You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000.
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: What scripture do you use to support the idea that the soul is a separate entity from the body? Ecclesiastes:9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten., very clearly tells us that the dead know not anything. 1 Thessalonians:4:13-18 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
, says that the dead in Christ are asleep.
Tom:
Dave, we don’t know whether this individual who wrote to us about this, whether this is something he believes, or he is wrestling with somebody, perhaps an occult that believes in annihilation after death, and so on, but it’s a question that we can come to grips with. First of all, Ecclesiastes:9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten., does that mean the dead know nothing? Are we talking about someone who dies and ceases to exist?
Dave:
Well, let me deal first with the difference between soul and spirit, since that was what they asked first.
Tom:
Sure.
Dave:
The Bible does clearly distinguish. Hebrews 4:12 says, “For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit—” Sounds like they are different. 1 Thessalonians:5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ., you know, I don’t remember the references but I remember what it says. Paul said, I pray God that your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless until the day of Jesus Christ. So, He’s distinguishing between the spirit, soul and body. We are tri-part beings, like the triune God who created us. So there is no question that the Bible distinguishes between the body, soul and spirit. Now, as far as the dead knowing nothing, the dead bodies don’t know anything. Actually, Solomon is talking about “under the sun” that’s the key phrase.
Tom:
Ecclesiastes:9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten..
Dave:
“Under the sun, under the sun, under the sun” well, you’re not under the sun anymore, you have no more part on this earth, you have left—a good argument against reincarnation because you don’t come back again, you’re finished with this earth. But as far as the soul and the spirit sleeping and being unconscious, it doesn’t sound like that when Jesus talks about the rich man in hell—he lift up his eyes being in torment, it says. And he’s communing with Abraham, Abraham is there and Lazarus, the beggar. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, Today you will be with Me in paradise. It doesn’t sound like they’re sleeping. It says that Jesus preached to the spirits that were in prison who before were—this is 1 Peter Chapter 3—preached to the spirits who were in prison, who before in the days of Noah had been disobedient. Doesn’t sound to me like they are sleeping. Paul, in Philippians Chapter 1, he said, I am in a strait betwixt two—that means he’s on the horns of a dilemma here—having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better. He’s got a desire to be with Christ, I mean, what’s the point of sleeping next to Christ, is Christ asleep up there? Is Paul going to be asleep?
Tom:
2 Corinthians:5:8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord., presents the same problem: “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Well, we weren’t talking about an extended presence or an extended time of thoughtlessness or ceasing to exist.
Dave:
So surely Paul didn’t want to just go to sleep, he wants to be with Christ, absent from the body, present with the Lord, I mean, present with the Lord doesn’t mean anything if you’re all unconscious. So this is not a biblical teaching at all.
Tom:
You know, and to me it really flies against, I mean it’s worse than that, it denies the very love relationship that began when we were born again in Christ. How can I look forward to a time in which I will cease to know Christ, cease to know anything? He said, I’ll never leave you nor forsake you, He’s our love, this just does great damage to that, plus, you know, it’s wrong.
Dave:
Well, then of course it would give courage to the unsaved to believe that they would be annihilated. So, if I don’t accept Christ, I can live any kind of life I want, Hitler is no worse off now than somebody who lived like a saint. Because he has been annihilated, there’s no consciousness any more. Then what are we going to do with the fact that Revelation Chapter 20 says, “I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away?? And the books are open and the dead are standing before, and the dead are judged out of those things in the Book. Well, it sounds to me like dead people can stand before God in judgment. So, everything that I read in the Word of God, Jesus warned people about being cast into hell, He warned them to flee from his at all costs. What does it mean—I wouldn’t flee from it if it just means annihilation. I can’t think, I can’t feel, I’m just finished. The Bible simple does not teach that, and everything the Bible says is to the contrary.
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to address in a future Contending for the Faith, stay tuned, we’ll have our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We turn now to our final segment.
