This is a link to our weekly radio program #4907a Search the Scriptures Daily.
Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, we’re glad you could be here. Coming up in this today’s broadcast in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and “Paul concludes his testimony before King Agrippa.” In Religion in the News, “All Religion Must be Destroyed.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Are all Religions Wrong?” We hope you can stay tuned. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk or DVD. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s cover article. Tom and Dave continue their series of programs addressing the spiritual movement known as “The Emerging Church.” This week we focus on the question, “What’s Wrong with Candles, Incense, and Icons?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.
Tom:
Thanks, Gary . You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living a life in a way that is pleasing to Him. Our topic for this first segment of our program is: “The Emerging Church Movement.” If you’re not familiar with this very problematic movement within evangelical Christianity, this is a good opportunity for you to become informed about it. It’s a relatively new phenomenon among evangelical churches that’s attracting mostly young adults. Its stated objective is to reach our youth culture, which is characterized by postmodern attitudes, beliefs, and practices. It’s claimed that these young people desire a spirituality that is more relevant to our society and one that creates a more authentic, in their words, a more authentic spiritual environment for their worship. Now Dave, as you know, we’ve been receiving some objections to what we’ve written about and spoken about evaluating the Emerging Church movement, and a common objection is that what we’ve been describing is extreme within the movement and doesn’t apply to the objecting individuals own Emerging Church. On a national level Emerging Church leaders say that because the spectrum of their beliefs is so diverse it’s impossible to make sweeping judgments. Well, it a part of the shoe fits, if some of these things that we are talking about apply, I don’t know why they would object. The have to search it out, don’t you think, Dave?
Dave:
Well, Tom, I thought that Christianity comes from the Bible. That’s where we learned about Jesus, from the Bible. It records the history, His birth, life, miracles, death and He is the one who said, “On this rock I will build my church.” Now, my understanding as I read Ephesians 2, for example, the church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. That’s in the Bible, they’re teaching the Bible, and Jesus is the chief cornerstone. Now, Tom, you’re the expert on this, you’ve done—I’ve hardly done any reading on this subject, although I’ve gone through, like Roger’s book, but I haven’t gone into the depth that you have.
Tom:
That’s Roger Oakland’s book, Faith Undone .
Dave:
Which we highly recommend, I mean, it really points out some things that people need to know. So, if Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone, it is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, did they include in there some way that it might become relevant to our postmodern generation, or that it might reach young people, or is this something that young people and the postmodern generation need to adjust themselves to? And is there really—I’m asking several questions, Tom—is there really anything in the Bible that would describe these methodologies like candles, icons, and so forth, so that we would know how to follow that, so that we could, well, have the church that Jesus Christ established and wanted to continue, I think, right on until the Rapture?
Tom:
Dave, those that are objecting say, well, we’re not into this, we’re not into that, as I mentioned earlier, but the question they need to ask themselves, based on what you have said, is this biblical? Is it in the not only the teaching of the apostle Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, did he do it? Was this a practice that was common to him? Now, for example, some don’t see any problems with, or potential problems, based on what you said earlier with putting candles or images, icons, and so on, in their church to kind of dress it up. Now, here’s a quote from a pastor right here in the Northwest, and I would say he’s probably the most conservative within the Emerging Church Movement. His name is Mark Driscoll, but this is what he says, “Everything in the service needs to preach, architecture, lighting, songs, prayers, fellowship, the smell, it all preaches. All five senses must be engaged to experience God.
Dave:
Well, Tom, I would have to object to that. The Bible does not say anything about that, in fact these would be distractions, and these would be things that you are looking to help the message. Now, all I know, Jesus said, “Go into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Paul writes to Timothy, “Preach the Word.” Now, what word is this? Well, that’s 2 Timothy 4. Chapter 3:15 , 16, 17, “All scripture, (that’s the Word), is given by inspiration of God. It’s profitable, or it’s useful for doctrine.” Now I don’t think a candle preaches doctrine. I don’t think the smells and whatever else they have, the architecture, preaches doctrine. “Doctrine, reproof,” I don’t think any of these things; I don’t think a candle is going to reprove you, or an icon, or the architecture or the atmosphere. “Doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness, to what end that the man, the woman, the boy, the girl, of God may be perfect.” That doesn’t mean without sin, it means mature. “Complete, thoroughly furnished unto every good work.” Now, that tells me, I mean this is the Bible; this is the Holy Spirit telling us, if I want to be thoroughly furnished unto every good work, I want to live for Christ. I want to be Christ-like in my life, I want to be fruitful for Him in what I say and what I do, I need to go to the Word of God. And if I am a man of God who is trying to encourage people in this, then I have to do what Paul said to Timothy in the next chapter, preach the Word. “Be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.” All right, now I don’t read anything in there about, yes, but you really have to dress this up. That’s what the man said, didn’t he?
