Welcome to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael thanks for joining us. Coming up in today’s program in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation focusing on the question “What is meant by More Abundant Life?” In Religion in the News, “The Monogamy or Polygamy Dichotomy” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “What’s Wrong with Your Imagination?” We hope you can stay tuned. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s Cover Article. We continue a revisit to our 2000 radio series based on Dave Hunt’s book Occult Invasion . Today we focus on the question, “Healing the Inner Child?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s Tom McMahon:
Tom:
Thanks Gary . We are picking up where we left off last week. Our subject is the rise of occultism in Christianity and in particular its entry through psychology and inner healing. In our previous show we discussed the occult foundations of psychotherapy. Today we plan to discuss some of the ways that the spread of occultism is taking place in the church. Dave, Christian psychology is one of the major vehicles isn’t it?
Dave:
One of the major vehicles for occultism coming into the church is indeed Christian psychology because Christian psychology isn’t something new on its own. You can look it up in any index in any textbook, in any university or seminary in the library. In any psychology textbook there is no listing for Christian psychology because there is no Christian that is the founder of a school of Christian psychology. So what is Christian psychology? They have taken it from the theories of godless, in fact, anti-Christians to a man, every one of them is and as we noted last week, much of psychology comes out of the occult.
Tom:
Right, if this is new to some of our listeners and perhaps shocking, last week we laid the occult foundation of psychology, giving examples of how it started and what was involved particularly in regard to occultism.
Dave:
Yes, Carl Jung had his own spirit guide. Philemon he called him, that’s where he got most of his major theories. “A screeching chorus of ghosts….” These are his words, filled his home outside of Zurich and in three days and three nights under their inspiration he wrote his major work Septem Sermones ad Mortuos—The Seven Sermons to the Dead . He believed that he traveled with the dead in the spirit world that he was the preacher, the pastor to the dead, and it goes on and on. His major theories came out of the occult and we could talk about Carl Rogers and many others and so this is where it comes from. Now I want to quote Martin L. Gross. He is an investigative reporter, not a Christian; in fact he is an anti-Christian, so that makes all these words all the more interesting. He says, “Freud’s atheistic ideas have paradoxically influenced ministers, priests and rabbis who now flock to courses in pastoral counseling making many members of the cloth seem more Freudian than Christian.” Rather interesting, so Christian psychology isn’t Christian psychology. It is psychology from the world which is atheistic, it’s occult manifestations actually, that’s the origin of it, much of it, not all of it and they’ve brought it into the church and they’ve dressed it up in biblical language. Now let me just say another couple of things here, just to bring our listeners up to speed.
Tom:
It’s your mike, go for it!
Dave:
I’m quoting R. Christopher Barden, because Tom one of the reasons we have to say this is because the world has been deceived into thinking that psychology, secular psychology is scientific which it is NOT. And under that basis then many pastors have said well if this is scientific, well then it must be very helpful. So here’s a quotation from R. Christopher Barden. He’s a psychologist lawyer. He’s the president of the National Association for Consumer Protection in Mental Health Practices and listen to what he says, “It is indeed shocking that many if not most forms of psychotherapy currently offered to consumers are not supported by credible scientific evidence. And let me quote one other authority E. Fuller Torrey. He’s an internationally respected psychiatrist, again not a Christian, he says, “Psychiatry has been willing to sanctify its values with the holy water of medicine and offer them up as the true faith of mental health. It is a false messiah. So from the very beginning it’s very questionable at best; harmful at worst; not scientific. You know the psychiatrist themselves of every profession—the highest percentage of them under the care of psychiatrists, divorces, emotional problems, suicide and so forth. They can’t help themselves. So now—
Tom:
This stuff doesn’t work and we have not Dave Hunt saying this, or T.A. McMahon. We have research psychiatrists, people who are committed to checking their own field out.