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
We return once again to 2000, with Dave and Tom:
Tom:
Dave, in our segment of Understanding the Scriptures, trying to help our listeners, as well as ourselves, I mean, we learn from this as well. But trying to understand the scriptures better the topic has been, The Gospel of Salvation, which is central to our whole lives as Christians. But according to the scriptures, man is under condemnation for sin, and I want to go over some verses here. Romans:5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” Now Romans:8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. tells us, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” And John 3:18 says, “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” What I want to address here is condemnation, we are really cut off from God if we don’t believe. So, for the lost condemnation is what they have to look forward to.
Dave:
Well, the Bible says we are condemned already. Psalm 1 says the ungodly will not stand in judgment. And what it means, of course, doesn’t mean that their works won’t be judged. We’ve quoted Revelation 20, they will be judged out of the Books that have been written according to their works. bit what it says is, they are not going to be judged as to whether they are saved or lost. They are condemned already. So, we have sinned, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, the wages of sin is death, the scripture says, that God’s judgment is upon all mankind. So it’s not a question of, am I going to be condemned or not, I am condemned already the Scripture says.
Tom:
It involves God’s wrath as well, doesn’t it? Well, Ephesians:5:6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience., Let no one be deceived. The reason I want to quote these scriptures is because people listening to a program like this, who have just tuned in, first of all they would say, Well, that’s just their opinion. And what they are laying on is a trip here, a guilt trip, or whatever. We are just presenting what God’s Word says, and it’s either true or it’s not true, and our listeners are going to have to wrestle with that. But this is what God’s Word presents, it says, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” Matthew:25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:, “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew:25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal., “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” One more Scripture on this one, 2 Thessalonians:1:8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:,9, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.” Now these are very sobering Scriptures that we don’t hear a lot.
Dave:
Yeah, Tom, I didn’t quote thoroughly John 3:18 , “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” In other words, because we have sinned we have rebelled against God, we’ve broken his laws, there are consequences. You can’t even play a game, football, basketball or whatever it is, tiddlywinks I guess, you can’t even play anything unless you have rules, and when you break the rules there are consequences. And God created this universe, and I think it’s only reasonable that He should decide the rules. Sin is basically rebellion against God refusing to go by God’s rules. It’s robbing God of the purpose that He had in creating the human being, and I’m tearing out of God’s hands my life that He has given me. Maybe saying it just happened by chance, you know, it’s an evolutionary process and I’m in charge and I’m going to live it the way I please. God cannot tolerate that in His universe. Now He is very gracious and patient and merciful, but He says finally it’s going to come down to this. He’s going to have to destroy the whole universe that He made because sin has entered in and He’s going to create a new universe, (this is what the Bible says), wherein dwelleth righteousness, and only those who are willing to be what He wants them to be, and have been reconciled to God through faith in the penalty that Christ paid on the cross for our sins. Those are the only ones who will be in that new universe. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
Tom:
That’s not only not unreasonable, He gives all provision for us—I mean, if somebody was listening to what you had to say, Oh well, I have to do this, that and this. No, it’s a gift God has provided, He has provided the sacrifice, the payment for the penalty, and He offers that to us.
Dave:
You would have to be pretty stubborn to refuse to accept the pardon God offers, I mean, God is so gracious, so merciful. But look, it’s like this, Tom, let’s say that I’m a judge, and you’re my son, and you stand before me in court. And the jury has weighed the evidence, they found you guilty of murder. But somebody sitting in the back of the courtroom says, Yeah, but he’s not going to condemn his son, I mean, he loves his son. No, I have to! Otherwise it’s corruption.
Tom:
Right, you’re not a just judge.