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
He said you’ve got to have—
Tom:
Everything in the service needs to preach, architecture, lighting, songs, prayers, fellowship, the smell, it all preaches—all 5 senses must be engaged to experience God. Dave, these things are fleshly oriented, and I thought the scripture said—I know the scripture says, “The flesh profits nothing.”
Dave:
Now Tom, I don’t find anything like that. This man is not teaching from the Bible. He is using his own ideas, and he says well I think—
Tom:
Yes, in this quote, he may do some other things that are wonderful.
Dave:
Yeah, right, but as far as this quote is concerned, there is not one ounce of Bible, there’s not one ounce of Holy Spirit, and there’s not one ounce of the gospel, but it’s all about some methodologies which he says we must have. I don’t find them in the Bible. Now, if these are essential, why aren’t they in the Bible? And if they are not in the Bible, then they must not be essential, and if they are not essential, and the Bible didn’t give it to us, then you are going astray.
Tom:
Right, and Dave, I think it’s more than not being essential, as you’re alluding to, they’re problematic. For example, the major part in the Emerging Church movement is its affinity for mysticism and mystical and contemplative practices. This is what they all seem to be drawn to, and all of these things have really spiritually dangerous ramifications. Now foundational to this is the Emerging Church ’s movement toward things Roman Catholic. I want to get into this because the affinity there is as a former Roman Catholic for 30 years of my life, I can see it, I can see the handprints all over this movement.
Dave:
Tom, I can see it from what you just read.
Tom:
Well, you see, in Catholicism the main aspect, the sacraments, the liturgies, the sacramental of the rituals, that’s what Roman Catholicism is all about.
Dave:
Let me interrupt, Tom.
Tom:
Sure.
Dave:
Roman Catholicism is not about truth, it’s not about preach the Word, it’s about all kinds of other things that hold people to this church, but it is not leading them to God, it’s not leading them to Christ, and it’s not leading them to heaven.
Tom:
Now Dave, I know there’s some people that—whoa, wait a minute, what are you talking about? So, I think what we have to do here, let’s just take a time out from this mysticism and so on. Let’s talk about the gospel according to Rome versus the gospel that the Bible teaches. Unless people understand that’s the major error, that’s the problem, then they can say, well so the Catholics have candles, and they have rituals and so on and so forth, but the bottom line is the gospel. Dave, what’s the gospel according to Rome ?
Dave:
Well, Tom, it’s laid out, it’s not from some local priest, don’t go to a local priest— Well, I have a friend and he’s a Catholic priest, he’s a nice guy, I’ll ask him. No, because you’ve got all kinds of priests, there are all kinds of ideas, you’ve got theologians at Notre Dame, and various other seminaries, and they all have different ideas. Now, I want to know what is being taught in the catechism, I want to know what a child learns as they grow up. Then first and foremost is you’ve got to be baptized. You cannot get to heaven unless you are baptized, is that right, Tom?
Tom:
That’s correct.
Dave:
That’s what you were taught.
Tom:
That’s correct.
Dave:
You’ve got to take the sacraments, you’ve got to go to Mass, and there are certain Days of Obligation. I think they’ve changed some of those, loosened it up a little bit, did they?
Tom:
Well, no, for example, Europe , they still recognize ten, in this country they recognize six. Why the difference is because if you missed the Holy Day of Obligation, in other words you are obligated to go to Mass on this day, it would not be a Sunday, and if you don’t for a reason, you just say, No, I’m not going today, I’m going to do this or that or whatever, that’s a mortal sin. If you die with a mortal sin on your soul you go, not to purgatory, you go directly to hell, that’s what the church teaches. So, Holy Days of Obligation, this is part of the laws of the church.
Dave:
So now Tom, I’m a Catholic, let’s say. I don’t even know the Holy Days of Obligation, I mean, I was kind of half asleep when they taught me that.
Tom:
Well, Dave, if you didn’t have Diocesan Calendar, you don’t know what days are going to be Holy Days of Obligation for that particular year.
