Search the Scriptures Daily Program #2101a:
Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, thanks for tuning in. Coming up in this week’s broadcast, we complete our revisit to last fall’s series with Martin and Deidre Bobgan titled “Psychology versus the Bible.” In our Understanding the Scriptures segment Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of the doctrine of salvation and “Do signs and wonders help us to believe?” In Religion in the News: “Drugging our kids to cheer them up-dare we say no?” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Do you have the right psychological profile to be a missionary?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers many teaching materials including books, tracts, audio and video tapes and copies of our weekly broadcast on tape or compact disc. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter which we offer free of charge. We will let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s cover article: wrapping up our revisit to “Psychology versus the Bible,” and along with his guests Martin and Deidre Bobgan, here’s Tom McMahon:
Tom:
Thanks Gary . Martin and Deidre thanks for being on the program and for all your truly edifying work.
Deidre:
Well we are delighted to be with you and have this opportunity to share with your listeners.
Martin:
Yes.
Tom:
Now today we want to jump right in with a question that I am sure many of our listeners who have been listening for a while would like to ask. While you have made a very strong case for professional psychology and their underlying psychology is questionable at best, detrimental at worst and a spiritual counterfeit at least, what then is a Christian to do that needs help?
Deidre:
You know people ask that and they forget that through all of the 2000 years that the church has been in existence since the death and resurrection of Christ, there has been a care, a cure of souls and this all happened prior to the whole advent of psychotherapy and it came to the fore again during the Reformation. In the Reformation there were five what are called “alones” and we believe these are basic to the care of souls: Sola scriptura - by scripture alone; sola gratia - by grace alone; solo Christo – by Christ alone; sola fide – by faith alone; and sole deo Gloria – to the glory of God alone. Therefore God has a body, Christ’s body it’s called in scripture, of believers to minister to one another. But more than that he has given his Holy Spirit to every believer to come in and live in that believer. He has given us His Word and then we’re to draw along side, not the one-up-man-ship like in any kind of a therapeutic situation where one is the expert and one is underneath. No, it’s two people at the foot of the cross, seeking the truth of God, the wisdom of God, the help of God through His Word, through His Holy Spirit and then also through the ordinances of the church. The whole thing of coming together in communion, remembering Christ’s death, looking forward to his return and focusing more on God rather than focusing on what must be way deep inside of us that we haven’t discovered yet.
Tom:
Yes, saying this another way Deidre, maybe with my bumper sticker mentality- God is the manufacturer, we’re His creation.
Deidre:
That’s right.
Tom:
He’s given [us] the manufacturer’s handbook for how to go about life, how to live a life that is truly productive and pleasing to him. If He didn’t then is something that we would have to make up as we’ve gone along and as you’ve mentioned this has been put in the hands of men and women who for the most part, at least from the writings, are anti-Christian.
Deidre:
Now here’s what Paul urged believers: (Colossians:2:6-8 [6] As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
[7] Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
[8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
) “As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.” You know we have everything for living a godly life that we need.
Tom:
Yes well verse 10: “And ye are complete in him….”
Deidre:
That’s right we are complete in Him! He has given us so much and it’s almost like we’ve become blinded to all that he has supplied.
Tom:
Yes, you know there are so many scriptures and I want to not only address some of the scriptures in this segment, but just because they lay it out and sometimes we’ve gotten so far away from it because we’ve been basically duped by so much that comes out of psychology and psychotherapy. 2 Timothy:3:15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.: “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” But 2 Timothy:3:16-17 [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
says, “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” Now that’s either true or it’s not.
Deidre:
Well and what has happened is people have turned to the inspiration of Freud and Jung rather than relying on what God has given through his own inspiration.
Martin:
They’ve been intimidated out of using the very thing that God has equipped us with and they’re intimidated by a variety of things. We live in a professional environment. We have all kinds of professionals that provide services and so the psychological professionals come along and we think oh here’s another professional. They have to take care of our problems. No, God has already equipped us and one of my favorite verses is Hebrews:4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart., “For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful…and I could say the rest of it, but sometimes people see read that, they see it, they say it, and yet they don’t really grasp it entirely because as you remember as you go through Hebrews:4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. the Word of God quick and powerful, we don’t have any promises that can be proven from psychotherapists that they have something quick and powerful for us, we have the Word. Now we are the resistant ones, but if we let the Word work in our lives, it’s quick and powerful and as you get to the end of that [verse], we know that it’s “…a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” Now there we are really getting down to it: the inner man. We are getting down to the heart that we have to work with only the Word of God, only the Holy Spirit knows the heart and we don’t. It gives us an opportunity to use the Word so that the Word might be used in a life and that the Holy Spirit can convict the heart and work the change that needs to be done.
