Is The Emerging Church Authentic Christianity?

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily .

Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon.   I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for joining us.  Coming up in this week’s program in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and “Why Did Festus Seek Help from King Agrippa?”  In Religion in the News, “Green Evangelicals.”   We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question:  “Are You a Heretic?”   We hope you can stay tuned.   Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk or DVD.  You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge.  We’ll let you know how to order later in the program.  Now, this week’s cover article.  Tom and Dave continue their series of programs addressing the spiritual movement known as “The Emerging Church.”  This week we focus on the question, “Is the Emerging Church a return to authentic Christianity?”  Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.

Tom:

Thanks, Gary .  You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him.  In this first segment of our program, we’re continuing our series on the Emerging Church Movement.  And, if you’re not aware of this new trend within evangelical Christianity, it’s only a matter of time.  It’s rapidly attracting increasing numbers of evangelical Christians between the ages of 18-30.  New emerging churches are emerging all over.   And many large churches throughout the country are adding emergent services to their already extensive programs.  The goal of this movement is to “re-invent or re-construct” Christianity so that it is more accommodating to our culture and the world, and particularly our youth culture which is heavily influenced by post-modern attitudes, beliefs, and practices.  The leaders of this movement claim to be rescuing Christianity that has developed its own traditional culture and restoring it to the authentic beginnings and vintage period of Christianity, whenever that was.  Of course, the claim is that they’re not changing the message, simply utilizing today’s media to better communicate the message.  However, a prominent leader of the movement, Brian McClaren, begs to differ with his compatriots.  He writes, “It has been fashionable among the innovative emergent pastors I know to say, ‘we’re not changing the message, we’re only changing the medium.’”  He goes on, “The claim is probably less than honest.  In the new Church we must realize how medium and message are intertwined. When we change the medium, the message that’s received is changed, however subtly, as well.  We might as well get beyond our naiveté or denial about this.”  Dave, McClaren is talking about the so-called “new church.”  I wonder about that.  But, anyway, it’s fashioned by contemporary media.  Does the Bible talk about the church in the latter days re-invented for a post-modern culture or for any other culture, for that matter?

            Dave:

I wouldn’t have any argument with them saying, “We need to get back to true Christianity,” because there is a lot of tradition out there.  And, not only tradition, but apostasy and false doctrine, exactly as the Bible said.  So, how would we do that?  Well, we go back to the Bible.  You want to know what authentic Christianity is, you read the Bible.  We have it in the Book of Acts, we have it in the gospels, we have it all through the Bible, because Paul says, it’s founded upon the apostles and prophets.  So, wait a minute, what are we going to do, sweep that foundation away?

            Tom:

Well, Dave, we have the so-called church fathers, who came after, the apostolic age, what about that?

            Dave:

The church fathers, I’m not thrilled with, and they are not the authority, the authority is the Bible.

            Tom:

Yeah, their words were not under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

            Dave:

Right, we’ve often said it, the fact that Ignatius of Antioch studied under Peter, or was it a disciple, or some connection.  Well then, let’s see what he had to say.  No, let’s see what Peter had to say, because Paul, in Acts 20, said, and I know it was with deep sorrow of heart, he’s speaking to the elders of Ephesus, he’s spent three years there.  He hand-picked them and he trained them, and then he has to say to them, “Of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.”  Well, if the disciples of Paul, the elders that he picked, if they could go astray, then why should I have any confidence in anybody else who knew Paul or Peter or studied under them?  No, I want to know what does the Bible say, what does the Holy Spirit say to the Word of God, not what some so-called church father had to say or do.  So, as you know, Tom, you were raised a Catholic, but we have many bright young Protestants, they say they were Protestants, even say they were evangelicals, and what have they done?  Well, they’ve gone back and read the church fathers, and they said, “Oh, they sound pretty much like Catholics to me.”

            Tom:

So, so much for Protestantism.

