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Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael—we’re glad you could tune in. Coming up today’s broadcast in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will begin an in-depth study of the Gospel of Matthew, and “Is Mary the Mother of God?” In Religion in the News, “Heaven from the Other Side.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “How Does God Guide Our Lives?” We hope you can stay tuned. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials including: books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk or DVD. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s Cover Article. Tom and Dave continue their series of programs addressing the spiritual movement known as “The Emerging Church.” This week we focus on the question, “Should Christians Dig up the Church Fathers?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.
Tom:
Thanks, Gary . You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. In this first segment of our program we’re continuing our series on the Emerging Church movement, and last week we addressed something that is foundational to that movement. It’s called “Ancient Future Faith,” a term credited to Robert Webber who died last year and for about three decades was a professor at Wheaton College . Now Webber writes in his book, Ancient Future Faith: Rethinking Evangelicalism for a Post-Modern World , I’m quoting, “Currently, Western society is in a transition from the modern world to a post-modern world. Shifting us toward the affirmation of new values, these shifts are resulting in a whole new culture and raise new questions about the way a Biblical Christianity is to be understood and communicated.” Dave, I’ve got another quote by him, but what do you think of that?
Dave:
Well, Tom,
Tom:
Affirmation of new values?
Dave:
Re-thinking evangelical Christianity. Okay and how are we going to re-think it? Are we going to go back to the Bible and say, Hey, guys, we missed it, this is what the Bible really says, this is what Paul preached, this is what the early church stood for, this is what happened in the Book of Acts, and so forth. “Oh, No, No, we’re going to look at culture, changing culture. You’ve got all kinds of cultures in this world out there already going from one culture to another. Furthermore, cultures have been changed and we’re not living in ancient Greece now, we’re not living in ancient Rome .” The Bible was written to all people at all times, and to say, “Oh, my gracious, we’re in a postmodern age, I guess we’re going to have to re-think the whole thing.” Well, I hope you get back to the Bible. That’s your problem in the first place!
Tom:
Well, as you will see, you don’t go back—in some cases they do, but generally speaking the thrust here is not to go back quite that far. Here is another quote: “The solution for Christianity to be viable (according to them) in this cultural transition— Here’s what Weber contends: “We need to recover the universally accepted framework of faith that originated with the apostles, was developed by the church fathers, and has been handed down by the church in its liturgical and theological traditions.”
Dave:
Yeah, well, we have big problems with that, Tom. “We need to recover the—what does he say at the beginning that was….?
Tom:
“Recover the universally accepted framework of faith.” How did that ever happen?
Dave:
I don’t know about framework, I never heard of a framework in the Bible. There’s one faith, one Lord, one baptism, Ephesians 4, but it doesn’t say there’s one framework, or we have a changing framework, or we’ve going to have to keep up with changing times. Now why am I so dogmatic about this, Tom? Because it’s the Bible that tells us about Jesus, tells us about God. The Bible is God’s Word , God’s inerrant, sufficient Word. Now, I can’t change that, this is the foundation of the faith, and we’ve quoted it so many times, Tom, but I’ll do it again. All scriptures is given by inspiration of God. Okay? This is the Scripture, inspired of God—it is profitable, or to be used for doctrine—well things have changed, you know, times have changed and we’ve got this postmodern, and maybe we ought to—can we massage that doctrine around just a little?
Tom:
Make it a little more acceptable?
