religion in the news
Gary:
You’re listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come in this revisit to our 2000 series: “Religion in the News,” plus answers to your questions in “Contending for the Faith.” And in “Understanding the Scriptures,” Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program, we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials or to get a copy of today’s broadcast write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk ask for program #1509, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. We continue now with our special revisit to the year 2000. Now:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from the Jewish World Review of March 29, 2000 with a headline: “Sin Anyone?” Americans are the most religious people in the developed world. More than 90% tell pollsters that they believe in God, 43% say they attend religious services at least once a week, and 58% report that religion is very important in their lives. But what does it really mean? When every one from Hilary Clinton to Ralph Reed professes to be motivated by religious values, can those values have any identifiable content? And when the society at large enshrines tolerance and reluctance to make moral judgments as the highest virtues, what can they be hearing at those weekly services? James Davison Hunter answers that question in the spring edition of The Public Interest and he concludes that at this moment in history the secular world view is influencing the churches far more than the churches are influencing the surrounding society. In particular, Hunter examines the moral education curricula at churches and synagogues around the nation. And he finds that the old categories of sin, repentance and redemption are out and the therapeutic language of self esteem and self love are in. Hunter cites Dr. James Dobson head of Focus on the Family as well as a professional psychologist as an example of this melding of psychological beliefs into Christian moral education. As Christian educators go, Dobson is quite orthodox. Pre-marital sex for example is a no, no. Nor does Dobson slight the traditional teachings on marriage, fidelity, honesty and so on. But the very first reason Dobson offers for refraining from pre-marital sex is the risk of venereal disease and he instructs adolescents that the primary task of their developing years is to acquire “good” self-esteem. Another popular evangelical writer, Kenneth Erickson is even more in sync with popular psychology. While emphasizing God’s love, Erickson focuses most of his attention on building self-esteem, understanding one’s inner child and eschewing perfectionism and shame-based morality. Hunter explains while he writes of the importance of forgiveness, the problem of sin is all but absent. The Rabbi at a large reform congregation in Manhattan was asked whether theological concepts like sin are used to instruct the young. “Sin isn’t one of our issues,” he replied. My guess is that in 12 years of religious school, our kids will never hear the word. The principal of a Catholic school in San Antonio, Texas expressed a similar view on sin, “Oh no, that kind of language would not relate to them anyway. When I was growing up, I might have personally responded to someone if they said hey, this is a sin. Today though, I don’t think young people would respond to that. The most you could say to them is: ‘That is not allowed.’” The triumph of the therapeutic has left millions of Americans without the mental equipment to make moral choices and when sin does rear its ugly head; our national response both secular and religious is to call in the shrinks.
Tom:
Dave, this as Gary mentioned is from the Jewish World Review and this is Mona Sharon indicting in some cases evangelicals, but particularly the religious and she’s right on target.
Dave:
Yes, I would have to agree with her. It’s a sad commentary and what is happening, you know we referred to it a little bit earlier. I am spiritual, but not religious by religious meaning, and some people would even say I’m religious, but it means we don’t conform to any dogmas now. Now that’s fine. Don’t conform to the dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church, or the Mormons or of anybody else. But God has some rules. And He has laid it out very clearly, but the tragedy is that we have this idea of being broadminded. We’ve got to build up self esteem and it’s tragic that Dr. Dobson for example, (this is accurate what this person says that we abstain from pre-marital sex, pre-sex, or what ever, the major reason is to avoid the disease—
Tom:
The consequences of sin.
Dave:
—we might contact rather than moral obedience to the God who created us and to His laws and to His Word. But, people are not moved by that, so maybe Dr. Dobson realizes we’ve got to be strategic in the way we present these things because as the—was it a Jewish person later on who said that we might have been moved by that when I was a boy, but not anymore.
Tom:
That was the principal of the Catholic school. The Rabbi said my guess is that in 12 years of religious school our kids will never hear the word.
Dave:
Yes, so now we’ve got to, we’ve become so—I love that last paragraph—it’s so accurate. We’ve become so psychotherapeutically oriented that this is the way we now appeal to people. But that is not the way God appeals to people and we know that psychotherapy doesn’t work anyway. There has to be some fear of God and of eternal hell as the consequence, not just some disease that we might get in this life and this is what is missing, tragically in our society and in our churches.
