religion in the news
Gary:
You’re listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Religion in the News, plus answers to your questions in Contending for the Faith, and in Understanding the Scriptures, Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program we publish a monthly newsletter, which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order, 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #4009, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. Now back to our special revisit to the year 2000 and:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from The U.S. News and World Report, August 2000. The following are excerpts from an article entitled, “You Can’t Make This Up: More Cultural Craziness That’s Stranger than Fiction.” The Federation of Meat Shop Owners in France is offended that reporters refer to murderers as butchers since most butchers are gentle, peace loving workers. An architect in New York complained about a news report identifying the architect of a shooting spree. There is, wrote columnist Clyde Haberman of the New York Times, the ugly face of anti-architect bigotry. Because it begins with masculine sounding syllable “his” the word “history” has been banned at Stockport College in England. Also banned are the phrases, “ladies and gentlemen” offensive connotations of class and “slaving over a hot stove” which, “minimizes the horror and oppression of the slave trade.” By the way, Stockport College is in Manchester, England. A government run employment bureau in Walso, England, banned the words, “Hard-working” “reliable” and “smart” on the grounds that they discriminate against the disabled. The phrase, “commitment and a desire to succeed are vital, was banned as well, apparently for insensitivity toward lazy people.
Dave;
I don’t know how you come up with these news reports, Tom, this is incredible, but go ahead.
Tom:
What I wanted to talk about in this is on the one hand the world is going to hell in a hand basket. We have so many things that are so anti-God, anti-fairness, anti-justice, on and on.
Dave:
Anti-rational.
Tom:
Anti-rational. On the other hand we seem to be increasing our sensitivities toward one another. I know some of this is, this article, which is from The U.S. World News and Report is a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but the idea here that we would be so sensitive to such things as the butchers being worried about getting a bad name because that term is used for murderers, and so on. What’s going on here?
Dave:
Well, Tom, I don’t know, I can’t deal with this, but we see it all the time. The irony is that the same time that this supposed sensitivity for people like this, you know, history begins with “His.” Well, I don’t know what you’re going to do with “woman” for that has “man” in it.
Tom:
Or Manchester, England, the college, what are they going to do, change the name of the state?
Dave:
Right, yeah, but at the same time that we are having this nonsense, that’s what I would have to call it, 20 years ago, well, maybe not 20, 50 years ago, surely, this would be ludicrous. At the same time they can bad mouth Christians. Christians are the butt of jokes, fundamentalists—well of course we’ve got some fundamentalists Muslims who are terrorists, but nevertheless, if you are a fundamentalist you simple stand for the fundamentals of whatever you believe. And Islam does teach terrorism, it does teach murder, this is Islam itself. But a fundamentalist Christian then don’t connect them with a fundamentalist Muslim. So, Tom, part of what this is doing, you can’t be straightforward in your speech, you can’t deal with truth. You have to be politically correct, religiously correct, because we don’t want to offend anyone, and that really relates to what we were just talking about. We are so self-centered: don’t you dare offend me, don’t tell me the truth about myself. It’s in the church, tragically, and so if you earnestly contend for THE faith, if you dare to say that Jesus Christ is the only way, wait a minute! You’re offending the Muslims, you’re offending the Buddhists, and this is really the way it’s going, not only in our country but in the world.
Tom:
Yeah, and we’re talking about, not just ideas and opinions of these people over here or those people there, we’re talking about laws being made. What’s going to happen to the courts? On the one hand you have championing the rights of the homosexual; on the other hand they are putting people in prison for pedophilia. Now how do you reconcile that?
Dave:
Well, championing the rights of the homosexuals, but what about other people’s rights that the homosexuals trample upon the right not to have this flaunted in their face, the right not to have your children exposed to this sort of thing, but they can push it on society. They can push themselves and their standards on society, but if you date to stand for Christian standards, dare to stand for the truth, then you are criticized as being insensitive. Well this is the way it’s going to be; it’s going to get worse.
Tom:
Well, that’s a big question, Dave. Do you really think there’s not going to be some kind of a situation in which somebody wakes up and says, this is ridiculous, this is insane?
