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Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael; it’s great to have you tuned in. Coming up today’s broadcast in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will resume their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and “How Did Paul Survive a Snake Bite?” In Religion in the News, “Sunday School for Atheists.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “What Are Indulgences?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk or DVD. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s Cover Article. Tom and Dave continue their new series of programs addressing the spiritual movement known as “The Emerging Church.” This week we focus on the question, “How can we achieve union with God?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.
Tom:
Thanks, Gary . You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. In this first segment of our program, today we’ll be addressing some of the mystical practices that are being promoted within evangelical Christianity and that are attracting many of our young people. So, what are mystical practices? Well, if you’ve not followed our programs for awhile, they’re attempts to enrich one’s spirituality through various techniques and methods. And, mysticism is described as the ways and means to gaining contact or communion with the “ultimate reality” or God. And its goal is union with God, which in the classical sense means merging into God. Now, Dave, we should discuss that a bit. We now hear some people who are attracted to this mysticism and they say, we’ll you know, I’m just into things that will draw me closer to God. Union with God to me is just communicating with Him and drawing closer. But, we’ve also heard people who are into yoga and reincarnation say well, you know, I’m not really into that kind of stuff, I’m into like reincarnation, they would say, you know probably in a prior life I was a famous person or something like that. It’s almost like they’re homogenizing these classics concepts into a way that fits into their ideas, their thoughts, their culture, really.
Dave:
Well Tom, there are no things that will put us in contact with God, that’s magic, that’s occultism, God does not respond to that. You said the young people say well, I’m just into things that will get me closer to God. What things did God say in His Word would get you closer to God? Idols or some ritual? No, we get to know Him through His Word, by His Spirit. See, this is presuming that apparently God has some difficulty in getting in communion with us, and we’re going to help Him out. No, He communes with us through His Word, God is a Spirit, they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth, and there’s no truth in a candle, or an icon, or anything physical. Tom, it’s a—I don’t want to go on too long, but I think we need to understand something.
Tom:
Yeah, Dave, this is important, because, as I said, people who think that union with God has just a limited meaning, really are missing what these people who have developed this thing, you know, the ancients, they are talking about pantheism or panentheism , getting into God or becoming God himself.
Dave:
Actually, Tom, it is a step or many steps away from God. I’m dealing with atheist sort of materials, there’s nothing but the physical universe. Now we also have Christians who are materialists, and I call this Christian materialism because mysticism is really tied in with material things. So, I say, if I can say I quickly, it began with Eve. She thought that a material thing, piece of fruit, would give her knowledge, would make her like God, never mind drawing closer to Him. Well, she would become like God. Not that she would become God, but she would become like God. And this is pretty much what these people are aiming for, and you have it all through Roman Catholicism. This little wafer? Well, can it be a symbol; can it point me back to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross? Oh, no, no, no, it has to be His body. So now they are into materialism again. Now we can disprove that very quickly. When Jesus said, John:7:37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink., “If any man thirst let him come unto me and drink.” What kind of water is He going to offer them? Not physical water, “and out of His innermost being will flow rivers of living water.” Is that physical water? I haven’t seen a Christian yet with water gushing out of their innards! When He said to the woman at the well, and we’ve been over this many times, but these are the classic cases that Jesus used. When He said to the woman at the well: “You drink of this water you will thirst again; you drink of the water that I will give you, you will never thirst again.” Was that physical water? No. So, this is mysticism, and the Emerging Church and all of their accouterments are taking us back to the physical water. Not the water that Jesus gives, which is not physical, and why would this water that Jesus gives, why is that going to come through some physical means? It is not, this is the Holy Spirit indwelling us. This spake He—to jump back to John 7 again,—“This spake He of the Spirit which they that believed on Him should receive.” So they are actually taking us away from God, they are taking us away from spiritual life, they are taking us away from truth, they are taking us into techniques and things. Paul says you’re going back to the weak and beggarly elements. Paul says the tabernacle, and then of course the temple, this was a sign of what’s in the heavenlies. Well, for example, the brazen serpent, that’s a picture of Christ becoming sin for us. “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness even so must the Son of man be lifted up.” Well, so the children of Israel , then they carried this serpent with them, and they began to worship this serpent. Well, wouldn’t you think that that would do the job better than just remembering this? No, it does not.
