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Welcome to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, we’re glad you could tune in. This week we continue our revisit to our very first radio series that was broadcast back in the fall of 1999. We hope you enjoy this re-presentation and we’ll have a special offer for you later in the program. Our ministry offers many resources to help you in your Bible study, including a free monthly newsletter. Later in the program, we’ll provide ordering information, so please stay tuned. Now, this week’s cover article. In our inaugural program last week we launched a three-part series on The Seduction of Christianity . This controversial book by Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon was a call to discernment in these days of spiritual deception and false teaching. We now present part two of this discussion. Along with Dave Hunt, here’s Tom McMahon.
Tom:
Thanks Gary . In this, our second radio program of Search the Scriptures, we are re-visiting a book Dave and I co-authored fifteen years ago titled: The Seduction of Christianity , Spiritual Discernment in the Last Days . Now Dave, one of the things that surprises me today is that the book continues to be controversial. You know, as a young writer then, it was really a privilege to help you with it. I’m sure I thought that the book would turn things around—silly me, huh? Things are actually worse than ever but that’s what the scriptures indicate, isn’t it?
Dave:
Uh, huh, afraid so, last days, dangerous times will come and they will be lovers of themselves and we talk a lot about self-love. But Jesus himself in Luke:18:8I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? said:—when the Son of man returns, will he find the faith upon the earth? It didn’t sound like things were going to be very encouraging. It doesn’t sound like we are going to have a great last days revival like we hear a lot about and I would be certainly thrilled if that were the case. But Paul said, don’t let anybody (just to put it into our modern language) sweet talk you on this idea of the last days great revival. That day, that is, the day of the Lord, will not come except there come the falling away, the apostasy first. So, yes, unfortunately it has gotten considerably worse and I don’t know how bad the apostasy has to get.
Tom:
Well, I agree. As I said, as a young writer back then, really a young believer, I really didn’t understand the scriptures and I thought, you know, again, this was as bad as it’s going to get. I guess because I was so involved in researching so much of this information that I couldn’t see it, but it has. But it shouldn’t be surprising. Let me quote you from Acts:20:29-31 [29] For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
[30] Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
[31] Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
, this is the apostle Paul: “For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. And of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. Now, that’s stunning! From this perspective, Paul didn’t have to deal with Christian media, with unchecked doctrines, heresies coming at you every which way all the time, yet look at his heart here. That by the space of three years he ceased not to warn everyone night and day with tears.
Dave:
Sounds like a fanatic.
Tom:
More fanatical than you, Dave.
Dave:
Right. But obviously, he wasn’t and I often quote that and say, you know, I haven’t even begun to be concerned compared with Paul. Now, one of the things that I think is most needed in the church, and maybe that’s why after the initial excitement about, you know, a lot of people caught the message of Seduction of Christianity , and we got thousands of letters. Wow, I knew there was something wrong, I didn’t know what it was, you’ve explained it. There were pastors who warned their flock: Don’t you dare—they not only warned them, they told them not to read—this was a forbidden book—and people read it, sometimes because it was forbidden, unfortunately. Some of those pastors lost their church because people just left. They realized that what this man was teaching them, who was their pastor, was not according to the Word of God and in fact, that it was contrary to the Word of God although he had been manipulating the scriptures to make it seem that this is what was being taught.