            Dave:

Yeah—“Why that didn’t come along until the 1500s.”  Really?  I’m not interested in Protestantism either!  We call this program, Search the Scriptures Daily.  What do the scriptures have to say?  So, I don’t care how old it is or how new it is, or what, and what these gentlemen are doing, unfortunately, they say it in so many words.  They say, “We are really abandoning the scriptures because we’re going to go by experience.”  See if I can find a quote here.  This is Leif Anderson, you would know more about him than I would, he was Doug Paget’s former pastor.

            Tom:

By the way, Dave, for our audience, these quotes are being cited in a book we offer called, Faith Undone , by Roger Oakland, absolutely terrific book, so we really recommend it.

            Dave:

This man, Leif Anderson, happens to be the current president of the National Association of the Evangelicals, and listen to what he says:  “The old paradigm taught that if you had the right teaching, or doctrine, you will experience God.  The new paradigm says that if you experience God you will have the right teaching.  This may be disturbing for many who assume propositional truth must always precede and dictate religious experience.  That mind set is the product of systematic theology and has much to contribute.”  No, I would say that mindset is the product of the Bible.  Never mind some systematic theology someone has dreamed up.  “However, biblical theology looks to the Bible for a pattern of experience followed by proposition.  The experience of the Exodus from Egypt preceded the recording of Exodus in the Bible.”  Now isn’t that profound!  Can you imagine the experience of the Exodus from Egypt preceded the recording of Exodus in the Bible?  “The experience of the crucifixion, the resurrection and the Pentecost, all pre-date the propositional declaration of those events in the New Testament.”  Well, the doctrine that comes from having the prophecies that foretold them are in the Bible before these events ever occurred.  But of course if you’re going to talk about something, it must have happened.  This is a big revelation, is it?  Look, Tom, the problem is—

            Tom:

You know, just a side note here.  This is the new president of the National Association of Evangelicals that you just quoted?

            Dave:

Yes, I’m afraid so.

            Tom:

Well, what’s with this organization?  First of all, the one previous to him, Ted Haggard, now without getting into his homosexual liaison in which he was disgraced and had to step down, but prior to that he had major problems theologically.  This guy was a part of the C. Peter Wagner spiritual warfare, just theology or doctrine that is so far removed from scripture it’s unbelievable.  And now we have this guy.  Where is the evangelical church today?  Unbelievable!

            Dave:

This was the headquarters really.  Wagner, who says that God called him to head up the spiritual warfare movement.

            Tom:

C. Peter Wagner.

            Dave:

Right.  He attended; he was one of the parishioners there.

            Tom:

At Haggard’s church in Colorado Springs ?

            Dave:

Right.  And C. Peter Wagner said very much what we just read about this man saying.  He said well, “this is the way we do it.   You must understand experience precedes theology, we don’t go by what the Bible says, we go by our experience, and then we try to fit that into the Bible.”

            Tom:

Dave, it’s amazing.  This “ Emerging Church movement” as you know well, grew out of those with a conservative evangelical background.  Some of them were raised Plymouth Brethren.   Brian McClaren for example, all of them had some evangelical background.  Now these are no different than, you remember, decades ago the evangelicals, the conservative ones, you know, had this issue with the Charismatics, and so on, now you can’t tell the difference.

            Dave:

Tom, we’ve got to get back to the Bible.  But then the problem arises—and I don’t want to get into that, we want to move on with what you have here for us in the Emerging Church .  But then the problem becomes well, what Bible?  Oh, you know, I really like The Message , Eugene Peterson—oh, that is really contemporary—          

            Tom:

Dave, I hope people don’t take you seriously.

            Dave:

Don’t worry—I don’t like The Message , it is horrible!  But this is what people would say.

            Tom:

Yeah.  Well, see, everything has to be new, Dave.  Let’s go back to the quote of Brian McClaren.  He says, “In the new church we must realize how medium and message are intertwined.”  Now, we’re on radio here, we have pretty good technology, we want to communicate, so this is a medium that we think we can use to proclaim the gospel.  But the issue is, is the medium going to affect the message?  It can and it has, and we see it happening in the Emerging Church .  But first of all, a new church—in the new church—what’s this new church?  