Dave:
No, evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse, I think it’s going to be worse. Jesus raised the question when the Son of man returns will He find the faith on the earth? No, that’s why Al Gore has said at the Presidential Prayer Breakfast, “belief in some higher power, by whatever name, in my opinion, is essential!” Isn’t that wonderful! So just so long as you believe in any higher power, some false god, but don’t dare to say that Jesus Christ is the only way—that offends people! Now we have destroyed truth, and that’s exactly where we are going, unfortunately.
Gary:
You’re listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead in this revisit to our 2000 series “Religion in the News,” plus answers to your questions in “Contending for the Faith,” and in “Understanding the Scriptures,” Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program, we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #3909, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. Now back to our special revisit to the year 2000:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from the Open Doors News Brief Magazine, November 2000. “I wasn’t a Christian then, I was born into a Muslim family, and I didn’t know much about Christianity at all. I had seen churches from the outside, but never set foot in them. I knew about Eesa, that is, Jesus, from the Qur’an. We all do, but now I actually saw him! Whether it was in a kind of dream or vision I don’t know. I grabbed my chuddar, ran out of the door and started crying. He called to me, ‘I am Jesus, I am here, come to me.’ Then he took my hand and walked with me to the church down the road. We went into the courtyard; he pointed to the church building and said, ‘This is the place where I live, then he left.’” As Sarah was speaking, an intense joy spread over her face. She took her Bible and hugged it to her heart. After a while she continued quoting: “Jesus is so lovely, I never knew that, I’ve come to love him more and more. Since the day I saw him I have gone to church, I started to read the Bible, and my life is totally changed, the Lord is so real to me. My life hasn’t become any easier, I’ve been a widow for 5 years, and I’m only 38. I still have to take care of all of my children on my own, but I have found the source of joy. He is the light and love of my life, and I never want to go back to my old life style again.” All over the Muslim world God is doing remarkable things. Time and time again we are hearing stories like Sarah’s of Muslims who have been converted through dreams and visions; often they had little or no contact with Christians. Jesus appears directly to them and as a result they commit their lives to Him.
Tom:
Dave, one of the reasons I picked this for us to look at, on the one hand, you really want to get excited about it. This is from Open Doors from Brother Andrew from his magazine, but there have been others out there—
Dave:
November 2000.
Tom:
There have been others out there who have reported the same thing.
Dave:
Campus Crusade has reported similar things.
Tom:
Right. Now, someone sent me this article, and their concern was, Is this legit, is this what—they were concerned that maybe this wasn’t Jesus, maybe this was a little too, kind of experiential, a little too subjective, even to the point of wondering whether this is truly going on or if this is of the Lord, actually.
Dave:
Yeah, a number of things really troubled me as that was being read, Tom. Jesus does not live in a church, I don’t care what church. Paul said it very clearly on Mars Hill Acts 17: “He dwelleth not in temples made with hands.” He dwells in our hearts now, the Son of God has come to live in our hearts, and God has come to live in our hearts. So, God does not live in a church, number one. Number two, I don’t know what church this was, there seemed to be a physical presence here: “he took her by the hand,” I mean, it is almost too much, led her to this church, she said she met him personally. Now, there’s not a word in there about the gospel, and the Bible says the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. She’s had an emotional experience with someone called Jesus, that she thought was Jesus—Eesa.
Tom:
Now this is an apparition.
Dave:
Yeah, yeah, right.
Tom:
And she saw his face, he is so lovely, she says.
Dave:
It’s not the Jesus that John the Revelator saw in Revelation 1; glorified at the Father’s right hand. I don’t think that you become a Christian; in fact I know you do not become a Christian through meeting an apparition that calls itself Jesus. Now, if she had said—she says she started reading her Bible, she has great joy.
Tom:
That’s good.
Dave:
Yeah, but there are many people who read their Bible and don’t understand it and don’t believe it. So, I don’t find any basis for believing that this woman is a true Christian. She may be, maybe that isn’t told in the story, but I find no comprehension of who Jesus is. He’s a wonderful, lovely person, came to her and visited her, and so forth. Did he die on the cross for her sins? Is he God, really God himself? And then she said we’ve read of this Eesa in the Qur’an. Well, the Eesa in the Qur’an, the Jesus in the Qur’an is not the Jesus of scripture. The Jesus in the Qur’an for example, did not die on the cross, someone died in his place. In fact, the Qur’an says that God put a likeness of Jesus upon one of his disciples, and the tradition, the hadith says it was Judas who died in Jesus’ place. So now, she doesn’t seem to have been delivered from the Qur’an, and she’s had an emotional experience with some apparition that called itself Jesus. I’m troubled by that.