But after the initial excitement, you could say, a lot of people awakened. We got letters from many people—You delivered me from this cult or that occult idea and false idea—we came to Christ, many of them through reading this. Lets say it settled down to kind of a complaint and that was: You’re too negative—why don’t you be positive and just give uplifting teaching and I think I give a lot of uplifting teaching if people followed me around. I think that—and I get this from scripture—one of the greatest, if not the greatest needs, certainly one of the greatest needs in the church today, is correction. The Bible—Paul says that scripture is given for correction and if you would read the prophets, I mean, was Jeremiah positive, you know? Why didn’t Jeremiah encourage the Jewish people more? He had, first of all, to indict them with their sin, with their error, their waywardness from God and from his Word and to try and bring them back to God. What about the prophets? What about Jesus? He was very gentle with the woman at the well, very loving and kind although he did bring her sin before her and brought her to repentance but when he dealt with the religious leaders, the rabbis, he was very sharp with them. You could say he left them bleeding from every pore. He just cut them to ribbons, even his own disciples sometimes because they didn’t heed the scriptures. On the road to Emmaus, for example, those two, He called them fools! He could just as well have said, you idiots! Why didn’t you pay attention to what the prophets have spoken? So, I believe, and Paul writes, all scripture, 11 Timothy:3:16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.: All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable, or to be used for doctrine—you don’t hear too much doctrine today. It’s all experiences, lets have some miracle, lets touch people and see them fall over or what not. I’m not opposed to miracles but they must come from God and they must be genuine, not something we just worked up in order to excite people. But he says the scripture is given for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness. In the next chapter, when he says to Timothy: Preach the word, he didn’t say, preach the word, be positive, build up their self-esteem, make them feel good about themselves, but he says, preach the word, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. So, if I’m going to preach the word, most of the epistles were written to bring correction, were they not? So, if I’m going to preach the word I’m going to have to be ready to bring reproof, to bring correction and Tom, I used to—
Tom:
Dave, I want to just interject this—these are not your own ideas. We are simply being obedient to the scriptures which were encouraging every one else to be. Why? Because we can prove ourselves right and somebody else wrong? No, it’s for their edification isn’t it? For their growth, for their encouragement in the things of God, not the things of men or the things that even seem to be of God but really have no biblical basis.
Dave:
Right. You know, Tom, I used to be in the business world and I’ve had hundreds of employees and I can tell you that if a person, as I evaluate this person, and I’m wasting my time trying to correct them, you know, it’s just useless, fire them because there is nothing you can do. Solomon said: A word to the wise is sufficient. Rebuke a wise man and he will be wiser, but you can grind a fool in a mortar and pestle, you know, his foolishness won’t depart. But if I find a person, an employee that I feel has some real potential and their heart is right, they want to do what’s right, they need some instruction, then you instruct them. Jesus himself said; as many as I love I rebuke and chasten. But we live in a day when to rebuke is, Wow, to chasten, you wouldn’t dare chasten your children. Don’t let anybody see you being too stern with your children in public, in a restaurant, they will take them away from you, you’re guilty of child abuse. Nobody wants to rebuke anyone for anything, lets just build up their self-esteem and help them feel good about themselves. That’s not what the Bible says. So, if I’m going to conscientiously stick to the word of God and I’m going to be a disciple of Jesus Christ, who said as many as I love, I rebuke and chasten, then I must be willing to be rebuked myself. Please, you know, we have listeners out there, you think that what we are saying is not biblical, please let us know. We would be fools not to want to be corrected. I must be willing to be corrected myself. On the other hand, I can’t be so desirous of not offending anyone that I’m afraid to say anything that might be counter to what somebody believes. I’m afraid to reprove anyone or say anything that’s wrong because I want to be, you know, have everybody be my friend and just pat me on the back. No, I’ve got to be sensitive to criticism but I must be certain that it is valid criticism for the word of God. This is why we call our ministry, The Berean Call. The Bereans checked Paul out for the Word of God.
Tom:
And they were commended for doing so.
Dave:
Absolutely. So, I thing we should be checked out. I also think Kenneth Copeland and Hagin, or Billy Graham, or the Pope in Rome , or whoever you want to name, they all should be checked out.
Tom:
But you’re naming people. I mean, some people take offense at that. Why can’t we just deal with the doctrine or the teaching itself.
Dave:
Well Tom, there are a number of reasons. First of all, Matthew 18 says, if your brother offend you, go to him, you know. I haven’t been offended. I’m not offended by what Robert Schuller teaches.