Dave:
Many of them Tom. They recognize the bankruptcy of their own profession and they write against it. Now that Christians would now embrace this and bring into the church as though this could somehow supplement or improve the Bible is staggering. Of course as we have pointed out the man who first did that was Norman Vincent Peale. I am sure you want to get to that but in 1937 he established a psychiatric clinic and it had one psychiatrist in his church and it grew to more than a score of doctors and ministers and that became the inspiration for Christian psychology. And by the way, the entire evangelical church opposed this for about 50 years. But now it has been embraced. So this is where it came from. It came into the church and we’ve embraced it as though the manufacturer’s handbook, you know God created us in His image and our problem is that man rebelled against Him. We have the restoration of fellowship with God and a dynamic life in Christ through Christ indwelling the believer, but instead of relying upon that—
Tom:
It’s not sufficient according to this view.
Dave:
No, so we say well, but we’ve got to integrate. Let me just quote from an advertisement by Wheaton College in Christianity Today. It says that what they are offering is “the integration of psychological theory with Christian faith.” Now why do we need to add psychological theory to the Christian faith? For 1900 years the Christian faith was sufficient. The Bible says the just shall live by faith. We walk by faith, we’re saved by faith and we live by faith in Christ. But now suddenly that’s not enough. That’s not good enough and we’ve got to add to it psychological theory which is theory. There are hundreds of psychological theories which contradict one another, they don’t work, why do we want to bring them into the church? But now you want to talk about occultism—
Tom:
Yes, but before we get to that Dave, I just want to add this. When we are talking about wanting to walk by faith, we’re talking about the content of faith, the Word of God. As you mentioned earlier, He’s the manufacturer and He’s given us the “manufacturer’s handbook” and all things that we need to live a life that’s pleasing to Him—it’s in the book, but they are saying the book’s not sufficient; we have to turn somewhere else to science, but as we’ve established and we can continue to underscore, psychology, psychotherapy is not scientific.
Dave:
So let me just add this. We’ve probably said it before Tom, but it is so simple and so logical. If Christian psychology has anything of any value to offer the Christian, then the church was without it for 1900 years and the Holy Spirit somehow left out of the Bible things that we need to have to deal with our problems today. But when I read Hebrews 11 for example, the great faith chapter, I read of people who suffered. They suffered, they were slaughtered, they were hated, they were chased, they were starved, they dwelt in dens and caves, they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, tormented, afflicted, of whom the world was not worthy and yet they triumphed through faith.
Tom:
Right and these were really practical problems that they had.
Dave:
Absolutely.
Tom:
Everything that we experience today—you can’t say well we are more sophisticated, more anxious, more anxiety-ridden society—I don’t believe it for a minute. What do we face that they didn’t have to face?
Dave:
So let’s take it from James Dobson himself. We’re not trying to criticize James Dobson, he’s a very sincere man, a lot of what he does we have to commend him for, but on the other hand in his Focus on the Family magazine he said that (well I’m going by memory) this is a paraphrase, but it is very close to an exact quote. He said “Christian psychology is a good profession, a wonderful profession for any young Christian to aspire to (now these are his words) provided their faith is strong enough to withstand the humanism to which they will be exposed.” Now you have to ask yourself why do Christians have to go to humanists? They are anti-Christians, they hate God, they hate the Bible, but why must we go and study under them and study humanism in order to learn how to improve the Bible and to counsel from the Bible. It doesn’t make sense, but this is exactly what it is. In fact, Dr. Dobson and Dr. Gary Collins—he was interviewing Collins on his radio program, they pointed out that psychology is based upon the same five foundation points as atheistic humanism, but they said we can integrate it with the Bible. Now I believe that the Bible is sufficient. It’s been sufficient for Christians, for centuries, for thousands of years. Why then do we have to integrate godless theories that aren’t scientific, that don’t work and that are even harmful? Well, but we are going to sort through them and we’re going to throw out the ones that aren’t right, but we’ll use the ones that are biblical. I want to quote again the last few verses of one of my favorite poems. It says: Who would leave the noon day bright, to grope mid-shadows dim, and who would leave the fountain head to drink the muddy stream where men have mixed what God has said with every dreamer’s dream? I don’t think we should mix this stuff in with the Bible, because the Bible is perfect. This is God’s Word, and it claims as you quoted earlier 2 Peter:1:3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: “According as his divine power hath given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue…” Now the whole secret to the Christian life—I mean it’s not me struggling to live a good life—it’s Christ in you, Christ is my life and I do not believe that Christ in me needs any help from a psychotherapist and I don’t care whether you call it Christian psychology or what. What we need is to allow Christ to have his way in our lives. We need to deny self and take up the cross and follow Christ and trust Him to live His life through us. That’s all we are saying Tom. Search the scriptures daily, get back to the Word of God. Unfortunately Christian psychology undermines our confidence in the scripture because it says it’s not sufficient and we need some help.