Tom:
Dave this article seems to be to me a reflection of 2 Timothy 3. First of all, that’s the only place that I know of that self esteem is mentioned in the Word of God and mark my words in the last days there shall come perilous times, men will be lovers of themselves and then a little later it talks about having a form of godliness but denying the power there of. This is what this is all about.
Dave:
The Bible is an amazing book isn’t it. It lays it all out ahead of time and Tom, once again it brings us back to the very title of our program and the very purpose that we have: search the Scriptures daily. We are not trying to put our ideas over, we are not trying to present the latest philosophy, we are not trying to present the latest from the academic world or even from the scientific world. Man has not changed since the Garden of Eden and the basic problem is still man’s relationship with God. We’re rebels against God, so we’re not trying to offer our ideas. If man is to be made right; if God really created him, which we believe and the Bible says and if the problem is man’s relationship with God, then only God can solve this problem and He is the one we must heed when He tells us the solution and that solution is only through Jesus Christ, who is God and became a man, who paid the penalty for our sins on the cross. That’s the message that we’ve got to preach. Paul said to Timothy, preach the Word. Instead of that we are preaching the latest psychotherapeutic techniques because we think that will appeal to people today, modern man or modern children more than the Word of God and that is a mistake.
Tom:
Dave, twice I believe in Proverbs we have the Scripture: “There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end there of are the ways of death.” We pick and choose all these things that have to do with man’s ways or seducing spirits or doctrines of demons and it’s destructive at best.
Dave:
A lot of ways that lead to death. We are all taking different roads to get to the same place, they say. But there’s only one way that leads to life. Jesus Christ is THE way.
Gary:
You’re listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come in this revisit to our 2000 series: “Religion in the News,” plus answers to your questions in “Contending for the Faith.” And in “Understanding the Scriptures,” Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program, we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials or to get a copy of today’s broadcast write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk ask for program #1409, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. We continue now with our special revisit to the year 2000. Now:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from Dr. Joyce Brothers’ advice column as it appeared last January in the Los Angeles Times. Dear Dr. Brothers: I’m a very religious person. I wasn’t always. It took me awhile to find my god, but he’s with me now every day. My two children, both in their 20s and my husband all kid me about my religion. Unfortunately, I’ve been unable to make them “see the light.” I don’t know what more I can do to win them over. Do you have any ideas? NX.
Dear NX: Personally I believe the best way to win anyone over is by setting an example in your own daily life. Part of this involves respecting their right to believe in whatever way seems right to them. Religion, even religion in families is a very personal matter and I don’t think anyone should be forced to accept any particular creed. As long as your family members are good and considerate of others, as long as they are loving human beings, I wouldn’t be concerned. I don’t think people should ever be teased about their religion however. You should let them know this and then drop the subject. It isn’t so important what a person’s faith is. If that person’s faith is strong, it’s going to help that individual cope with the many problems in life. Faith in God is comforting. If a person translates this faith into action in his daily life, it helps to center the individual, helps him to know what’s meaningful and helps him to know what isn’t. It helps the person to cope with anger, frustration and despair. It serves as a guide for a good life. You are fortunate.
Tom:
Dave this is Dr. Joyce Brothers. She has her own ideas and these are very psychological. Some of these are very common sense and they’re fine, but others missed what faith is completely.
Dave:
Well she’s offering her gospel. She is giving a definitive declaration of faith and of religion or whatever and of one’s relationship with God and in fact she’s saying it doesn’t matter. Whatever God you believe in, so long as you are a nice person, a good person, but the Bible says there are none good, no not one! So in being broad-minded she in fact is being narrow-minded. Because she is saying well it’s not right for you to say there is only one way, Jesus was wrong when he said I am the way, the truth, and the life. She says there are many ways, so don’t push that on me. Now, we don’t force someone, but we ought to give them the opportunity and we ought to tell them the truth.
Tom:
And your life ought to reflect your belief. That should be a witness.
Dave:
Absolutely, but she’s saying your life is what is important, not what you believe. On the contrary, Paul, the very first thing he says is when he talks about his life in 2 Timothy 3, he says you have known my doctrine, manner of life, faith, patience and so forth. So doctrine comes first. I live out of what I believe. Now she is saying it doesn’t really matter what you believe, so long as you live a nice life.
Tom:
Well faith is not faith in God or faith in truth….