Dave:
—profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness, and then it goes on and it says that the man and that would include the women or boy, or girl, child, that the man of God may be perfect. That doesn’t mean without sin, without flaws, that means mature, complete, one God. God said to Abraham, Walk thou before me with a perfect heart. What does that mean? Well, it means that Abraham wanted God’s will; he is willing to obey God, that’s what it means. Okay? But it goes on and it says: “…thoroughly furnished unto every good work.” Well, until you get to a postmodern age, I mean, the Bible didn’t foresee that, and the Holy Spirit, you know, wasn’t really up to dealing with that back then. No I mean, Tom, it’s an insult to God, to the Holy Spirit, it is bordering on blasphemy, because it says—Well, God couldn’t possibly have foreseen all of this. Or I guess we have to have a new way of interpreting—you can’t get a new way of interpreting the Bible, the Bible is very clear. You can’t just make it say what you want it to say! So, that’s how denominations and all kinds of errors came in. And you know, Tom, I’ve talked to so many people, I’ve heard their whining, and their complaints. What am I? 81, I can’t believe it. Well not quite all of my 81 years, but at least 70 of them—“Well, you just can’t understand the Bible”—that’s what the Emerging Church is saying, or, “Well you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say.” Really? Well, I tell people, look, if that’s true the Bible would be the most amazing book ever written, because we do have grammatical construction, we do have words that have meaning, you argue this in court. We have courts of law, so you can’t say you can get anything out of it you want, but they don’t like what it says, and they are trying to find a new way of looking at this.
Tom:
Dave, as you know, if maybe some of our audience or listeners, viewers that haven’t followed the past programs, we have been—as we’re speaking about the Emerging Church, we’ve been using, particularly for the last couple of week, the latest issue, that is February 2008, of Christianity Today cover says, “Lost Secrets of the Ancient Church: How Evangelicals Started Looking Backward To Move Forward.”
Dave:
Now Tom, let me just interrupt, I’m sorry.
Tom:
Sure.
Dave:
They had secrets back then—whoa!
Tom:
Well, these are gems that need to be, I mean, what’s on the cover? You have a shovel, you have dirt and you have a figure unearthing a cross, but it’s not just a wooden cross, it’s a very stylized cross with, you know, like a gem.
Dave:
Yeah, so if these were secrets were they in the Bible? How do we know that there were secrets back then, they had been lost? You’re not going to dig in the ground to find them, what would you dig up?
Tom:
I’ll tell you what you dig up.
Dave:
Yeah, the church fathers, right.
Tom:
The church fathers, that’s where we’re going on this.
Dave:
Right, and Tom, I’ve always said, I’m really not interested in the church fathers.
Tom:
Well, Dave, let me give you some information, maybe I can change your mind here.
Dave:
Alright.
Tom:
Well, first of all the question is, from this article, is there really an interest in the church fathers, or just a few guys, scholars and so forth, interested in this? Well, here’s a quote: Baylor University professor D. H. Williams, author of Evangelicals and Tradition , testified at the conference—now the conference that they are talking about, this is at Wheaton College . They had a conference dealing with these issues in which they were going to dig up some of these liturgies, ideas, teachings, how the early church went about, not only their worship, but evangelizing and so on. Well anyway, he goes on to say: “Who would have thought, a decade ago, that one of the most vibrant and serious fields of Christian study at the beginning of the 21 st century would be the ancient church fathers? There has been an opening of new avenues created by the almost overnight popularity of bishops and monks, martyrs and apologists, philosophers and historians who first fashioned a Christian culture 1,500 years ago.”
Dave:
Fifteen hundred years ago, that’s when they first fashioned it, but Jesus—
Tom:
But again, this is very popular according to this professor.
Dave:
I understand. Tom, it comes and goes just like this. I’m going to be as brief as I can. I don’t think I’ve mentioned Academicus , William Law, maybe I have, but a brilliant Christian, way back then. His most famous book was, A Serious Call to a Devout and Holy Life . That will knock you out of your chair, changed the lives of John and Charles Wesley, and shook the world in his day, 1729. He says, Academicus, you know, they told Academicus, you don’t understand Christianity, you’ve got to get back—I mean, you’ve got to read the church fathers, and you’ve got to understand how it was back then. I won’t go on and on into that, but he says, I lit my candle early and I blew it out late, and he says, I found myself wandering through a wilderness of contradictions and it wearied me. And he says, Finally, you know what, I forget the old ruminus or whatever, some old guy that’s not scholarly, he just goes by the Bible, and he got a hold of me and he said, You know, why don’t you get back, really get back to the early Christianity, back to the guys who just followed the Bible? And so Academicus says, you know, I decided I’m just going to get back there before all of these books were written by the church fathers and so forth, and I’m just going to study the Bible.