Tom:
The Lord had them, in the time of Hezekiah, destroy this thing.
Dave:
Right. So, God said to Moses: See to it that you make it according to the pattern that was given you on the mount. Now who gave this pattern, who gave these icons, and who gave these labyrinths, and where did this come from, and who that this is the means of getting in touch with God, and union with God? Not the Bible! Not the Holy Spirit! No, so we are being taken away from God and away from His truth, and away from the Holy Spirit, and away from true worship!
Tom:
Dave, last week, as you remember, we mentioned prayer labyrinths. We talked about prayer labyrinths, and we just started to talk about the Stations of the Cross. But I want to go back over prayer labyrinths because of its incredible popularity today. I’ve got some quotes here, but first of all for those who are not too familiar with the prayer labyrinths, it’s a circular or concentric pattern of paths, and it’s for meditation purposes. What you do is you begin at the outside of this pattern and you take a path and you walk to the center of it. It’s not like a maze where you end up in a—you don’t know how to get out of there; these paths lead right to the center and then out again. Their origins go back to pagan religions; they were created around the thirteenth century by the Catholic Church. They were to enable Catholics to meditate upon Christ’s Passion Walk, or what’s called the Via Dolarosa, the Walk of Sorrows, which He carried his cross from the praetorian to Calvary ’s hill. But the idea for Catholics, and why these things were created, was that during the time the Muslims had control of the Holy City of Jerusalem and Israel , and it was too dangerous to go on a pilgrimage. The reason they would go on a pilgrimage was to gain an indulgence, plenary indulgence. Now we are going to talk about indulgences—
Dave:
You mean the Muslims hadn’t yet heard that Islam was peace?
Tom:
I guess not, Dave! I guess not. So, to protect the Catholics and to keep the door open for indulgences, these were developed.
Dave:
Of course it saved a lot of effort, because the Crusaders, they had to go to a lot of trouble to somehow gain control of Jerusalem and kill all the Jews in Jerusalem .
Tom:
Wow, that’s a whole other story, Dave, which we have dealt with.
Dave:
Amazing!
Tom:
But Tony Jones, we’ve been looking at his book, The Sacred Way , Spiritual Practices for Everyday Life . Tony Jones is one of the leaders of the Emerging Church movement. This is what he writes: By the way, his book is called, The Sacred Way , Spiritual Practices for Everyday Life , so you know what this is about. I’m quoting: An almost forgotten ancient and medieval spiritual tool is now arguably one of the most popular experiential devices in Christian spirituality.” Now, you can take issue with some of these things but he’s right, this is becoming so popular that it’s just stunning. From the National Cathedral in Washington they feature centering prayer—we talked about that a couple programs ago. Labyrinth prayer, these are on Tuesdays of each month, so they lay out these giant tarps, I think they are about 40 or 50 feet across, and then people can come and get involved at the National Cathedral in contemplative experiences.
Dave:
Now Tom, God says, Come now, let us reason together. You often quote Proverbs:4:7Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.: “Wisdom is the principal thing: therefore get wisdom; and with all thy getting get understanding.” Now I’m going to try to understand now. You want me to get into this labyrinth? Now, why? What is this going to do for me?
Tom:
Well, Dave, the idea, and you know, we’ve seen this over and over again; they’ve taken Biblical meditation and turned it into something completely different. The whole idea is that you are to quiet yourself, begin to commune with God in your mind, hear from God. And you know, I’ve read many, well, not many, but a number of journals by people who are really into this, and you find that this is a form of communication. The labyrinth becomes a divination device to put you in touch with God. And then what you do is you look within and you try and understand, understand to a degree, what God is saying to you. This is displacing the Bible, by the way, Dave, even if people think that they’re meditating upon some verses here and there. That’s not contemplative meditation at all.