Tom:
2 Peter:1:3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: is one of my favorite verses along this line: “According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue…:” Martin and Deidre it seems to me that all this other stuff out there displaces that. It moves us away, it doesn’t give us a heart for the very things, the very promises as you said Martin, that God has for us and will enable us to accomplish not by might, not by power, but by His Spirit.
Deidre:
Yes, it removes concentration and focus away from God and His Word to me and my therapist as someone who is going to change me. And so here, when we look at the Christian walk, we see that when a person is born again, when he is saved, justified, that is a work that God does instantly. That is the process of sanctification. God works through His Word, through His Holy Spirit and through the body of Christ, the various Christians in our lives, to conform us to the image of Christ. He uses all the circumstances in our lives in order to work that in us, so that He can—He is in the process of creating something that’s far beyond our comprehension. Psychotherapy attempts to relieve guilt, to make people feel better about themselves, to kind of deal with daily things that—that’s what they try to do. But you see God is in a process that is so much greater than we can even imagine and so when we get sidetracked with all of these other things, we are slowing down God’s process.
Martin:
Yes, I think there is another danger here too. Another danger is that we not only warn about psychology and its underlying psychologies, but there’s a whole biblical counseling movement that has come along. Much of the biblical counseling movement is just a kind of, if you will reflection of the psychological counseling movement in that you have somebody with a certificate or degree in biblical counseling, you have an office, you have somebody coming in one person after another, there is sometimes a fee, etc., etc. Even the use of the terminology, I mean you have counselor, counseling, and you have counselee. Well, even the term counselee, if you look in the OED, that’s the Oxford English Dictionary, you’ll find it was coined in the 1930s. Why? Well because they didn’t want to call a person a patient anymore, and so they came up with this term, counselee. It’s not a biblical term. When you talk about the counselor and the counseling he does, we traced this back in one of our books, and we point out how this wasn’t what these terms meant in the Bible and we point out what’s happened in the biblical counseling movement too often is you’ve just replicated what’s out there in psychology. What we’re interested in is encouraging people to use what they already have. We first want to make sure the individual knows Jesus Christ as Savior. He is a saved, born-again, converted individual. We want to make sure that this individual puts God first; he has the maturity of the faith in his life. Even at the beginning stages he can minister to other people and those who are more mature in Christ can come alongside and help bear the burden without fear that they don’t have a psychology degree or a biblical counseling certificate. We’re putting it down at the layman’s level. The person who isn’t a theologian, he doesn’t have a four year Bible college degree, not that we’re going to exclude people like that, but people don’t need these things. They are able to do what God has empowered them to do through the use of the Word and by the Holy Spirit.
Tom:
Martin I’m thinking about some pastors out there that are thinking well I am so busy, I don’t have time for counseling, I am going to refer them to an elder or something like that, or to some individual. But the pastor is really missing it because if he has believers in his church, or walking, has some maturity, but you said even maturity, God has given us what He’s given us and we can use that to His glory.
Deidre:
I think also the Lord has—the way He has set up the body, we have that older women are to minister to younger women, now this is not only for the benefit of the younger woman, but the benefit of the older woman. You see when we minister encouragement, when we minister to one another care—it might just be something as simple as bringing meals, taking care of children, giving people rides, to sitting and listening to someone who has lost a loved one, but whatever it is….
Tom:
Ministering truth, giving godly counsel. Now you know we are trying to make a distinction here, but ministering God’s Word to these individuals for whatever problems that they might have and as we’ve quoted from scripture God has given us all. He’s the manufacturer, this is the manufacturer’s handbook, and we can be used of Him to that end.
Deidre:
That’s right and when you draw alongside someone, and you are looking to the Lord to be the counselor, the Holy Spirit to minister, you are looking at the Word together, guess who is ministered to? Both individuals; both begin receiving and sometimes we’ve talked to people who have done this and they say I get more out of it than the person who’s there probably because the Lord is just ministering to me through His Word, the Lord is convicting me by his Holy Spirit as we look together into scriptures, so it’s not someone who is kind of this change agent who is going to change this other person. I think this is a lot of what people expect in counseling. Someone else is going to change, bring about the changes that will be comfortable so that the person doesn’t have to go through really having to do— you see people talk about the hard work of psychotherapy that the person has to go through and a lot of it is very painful, but it’s the wrong kind of pain. Yes, the work of sanctification at times can be painful because there can be painful situations in our lives that we need to walk through. As we walk with one another through the valley of the shadow of death, when we go through these dark places with one another, it’s not that one person is going to “fix it” for the other person. It’s that we are together in Christ; we are going to see what God is going to do here. Let’s look into the Word, what is the Word saying here in this situation to encourage or to direct? So it’s not some expert. It is a fellow believer who is looking together with you into the Word and to the Lord.