Tom:
Well, the number one problem here is that this is incredibly subjective. How would someone listening to, or reading this testimony, how would they relate to it? Would they say, oh Jesus is appearing all around, and He’s meeting people out there or over here or there. Does this then establish a doctrine of how Jesus moves and how He worked among people? You would have real trouble, as you have been indicating, lining this up with scripture, so that’s a problem. On the other hand, could Jesus just sovereignly move into somebody’s life? I mean we’ve talked about people, we’ve written about people who met Jesus on a drug trip intervening in their lives, saving them from death and turning them around. That’s very subjective as well.
Dave:
That is, and they didn’t become believers, but something happened on this drug trip, whatever it was, that caused them to rethink their lives and they were then led to Christ through the gospel. But Paul writes of those who love His appearing, and John writes, 1 John 3, “When we see Him we will be like him, we will see him as he is. It doesn’t appear what we shall be but we know when He appears.” But now, what is this talking about? It seems that the Bible teaches an appearing of Christ in the future to all believers at once. We’re having appearances of Jesus all over the world to individuals. I don’t believe it’s biblical. Now if this is a dream then I could accept that, something happens in a dream, it’s not literally Jesus there, and He’s speaking to them, I believe He can speak to them in a dream. But they’re going to have to know the gospel; it will have to lead them to the gospel. Even Peter, when he had this sheet let down from heaven in Acts 10, he didn’t know what it meant. God had to speak to him with a voice and to tell him, but there again, this is not the gospel. So, I would have great caution and concern about this event.
Gary:
You’re listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come in this revisit to our 2000 series, Religion in the News, plus answers to your questions in Contending for the Faith, and in Understanding the Scriptures, Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program, we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #3809, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. Now back to our special revisit to the year 2000. Now:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from the Religious News Service, August 2000. Many people assume the Bible has just one message about sex: don’t do it! But a careful reading of the Holy Scriptures reveals a much more nuance, complex approach to physical intimacy. When I studied the Bible, I was surprised to discover a much more positive view of sexuality than I had ever known, says Debra Hafner, a former sexologist who was now studying to be a Unitarian Universalist minister in New York City. It wasn’t what I was taught in Sunday school, growing up. Indeed, more and more people are turning to the Bible, and their own religious traditions for help with sexual relationships. Last year, Rabbi Schmuley Boteach wrote Kosher Sex: A Recipe for Passion and Intimacy, which draws it’s lessons from the Bible. In a similar vein, a recent book about sex aimed at Mormons has been flying off the shelves. Between Husband and Wife Gospel Perspectives are Marital Intimacy, by Stephen Lamb and Douglas Friendly, has sold more than 70,000 copies, even outselling, Standing for Something, the recent book by Gordon B. Hinkley, president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in church owned book stores. Though the book is liberally sprinkled with churchy advice from LDS President and apostles, Lamb, a Salt Lake City obstetrician, and Brindley, a Brigham Young University church history professor, also offered candid advice on many sexual topics. The overall message is clear, even revolutionary for some Mormons. God intends married couples to enjoy sexual intimacy. That idea began in the Bible.
Tom:
Dave, one of my least favored things about what we do here in the ministry, is that we look at some of the trends that are going on in the church, and because it is influencing many Christians we have to address them; things that we would rather not address or would rather not get into. But this is a good example here, who wants to talk about this, except that just on the basis of what Gary read, this is an item in the church? There are more books, I was just at CBA, their convention, and you just find everything there of the world, in the world. I mean, is the Bible a book on sex? Is this something that we ought to be writing about with basically biblical support?