Dave:
David says he communed with the Lord in the night on his bed, and he talks about that. I wonder why he hadn’t thought of a labyrinth.
Tom:
Well, I think the bed was probably more comfortable for him, Dave. That’s an interesting point, what’s the difference between David—you know and I know that you in your prayer life you hang out with the Lord, speaking to the Lord and Him speaking to your heart. What’s the difference?
Dave:
Well, I don’t find it necessary to walk this labyrinth.
Tom:
So you don’t need a special device?
Dave:
No, in fact I would find that distracting. You’ve got to keep within the path and on the other hand, if I thought that this really was beneficial, then I’m becoming bound to this thing. I want to get in touch with God—well, I’ve got to get back in that labyrinth again, and if that doesn’t make sense why get in it at all? Because, Tom, it’s an abandonment of the Word of God. The entrance of thy Word giveth light. Thy Word is a lamp unto my feet. You know, people can go back and meditate on Psalm 119; it’s just full of the Word…thy statutes, wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? Well, he’s got to go on a labyrinth and get in touch with God. No…by taking thereto according to thy Word. Now do I have to walk a labyrinth to heed God’s Word? I don’t think so!
Tom:
And see, Dave, these are promoted as special devices, spiritual tools that will help you do that. Now if you go to the Grace Cathedral in San Francisco, for example, a woman pastor there went to Chartres Cathedral in France, and she was really one of the individuals who was instrumental in popularizing this, here in the United States. Now, if you went to Grace Cathedral everybody uses it. New Agers are into it, for walking this path and looking deeper within and finding their true selves, supposedly. But again, these are spiritual tools. Is there a spiritual tool, Dave? I mean, based on what you said earlier, I don’t think so!
Dave:
Well, I can’t think of a spiritual tool in the Bible. You see, we have a problem there, Tom. As soon as we have some tool, some device—this is a two-way deal, now God is going to have to honor this tool.
Tom:
So this is divination.
Dave:
It is. He’s going to have to—this becomes a channel to God. Well, He’s got to meet me in this channel, and why should He? He doesn’t need that, He doesn’t want it. This is life eternal that they might know thee, John:17:3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent., the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. But it would be very helpful if you walked a labyrinth, or if you looked at an icon, because that would be really the way to get to know God.
Tom:
Or you took a verse and repeated it 12,000 times to put yourself into a state in which you could commune with God. Dave, I’m going to make mention of this. I got a call the other day from a lady who, when I said on the air that this is stupid, she really objected to that. But, you know, if I offended her I apologize, but my point is that a form of communication that involves repeating something 12,000 times, or 100 times, it’s crazy!
Dave:
It is. Communicating with whom?
Tom:
Yeah.
Dave:
With God?
Tom:
If you tried to have a conversation with me, Dave, and you repeated something 50 times, let alone 12,000, you know, I’d get on the phone and call the guys in the white coats to come after you. It’s sad and we’re trying not to make fun of this, but Dave, it really is ludicrous.
Dave:
Tom, it’s closely related really, they are all related together, all the errors and heresies, closely related to Christian psychology, because why do you get into Christian psychology? The Bible just says, Come unto me, I will give you rest. The Bible says, Rejoice in the Lord. The Bible says that Christ is all we need, and His Word. Yeah, I tried that, but it doesn’t work. Oh, so it doesn’t work, whose fault is that?
Tom:
Either God’s a liar or maybe the problem lies elsewhere.
Dave:
Right. But now you’ve got a technique that is going to make it work only it’s going to take you away from the Bible, because you cannot find this in the Bible, and never is there some means of getting in touch with or worshipping God. That’s idolatry, that’s where all these things came from.
