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Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael; it’s great to have you join us. Coming up today’s broadcast in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and “Why did the Centurion isolate Paul?” In Religion in the News: “The Plight of Christians in India .” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Do you hate your enemies?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk or DVD. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s Cover Article. Tom and Dave continue their new series of programs addressing the spiritual movement known as “The Emerging Church.” This week we focus on the question, “Can you like Jesus but not His church?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.
Tom:
Thanks, Gary . You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. Our topic in this first segment of our program is and has been for a number of weeks, the Emerging Church movement. And, if you’re not familiar with this relatively new phenomenon that’s making itself felt throughout Christendom, this is a good opportunity for you to become informed about it. The stated objective of this movement is to reach our youth culture, which is characterized by post-modern attitudes, beliefs, and practices, and its claim that these young people desire a spirituality that is more relevant to our society and one that creates a more authentic spiritual environment for their worship. Some of the leaders say that many young people in our culture like Jesus but they don’t like His church. So, they are about the task of what they call “reinventing” or “reimagining” Christianity.
Now, in that “reinventing” process the Emerging Church movement has, in our view, introduced some very spiritually destructive teachings. For the last few weeks we’ve discussed, Dave and I have discussed the movement’s promotion of techniques gleaned from Catholic and Orthodox mystical practices. Yet, Dave, as bad as that is, I’m more concerned about how the Emerging Churches deal with the Scriptures, which is what we’re going to discuss today. Now, I’ll give you an example. This is from Doug Pagitt, he’s an editor on An Emerging Manifesto of Hope , a book that features the views of numerous Emerging Church leaders, and he says this: “His sermons are not primarily about extracting truths from the Bible to apply to people’s lives. In many ways, the sermon is less a lecture or motivational speech than it is an act of poetry, putting words around people’s experiences to allow them to find deeper connection in their lives. So our sermons are not lessons that precisely define belief so much as they are stories that welcome our hopes and ideas and participation.”
Dave:
Well, Tom, They are going to reinvent Christianity, it sounds like they already have, and they’re not getting it from the Bible, or if they say they are they’re changing everything. I don’t know where you would find that in the Bible. So, we’re not going to give you doctrine. Well, Paul said to Timothy—we quoted this many times—2 Timothy 4. Preach the Word, reprove, rebuke, with all long suffering and doctrine. And in the Chapter before he says: The scripture is given for doctrine, reproof, correction, and so forth. Now, how are you going to come up with some new ideas if you’re going to the Bible? It would be rather odd that you would, if this is a real interpretation now, that you would uncover, somehow, an interpretation in the Bible that the saints of God, the Christians and the martyrs and the preachers, and so forth, didn’t know was there for the last nineteen hundred years? Now you’ve got something new? No, what they are trying to do is find something, as they say, that will wrap around our experience. So, the Bible has to be made compatible with our experience. Now that doesn’t sound like you can get much correction from that kind of a Bible.
Tom:
Right. Well Dave, not only that, but it changes so many things, the format for example and the environment of many emerging churches, they have no pulpit, no pews or chairs, or chairs lined up like pews. The pastor is really now not a preacher or a teacher but he’s a moderator, and he’ll usually stand or sit in the center. There may be couches, as opposed, you know, to hard, wooden pews, actually, I think very few churches have that anymore. But he’ll be right in the center so he can interact with his congregation, and really, what it’s more about is conversation. They come and they share experiences, the people surrounding him, and again, instruction from the Bible really has no part in this methodology.
Dave:
Tom, I can’t fault them for not having normal benches or chairs or whatever, and I can’t fault the pastor for being in the middle and being in an exchange of ideas with people because Jesus did that, they wanted to ask Jesus a question. Where does this conversation come from, and who is guiding it, and to what end? What is the foundation? What is the basis for deciding what is right and what is wrong? Right and wrong in Christianity, it’s either Biblical or not Biblical. And it seems to me that they have pretty well thrown that out. They wouldn’t say they’ve thrown it out; they’re looking for some new way of applying it to new situations. Tom, it’s not Biblical, and it’s going to lead people astray.
