are trying to find out how stimuli in the world around us program us or condition us to make these condition responses, they would call it, and this gets back to Darwinism. We’re not related to animals. Tom, I was just mentioning to some friends we had for dinner that they probably didn’t know, the DNA in a garden slug is exactly like yours.
Tom:
Really, Dave, that’s not going to do anything to my self esteem!
Dave:
No, that’s right. The DNA, in fact, in all living things have the same language, the same alphabet, the same letters, plants, animals, you name it, insects, spiders, microbes, the DNA is the same. Now, I would suggest that—
Tom:
That sounds like a case for evolution here, what’s going on?
Dave:
Well, Tom, I would suggest that the fact that my DNA, or human DNA is related to plants is no more proof that we are descended from plants. I’ve never heard that one yet, that we are descended from plants and the similarity in DNA with animals proves we’ve descended from animals. Now, in fact—I shouldn’t get into this, but it’s related to psychology.
Tom:
Yeah, keep going.
Dave:
DNA will not allow evolution. In Genesis chapter one God said, They will bring forth after their kind, DNA defines the kind. Now you can have big dogs, little dogs, fat dogs, hairless dogs and long-haired dogs, you can have all kinds of variety, it is in the genes, it’s just the combinations of the genes, okay. Or you could have some mistakes in copying, there are copying errors, about one in a million, I think, is a copying error, but you’re not going to get over this barrier to make a new species because it’s defined in the DNA. The species is defined in the DNA, and that is information. This is incredibly complex instruction manual how to build, how to tell that little cell that we all began as, about the size of a period at the end of a sentence. How that cell knows how to build a body with a hundred trillion cells, thousands of different kinds and the incredible machinery in it. Okay, it’s all written down in instructions, it’s in words, and it’s coded and it takes certain protein molecules to decode it! I mean, Tom, it’s so incredible! It defines the kind and you can’t get from one to another. Okay. Now, we had better get back to what God has said in His Word, because we know a lot of things that Freud didn’t know, a whole lot of them, he didn’t know anything about DNA. But we now know that there is no physical life without words, you’ve got to have a language, you’ve got to have it defined. And the Bible tells us—we may have mentioned this before—very clearly, well, read what it says. I think it’s about 7 or 8 times in Genesis 1, and God said, God said, Let there be light, and there was light. God said, Let us make man in our image and in our likeness. And then of course you get to Hebrews 11: By faith we understand the worlds were framed by the Word of God, okay, and the Word of God divides asunder soul, spirit, joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. So when we come to—well, that’s talking about DNA really, how are you going to divide between joints and marrow, that’s pretty close, DNA defines it, defines everything. But when we get to 1 Peter chapter 1, beginning Verse 23: We are born again by the Word of God, that liveth and abideth forever, and this is the Word, which by the gospel is preached unto you. Okay. So now, Tom, what are we talking about here, and why do we spend so much time on psychology in exposing it? Because, as we’ve reminded our viewers and listeners and we will remind them again, the major problem that we are concerned about with psychology is, although psychologists may embrace the inerrancy of scripture, they deny the sufficiency, and they have literally replaced the Word of God. The Word of God does not have all that we need to live a happy fulfilled life, that’s what it claims that it has, but we need the words of Freud and Jung and Rogers and Maslow and Skinner, and all these anti Christians to a man. And you mentioned integration, this is what would be the basis for Christian psychology today, Rosemead , graduate school of psychology, affiliated with Talbot and with Biola.
Tom:
Dave, you can go from coast to coast, as we’ve mentioned, start Liberty University, Trinity, the Midwest, Fuller out here, and from in between. This is the most popular career choice in universities, secular, Christian, or otherwise.
Dave:
And Tom, so what are they trying to do, the Christians? They are trying to integrate the Bible, theology, they call it, and psychology. Now, for 1900 years then the church didn’t have this. Peter didn’t know about it; Paul didn’t know about it; Jesus never preached it, and yet they have the audacity—I’m starting to get angry now, Tom, so I’m going to calm down. These men have the audacity to say that the Bible is deficient, that we need help from these humanists, these atheists, these anti Christians!
Tom:
Dave, the complaints here with regard to what we’ve been talking about, you began by mentioning B. F. Skinner, working with rats, working with different animals, birds and so on, and they would say, Look, we’re not into humanism. When I say “they” I’m talking about Christians who were defending their position as psychologists, psychotherapists. They would say, We’re not into that, we’re into cognitive behavior, we’re into helping people, like children, potty training children, you know, we’ve heard that before, and other things, fears of this or that. So we want to help them correct their behavior. Now, what’s wrong with that?
Dave:
Well, it depends on what kind of behavior. If you’re a baseball coach or a football coach, you can help the guys do that. If you’re a mechanic you could probably train people in how to repair engines, and so forth. That’s not the subject of the Bible. The Bible says He has given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness. Now, I keep going back to 2 Timothy Chapter 3, let’s begin at Verse 15. Paul writes to Timothy, From a child you have known the holy scriptures which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. And then he learned the Bible, and he didn’t have any psychological training. Paul seemed to think that that was good, that was enough. He didn’t say, Timmy, your problem is you’re born 1900 years too soon. We don’t have Biola, we don’t have Liberty University, we don’t have these courses, you know, in psychology which are very, very important and essential, but unfortunately the church has been left by the Holy Spirit without them, and it will be left like this for 1900 years and we don’t know how they are possibly going to get through that period. But anyway—
Tom:
So therefore, with regard to what you just said, there’s not much we can learn from rats, or fish, or birds, or whatever. In other words they are conditioning this behavioral modification that these so-called scientists are telling us we can use in our lives. It doesn’t work, especially not with what you are talking about.