            Dave:

Well, Tom, I don’t know.  We had a new church back there.  Jesus said, “On this rock I will build my church.”  It began at the—

            Tom:

And He wasn’t talking about Peter.

            Dave:

No—it began at the day of Pentecost, and the Spirit of God was poured out.  That was the beginning of the church, as I understand it.  And the Lord is the head of the church; it’s founded upon the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself the chief cornerstone, Ephesians 2.  Now, what’s this new church?  I wonder when Jesus founded that one, when He decided that we are going to junk the old one, the one I founded back then, Jesus says,—now we’re just going to scrap that because we’ve got new medium now, we’ve got radio and TV, and furthermore—

            Tom:

Movies, sacred art.

            Dave:

Right and we’ve got young people now and they are postmodern, and they just don’t go for this old stuff.  What I say to them is: you tell that to God!  The Bible was not written for a brief period of time, this is God’s Word.  Now are we suggesting that God didn’t foresee this modern generation, therefore He was not able to put something in, or express His Word in a way that would convict them?  No.  Human beings have not changed; we are still sinners, saved by grace some of us.  We still need God’s mercy and his forgiveness.  We still have the same hope; we hope we have the same hope.  I don’t know what the hope of these people is.  To be in heaven with Jesus, to please Jesus, to be filled with the Spirit of God, to be transformed, to become useable vessels in his hands.  Now, that doesn’t change.   Furthermore, the world has not changed out there, it’s the same world, the hearts of men are the same as they ever were.  Now they may put on a different front, they may have different toys or different ideas or modes and so forth, but everything is the same, it hasn’t changed.  And what we need is God, we need His Word, we need Jesus Christ.  So, Tom, I don’t know what these men are talking about.  

            Tom:

Well, there’s definitely a lot of talk out there, Dave, a lot of things have been written.  You know, as I said, this is not something that’s just popped up overnight, and it’s a fad that I believe is going to go away.  We’ve been looking at this trend developing over the last four or five years, but now it’s moving like a flood throughout the country.  Right here in Bend , we have within the last year and a half we have six emerging churches.  We’re a small community; we have six emerging churches and six other programs, emerging programs that are part of larger churches here in town.  That’s twelve of these things right here in Bend .  We were just in Hong Kong , it’s over there, it’s everywhere.  So, this is no small item, this is no kind of drop in the bucket, this thing has ramifications across, not just denominations, but movements.  As I said, charismatics are into it, the non-charismatics are in to it, the Calvinists are in to it, Calvin College is one of the leaders in the communication department, in all of this.  It’s everywhere, Calvary Chapels, for example, some are involved in this.  So we are not trying to pick out one particular group, it’s all over and we want to bring this to the attention of our audience, of our listeners.

            Dave:

Let me give another quote from Roger’s book, Faith Undone , which I certainly recommend.  He’s quoting Donald Miller, author of the popular Blue Like Jazz —

            Tom:

I’ve read it.

            Dave:

Listen to what he says:  “For me, the beginning of sharing my faith with people began by throwing out Christianity”—whoops—“and embracing Christian spirituality, a non political mysterious system that can be experienced but not explained.”  Now Tom, we’ve heard that.  That’s a popular saying today, “I’m not religious, I’m spiritual.”  What do they mean by that?  Well, I’m kind of a space cadet, you know, I get spiritual—

            Tom:

Well Dave, they don’t mean that, what they mean is, whatever comes along, whatever seems to feel right, and you know, raise these kinds of spiritual thoughts and feelings within my mind.

            Dave:

What they mean is, I’m spiritual, I don’t want any rules, I don’t want this to be defined.  The New Agers say it; it’s exactly what these people say.  So, he says:  “It can be experienced but not explained.”  Now let’s just take that to its logical conclusion.  Paul writes to Timothy, “preach the Word.”  He doesn’t say, Get some videos up there, get some movies or let’s get a skit or try to show how to experience this—“preach the Word!”  What’s the Word?   It’s the Word of God, the Creator of the universe, the Redeemer of our souls.  “Preach the Word, be instant in season, out of season”—well, I would remind you of something else, what are these guys going to—it could take another 5 years to discuss, homosexuality—?