Dave:
I suppose we could go back to Adam and Eve, and God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, as will people will often say, and I don’t know that He had to give them a course in sex; I think it comes fairly naturally. The Bible does say marriage is honorable in all and the bed undefiled. The whoremongers and adulterers God will judge. So the Bible does address this in some ways, but the Bible is not a “how to” book on sex. And I think when you get involved in that sort of thing, you have strayed from the scriptures, you begin to occupy your mind with thoughts that are not profitable, and I don’t think should be aired in public, and so forth. But now it’s in our schools. We have to teach our kids about sex, and of course let them know that there is an alternative lifestyle, homosexual or lesbian, and maybe they should experiment to see whether that’s the way they should go, and so forth. No, I think there is something built into human beings by God as there is in animals. We have animal bodies, it’s horrible to admit, but we do, we are not descendents of animals, we are not related to them by some evolutionary chain. But we have certain fleshly passions, and they are to be utilized in a marriage relationship and in a marriage relationship only. And when the Bible talks about marriage, it does not talk about two men and two women. The very first commandment God gives, and probably we’ve talked about this in the past, but it’s helpful to remember it. The first commandment wasn’t “Thou shalt love the Lord with all thy heart,” but there’s a commandment before that. Well the commandment before that was, “Don’t eat of this tree,” but that wasn’t the first commandment, there was a commandment before that. The very first commandment God gave man and woman when He created them was, “Be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth.” And homosexuality and lesbianism is a direct disobedience to that command. It is a defiance of God who made man and woman for one another. If everyone became a homosexual, or lesbian that would be the end of the human race, they don’t procreate. I don’t know how you can have gay pride parades about something that would end the human race if everyone adopted it and it would spread disease, which is unnatural. So, I think every person recognizes certain natural instincts and a love relationship that there ought to be between husband and wife, and I don’t think the Bible has to go into—it doesn’t go into great details about this.
Tom:
Right, but you read the material that’s out there, just from the titles of books and the people behind it, all of a sudden it takes a psychological edge to it, that these are man’s greatest needs and you’re never going to have a great relationship with your wife, if you know, you’re sexually into it the way they prescribe according to this psychologist or that psychologist. That’s what the heartbreak here is really, this is worldly stuff, [and] this is not what the Bible is about.
Dave:
We need is a love relationship like the love that is portrayed for us in 1st Corinthians 13. And when there is love between husband and wife there will be a proper relationship. It’s when one person wants to benefit their pleasure at the expense of the other, or they are thinking selfishly of themselves, that’s when we have problems. But if there is a love of God, a love of Christ in our hearts, husbands and wives will have a wonderful relationship.
Gary:
You’re listening to a special addition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead in this revisit to our 2000 series, “Religion in the News,” plus answers to your questions in “Contending for the Faith,” and in “Understanding the Scriptures,” Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program we publish a monthly newsletter, which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #3709, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. Now back to our special revisit to the year 2000.
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from the Charisma News Service, August 2000, with a headline: “Spontaneous Prayer Guerilla Movement Set to Challenge Supreme Court Ban.” Christians across the country are being asked to join a spontaneous public recital of the Lord’s Prayer, to defy a ban on high school prayer. The guerilla action is being endorsed by two groups following the June ruling by the Supreme Court that a Texas school district’s policy of allowing voluntary pre-game prayer was unconstitutional. Now Christian students and spectators are being challenged to join in saying the Lord’s Prayer after the playing of the National Anthem. “Of course we know that the American Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU, will go berserk,” said Donald Wildmon, President of the American Family Association, or AFA. “But, on the other hand, there is no way the Supreme Court can stop this because it is simply individuals participating on their own, without any leader.” The AFA is promoting the stand through its “Action Alert” mailing, and its 200 strong radio network. “The Constitution says that Congress shall not prohibit the free exercise of religion,” Wildmon says. “This is a form of that free exercise, albeit a symbolic one.” The “spontaneous prayer” effort is also being advocated by the leaders of We Still Pray, a movement begun by a group of pastors and Christians leaders in Asheville, North Carolina. A week ago, they drew around 35,000 people to a public prayer rally that caused gridlock in city streets for hours. Since then, they have been contacted by groups wanting to start similar efforts in other parts of the country.
The Lord’s Prayer recitation was “not in defiance of the Supreme Court,” said Wendell Runion, owner of a Christian radio station in Asheville, who helped organize last week’s rally. He told The Ashville Citizen Times: “If the fans break out in spontaneous prayer, there is no Supreme Court ruling against that.” Paul Ott, a Mississippi radio host, who has spread the word about the prayer stand in five states on his radio show, told the Associated Press that participants should avoid a legal confrontation. “We don’t think this is breaking the law, but if it is...I don’t think they’re going to take thousands of people to jail.” David Ingebretson of the ACLU questioned the legality of the approach. “It seems to be that a planned spontaneous prayer cannot be spontaneous, and it violates the court’s ruling,” he told the AP. “If this planned, spontaneous prayer happens, it forces everyone there to hear that prayer or to participate.”