Tom:
Well, we’re offended but we are not personally offended. This is not personal sin against us.
Dave:
Exactly. I am offended for the Lord. It’s not a personal thing although some of them have said some personal things but nevertheless, that’s not what we’re addressing. What we are addressing is publicly taught error, at least in our opinion, that doesn’t square with the Scriptures. Therefore, the only way you can correct it, and you know we have sat down in private with some of these people, as many as would allow us to talk with them and they will say one thing in private, but something else in public.
Tom:
That’s been the case, yes, time after time.
Dave:
I’ll never forget being on a panel with Walter Martin. This was in Denver and this was at a cult conference. On the panel I mentioned, I think somebody asked something about Robert Schuller and I mentioned that Robert Schuller had gone to at least, Summit Missouri Unity School of Christianity, one of the worst cults out there. They deny everything in the Bible, they are into yoga and hypnosis and New Age, deny the gospel of Jesus Christ. That Robert Schuller went there, not to correct them, but to commend them and to share his church growth principles with this horrible cult. And in the question/answer time one of them asked well, what’s the function of a minister in this New Age of which we are all a part, they said. We quoted this in The Seduction of Christianity , as you recall, and Robert Schuller didn’t skip a beat, he didn’t deny he was a part of the New Age. He said well, what we have to do is positivise religion. He said now that’s easy for you, being Unity ministers, ministers in training, you’re already very positive but you understand I deal with people you would call fundamentalists and they use terms like sin and guilt, repentance and redemption. What we have to do is positivise this. Walter Martin was sitting next to me and he said Dave, I don’t want to hear you say that again about Robert Schuller, because I went to him privately about this. I mean, he had, Robert Schuller, for example, had dedicated a Unity Temple in Warren , Michigan in spite of the Baptist pastor writing to him and telling him how horrible Unity is and he shouldn’t do it and so forth. Anyway, Walter Martin said Dave, I don’t want to hear you say that again about Robert Schuller, because I have gone to him personally about this in private and he has agreed that he is not going to be involved with Unity anymore now that he understands how bad it is. Well, I said to Walter, okay, you know, if that’s what he says. A few months later I’m driving in my car and I turn on The Bible Answer Man and it’s Walter Martin telling how Robert Schuller is back with Unity, speaking at their functions and so forth and Walter Martin says, and now he won’t return my phone calls and he won’t answer my letters. So, this is the experience that we’ve had. You talk to someone in private but it doesn’t benefit people out there who have been publicly taught things. Now, furthermore Tom, look, if I said something publicly, why should you have to rebuke me privately? If I’ve said something wrong that has led people astray, why wouldn’t I be willing to acknowledge this? I mean, if I have publicly taught something wrong, then by God’s grace let me have the grace to admit it publicly and to the benefit of those that I have led astray.
Tom:
Right. To do something about it—to change what you’ve written, to correct an error that you’ve promoted.
Dave:
Furthermore Tom, if these men that we’re quoting and we only quote, and I’m not going to, you know, grouse about it, but we’ve had so many—maybe I have more than you—I’ve had so many bad reviews of books, so many statements made about me without any documentation. We don’t make those kinds of statements. We simply quote what people say, what they have said publicly on radio, and their books, on TV. Now if they really believe what they have said publicly, then they should be happy that we quote them because we are just giving broader distribution to what they have said. Now if they are ashamed to be quoted, which I don’t understand, then maybe they have something to apologize for to the people to whom they have said these things. We’re concerned for truth. We’re concerned for the Word of God, for the integrity of the gospel of Jesus Christ because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it, and if you play games with the gospel and you present a false gospel, you compromise, you pervert or corrupt the Word of God, then you are in a dangerous business and furthermore, you are endangering souls for eternity and that is our only concern. Look, if we wanted to be popular we could take a different tact, I could tickle people’s ears. What I’m thinking of is eternity and one day all that matters is: What God is going to say to me? And I will be held accountable for the people to whom I have given a false gospel.