Dave:
It does not work because, Number One, we are not related to those creatures. Tom, I want to come back to 2 Timothy 3, but I was reading a book that I read, it must be forty years ago; The Difference of Man and the Difference it Makes , by Mortimer J. Adler. Mortimer J. Adler, by the way, never finished high school. I think he dropped out at the age of 14.
Tom:
Didn’t he write a classic on, How to Read a Book?
Dave:
You’re right, you’re right, listen, this guy was brilliant. He was the Editor in Chief of the Encyclopedia Britannica , for many years. He was the guy that came up with the idea of the great books of the Western world, which we have a set of.
Tom:
He was not a Christian, as far as I know.
Dave:
Not then, he was not, but he wrote a book, The Difference of Man and the Difference it Makes . What was this difference? He said, A man’s—he was an agnostic at this point, no, I think he was an atheist because he began as an agnostic and then he became an atheist—Well, the difference is, man’s ability to form conceptual ideas and express them in words, he said that is a chasm that separates man and animals and it cannot possibly be crossed by any evolutionary process.
Tom:
Not even porpoise?
Dave:
Nope, they never know what they’re talking about, those porpoises, but I mean they know certain instinctive things.
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
Okay, so this—now we’re talking about the Word of God, we’re talking about man’s ability to reason, but there are people who have terrible superstitions. You know, they cross themselves—Woops, sorry about that, they avoid the number 13, or they are into astrology—
Tom:
Kissing icons.
Dave:
Yes, and I point out in one of the chapters in this book that we are doing, that’s foolish, astrology. Somebody has said the obstetrician’s body probably had a greater influence on you, on your body gravitationally, than any star out there.
Tom:
Dave, can I throw in a Dr. Carl Popper quote for you, related to this?
Dave:
All right.
Tom:
One of the greatest philosophers of science, after thorough study of psychotherapy he came to this conclusion about the subjective nature of psychological interpretations of behavior: “No posing of sciences had in fact more in common with primitive myths than with science. They resembled astrology rather than astronomy.
Dave:
Right. So, you can’t make astrology work, okay. You couldn’t get a conditioned response out of astrology is the point I am trying to make. You have to reason about this, and even though you know it’s unreasonable, they keep it up. But Tom, let me get back to it’s not a conditioned response. In other words, human beings do not act that way. They have wrong ideas that cause them to do things.
Tom:
But you could generalize about it. You could say, well, a group of people would most likely do this.
Dave:
Let me get back to 2 Timothy, we need to get back to the Word of God. So Paul goes on in Verse 16: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable, or to be used for, doctrine—you don’t get that in psychology, they’ve abandoned doctrine—doctrine is not popular—doctrine, reproof,—No, that’s negative, you wouldn’t do that—correction, instruction in righteousness, but now this is the verse I’m thinking of, Verse 17: That the man, or woman, or boy or girl, of God may be perfect—that doesn’t mean without sin, it means mature, complete, what God wants you to be---thoroughly furnished unto every good work. Now that tells me that the Bible is all I need. Do I want to please God? Do I want to be what He wants me to be? Then go to the Word of God and you will receive instruction. Do I want to do good works? Do I want my life to be fruitful? Go to the Word of God. The Word of God is sufficient, and you will be thoroughly furnished unto every good work. Now along comes psychology, and well, you know, well, that was an old-fashioned idea, but you know people have problems today and we’ve really got to help them and the Bible doesn’t really have anything like that.
Tom:
Traditional stuff, Dave, doesn’t really cut right to the chase.
Dave:
Right. So Tom, this is why we talk so much about psychology. It has undermined the Word of God, you don’t need the Bible anymore. Read these books by psychologists. Oh yes, we’ve got a verse here that says, Thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself. Well, what do you know? It was Eric Fromm in what? 1947, he explained that verse to the church. Well, that means you hate yourself, you’ve got to learn to love yourself before you can love others. Robert Schuller picked it up in his book, Self Love the Dynamic Force of Success . It comes from every pulpit now, Tom.
Tom:
Fromm got it from Frederich Neitche, the God-hater. God is dead—Come on!
Dave:
He died insane, as I recall.
Tom:
Yes, he did.
Dave:
So Tom, when they do go to the Bible it’s to support their theories. It is not to exegete the Bible and to find out what does God really say. And is this the Instruction Manual, the Manufacturer’s Instruction Manual, or not? No, no, we’re going to pick a verse here and there and see if we can massage one around somehow and make it seem that self-esteem, self-love, self this and self that, that’s what the Bible—No, no, no, Jesus said deny self. You cannot find that in psychology, and you cannot find psychology in the Bible, and Tom, it is a very severe problem both for secular society and the church.
Tom:
Dave, you bring up an important point. I know in my own heart, in my own walk with the Lord, I’m under conviction about it. You said the Word of God is the Manufacturer’s Handbook, it’s His instructions.
Dave:
Amen.
Tom:
I asked myself, how often to do I go to the Book for instructions? Not as often as I should, Dave, but as you read it you say, Well, wait a minute, Jesus wants me to do that. Do what He says. He will enable me. If I know Him and love Him, and He’s given me His Holy Spirit by faith, okay, I’ve come to know Him.
Dave:
Tom, that’s not enough, you need some help from Freud, and all these guys.
Tom:
Sadly, that’s where we are today, Dave.
Dave:
Yeah, that is what the Christian psychologist teaches, and it is not biblical and it is not right, and it is destructive.