Tom:
Dave, this article seems to be indicative of, seems to me at least, problems on both sides, we’re in a day and an age in which there are certain things that we ought to be able to do that we can’t do. On the other hand, there are things that we do sometimes thinking that this would please the Lord. We have a prayer group that’s shut down traffic for a while. We’ve had, not just from this article, but indications of kids being bold on their campus and anointing the school windows with oil and burying prayer stakes on the football field, too.
Dave:
Tom, maybe you need to explain what was the problem to begin with, what was the Supreme Court ruling about? Was this the prayer with the football team, or was it public prayer before an athletic event, what was it?
Tom:
Yes, that’s what it was. It began with teams having group prayer before a game. They were statements by the Texas government saying, no you can’t do that, it’s not constitutional. Then it went to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court reinforced this idea that you could not have what they believe would be forced or non spontaneous prayer, organized prayer through a secular institution.
Dave:
Yeah, well it seems to be ridiculous because it ought to be up to the individuals and the individual team. If a team wanted to pray together, a number of the players wanted to pray together—
Tom:
Yeah, but what about the atheists?
Dave;
Well then, let them cover their ears, or go somewhere else. You see, it’s not being forced, but I don’ think that a person should force it upon atheists. So we don’t want the atheist to pray with us, they have no God to pray to, so it just would seem to be a matter of common sense and courtesy, not something that the Supreme Court of a state would get involved in. And then, I would have to agree with the ACLU, at least to this extent, planned prayer can’t be spontaneous. There’s not a sudden spontaneous outburst of prayer when you have planned to do it. And then what is the point? Suppose all the atheists tried to out shout you? Everybody in the stands or a few thousand people in the stands are praying the Lord’s Prayer, and supposing a lot of the atheists try to out shout you? What’s the point? What’s the point of trying to do this? You want to pray, pray, prayer is between the individual and God, and it doesn’t make it any better if a lot of people in the stands are quoting the Lord’s Prayer. Furthermore, the Lord’s Prayer is not a prayer to pray from my understanding of it. The disciples said, Lord, teach us to pray, and Jesus didn’t say recite this prayer. Jesus said, “After this manner, pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven….” and so forth. So, the Lord’s Prayer was something that Jesus gave to his disciples as a pattern of prayer, not to be recited by rote over and over and over, and the more times you would recite it the more point points you would get with God, or whatever. But I think that is part of the idea that people have about the Lord’s Prayer. So, I’m sorry I would not, and maybe some of the radio stations that were on or participating in this, I don’t see the point of stopping traffic and chanting the Lord’s Prayer in a public place. I think Jesus said, “When you pray, go into your closet, talk to your Father in secret.” And I think this is turning prayer into something that prayer was not intended to be.
Tom:
Dave, I think that’s the heart of our concern here. These are articles that come down through news service and we picked them up. It gives us an idea of what’s going on throughout the country. But our concern here, as it is with every issue that we look at: Is this according to God’s Word, is this how the scriptures would have us go about things? So, if these things are consistent with God’s Word, then we’re for it. But if they somehow corrupt, they are pervert or pushed something beyond the envelope, as it were, with regard to prayer, then it’s an exercise in futility no matter how seemingly righteous it might be. God’s not going to hear, it’s not going to be effective it’s not going to please Him, and that’s our concern.
Gary:
You’re listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come in this revisit to our 2000 series, “Religion in the News,” plus answers to your questions in “Contending for the Faith.” And in “Understanding the Scriptures,” Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program, we publish a monthly newsletter, which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials, including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk ask for Program #3609, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. Now, back to our special revisit to the year 2000:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from World Magazine August 2000. “‘The Bible teaches that God helps those who help themselves’ was a statement in a survey by pollster George Barna, on American religious beliefs. Seventy-five percent of Americans, including more than 40% of born again Christians agreed with the unbiblical statement which Mr. Barna said exposes American’s belief that God is merely our assistant, not our foundation.”
