What Is The Emerging Church?

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Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael; it’s great to have you tuned in. Coming up in today’s program in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and “Paul’s Defense Before Felix Continues.” In Religion in the News: “Islamonauts.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Can We Turn Someone Over to Satan?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk or DVD. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s Cover Article. Tom and Dave begin a new series of programs addressing the spiritual movement known as “The Emerging Church.”   This week we focus on the question: “What Exactly is the Emerging Church ?”   Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.

Tom:

Thanks, Gary . You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him.   We are beginning a series on the Emerging church in this first segment of our program and if you are not familiar with this development within evangelical Christianity, this is a good opportunity for you to become informed about it.   And of course our approach to every thing we present on this program is to hold it up to the light of scripture just as the Bereans of Acts:17:10And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. & 11 did.   Also as Isaiah wrote: “To the law and the testimony: if they speak not according to this word (that is God’s Word) there is no light in them.”   And that is Isaiah:8:20To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.. And of course what I am talking about here applies to what the leaders of the emerging church movement are saying and doing, but also whatever we’re saying about it.   Right, Dave?  

            Dave:

            Amen.  

            Tom:

            So you need to check us out as well, making sure that we are true to the scriptures.   The emerging church movement is an evangelical phenomenon that is growing rapidly here in the U. S. and abroad.   It’s attracting primarily people mainly between the ages of 18-30 who for the most part, have an evangelical background.   Our plan today is to go over some of the emerging church beliefs and practices rather briefly and then to consider them in more detail as we continue this series.   Now Dave, what about the emerging church movement in general?   Why should we be concerned about this trend and really any other trends that we see coming into the church really capturing the hearts and minds of believers today?

            Dave:

            Well Tom, I have a lot of problems to begin with in response to your question.   Emerging—emerging from what?   Emerging from a cocoon?   Is the church just emerging?   Didn’t Jesus say more than 1900 years ago, “On this rock I will build my church? And the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” So that takes some explanation.   What are we talking about?   It’s emerging from what?   Emerging to do what?   It’s not biblical, first of all.   Then you mentioned it’s an evangelical phenomenon.   Evangelical?   I would question that!  

            Tom:

            Well, they are professed to be evangelicals.

            Dave:

            Right, right, but you read some of the stuff they write—evangelical?   No, they are catering to the culture.   They are not following the word of God, but anyway, Tom, it’s just a new wave.   We’ve got to get with the culture.   We’ve got to re-invent Christianity and so forth, and I think that’s not biblical and it’s ridiculous.    

            Tom:

            Dave, you’ve read quite a bit about this, and so have I.   Part of the problem is that like any movement that comes along, there are some that are unwittingly involved.   In other words, they would say, yes, we are evangelicals, we are interested in sound doctrine and we just want to address the culture, we want to witness to the culture.   So I see some of those individuals, but on the other hand, Dave, some of these are not just anti-evangelical, they are anti-Christ and I make no apologies for that.   As this series continues, we will quote some of these individuals and their beliefs.   Their ideas are so far removed from anything you could find in scripture, they are anti-scripture, which we will get into.   But, let’s begin with some of the aspirations of the emerging church movement.   They want to witness to the culture.   They believe that the church has not been effective in reaching this generation.   Call it Generation X, post-modern, whatever title you give, we are just not reaching the young people today.   That’s their complaint.  

            Dave:

            We have to change the gospel.   Not just the presentation.

            Tom:

            Yes, well some would say no, and some would say well yeah, the medium is the message.   So we change the medium, we are going to change the message.  

            Dave:

            Well Tom, again, I have a very simple mind.   I just go to the Bible and you could just begin to reel off scriptures.   Paul said, “I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.   It is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.”   Obviously, who believes it .   Now it seems to me that the Bible is saying that the gospel doesn’t change.   Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.   The gospel is preached—we’ve got a problem there where we’re presenting it in drama, videos and all kinds of ways—

            Tom:

            Because this is a visual generation.   This is a sensual generation.  

            Dave:

            Right, that’s what they say.   But Paul said to Timothy, II Timothy 4:2:   “Preach the Word, be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.”   Now these are all things that the emerging church people, like the seeker-friendly (it’s related) say well you can’t take that approach with society today.   So now our presentation of the gospel and the gospel itself even, must be changed in order to appeal to society.   Now that is simply wrong.  

            Tom:

            Dave, you said there is a connection here between the seeker-sensitive and the emerging church.   Now, (not in every case) and as I said, in later programs Lord-willing, we’ll get into the details, but just for starters, many who are involved in seeker friendly, seeker-sensitive churches, really consumer-oriented and marketing consumer-oriented approach to witnessing, to bringing the lost into the church, many young people didn’t care for that.   They weren’t interested.   And when I am talking about young people—the target area for the emerging church would be about age 30, give or take a couple of years, down to 18. Eighteen- thirty and they were turned off, many of them were turned off by the Rick Warren, Purpose-driven approach, yet the mentality among the emerging church leaders was—“well, wait a minute, they are consumers, so let’s find something that the kids will go for.   And that’s been the approach.   Find things that appeal to them, as you mentioned—visuals, multi-media, all kinds of things that would keep them interested.   Or in many cases, they went back to, really, what I grew up with.   The liturgy of the Roman Catholic Church, the liturgy in the Orthodox Church, candles, icons, prayer stations, all kinds of rituals and so on, but basically it was a consumer-oriented approach because the kids liked that.   They thought it was more spiritual than the seeker-friendly approach.  