Dave:
Well it’s faith in something, whatever, so long as you have a faith and that Tom, is tragic. Because if you give that gospel, that’s really Satan’s gospel. I’m sorry Dr. Brothers, but this is what Jesus talked about. He said well, way back in Proverbs: There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the ends thereof are the ways of death. That’s what the Bible says. So you’re saying so long as it seems right to you, that’s okay. Jesus said strive to enter at the straight gate. Straight is the gate, narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it. For broad is the road that leads to destruction and many there be that go in there at. So Dr. Brothers, and she’s not the only one, [there are] many others. It’s popular today.
Tom:
Oh this is popular psychology.
Dave:
This is the popular idea. Now you’ve got your truth, I’ve got my truth. If it feels good for you that’s okay, don’t hassle me about it. Well, that is the broad road that leads to destruction. That is the way that seems right unto a man and the end there of are the ways of death. Now who are we dealing with? Ultimately we have to face God. Well then why don’t we find out what God has to say? In other words for me to impose my views—what they’re saying is don’t you impose your views on me. Yes, but you are imposing your views on God. You are saying that God is going to have to go along with whatever I come up with—that is a great delusion. So what we’re saying is that there is one God, one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus and He has given us His Word and He’s given us (Paul calls it the gospel of God). Then let’s find out what God has to say—in other words—Dr. Brothers wouldn’t it have been so much better if you had said well let’s see what God has to say about this. We won’t force ourselves on anyone but we will all go to God and to His Word and see what He has to say. When Jesus said I am THE way, THE truth, THE life, no man comes to the Father but by me. Then in view of the fact that Jesus is God, who came to this earth to become a man and die for our sins and He loves us so much—doesn’t want us to perish—maybe we ought to give heed to what He has to say. Let’s all turn to Him instead of to our own ideas.
Tom:
But the problem Dave is that what God says doesn’t agree with what so many others say.
Dave:
That’s right.
Tom:
And if we are going to appeal to the masses; if we are going to try and find some common denominator; something that will bring everybody together; we just can’t have one viewpoint.
Dave:
So we all go to hell together and that’s not going to help Tom.
Tom:
Yes. The delusion is—the mind set is no they are all going to end up okay.
Dave:
Tom, all I can say is—it doesn’t make sense. We’re not only trying to be biblical we want to be rational. And it doesn’t make sense that I am going to launch out into eternity and I am going to tell God well this is the way it looked to me and this is what I decided upon. So God you are going to have to accept my standards. That doesn’t make sense! Now either God exists or He doesn’t exist and as we look at this universe you put a couple of chemicals together in a test tube, you get a constant reaction, it always works the same. Gravity works. You don’t jump up in the air and sometimes you just don’t come down, you just keep going. I mean that would be a horrible world. So from everything that we can see God is very particular about the physical laws that He has imposed upon this universe. He’d be just as particular about the way to Heaven. And to please Him and serve Him we better find out what He has to say. That’s all we’re standing for.
Tom:
Right.
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from the Rocky Ford Colorado Gazette with a headline: “Five RF Pastors Switching Pulpits Sunday.” “For a variety of reasons, Christianity is divided into many denominations. This Sunday as a sign of their faith in the same Lord, five local congregations will exchange pastors for a day. Looking forward to preaching at St. Peters Catholic Church, Pastor John Knight, pastor of First Baptist Church commented: ‘We are unifying our churches through service to each other. I thought it would give us a different perspective on each other’s congregations recognizing the similarities rather than just the differences.’ ‘I think we are likely to increase our understanding of the gospel to the extent we listen to the Spirit’s voice through those that have some different understandings rather than only listening to those who already agree with us,’ said John Zimmerman, pastor of Rocky Ford Mennonite Church who will be preaching at First Baptist Church. ‘And anyway, while denominations have some important differences, the reality is that many of the distinctions that seemed important in past generations don’t seem so significant anymore. The lines between denominations are fading.’ Other pastors involved in the exchange will John Farley, Pastor of St. Peter’s Catholic Church who will preach at First Christian Church; Carol Isaacson-Hull, pastor of First Christian Church who will preach at the Church of the Nazarene and Bill Seal, pastor of First Church of the Nazarene who will preach at Rocky Ford Mennonite Church.
Tom:
Dave I know a lot of people who are listening to this are thinking well that’s great. Here we are really coming together demonstrating that we are all Christian and that’s going to be a great witness to the world. But there are some big problems here.