Tom:
Now Dave, the idea, as you said, quoting from 2 Timothy, about teaching and preaching, preach the Word and teach the Word, and so on, that’s the part that it’s not just softened, but it’s going by the boards. I’ll give you an example, this is from Rob Bell, and he’s a noted name within the Emerging Church movement, and his book is very popular, it’s called, Velvet Elvis , and here’s a quote from Rob Bell. He says, “And while I’m at it, let’s make a group decision.” Now, I want to come back to that, okay. “Let’s make a group decision to drop once and for all the Bible as Owner’s Manual metaphor.” “It’s terrible, it really is, when was the last time you read the Owner’s Manual for your toaster?” Do you find it remotely inspiring or meaningful?”
Dave:
Tom, I get angry, I’m sorry, I shouldn’t say that. Now we are comparing the Bible to a manual for a toaster, and it has no more importance than a toaster, and when would you read a manual? Oh, well, there’s no point, I wouldn’t read a manual for a toaster because I’m so familiar with a toaster and it’s a very simple way of heating up bread and toasting it. But the Bible is about life! The Bible is about salvation! The Bible is about eternity! And when you’re going to make a comparison like that, something has gone drastically wrong, either in the man’s brain, or in his comprehension of Jesus Christ and God and His Word.
Tom:
Well, Dave, it’s really simple, the Word of God, the Scriptures, this is God’s revelation to man. No man can come up with it on his own, right?
Dave:
Right.
Tom:
So, in His revelation He is teaching us things about Himself and about ourselves that we couldn’t figure out on our own. So, from that standpoint, it’s so critical that it is—you know, we’ve called it, and said over and over again here, it is The Manufacturer’s Handbook!
Dave:
Right.
Tom:
And it has detail, again, that we can’t discover on our own.
Dave:
Do you believe: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and God said, Let us make man in our image?” Then, I think we need to look to Him for guidance. He knoweth our frame, the scripture says, He knows that we are but dust. He gave us the Bible, He gave us His Word, so that we would understand, so that we would know what kind of creatures we are, and the relationship we are supposed to have with God, and where His Word fits into this. Tom, I don’t know how you could come up with something else, except—and it’s like, you know, when we talk about psychology, and we say, Well, that’s not in the Bible, and we need to get back to the Bible, and what do they say? Well, I tried it and it doesn’t work—so it’s God’s fault, he has given wrong instructions, and now we need to go to Freud or Jung or Rogers or Maslow, you know. One of these godless, anti-Christians, this is what they are to a man, and we’re going to go to them for some comprehension of who we are and what our behavior ought to be, and if it’s wrong, how to change it. And we’re going to ignore the Bible—well; we may kind of tip our hats to it now and then. But it is not the foundation for our lives! And that is what it is supposed to be! And obviously, if it’s what you just said it is, this is God’s Word to man, God ought revelation to man, then that ought to be the foundation for our lives, and where would you go? I’ve said it a hundred times probably, Tom, one of Christ’s names, Isaiah:9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. and 7, His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor . Jesus Christ, one of his names is Counselor ! Now wouldn’t I go to Him for counsel, instead of just somebody that has a little sign out, “Christian Counselor” or whatever, probably not even a Christian counselor, who is not following the Word of God? Where did he get this from? But he got it from—well, let me quote. People probably get tired of hearing me quote. James Dobson, remember, in Focus on the Family Magazine , he said: “Christian psychology is a worthwhile career for any young person to aspire to, provided their faith is strong enough to withstand the humanism to which they will be exposed!” Bruce Narrimore goes on to say it was the humanist’s, Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers, who taught us about self-love and self-esteem, and so forth. So, the question is, why do we go to the humanists, anti-Christians, for counsel, and they don’t even get it from the Word of God, some Christian counselors may kind of massage it a bit with that? Why don’t we go to Jesus the Counselor , Wonderful Counselor , the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and so forth?