Tom:
Dave, this is an interesting survey, this statement on this survey. It is to me, especially because I remember as somebody who was being witnessed to before I came to know the Lord. I like to get into debates, even if I didn’t know what I was talking about. When someone said—well the Bible says this, I figure I’m going to quote them Bible as well. So the verse that I came up with was “God helps those who help themselves,” that was my Bible verse. So they challenged me, they said wait, that’s not in the Bible. I said, yes it is I know it’s in the Bible—I mean, I knew I heard it somewhere. So I spent a long time, not looking in the Bible, just trying to figure out different ways that I could get to, you know, famous quotations of this guy and that guy. Well, I did find it and I found it in Poor Richard’s Almanac. This is the gospel in a sense according to Benjamin Franklin, but it’s not in the Bible.
Dave:
Well, it wouldn’t be in the Bible. Let’s just analyze it for a moment, “God helps those who help themselves,” and as Barna says it sounds like He’s our helper, rather than our foundation— those who help themselves. In other words, I have in mind some goal, and instead of just asking God to do it all for me, I’ve got to put out some energy. Nothing about God’s will, nothing about what God may have in mind, but I’m running the show, and God is perfectly willing to come alongside and help me, but He just wants me to do a little of the work, too. But in the final analysis, what I want is going to happen. That’s what this says. God helps those who help themselves. But God is so great beyond our comprehension. This is the God who created the universe out of nothing. Who always is, always has been isn’t even the way to say it. He always is and to think that I want my puny will to be blessed by Him? So Jesus hasn’t even begun to pray until you say not my will but thine be done. And that’s just the opposite of this saying.
Tom:
Dave this says 75% of Americans, and then it breaks it down to 40% of born again Christians, but this is kind of our American heritage. I mentioned Benjamin Franklin, but we could also take Thomas Jefferson, many of our founding fathers were deists and they believe that God set it all like a clock, He wound it up and set it on its course, and now it’s our job to take care of everything. So, God doesn’t get involved in our lives; we have to really do it ourselves. Well, do you think this 75%-is this the flesh or a natural attitude, or is it part of our heritage? We love—go into any book store—we love self-help books, and this is our bent.
Dave:
Well, let’s take the other side of the coin for a moment, Tom. There is some truth, something worth while in it. In other words, I shouldn’t be lazy. “God get me a job,” but I’m not going to go out and look for one. I’m not going to lift a finger to do anything. I don’t think God is going to honor that either. So, there is some common sense, wisdom in this. On the other hand, it’s not what I’m trying to do. I should say, Lord, would you guide me? First of all, what job do you want me to have? Where do you want me to work? Where do you want me to live? What do you want me to do? Paul puts it like this in Colossians 1:29—he’s talking about God’s purpose, His plan and he says, “Whereunto I labor, striving according to His working which worketh in me mightily.” Or you can go to Philippians 3, where he says, “Work out your own salvation.” Now that’s not working for salvation, but the salvation that He has given us, now we’re to work it out in our lives. “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who works in you both to will and to do His good will.” So there must be a cooperation between me and God. I’m not just going to sit down in a chair and God is going to feed me, do everything, I must be—well, you remember the servant of Abraham who went out to find a bride for Isaac, he said, “I being in the way the Lord led me.” In other words, he started putting one foot in front of another and he headed out to where he was supposed to go, and then he trusted God.
Tom:
It’s hard to guide somebody standing still, got to be a little movement here.
Dave:
Right, so there is some little wisdom in there, we’ll give Ben Franklin credit for that, but the whole purpose should be of our lives to know God’s will, to know Him and know His will, and then, Jesus said, “Follow me.” He doesn’t mean he’s going to carry us upon a stretcher, we’re going to have to put some effort into it as well, but we want Him to be the leader, not our plan to be the one, but then He has to bless.
Tom:
Dave, this goes back to what we mentioned earlier in our first segment. We are going to go through trials and tribulations, these are for our growth, for our development, for our encouragement to trust and lean upon Him. Forty percent of born again Christians, how they can, you know, unless they didn’t really didn’t understand the question.
Dave:
See the point is Tom, as I recall the quotation [was] “the Bible teaches.” Now it wasn’t that this was a good idea, you know, but this is what the Bible teaches. Obviously, a lot of born again Christians do not know the Bible, because they never read that in there.