Dave:
Well Tom, I guess we’ve talked about this before. The source of truth is God’s Word, not what somebody says. Again, the Bereans searched the Scriptures to check Paul out. You don’t hear anything like that here. Well we’re going to listen—well we’re not going to just listen to those who agree with us—let’s hear from those who disagree with us. There’s no thought of discernment whether what these people who disagree with us, whether what they teach is right or wrong according to the Bible. But we’re just going to get in one another’s pulpits and were going to show that we are all Christians. Well we have Catholics involved here; not just Catholics, but there are apostate Protestant churches. Apostate for what reason? For example if we went to downtown Seattle, Washington you have First Baptist Church downtown Seattle, Washington. The pastor is Romney R. Romney—
Tom:
Senior Pastor.
Dave:
Senior pastor and he has written a book: Journey to Inner Space. They are still offering it even though we exposed it way back in The Seduction of Christianity. And Journey to Inner Space: Finding God in Us and the man is into finding God in everybody. Everybody’s okay, God is in everybody. And it’s good to practice Yoga and he would accept Buddhism and Hinduism and so forth. Now I would say that man has some very serious heresies—denial of the narrowness of the gospel that Jesus taught. He said straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life; few there be that find it. We’re going to change pulpits? There are some very serious doctrinal differences, but when it comes to Catholicism, I mean we’ve gone over this I guess, I don’t know how much we’ve talked about Catholicism, but their Jesus is a wafer. The Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again and is in a resurrected and glorified body at the Father’s right hand, but no, they say He is still being offered. Jesus said it is finished. The writer of Hebrews says by one sacrifice he is perfected forever and that there’s no more sacrifice for sin, but the Catholic Church says no Christ is still being offered and if you dare to say when you take the bread and the cup this is merely a remembrance of a sacrifice completed on the Cross 1900 years ago and you deny that this is an ongoing sacrifice that Christ is literally be emulated, that’s their terminology. He is being offered for sins and this is a propitiatory sacrifice, anathema to you! So we have a very serious difference and it is so serious that the Catholics are forbidden to partake of Protestant Communion and they forbid Protestants to partake of the Mass.
Tom:
Right, so that won’t be happening in this exchange of pulpits. But Dave there’s another irony here and that is you have a pastor of a Mennonite Church. Now this man must not know his history because Menno-Simons—
Dave:
Well, they were persecuted by the Catholics.
Tom:
Absolutely, and he was a former Catholic priest. Why did he reject Roman Catholicism and then he was persecuted for it and what has been resolved today to push that aside?
Dave:
Tom they were called Anabaptists. We go way back. Why were they called Anabaptists, like a-theists? That they were against baptism. No, they were against infant baptism. And these were all Catholics who had been baptized as infants and when they came to faith in Christ, they got saved, they were born again through the gospel, and then they realized that baptism was for believers, so they were baptized again. And they were persecuted and killed, not only by the Catholics, but also by the Protestants, because Lutherans as well believed in the efficacy of infant baptism—baptismal regeneration, so there are some serious differences here and you can’t just overlook them.
Tom:
Well, that’s the question Dave. Have these things been resolved or are we just brushing aside biblical truth for the sake of unity.
Dave:
Right, they have not been resolved and the biblical truth is being ignored and now we are just going to say that we are all united. And that is a dangerous delusion.
We continue now with our special revisit to the year 2000. Now:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from the San Diego Union Tribune with a headline: “Class Achieves Harmony with Feng Shui.” The scent of strawberry incense wafts through the air. New age music fills the room and a soft light glows from the lamps on 32 cloth covered tables. A small electric waterfall generates a soothing stream-like trickle. Gauzy green curtains fastened with green ribbon hang from the windows and delicate wind chimes catch an occasional breeze. This is not the interior of a spa, café, or meditation room. Rather, this is the setting of Vince Riveral’s 6th grade classroom at Keeler Middle School in San Diego’s Lomita neighborhood. Riveral is among a small but growing number of educators who have turned to the ancient Chinese practice of Feng Shui to bring peace, prosperity and perhaps a bit of cliché California style to the classroom. The practice of living in harmony with one’s surroundings focuses on harnessing positive “Chi,” or energy and dispelling negative “chi.” The arrangement of furniture, the placement of a window or door, the addition of a mirror and a careful selection of colors can help promote better health, wealth and relationships according to the practice that dates back 3000 years in China. Feng Shui has become trendy with architects, interior designers, spiritual seekers and celebrities. And as Americans build stronger economic, cultural, and political ties to Asia, mainstream society has borrowed more and more of the ancient Asian disciplines. “So it was only a matter of time before Feng Shui made it to the often chaotic public school system,” said Shelly Degan a psychic and Feng Shui consultant who’s new course “Feng Shui for Teachers” will be offered at Southwestern College this summer. I have Feng Shui-ed several of San Diego’s schools Degan said. What we have found is that when Feng Shui is introduced to a classroom the energy is better and the kids are learning. They are retaining the information. Our environment truly affects us and although they can’t point to any studies, both Riveral and Principal Mary Louise Martin are convinced that the introduction of Feng Shui to the school setting has improved academic achievement. Sixth grade student Gregory Simon agrees. At 12, he is a Feng Shui convert. “I feel more relaxed here than in any other classrooms,” he said. “I just work better.”