Dave:
So, somehow I slipped up, and I failed to go to Mass, I don’t even know that I failed to go to Mass on that day.
Tom:
It might not be a serious sin if you just kind of let it go, but you have to be determined that you’re not going to do something so that it is a severe sin, a mortal sin.
Dave:
Well then I’m going to try to be as ignorant as I can. I don’t want to be held accountable for that.
Tom:
I put that into practice for some of my 30 years as a Catholic, but go ahead.
Dave:
Well, Tom, then I’ve got to go to Confession; I’ve got to confess this. Wow! How many of these obligations are there? What do we have? Seven hundred and some?
Tom:
No, in the Code of Canon Law, there are 1752 rules and regulations, many of them, not all of them, but many of them are directly related to where are you going to spend eternity?
Dave:
This is a lot of rules, Tom, and this is not the gospel of Jesus Christ—“For by grace are you saved, through faith, not of yourselves, it’s the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.” And as you know, Catholicism is a works religion.
Tom:
Exactly.
Dave:
Now I’m trusting then in my works. I’m trusting the church. I’m trusting in the directions that the church gives for what I must do. I recall that there was a Philippian jailer once upon a time back there at Acts 16. He was a little frightened for his life because the prisoners were going to flee, there had been an earthquake and loosened all their bonds, and nobody was tied up, nobody was bound, nobody was in the stocks—
Tom:
Now this wasn’t a story, this isn’t just a parable. This is history.
Dave:
Right, right, and the doors of the prison swung wide open and you know, you lose a prisoner that’s it. You are killed, the Romans wouldn’t allow that. You remember even when Peter—an angel came and took Peter and the next morning the rabbis send their emissaries to go and get Peter. The doors are locked, the guards are there, and there’s no Peter! They kill them. You don’t dare,—so this Philippian jailer he’s frightened. No excuses allowed.
Tom:
Couldn’t say well it was an act of God.
Dave:
Yeah, right, they’ve got too many gods.
Tom:
Although it was an act of God.
Dave:
Yes, it was. Well Paul says, “Don’t be worried, we’re all here, don’t be afraid.” And he falls down and he’s going to kill himself, fall on his sword, but now he falls down on his knees and he cries out, “Sirs. What must I do to be saved?” Well Paul says, I mean, first of all you’ve got to be baptized, and then you’ve got to go Mass, and don’t miss any Holy Days of Obligation, and be sure you go to Confession, and you’ve got to really believe that this is the literal body and blood of Jesus, and you’ve got to ingest Jesus into your stomach. We’ve got some problems here, or Tom, I’m thinking of the Catholics, you remember, they had a 30-year dialogue with the Lutherans. Let’s bring the Lutherans in. Martin Luther, Reformation--they had a 30 year dialogue, and they finally said they now agreed on justification by faith. So Paul when the Philippian jailer says, “What must I do to be saved?” Paul says, “Do you have about 30 years, it’s a very complicated subject?” No he said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” Now, of course, I think the Philippian jailer knew who this Jesus Christ was. They had been singing hymns, they probably had been preaching the gospel to the others, but this is it, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” Jesus himself said, and everyone else listening probably knows this, “for God so loved the world that he formed the Catholic church, or some other church in order to make sure the people could—no, “he gave His only begotten Son,” he died for our sins, “that whoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” Now I think that’s pretty clear.
Tom:
Yeah, but Dave, somebody out there is saying, Well wait a minute, we Catholics believe on Jesus, we believe Jesus, of course, what’s the difference?
Dave:
But the problem is you believe a lot of other things and you can’t get—I’m talking about, we Catholics, — you Catholics, now you can’t get to Jesus, for one thing, except through Mary. The Bible says there is one mediator between God and men, the man/Christ Jesus. But Catholicism teaches, most Catholics would believe, oh, that’s true, yeah, one mediator between God and man, that’s Jesus. But there’s on mediator to get you to Jesus and that’s Mary! And without Mary you can’t get to Jesus. So, it’s not that they don’t believer certain core truths of the gospel. I would say, yes, amen, they do, but they believe so much else that it undermines the truth that they have.
Tom:
That’s what Paul talked about in Galatians. They’ve added so much that it’s another gospel; it’s a gospel that cannot save. And that’s the point we’re trying to make here, Dave, is that the affinities that the Emerging Church has for the liturgies, the rituals, and so on of Catholicism, they’re not even thinking that Rome has a false gospel, it has another gospel, that Paul said, “Let them be anathema, let them be cursed if they believe a false gospel.” Now Dave, why would Paul say that, why would he be so concerned? I mean, couldn’t he loosen up a little bit.