Tom:
Dave, this is such common sense.
Dave:
Right.
Tom:
You said, either last week or the week before, I don’t remember, these guys, going back to this ancient faith, they didn’t go back far enough, they’ve missed it by a hundred years. Dave, they like to hunker down in the 2 nd century, what about the 1 st century. Well, first of all, people say well, wait a minute, these church fathers, they knew some of the apostles, there was a close relationship between them. What does that guarantee? That doesn’t guarantee anything, does it? You’ve mentioned before, and I know most of our listeners probably know this, hey, the New Testament, the Word of God, the Bible, this is inspired of the Holy Spirit. Which one of these individuals, church fathers, were inspired, Dave?
Dave:
Well, Tom, I’ve said it a number of times, and I’ll say it again. Paul, in Acts 20, he calls the elders of Ephesus and he says: “I know after my departing grievous wolves will enter in not sparing the flock, of your own selves will men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.” Okay. Now, if some of Paul’s hand-trained, I would say his favorites at Ephesus , he doesn’t have a great deal to correct in the epistles of the Ephesians. If he said they were going to go astray too after his departing—well, I’m not I impressed, and I’ve said it so often, by Ignatius of Antioch, who knew Peter or studied under James, or whatever—no, Paul’s hand-picked and trained for 3 years at Ephesus the elders, and he said some of you are going to go astray! Well now, think if we could just get back and we could read a book written by one of the elders at Ephesus , who was really trained by Paul, wow! Well, how would we know whether he had gone astray or not? Well, very simple, go back to what Paul taught, read the epistles, read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, it’s the only way, Tom.
Tom:
You know, again Dave, this really simple stuff, in terms of logic here. Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, you quoted it, 2 Timothy:3:16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:: “All scripture is given by inspiration of God….” Well, what about 2 Peter 1: 21, 22: “No prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” So, Paul is inspired of the Holy Spirit, now which of these so-called church fathers can say as Paul said: “Those things which ye have both learned and received and heard and seen in me do and the God of peace shall be with you….”—that’s Philippians 4:9. Which of these individuals that are being promoted here can say that?
Dave:
Well, Paul was writing Scripture, and Tom, let’s just go back to Jeremiah—as quickly as I can here. I can quote it but I want to be absolutely certain—Jeremiah 14. In Chapter 13, Jeremiah, no, he didn’t inspire the Holy Spirit, this is Scripture that he is writing. Verse 10: “This evil people which refuse to hear my words (this is the Word of God) which walk in the imagination of their heart….”—of course, we’ve got all that imagine Jesus, visualize, I mean, this is where we are today, Tom.
Tom:
Mysticism.
Dave:
Right. “…which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods? Okay. Now, go to chapter 14, verse 14: “Then the Lord said unto me the prophets prophesy lies in my name.” Remember, Matthew 7, we go back to these Scriptures again and again, Jesus said: “…many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophecy in your name, in your name we cast out devils…”and so forth. “I will say I never knew you!” So, the Lord is saying to Jeremiah: the prophets prophesy lies in my name. Now notice, there are three things here, “I sent them not.” Have these guys been sent by the Lord to bring us back to this re-emerging church? I don’t think so. “Neither have I commanded them.” Any command in Scripture that we’ve got to do this? “Neither spake I unto them—they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination and a thing of not and the deceit of their hearts.” The heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. Paul said I don’t have any confidence in the flesh!
Tom:
I’d like to give our audience, because they probably think, well, who are these church fathers and what are they about? Well, first of all, these are men, primarily the 2 nd century, 3 rd century, and 4th century AD.
Dave:
Okay.