Tom:
Dave, Feng Shui—how does it work?
Dave:
Well, probably it doesn’t work in most cases. Before we get to that, what concerns me a great deal, well I hate to use the term but it makes me just a little bit angry—this is occultism. Yet it is being brought into the classroom. You can’t bring Christianity in, you can bring in North American Indian witchcraft down in Lassen County, Northern California, they are putting up totem poles now and children are celebrating the Indian spirits that are guiding them and protecting them and so forth. Feng Shui is based upon the same idea that the ki or chi—you find some of it in the martial arts, it’s involved with acupuncture, it’s the idea that the dao— this universal force is in all of us.
Tom:
Right, the ying and yang.
Dave:
Right, and you need to realign it and so forth. It’s one of many theories. Now, first of all it is nonsense—
Tom:
Well Dave, let me just interject here. The idea here that God is not personal, that it is a force out there, that he is a mind. This relates back to the mind sciences, what we talked about in our first article.
Dave:
Right, but it isn’t true, it’s nonsense. On the other hand, you could have a placebo effect. The article says they don’t have any studies—no proof, no scientific evidence, but they all “feel” that it works. Well this is like the placebo effect. You give a sugar pill to somebody and even it may stop their headache or whatever—
Tom:
Well certainly the classroom was nicer after doing all these things to it than it was prior to that so—
Dave:
But this is occultism, so you’re either going to have nothing will happen or it’s in their imagination, you have a placebo effect, or you could now begin to believe in this force and that will open the door to the occult. As an example, we’ve mentioned Phil Jackson, former coach of the Chicago Bulls, now coaching the L.A. Lakers and Horace Grant tells how when he was with the Bulls there in Chicago he would walk into a locker room and it would be clouding with clouds of incense. Phil Jackson is driving out the evil spirits, so the team will be focused. Now if you tried to bring the Gospel, you know impose the Gospel on your team—that is not to say there are not some NBA Christian coaches who can share the gospel individually, but now he is imposing this on the whole team. His North American Indian witchcraft beliefs and so forth, his Zen Buddhist beliefs—they call him the Zen Master in a lot of publicity about how Zen is going to help the Lakers and so forth. Now we are bringing this into the public schools. This is an occult idea from the East, from Eastern mysticism. You can’t bring Christianity in—oh that’s a religion. Ah, but this is culture now. So we have misunderstanding and I’m concerned that it is opening the door for a lot of people to enter into the occult. This is a first step, then they will get in deeper.
Tom:
Well Dave from our perspective this does have an interesting ending—something that we would agree with. This program was shut down, but it wasn’t shut down for the right reasons. It was shut down because they had people from the fire district code enforcement officials got wind of what was going on and nothing they did in there was up to code so they cleaned it out.
Dave:
Yes, as you say for the wrong reasons.
Tom:
Right.