Dave:
Yeah, because this happens to be a very narrow way. Jesus said, “I am THE way, THE truth, THE life; no man comes to the Father but by me.” He even said— and we’ve gone over these verses many times—Matthew 7:22 , “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord”—(now, these are not atheists, these are not skeptics or critics, these are people who professed faith in Christ, they call him Lord)—Lord, Lord, but notice what they say. They don’t say, Lord, Lord, you made a promise, you said if we would believe on you, then your sacrifice for our sins upon the cross would be credited to our account, and we would be forgiven, and it would be as though we had died in you. As Paul said, I’m crucified with Christ. So, Jesus, you made a promise, you said that you are the way, the truth, and the life, you said if we would believe on you—No, they don’t say that. They say, “Have we not prophesied in your name, in your name we have cast out devils, in your name we have done wonderful works. And I will say,” Jesus says, “I never knew you!” Now, we think about that rationally, biblically, they are trusting to the wrong thing for their salvation. But you could say, yeah, but I heard some of these guys preach the gospel, they surely believed in Jesus, they were on TV, and they were on radio. But what is it that they are trusting in when they stand before Jesus? It’s their works; it’s what they think were miracles they did and prophesying in his name. And Jesus said, I never knew you, you were never trusting in me alone, your faith was too complicated. You couldn’t possibly have been trusting in Me alone because you’ve been trusting in all these other things. Now that’s a problem, as I understand it Tom, from what you have been quoting for us about the Emerging Church . Oh they may, some of them, I’ve read some of them, and they claim to have been fundamentalists or evangelicals at the beginning at least, but then they said, well we need a Christianity; we need a gospel that really fits our day, that will appeal to the people of our day. And so now we need: we need icons, we need this atmosphere, we need some incense, whatever it is. We need these accouterments; we need this embellishment because that will create the atmosphere. We need this atmosphere, we need the smells, we need everything. Then, Tom, from my understanding of the Bible, they are no longer trusting in the simple gospel. If they were trusting in the simple gospel they would preach it.
Tom:
Dave, for 30 years I had what they’re trying to get into. I had the bells, the smells, the liturgies, the rituals, the Mass, the images, and so on, and it didn’t draw me to God. In Europe we had Mark Driscoll talking about architecture, some of the most beautiful churches in the world. They’re empty shells now. Some of these churches now are trying to go emergent, they’re covering up this architecture, this Gothic architecture, and so on. It’s stunning to me! But the point, I want to come back to just the gospel, because we’ve just got about 3 minutes left here. Dave, so it’s by faith alone, and it has to be by faith alone because anything else that we would add, that’s us, we’re sinners.
Dave:
Yeah, Tom, you get this from the very beginning. I’m thinking of the Book of Exodus now, I think it’s around chapter 20, I never remember exactly where these things are, and God says through Moses, When you build an altar for worship, you had better worship me, you will make it out of dirt, just pile up some dirt. Now, if the ground is so rocky you can’t pile up enough dirt, then you will make it out of stones. You will not form those stones, you will not cut those stones, and you will not go up to my altar by steps. Now, you read in the Old Testament of the high places, because they all went up—like the pyramids, well, like the ziggurat, the Tower of Babel . This was the ultimate works religion. We will climb by steps of our own making and effort into the very presence of God. So it’s very specific because—well, look, if I offer a lamb, I mean, isn’t that okay? No, because you are mixing your efforts. God will not allow that. What’s this beautiful architecture about, Tom? I’ve lived in Europe , and I’ve seen them all, the stained glass windows, and so forth. Cut stones, you know Saint Peter’s right there in Rome ; you go up by steps to the altar. It is absolutely contrary to the Word of God and God will not accept it, because no effort of man must enter into this. Or we are no longer trusting in God alone.
Tom:
Dave, it has to go back to the penalty, the penalty that Jesus paid for us. Anybody who thinks they’re helping with the payment of that penalty, which is what it’s all about. Jesus either paid the full penalty or He did not.
Dave:
Absolutely!
Tom:
If He did not we’re dead in our trespasses and sins.
Dave:
Well, He said, “It is finished!” The Greek word, Tetelasti, paid in full. I’m going to trust Jesus, I’m not going to try to mix anything else in there because that would mean I don’t fully trust Him, and that will not take you to heaven.