            Dave:

            Well Tom, #1) God is not impressed by rituals.   Making the sign of the cross, whatever it may be.   And this is somehow—if we could get people to do this—oh, that will draw them to Christ?   They’ll like this better—this way of playing church, or this way of doing religion.   I don’t find any difference in people today than ever.   We are all sinners.   They have the same ambitions, same selfishness, the same propensity to try and escape truth by whatever means they can, rationalize in their minds, but we are still sinners, we still need the gospel.   It’s the only way of salvation.   Now, how do you get saved through the gospel?   Well, we’ll put on a skit, we’ll kind of approach it like this….   The gospel must be believed.   The gospel happens to be propositional truth.   It says something.   It must be believed.   These are ideas, not just ideas of course, but this is the truth.   Jesus said, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed…” (John 8:31 ), “…you are my disciples indeed: And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”   We need to be set free from sin and from self.   Jesus said you get it through the word—my word—you pay attention to my word, Jesus says and you obey it and you follow it.   Now that does not change.   If anyone tries to change it then they have undermined the very foundation of the gospel, the very foundation of what God is setting out to do.   Now related to this Tom, and we’ve talked about it in past programs—so what are we going to do?   Well, we’re going to change the Bible.   We’re going to write something called The Message , and we’ll say that this is a translation of the Bible and it is not!   Eugene Petersen has trashed God’s word—just set it aside—put his own words in place of it and calls it a translation of the Bible.   And, oh people love it!   Something deadly is going on Tom!

            Tom:

            Dave, the target group as we have mentioned for the emerging church would be young people,18-30 and we would call them Post-moderns and there are some characteristics that have been identified as post-modern.   I am going to give you a list of these and just go down through, and based on what you’ve said—that the word of God—it’s living and active—I mean it doesn’t change—okay?   It brings about conviction and so on.   You tell me how that is to be applied to these characteristics.   First of all—

            Dave:

            Before you get to the characteristics, let me just make a general comment.   We’ve got a target group—18-30—not biblical.   Jesus said go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature , okay?   It’s the power of God unto salvation, Paul says, to everyone who believes it.   I don’t care what your age is.   You are either going to believe the gospel and be changed by the gospel—you are going to come over on God’s side and you are going to accept what he says—you don’t negotiate with God.  

            Tom:

            Right.   Well, again here are some typical characteristics of a post modern.   He/she disdains authority—especially religious authority.   Now you can interrupt me at any time Dave.  

            Dave:

            Well, Tom right there.   Of course!   But this label “post-modern” — I would say Adam and Eve disdained authority.   Everybody disdains authority.   I didn’t like authority when I was in the Army or Navy or whatever.   We don’t like authority.   So, what’s new?  

            Tom:

            Really.   A post-modern rejects absolutes, truth is relative and it’s only acceptable on the basis of pragmatism.   That is whatever works for the person that’s the person’s truth.  

            Dave:

            Right—that’s just pure nonsense.     I don’t care how old they are or how young they are.   I can talk to a six year old about this.   And anybody—post modern—Tom, I think we’ve mentioned it, maybe we haven’t but remember our eldest son—my—Ruth and I are married—and we have four children, and our eldest son, David—you know him—he’s a philosophy professor and has been for many years.   He gives a test to his class.   Post-modern?   He’s been doing this for 20 years at least.   He gives a test at the introduction to philosophy.   Maybe everybody has to take it—probably.   There are certain things that you must take, you know, to qualify and to get your degree.   He says it hasn’t changed!   He asks is truth absolute or is it relative?   Every time, year after year, 80% of the kids say no-it’s relative.   This is not some new post-modern idea.   Why do they say that?   Because they don’t want to be impaled by the truth!   Now he says to them, I’ll make a deal.   Truth is relative.   If you can give me a truth that is truth for you and not for me, that’s true on this planet and not on some other planet, (now see you understand we are not talking about facts, we are not talking about experiences) we are talking about truth.   That was true yesterday but won’t be true tomorrow, I’ll give you an A in this course, and you don’t have to do anything else.   Well he says, some of them try and by the end of the semester, it’s flipped.   Now 80% of them are sure that truth is absolute!   But there is still 20% that are hanging in there—Tom, they’re idiots!   I shouldn’t use such language, but they are!   Lay it out!   You can’t make up truth, you can’t just invent it.   It’s either true or its false and it doesn’t change.     And the new generation, no matter who they are or what their ideas are, post-modern, or whatever they want to call themselves, they are not going to change the truth.   Jesus Christ—now we are not talking about facts—(I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, you know), Jesus said I AM the TRUTH.   Jesus said thy word is TRUTH—okay?   Now that’s not going to change.   So this post-modern—whoever they are—they are going to have to come around to what God says.   But instead we are catering to them.  