Tom:
You know, Dave, the objections to this from, particularly from evangelicals, is kind of shocking because there are so many examples. Most of the epistles were written for correction, or a large part of what’s found in the epistles were written for correction, and we have the example of the apostle Paul confronting the apostle Peter, you know, to his face before them all and then we have Peter not later saying, well, Paul just ruined my ministry. I mean, you know, he caused my donations to fall off and you know, so on and so forth. That doesn’t happen because Peter recognizes where he did drift away from what God would have him do and that correction—you know, he talks about his beloved Paul. That’s what Christianity needs, not this sort of false sense of ecumenism and, you know, kind of a sort of political or theological correctness, not to offend whatever. No, we just have to do what God’s Word tells us to do. We have to follow—Paul says follow me as I follow Christ. Do the things, you know, we’re not making it up, we’re just trying to be obedient and conform to what God has laid out there through his prophets to do.
Dave:
In His Word. I’ve been accused of causing division and people say— well, Romans 16:17 says: Mark them that cause division among you and avoid them. And I say, No, that’s not what it says, why don’t you go back and read it again. It says: Mark them which cause division among you, contrary to the doctrine you have received, and avoid them. You don’t cause division by standing for the truth, for sound doctrine. You cause division by introducing false doctrine and refusing to be corrected. Division comes as a natural consequence of something. Everywhere Christ went, and you read it four times in the gospel of John, it says there was a division among the Jews because of Him. Division comes because of the consequences of certain things. Number one, there is a distinction between the truth of God and the lie of Satan. Oh, lets not call it the lie of Satan, lets be a little more positive about it, lets just call it humanistic ideas of man, but they are still as bad. As long as Jesus said: I am the way, the truth, the life, no man comes to the Father but by me—that made a clear line of distinction and if you did not accept that, you were opposed to Him, therefore there was a division. The division existed simply because the truth is inflexible. Jesus Christ is inflexible. The Christians were the same thing. The Romans were very broad minded. They had a lot of gods. Remember on Mars Hill in Greece , for example, the whole Roman Empire was full of gods. If the Christians had simply said, well, Jesus is just another way, you know, there are a lot of ways, they would have never been thrown to the lions. And if Jesus had just tried to be positive and be ecumenical and work together with the rabbis and with everybody else and say, well, as long as you’re sincere that’s okay, he wouldn’t have even been crucified. He could have been very popular. It wasn’t God’s fault, it was not the fault of Jesus that the division. It’s the fault of those who refused to accept the truth! If we’re standing for the truth, we can’t expect to be popular. We can’t expect that we will not have people who will be upset, who will be angry. What we can expect is this: that there will be those who will recognize that truth matters. You can’t compromise because one day God has the final say. So, we’re only trying to stand for the truth of the Word of God and if what we are saying is not right, then, please, tell us and we will repent, but if what we are saying is right, then don’t let popularity, personalities or some other idea influence you, for time when what really counts is eternity.
Tom:
Right. You know, Dave, this doesn’t relate just to these leading or highly visible Christian leaders that some of whom we have been addressing, but it may be something in a Bible study or in a Sunday school where something is taught and you say, wait a minute. You know, it’s not like you have to be a thorn in everybody’s flesh about this or a nit picker on every element, but there are some things that are promoted that are not true to God’s Word and if you have a love for the person teaching, teaching comes with a very heavy responsibility and for those who are in a study with you or those you are associated with. You, at least I would think, would have to ask the question: But wait a minute, brother, you know, can you explain to me where this is in the scriptures so I can better understand it? I mean, you know, sometimes would it speak to love and truth and how we go about it is important, but that’s what we are trying to encourage here. Search the scriptures, be like the Bereans, encourage one another in the faith. Once and for all delivered unto the saints.
Dave:
Amen.