Tom:
Dave, many of these things, no, not many, I would say all of these things really grieve me as I see them coming into the evangelical church because this was a part of the Catholicism that I grew up in. And very similar to the prayer labyrinth, which was not really a device that we used as Catholics, although its roots are in Catholicism, but the Stations of the Cross are very similar. Fourteen stations of the cross, well what are they, for people who don’t know? Well, these are supposedly, events that happened to Jesus from the being condemned by Pilate to being crucified and then laid in the tomb. So, the Catholic Church identifies 14 of them, and again, like the prayer labyrinth, Stations of the Cross were devices that a Catholic could go through rather than going on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and walking the Via Dolarosa. So, in the seventeenth century Pope Innocent the 12 th , he gave the Franciscan Order charged to make these stations, or what they are, they are visual representations of these events that Christ participated in. You could pick up, again, a plenary indulgence for doing this in your church, and at the time, seventeenth century they are mainly in San Franciscan churches.
Dave:
That plenary means complete forgiveness of all sins up to that point!
Tom:
Yeah, and we’re going to talk about that because our Q&A we have a question about that. But Dave, these things now are in the basements of some evangelical, and hopefully not many, but some evangelical churches, particularly the youth area. They were really motivated to do this by, guess what? Mel Gibson’s “The Passion of the Christ,” which for, I mean I’ve been saying this over and over, people are probably tired of hearing it, but that movie was about the Stations of the Cross. Mel is a Tridentine, or very conservative Catholic. He believes the Mass needs to be said in Latin in order for it to really be effective. Okay, but the movie was about the passion of the Christ, but it was more than that, it was about Mary. As a Catholic altar boy I used to serve during the ritual of the Stations of the Cross, and we would sing, Stabat Mater. So, the movie, Mel called it his Marion movie, and the movie was about Mary participating in the passion of Christ. This is where we had the idea, more than an idea; we believed that Mary was Co-redemptrix, even though it was an official teaching of the church we all believed it. And the Stations of the Cross, Stabat Mater, reinforced that idea that she suffered with Christ to expiate the sins of the world.
Dave:
Okay Tom, so we have good motive, we want to get back in closer communion with Christ, with God. Now, let us go to the Bible to see if we have some instruction. What should we do? Well, Jesus, the night in which He was betrayed He took bread, Paul tells us, 1 Corinthians:11:13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?. Interestingly, Paul was not even there that night, and he’s telling us what happened at the Last Supper. As I received of the Lord, he says. Okay, so this is a revelation from God to him. What did Christ says? Well, take this bread, this is my body. Well, of course no one would think that that was literally His body, He sitting there in his body, and with his hands he’s handing it to them. Obviously, if that had become His body right then, what have we got? Which is His body? Is it the bread or the body that He’s about to sacrifice on the cross? Hadn’t even sacrificed on the cross yet, and yet this bread has already become his sacrifice, because the Catholics say that’s when this began—transubstantiation. No, but the point I’m trying to make is, what does He say? This do in remembrance of Me. This! Walk a labyrinth? No! Look at some icon? No, this is what He wants us to do. And this reminds us, you want something to remind you of the suffering of Christ? Well then let’s take the bread and the cup in remembrance of Him! Now there’s some churches do it once a year, others once a quarter, or I don’t know, once a month. I’m not trying to lay a trip on anybody, but it says: This do! Okay. I’ve been in churches where the pastor preached his regular sermon and then the deacons or elders, or whatever; they are in a rush to let everybody partake of this. Now they’ve gone into mysticism also. They’ve gone into materialism. It is not in the eating of this, and the Catholic Church said, oh, it must be the real body. No, This do. What? In remembrance. It is to lead you to remember. Now it never says walk a labyrinth, it never says anything else.
Tom:
For 14 Stations of the Cross, one in which you have a woman coming out, Veronica, supposedly blotting the face of Christ, and then that’s an image that they use later on. This is dead wrong, Dave.
Dave:
I’m going to stick with the Bible, and Paul said to Timothy: Preach the Word, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine—the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, and I think we are right there today, Tom!