Tom:
There names like Origen, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Cyprian, Justin Martyr, Athanasius, John Chrysostom, Cyril of Jerusalem, Augustine, and others. These were men that had some things right and some things wrong. Okay? But all you have to do is read about them. Not that I am recommending that, but you will see their flaws and certainly their heresies. Now let me just take you down through some of these: Irenaeus believed that the bread and wine became the body and blood of Jesus, as did John Chrysostom and Cyril of Jerusalem; Athanasius taught salvation through baptism. Actually, most of the others did as well. Tertullian became a supporter of the Montanist heresies, and a promoter of a New Testament priesthood, similar to the Old Testament Jewish priesthood, as did his disciple Cyprian; Augustine was the principal architect of Catholic dogma that included his support of purgatory, baptismal regeneration, and infant baptism, mortal and venial sins, prayers to the dead, penance for sins, absolution from a priest, the sinlessness of Mary, the Apocrypha as Scripture, and so forth. And again, it’s not that these men got everything wrong, some of them certainly went against the Catholic Church in terms of Catholic dogmas and so on, but overall, this is like a heretical mind field, so why would we seek them out?
Dave:
Yeah. Tom, in preparation for some debates that I just had, I had to listen to many debates, listened to debates by Christians that are really brilliant, and they are debating atheists, or debating Muslims, or whatever, and the thing that I notice that they all fall into; they’re just quoting the experts. Well, this expert said, you know, and he thinks that this was who really wrote this book. I remember one debate I had with Bob Funk, Robert Funk, Ph.D. the head of The Jesus Seminar, they had the secular radio. And he’s carrying on, you know, and I didn’t ask for this debate. He was going to just destroy me, I guess. So, the first thing I said to him was, Bob, you’ve got a problem, you were born 1900 years too late! We have eyewitness testimony. Who are you—sit there with your colored beads, you know, and vote on whether Peter said this, or whether this really happened, and he got so angry. He just slammed the phone down.
Tom:
That was the end of the radio program?
Dave:
Well, it shouldn’t have been. I said, Well, wait a minute, I didn’t slam my phone down, could I just say a few more words? Oh, no, no they’re not going to let me talk. They wanted him to wipe me out, and it didn’t happen. So, Tom, what are we going to do? You remember my debate with Karl Keating?
Tom:
Catholic apologist and they are of the Roman Catholic Church.
Dave:
Right. He got very angry with me in the middle of the debate. Because, I think the debate was about: “What is the Ancient Church Like?” Is it a Catholic church, or so forth, and he thought I would go to the church fathers and I would talk about history and so forth? I went to the Bible! Where better to find out what the ancient church was like, and should have been like, in the Bible. Well, he got really angry about that. Tom, I find that in books between atheists and creationists, creationists and evolutionists, they are arguing with scientific—I can argue with scientific arguments, but the Christians don’t go to the Bible! In fact, a lot of them, Tom, are evolutionist Christians, and that has been a bitter disappointment to me.
Tom:
Well, Dave, in this realm, you said it earlier, if I go to the Bible and I take it for what it is, what it claims to be, the Word of God, thus saith the Lord, then I’m accountable, I have to respond to it. But if I go to the church fathers and you say, well, Origen said this, and I said, Well, Augustine said this, and so who is my favorite? You know, who is going to give me enough information so that I can do what I want to do? I can certainly be more ecumenical, say well, let’s disagree to disagree and we can move on from there.
Dave:
Tom, that’s a very good point. I don’t want to judge hearts, but why do they want to go to the church fathers? Because they don’t like what the Bible says, they don’t want to be stuck with the Bible because it is very convicting and very confining. The same thing with the atheists. I would say to an atheist, your problem is not a scientific problem, it’s a moral problem. You hate God and you do not want to be in submission to Him. And I’m afraid, Tom, there are many Christians leaders, scholars in the world of academia, they don’t want to be tied down to the Bible doctrine, you know. Let’s get scholarly, let’s look into history, and so forth, and the church fathers, and I think that’s what happening.