Tom:
Right, simply to be God’s instrument. Let me give you and not you but I mean our listeners here, another encouraging verse. I Peter 4:10-11, “As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God. If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” Now if that’s not an encouragement to people out there, I don’t know what is.
Deidre:
Exactly, that is so much—and you see when people step out and they do this, they find God faithful. But if people step out and do this and they start relying on all this psychological stuff they’ve picked up, forget it. They are going to be distracted away from the Lord and His Word. We have to “Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him and he shall direct thy paths (Proverbs:3:5-6 [5] Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
[6] In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
). And this is kind of a standard for ministry too as well as for living the Christian life. And it doesn’t mean we’re not going to think. It’s not that we’re going to let God do whatever without us thinking, but rather that we are involving Him in everything. As we start thinking this way and walking this way ourselves, we find the Lord faithful in our own lives and we can encourage other people. Sometimes people think they have to have already arrived and be perfect Christians before they can minister to somebody else, but then there would be nobody who could do it.
Tom:
Right, God is going to use us where we are, if we are willing, if we make ourselves available. You know, we are earthen vessels. God fills us with his Holy Spirit. He gives wisdom; he gives us insight and you know as we’ve said, what God is going to give us is his way as opposed to all of these bogus (I’m being kind with that term) ideas and concepts and so on that are only destructive, because their not true. Sometimes they think what professional counselors, psychotherapists have to offer—. If they could even hope to offer this I think they would be the wealthiest people in the world and what I’m referring to is the fruit of the Spirit: Love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. They don’t have it, but God’s people, God’s Word provides it.
Deidre:
That’s right and this is what He’s working in each person and those qualities that are the fruit of the Spirit are—this is what we want to exercise when we are ministering to somebody else. We don’t want our love however to be a mushy love that is going to exclude truth. The love here would be a caring love. The agape love that would be not separated from truth so that we wouldn’t just say oh everything’s fine. No, we would if we see something that needs some correction in such deference and gentleness, we would bring forth that truth, recognizing that we ourselves are subject to the same possible sin if that’s—it may not be our sin at the time—so that when we come alongside somebody those qualities need to be there. Another—what does a person need to be like if he is going to minister to someone else in the body of Christ? First of all, besides this fruit of the Spirit I think all of us as believers are to love the Lord with our heart, soul, mind and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. So that has got to be the basic thing we are striving for, that we are aiming for to love the Lord. Some people who are biblical counselors when I’ve heard them, sound more like Job’s counselors, bringing accusations and all of that. No, it’s not that we are—if we are ministering to somebody else, that we’ve already arrived, it’s not that we have all the answers, but we want to really honor the Lord in the situation. We want to express the love of Christ in the situation which is never separated from his truth.
Tom:
You know I Corinthians 2:2-5 offers more encouragement along this line Deidre. It says, “For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. (There’s a heart of humility.) And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” Now we just have a minute or so, but I know we have some pastors listening and hopefully some elders as well, what would be your encouragement to them?
Martin:
Well I would encourage them to be confident in what they know, be confident in what they’ve lived, and be confident in the work that God will do if they will trust Him. Use His Word and know that the Holy Spirit will convict hearts and change lives for those individuals who truly want to change. So I would just encourage them to do it and doing it means that they’re not doing it, it means that the congregation is doing it because again, we are all competent to minister provided we have been saved, born again, converted. We’ve lived the life, we’ve been bruised and battered at times and yet we’ve trusted God and we can minister that to another person. So I would just encourage them to do it.
Tom:
Martin I am thinking of Bible believing pastors out there that have been convinced that only those specially trained are qualified to minister to the problems of living experienced by their church members. So they feel overwhelmed knowing that they can’t personally minister to everyone. That sets these shepherds up to refer their sheep out to what the Bible calls a hireling, a professional. Yet the Bible not only teaches how and what to minister, it commands them to do so. So the shepherd in fact, has a whole flock to help minister if he will simply trust and obey God’s Word.