Tom:
But Dave, you know what they say, the responses: All truth is God’s truth. God certainly hasn’t left the pagan without His truth or, in this particular context, many of the emerging churches will invite people with other religious experiences, whether they are Buddhists or Hindus and so on, to come and share, because all truth is God’s truth, right, Dave?
Dave:
Well, all truth is God’s truth; it depends on what you mean by truth. If you mean, a hundred times a hundred is ten thousand, or if you mean, the attraction between two bodies is directly proportional to their masses, and inversely proportioned with the square of the distance between their centers, that’s true—
Tom:
But acts, it’s factual.
Dave:
Yeah, but Tom, as you know, science keeps changing. It’s not always true, because when you want to get into quantum mechanics it doesn’t work that way anymore, I mean, it’s changed. So—but that’s not talking about what Jesus is talking about when he said in John:8:31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;, 32, “If you continue in my Word, then are you my disciples indeed, and you will know THE truth, and THE truth will set you free.” And when these Jews, who have says believed in Him, but they didn’t really believe in him, not who he really is, and how he presents himself, they are ready to stone him. And Jesus, I think it’s Verse 44, 45, chapter 8, He says: “Because I tell you the truth you believe me not.” Now, try to fit that in—because I tell you that one hundred times one hundred is ten thousand, you don’t believe me, or because I tell you that two plus two is four, you don’t believe me, or because I tell you that, you know, there are natural laws out there, there’s the Law of Gravity. I mean, whether they knew that and called it that in Jesus’ day or not, but you jump up and you don’t just keep going sometimes. No, you always come back. You fall out of a building, or whatever, you’re going to hurt yourself. Now, that’s part of God’s truth? No, that’s one of the laws that God established for the natural world. But obviously, it is not the truth that Jesus is talking about when he says it will set you free! And when Pilate says, Art thou a king? And Jesus says, to this end was I born into this world, to bear witness to the truth , everyone who is of THE truth heareth my voice. And Pilate says, what is truth? They’re not talking about mathematical formulas, they’re not talking about some simple fact that, as you said, Tom, of nature, they are talking about something very profound. And when you look out in—it’s been a long time since I looked in there, but many years ago I looked in the 3-Volume Philosophy Encyclopedia , I think, or something like that, I looked under truth. There were 3 lines how to talk about it, but no real suggestions. Truth — that is very profound! THE truth , I came to witness to THE truth , not some truth, all truth is God’s truth, but I came to witness to THE truth . In John 14, Jesus says, I’m not going to leave you alone, I won’t leave you orphans, I will send the Comforter—“Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him.” And you get to John 16, Verse 13, Jesus says: When he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will lead you into some of God’s truth, but there’s all kinds of other guys out there who understand God’s truth. No! He will lead you into ALL truth . Now, if the Spirit of truth, who is the Spirit of God, whom the world cannot receive, leads into ALL truth , then don’t tell me that Freud or Jung, or Rogers, or Maslow, these guys, or whoever “The Emerging Church” whoever their heroes are, whoever they are looking to, this is not THE truth that is THE Word of God, thy Word is truth ! So, Tom, they’re taking the church, they’re taking young people away from what they actually need. They are taking them away from a sound understanding of God’s Word. And they are leading them off on all kinds of paths, people’s experiences and how do you feel about this, you know. It’s like the modern math now in school— Well, Johnny, two plus two is four, but how do you feel about that! We want you to feel good about this.
Tom:
And Dave, let me continue and finish off Rob Bell’s quote here. After saying that we shouldn’t look upon the Bible as an owner’s manual metaphor— He says: “We have to embrace the Bible as the wild, uncensored, passionate account; it is people experiencing the living God.” Well, what does that mean?
Dave:
Well, Tom, I would be hard pressed to write an essay on that, and explain it.
Tom:
But it’s a reflection of what you just said—“let’s just experience this, let’s get into our feelings, let’s see how God is moved” and so on. These are things, hardly commandments, hardly teachings, details, how we are to live our lives. Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments, He didn’t say, Oh, go out and just experience the wild things, just how things come to you, and so on. We have instructions in the Bible, don’t we?