Dave:
That’s right, and God’s holy character, his righteousness compels him to stand behind His Word. I’ve seen so many families, as a grandpa, you know, now you’re tempted to be like this where a little girl or a little boy does something they shouldn’t and mommy says, You do that again, or daddy says, You’re going to get it, and then they just defy. I’ve seen them just defy their parents and do the same thing again and there’s no consequences! So, a lot of parents are teaching their children that they can run the show. Some of these little 2-year-olds might just as well have an emperor’s crown on their heads, you know. The family is afraid to cross them, they’ll throw a tantrum. So we are teaching them that the parent’s word doesn’t mean anything, you can violate it without any consequences, I mean, that brings total chaos in a family! It brings chaos on this earth because man has rebelled against God. And God is not going to tolerate this, He’s patient, He’s not willing that any should perish, He’s calling men to repentance. But the times comes when God says, Look, I say what I mean and I mean what I say, and if I were not that kind of a God the whole universe would be chaotic. And now He offers, as you said, He offers pardon on a righteous basis. It’s not just a bookkeeping entry that He makes, He just turns his head the other way, or just says, Okay, I forgive you. No, God himself became a man to the virgin birth and paid the penalty that His own infinite justice required. It wasn’t just what men did to Him on the cross, that would only add to our condemnation, but He took our place, He paid the penalty, became the sin sacrifice, the scripture says. On that basis He can forgive us and pardon us and give us eternal life for all who will accept what Jesus has done in their place. But if they will not do that, then they are stubborn rebels refusing to let God be God in His universe. And to think that God would tolerate that, that’s impossible!
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. The Berean Call invites you to make your plans now for our 3 rd annual TBC Conference coming up this November 14 th through the 16 th here in Bend , Oregon . This year’s event will be held at the beautiful new Riverhouse Convention Center . The theme for 2008 is, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny , the title of Dave Hunt’s soon to be released new book. A feature speaker will be Roger Oakland, author of the controversial expose on the Emerging Church , Faith Undone from Lighthouse Trail Publishing. TBC also welcomes Dr. Donald Chittick, an authority on the topic of origins and earth history with a special interest in the first 11 chapters of Genesis. Of course, TBC’s Tom McMahon and Dave Hunt will both be there debating there addressing the hotly debated creation/evolution issues. Tickets are just $75 for adults and children under 18 are free with accompanying adult. For more information go to our website at www.thebereancall.org , or call 1-800-937-6638, we hope to see you this November here in Bend at the 3 rd Annual TBC Conference, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny. And now, to tell you more about our ministry here’s TBC Executive Director Tom McMahon: The name, The Berean Call, is taken from the Book of Acts, Chapter 17, verses 10 and 11, where we find the apostle Paul entering the synagogue in the Greek City of Berea after he had just come from Thessalonica. To these Bereans he preached that Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah sent from God. They were commended for being noble, or fair minded, not only for their willingness to hear what Paul had to say about the matter, but more specifically, because they searched the scriptures daily to find out whether or not what the apostle was saying was found in God’s Word. That’s what we hope to encourage through this ministry. Our mission is to alert believers in Christ to unbiblical teachings and practices impacting the church. We want to exhort believers to give great heed to biblical discernment and truth regarding what they are accepting as spiritual. We hope to supply those who profess to be biblical Christians with information and material that will encourage the love of God’s truth. Hopefully, we can help believers in Christ to action in obedience to the scriptural command to earnestly contend for the faith in Jude 3. And finally, our prayer is that we can be used of God to stimulate Christians to look to the Bible alone as their rule of faith, authority and practice in living lives pleasing to our Lord and Savior.
Gary :
We offer a wide variety of teaching materials that will help you expand your knowledge of God’s Word, from books and tracts and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend , Oregon 97708 , call us at our toll free order number 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org . If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #4008, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. Get a pen or pencil ready, we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment.
Next week, we’ll continue our re-visit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, Occult Invasion , and, Should Christians use divination? In Religion in the News, The one size fits all college chapel, we’ll take a look at that story and address the question: Who were the nephelum? We hope you can tune in. If you have questions or comments about this program, we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily radio ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for joining us and invite you to tune in again next week. In the meantime, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the Scriptures daily. For more information about The Berean Call, contact us at PO Box 7019 , Bend , Oregon 97708 , call our toll free order number, 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org .