Tom:
Dave I remember back when you and Martin Bobgan, who’s written, along with Deidre Bobgan have written many books about Christian psychology and they are terrific books, but I remember when you were at Fuller speaking to—
Dave:
No, Martin was speaking—
Tom:
Oh Martin was speaking? But anyway, he gave a challenge to them. Do you remember what the challenge was?
Dave:
Well Tom they didn’t invite him to speak to the whole group. They in fact, they don’t allow me or Martin Bobgan to really speak on this subject at our seminaries, at our Christian colleges, we are really banned. You probably know that John Ankerberg for example, tried for years to get any Christian psychologists to come on his television program and discuss the issues with us. No one has been willing to do it. But anyway they allowed Martin to speak to a small class. These were pastors who had gone back to get their PhDs in psychology in order to supposedly be effective in counseling from the Bible. I was sitting in the back of the class and I can tell you I was embarrassed, I was slinking down in my seat to get smaller and smaller because—
Tom:
Why were you embarrassed Dave?
Dave:
Because Martin Bobgan was laying it out clearly, the bankruptcy of this whole thing that they were studying and I was sure that there would be a wholesale exodus. They would all just abandon this because what he laid out was so factual—it was so thoroughly documented and couldn’t be denied. You know he didn’t change anybody’s idea at all. And so in the question and answer time they asked him some questions and then he challenged them. He said what we have to deal with are two basic problems: that is the model of man and the method of change. Now he said give me one theory out of psychology concerning the model of man-what is man- and the method of change-how do we change him—that is biblical, that the Bible hasn’t said first and said better—that’s going to improve upon this. There was a long embarrassed silence and finally one person spoke up and said, “well I’ve found psychology very helpful in potty training mentally retarded children.” Now Tom, I think it is pitiful that was the best they could come up with.
Tom:
Well even that is fallacious, I mean—
Dave:
Well it is, but now here are pastors and they have left their pulpits to come back to get a PhD in psychology so that they can be more effective in handling the Word of God and when Dr. Bobgan asks them—give me one reason why you are here, give me one thing out of psychology—that psychology offers concerning the two basic problems that we face—the model of man and the method of change—tell me what is it? There are a couple of professors there, here’s the class—they cannot come up with anything.
Tom:
Dave couldn’t we just simplify this even more and just ask people who are into this what has this provided that is efficacious, that is effective? That you don’t find in God’s Word. I mean if it is something new and something unique and something that works and something that’s very practical, we’d say fine with one proviso: Is it true to God’s Word or is it contrary to God’s Word? Because we know that there is pleasure in sin for a season and some things can seem to be effective, but in essence that’s a challenge.
Dave:
Yes, now we haven’t gotten to the occultism that you wanted to get to Tom.
Tom:
Well we have other programs Dave.
Dave:
We may have another week for this, I am sorry.
Tom:
Well let’s go back to Norman Vincent Peale in particular because he is of all the people involved in this who have had impact, you would have to start with him wouldn’t you? Well what I want to get at with regard to him is his theology. It seems to me it’s very consistent with the occult practices of psychotherapy.
Dave:
Well he offers occult practices. For example, he tells you that visualizing people—if you are a pastor—this is in his book, The Power of Positive Imaging—
Tom:
Imaging, right.