            Tom:

Don’t try and pin anything down, Dave.

            Dave:

Well, we’ll discuss that, we’ll dialog about it, and if we don’t come to a conclusion, then we will take another 5 years.  “Be instant in season, out of season…” because we go by the Word of God.  Now, this is really something—“reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering, we’re going to be patient, and doctrine.  For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine!”

            Tom:

Doctrine is just teaching, everything Jesus said in his word it’s his teaching, right?

            Dave:

That’s right, and we’re in that day, Tom.

            Tom:

Well, I’ll give you another verse.  Remember Jesus said, “If you continue feeling good about my Word, you’re my disciples indeed.”  NO, no, he didn’t say that, he said, “If you continue in my Word you are my disciples indeed, and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.”  You can’t massage that around, although there are many attempts out there that are trying to do it.

            Dave:

Well, of course, Tom, the Christian psychologists say all truth is God’s truth.

            Tom:
They are not the only ones, Dave.

            Dave:

By that they mean, well, Freud must have had some of it, I guess Buddha had some.  No, what they’re talking about are facts of science.  And in fact, the Passantinos writing in the CRI Journal, they use an illustration:  ten times ten is one hundred.  That’s part of God’s truth they say.  Well, carrying on for what you were just saying they say, “That’s part of the truth, this is part of God’s truth, all truth is God’s truth.”  But Jesus said, finishing the quotation of your verse, or maybe you finished it, "You will know the truth and the truth will set you free."  Now I don’t think ten times ten or not, I mean, I have a degree in math, but I really revere mathematics.  This is the queen of the sciences they taught us at UCLA, but no, that’s not going to set anybody free.  Nor will, I solemnly swear to tell the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.  That’s not going to set anybody free.  In fact—well, it could, but it might put some people behind bars.  We’re talking about something very special, and what is it?  We’ve gone over this before, but probably it wouldn’t hurt to remind people; John:14:17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you., Jesus said:  “I’m not going to leave you comfortless, I’m going to send a comforter to you, even the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth  him.”  Well, that’s nice, but when you go to John 16, Jesus says, "When he, the Spirit of Truth is come, he will lead you into all truth."  And Jesus said to Pilate, “Those who of the truth, everyone who is of the truth hears my voice.”  All right, you’ve got the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive, who leads into all truth, and only those who hear the voice of the Lord, who know his Word, are indwelt by the Holy Spirit will know this truth.  Then that is not what these men are talking about, this new church that they want to form.

            Tom:

Well Dave, very simply, and we are going to explain this as we continue the series, they are undermining the Word of God, they are weaning evangelicals off the Word of God.  And it’s the Word, another verse, John:17:17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth., Jesus praying to the Father for us says:  “Sanctify them,—(that is, set them apart, set us apart)—Sanctify them by thy truth, thy Word is truth.”

            Dave:

Amen.

            Tom:

Now if we can’t understand his Word, Dave, if it’s all a magical, mystical experiential kind of thing, very subjective, whatever you feel about it, whatever I feel about it, we’re dead in the water, we’re just flopping and just kind of floating on top of the water.  Dave the Lord willing, next week, we’ve said quite a bit about the Emerging Church , we’ve got a lot more to talk about, but there are some objections to what we have said thus far.  So, I would like to go over some of those objections, and as we get into more of what the leading Emerging Church leaders are saying, what many of the churches are doing, and again, I have to qualify that, there are some churches that not into all of what we’ve been talking about.  But they’re getting their toes in the water, all right, they are moving in that direction, and we’re concerned about it and we want to raise the issues so that they can, the scripture says, “The just shall live by faith,” so that they can go about what they are doing by the faith once and for all delivered to the saints.