            Tom:

            Umhm, Dave you know as we go through these things you know, there are so many aspects of life that contribute to this delusion, this lie, and psychology is one of them.   I mean the next characteristic is “feelings are the primary judge of what is right and true.”   You know the line, how can it be wrong when it feels so right?  

            Dave:

            Well, Tom again, that’s stupidity!   Because feelings are an individual matter.   Different people have different feelings.   How do you feel about that?   But we’ve got it in our education.   We’ve had this for years.   Well 2 + 2 = 4, how do you feel about that?   Let’s have a discussion.   Let’s talk about it now a little bit.  

            Tom:

            Dialogue.

            Dave:

            Dialogue—instead of being taught the truth—see that’s the problem—these kids have gotten the idea that there are no absolutes.   We are teaching them that there are no rules.   That they can make up their own rules.   So Tom you are going to have to start all over with this generation and you’re going to have to explain a few things to them.   Now, I wrote a lengthy letter, not too long ago, to a young man of 15 who has some real behavior problems.   He’s going to leave home when he is 16 and he’s going to just do what he wants to do and he’s dropped out of school and he doesn’t have to do this—so I just wrote to him and I said some practical things.   What, you are going to live in the street?   Where are you going to sleep?   Where’s the rent money going to come from?   How are you going to buy a bed out there?   Are you going to get a job?   Even McDonald’s will require you show up on time and you do what they want you to do.   Now you are going to find out that you can’t rewrite all the rules, because everyone else in this world is not going to accommodate you.   And then when you come to God you are going to find out that God will not accommodate himself to you.   He’s gracious and merciful but there are things he won’t bend on and one of them is death.   You are going to come to die—that may seem too far away for you at this time—but one day, and you are going to head somewhere and you are going to face God, so you better think about it now and straighten out your life now before it becomes even more difficult.  

            Tom:

            Dave, one of the problems in this with regard to thinking about it now or reasoning with them is that another characteristic is that they prefer mystery and mysticism are valued over logic and reason.  

            Dave:

            Well that’s the Catholic Church, Tom and you grew up in that mystagogy.  

            Tom:

            Well Dave, that’s the charismatic movement.   That’s all kinds of things that have promoted the experiential, the feelings orientation rather than the word and truth.  

            Dave:

            Well, let’s take the gospel.   Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, Paul says, I Corinthians 15.   He was buried and he rose again, the third day according to the scriptures.   How do you feel about that?   No, you don’t say, “How do you feel about that?”   I don’t care how you feel about that.   You better change your feelings because this is a fact.   If thou shalt confess with thy mouth, the Lord Jesus and believe in thine heart that God raised him from the dead—it’s not a mystery, this is something that happened on this planet 1900 and some years ago, because it was essential that the penalty for our sins be paid.   You know, I am talking to you like you are a child, Tom and you, you…

            Tom:

            Yes, and I’ve got a response ready for you Dave, but you keep coming Dave, keep coming I am ready for you….

            Dave:

            It’s not mystery, no mystery in the Bible—it’s talking about something that has been hidden and that is being revealed.   Because God wants us to understand.   We could go back to Solomon, Proverbs:4:7Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding., you can quote that very well as well as I can.   Wisdom is the principle thing…”—these people need a little wisdom.     “Therefore, get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.   Not mystery, feeling, wow, that’s so mysterious, wow—no, get understanding.   And God says in Jeremiah9:23, 24: “Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches: But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the Lord which exercise loving-kindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the Lord.”

            Tom:

            Dave, as I said the problem—I’ll come back at you and thinking about the mentality out there and it’s—well don’t impose your religion on me, man.   Don’t give me some things that you got out of that book that you call the Bible and so on man.   How do you know that stuff is true, and so on?   And besides, I don’t like much of what it says—.   Now here’s my point—

            Dave:

            I can prove it.

            Tom:

            Yeah, but for somebody that—I know you can, but for somebody with an attitude like that, the emerging church movement is trying to slip it in under the door or come at it in a way that sort of soft soaps or massages that attitude around when I don’t think that’s the way it should be addressed.   It should be hit head on just as you said.   You’ve got the answers to my objections from the word of God.  

            Dave:

            Absolutely.   We need to give some of these answers to our young people.   The only problem is that they haven’t been taught the truth and they don’t know the truth.   They know what they are supposed to believe, but they don’t know why they should believe it and we are losing a whole generation and we are going to lose them even more so with this kind of an approach.   But the problem is, Tom, many of the leaders in this, they don’t know what they believe.   And they are part of this mentality.

            Tom:

            Right, yes, Dave, if I could describe it one way, we are seeing more and more shallow Christianity in which people will listen to anything, they’ll buy anything because they are not being taught the Word.