Dave:
He tells you if a pastor wants to increase his congregation he needs to visualize people coming into that church. And that will bring it about. Norman Vincent Peale in that book tells how he went out as a young pastor—they needed some money. And one of the board members that he had said to him, Look you go out and (he gave him a list of wealthy people in his congregation) you ask each of them for a contribution of $5000 and I will visualize them writing out the check to you. Norman Vincent Peale said well is that going to work? Well go ahead and try it. And he went to the first man, a physician, and he asked him for a contribution of $5000. The man laughed and said you think I am going to give you that? And then suddenly his whole manner changed. He pulled out his checkbook and wrote out a check for $5000 and Dr. Peale comes back to his board member and says it worked, it worked, I’m amazed. He [the board member] said of course it worked. I sent a thought hovering over you that hit him right between the eyes and changed his whole way of thinking. Dr. Peale said yes, I saw it hit him. I saw it change him. Now two quick things: 1) It’s not even ethical. I am going to get people to write out a check for my church by this kind of mind power, if that’s what it is? It’s not ethical. 2) What is this? This is not the power of God. This is occultism. Now let me just quote Dr. Peale, real fast—I know you have to get back in here, but let me just quote it real fast. He says, “Who is God? Some theological being—(I am quoting him from page 118 of Occult Invasion and we give you all the full documentation.) “Who is God, some theological being? God is energy. As you breathe God in, as you visualize His energy, you will be re-energized. Prayer power is a manifestation of energy. Just as there exists scientific techniques for the release of atomic energy, so are there scientific procedures for the release of spiritual energy through the mechanism of prayer.” So prayer is a scientific mechanism. This is science of mind, religious science—this is occultism.
Tom:
Dave you put the example before the statement that I wanted to make and that is that his theology is religious science; it is mind science. Some people believe that Norman Vincent Peale is a evangelical Christian or he’s a conservative Christian, but his theology is really religious science; mind science. It goes back to Mary Baker Eddy, to Christian Science—that’s the heart of it.
Dave:
Yes, well it is occultism. Somebody says well what does that have to do with Christian psychology? Well he’s the founder of Christian psychology. Okay, well so what? That doesn’t mean that Christian psychology has to partake of everything he believes. Well, as a matter of fact, there are hundreds of Christian psychologists who use hypnosis in their therapy. They regress people back into the past. This is a technique that has been in the occult for thousands of years. It is one of the most powerful occult techniques and we’ve discussed it before. It is even banned by California for example, will not allow testimony in court by any one who has been hypnotized. Because they can no longer remember exactly what happened if they have been hypnotized concerning the subject of the court proceedings. This has been fully documented in occultism, and yet they continue with this. They also have you visualizing Jesus. Many Christian psychologists have you do that. This is not the Jesus of the Bible. Going back in the past and visualizing Jesus coming along side and so forth, so we are running out of time Tom, but there are many other ways that we could document in which occultism has come into the church through Christian psychology.
Tom:
Dave we are going to get into inner healing. Inner healing by the way is a form of therapy, but it’s sort of more spiritual. When I say sort of, it’s not necessarily practiced by licensed psychotherapist, although they are into it to a great degree. It’s a ministry found among many people in the church and there is a connection here with Religious Science. For example, Agnes Sanford we can talk about next week if we have time. Ruth Carter Stapleton, the sister of Jimmy Carter—there are people who have developed this in the church and their background is really Religious Science, mind science. That’s the occult connection here that we are concerned about.
Dave:
Yes, so psychotherapy is what you could say the atheistic secular psychologist use. Let me quote Lawrence LaSham, we’ve probably quoted him before. He is president of the American Psychological Association who said, “Psychotherapy will be known as the hoax of the 20 th century.” But it is as you said closely related not just to practices among Christian psychologists who follow these same proceedings, but now we have lay persons and they are doing wholesale psychotherapy on an audience—getting them into a quiet mood, and visualizing themselves and going back and seeing Jesus coming along side and so forth. So this is a form of psychotherapy which is being done to entire audiences and it’s called inner healing.
Tom:
Now this is in the church big time and one of the reasons for this program is to not only alert people to things that are going which we believe are drawing them away from God’s Word, from what God wants, from doing things His way. So we would challenge people to check these things out. Again this is the—our program here is Search the Scriptures—be Bereans—look to these things and see if they are true to God’s Word.
Dave:
Amen.