Dave:
Absolutely, and we are not to stray away from these, for obvious reasons, Tom.
Tom:
Well, Dave, tell us, how should—you’re talking to some young believers out there— how should they approach the Bible? What should the Christian view of the Bible be, as opposed to what some of the quotes we just read?
Dave:
Well Tom, the approach that I always take is, the Bible is God’s Word, and we can prove it by prophecy. God says, Isaiah 46, verse 9, 10, somewhere around there: I will prove to you that I am God, and that this is my Word, by telling you what’s going to happen before it happens. And we’ve often reminded people, that is a unique statement. The Bible is unique! The Qur’an doesn’t say that, the Hindu Vedas don’t say it, Bhagavad-Gita, nothing! This is the only book in the world in history that has prophecy after prophecy after prophecy, absolutely 100% true! They have all come to pass if they were supposed to by this time, or are in the process of coming to pass. Now, when you know that this is God’s Word, and he’s written it for instruction. He’s written it for correction. He’s written for reproof, and for our enlightenment, for our understanding. And you’ve quoted often Tom: “Wisdom is the principle thing, Proverbs:4:7Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding., therefore get wisdom, and with all thy getting get understanding.” Now God wants to impart wisdom to us. He wants to impart understanding , and that’s what this Book is all about! Let me see if somebody, maybe there is a Buddhist who had a mystical experience that kind of enlighten us, and we could discuss that!
Tom:
Well, Dave, not only that, but we’ve talked for the last couple of weeks, these “ Emerging Church ” leaders are turning to mystics, Catholic mystics. And all you have to do is look at the biographies of some of these mystics, they were strange people. That would be Julian of Norwich, you could go down the line, even Francis of Assisi, who many evangelicals hold in high esteem, try and find the gospel among their writings, it’s tough. But Dave, that’s our view of the Bible, and they would say look, the problem with you evangelicals, you take things too literally, you’re missing out on the experiential part. We don’t deny that there’s experientialism within Biblical Christianity. How can I have a personal, intimate relationship with Jesus Christ if there weren’t some emotions involved, right? But that’s the by-product, that’s not what I am directed to. That’s not what I live my life by, by my experiences, it’s by what His Word says. And then, Dave, the other aspect of the Word of God is, it says, it teaches us that once we come to know Jesus Christ, we believe the gospel, how He paid the full penalty for our sins according to the Scriptures.
Dave:
Right.
Tom:
Now, once that happens, the Holy Spirit comes and it becomes resident within us, correct?
Dave:
That’s what Paul says, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creation.
Tom:
So, He is the Counselor, He is the enabler. I can live now, this Book, these rules, and it is a rule book, not by my power, but by His Spirit.
Dave:
Absolutely. So why would I want to go somewhere else? Because these people don’t like doctrine, they despise it, they have turned their backs on God’s Word, it’s boring, or it doesn’t seem to work. And they want some experience, some feeling, and the candles or the icons, or whatever, that will arouse this—Tom, that is the absolute opposite of what the Bible teaches.
Tom:
Dave, next week the Lord willing, we’re going to talk about another aspect of how they view the Bible. Now we’ve mentioned a number of things today, but the rub, it is a rub, is what they call, “contextual theology,” in other words, it has to do with interpretation. Yes, we have the Word of God, but it’s really important as to how one goes about interpreting this. And as we will see next week, the interpretation really has to do with the culture. W can’t read the New Testament and just take the words and their meanings; we have to understand the context in which this is received, and how they wrestled with it then. Then what we have to do, and I’ll go over this next week, is that we have to apply that to our current culture, because it’s really what they call, “an ancient future approach” and we’ll explain that next week.
Dave:
Tom, this is scholasticism, this is scholarship, this is academia, and it really makes it impossible for me as an ordinary person to really understand the Bible, because first of all I’ve got to know what the culture was when this was written, when it was spoken, and so forth. So, I’ve got to become an expert on history, and that is not the way you understand the Bible.