Gary:
You’re listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead in this revisit to our 2000 series: “Religion in the News,” plus answers to your questions in “Contending for the Faith.” And in “Understanding the Scriptures,” Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of God’s salvation. In addition to this radio program, we publish a monthly newsletter which we make available free of charge. We also produce and distribute a wide variety of teaching materials including books in print, e-book and audio book formats, CD’s, DVD’s and other items to encourage the serious study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials or to get a copy of today’s broadcast write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number 800-937-6638, that’s 800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk ask for program #1109, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. We’ll repeat this information at the end of the program. We continue now with our special revisit to the year 2000. Now:
RELIGION IN THE NEWS
A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media. This week’s item is from Sun News under the headline: “Christian Polygamists Cite Biblical Justification.” Steven Butt lives in Utah with three wives and five children ministering to nearly 1,000 people around the country who call themselves Christian Polygamists. Unlike the estimated 25,000 to 35,000 polygamists living in the West who traces their roots to Mormonism, but at his Protestant peers who say that plural marriage comes straight from the Old Testament. We believe that plural marriage is allowed for in the Bible to meet practical real needs and this should be acknowledged by the Christian church,” Butt said. He points to passages that say David, Solomon, and other patriarchs had many wives. “Obviously polygamy can’t be something that’s immoral if God allowed it with these people with whom He showed so much favor.” To spread the word, Butt and his family moved to Southern Utah recently and bought Circleville’s original Mormon chapel. They plan to start the first Be Free Patriarchal Church in this town of about 300 settled by Mormon pioneers in 1864. They intend to take their message to the polygamist families living in Southern Utah and expand into California, the southeast, and then abroad to countries with polygamist cultures. It will be easier to convert cultural polygamists to Christianity, Butt figures than to convert mainstream Christians to accept plural marriage. “Many practioners rejected by their churches for abandoning monogamy are trying to reconcile their lifestyle and their faith,” said Dave Hutchison who organized a Phoenix-based group called “Liberated Christians.” “You have a lot of Christians feeling this way, and then feeling guilty they are feeling this way. So they come to us and see the biblical basis, he said, and all of a sudden they become liberated.”
Tom:
Dave here’s someone who’s—it’s interesting, you know as the article pointed out, the guy is not a Mormon, reading a bit more of the article which—Gary didn’t read all of it—but he was involved with cults beforehand. One of his wives was a former cult member, who he helped leave the cult.
Dave:
Now what do you mean “involved with cults?” Do you mean getting people out of cults?
Tom:
Getting people out of cults, right.
Dave:
And he is supposedly a real Christian who is standing up for the truth.
Tom:
Well, that’s right.
Dave:
Except in this area, he’s not standing up for the truth.
Tom:
Well he thinks he is and he also thinks that he has a ministry to get Mormons out of Mormonism.
Dave:
Right. Tom, let me just make a few observations.
Tom:
Okay.
Dave:
1) First of all it’s not practical for a number of reasons. There are about an equal number of women as there are men. So now if we’ve got some men who are taking 2 or 3 or 4 wives then there’s not enough to go around—just from a practical standpoint. 2) In the Old Testament it was practical because the men were always going to war and they were always getting killed, so there were extra women to go around. However, this was not condoned; I mean this was condoned by God. Paul says God winked at this ignorance, you know there were certain things, but He never said that this was what man should do. Christ said in the New Testament, God made them male and female and he said a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. It doesn’t say to his wives. And God did not create several Eves for Adam to have. So from the very beginning it was only supposed to be one man and one woman. But now when you come to the New Testament, and there were those who did not obey God’s Word in the Old Testament. They didn’t obey God’s Word in a lot of ways. But that is not what the New Testament says. Now—
Tom:
And it caused them plenty, plenty of grief—
Dave:
It did. There is great grief today—jealousy among wives and so forth—, but is it biblical? No, it’s not biblical. First of all, in the Old Testament in Jeremiah 31:31 God says I will make a new covenant with Israel, not according to the covenant that I made with them, so if this was part of the old covenant, which it wasn’t, but even if you wanted to say that, there’s a new covenant. Now in the New Testament it’s very clear. It says that an elder or deacon is to be the husband of one wife.
Tom:
Dave in particular here, this man is starting a church. We have a ministry that believes they are doing what’s right as Christians, but as you are pointing out here, Paul writes to Timothy, he writes to Titus that anyone who teaches in the church is to be the husband of one wife.
Dave:
So polygamy was not practiced in the early church—it was not allowed. Now it’s amazing that this man is not only practicing it and allowing it, but he’s preaching it as though this is some kind of a benefit. You know it sounds like the prosperity gospel of Hagin and Copeland and so forth who say well God has called us to preach a prosperity gospel. I think if this man is a true Christian and he wants to get people out of a cult he needs to emphasize the gospel of Jesus Christ. He needs to renounce of course his disobedience to Scripture. How can he be a teacher, I presume, at least an elder, a pastor—
Tom:
Well he’s going to be a pastor of his own church he says.
Dave:
But he cannot be because the scripture very clearly says he must be the husband of one wife. But not only is he disobeying scripture, now he’s making a gospel out of this and trying to bring other people into this thing which he calls liberation, but in fact it’s anti-biblical and it’s not even practical. It creates all kinds of problems. So Tom it’s an interesting article but it just is illustrative of some of the strange ideas that people get and try to blame the Bible for them when they are not biblical at all.
