contending for the faith
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call, Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000.
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: “Dear Dave and Tom, I’ve received the following commentary on hymns and choruses in an e-mail from a friend, and I’m not sure where the person got it. Evidently, the author is a bit smarter than the two of you because he left it unsigned to keep the controversy from parking itself on his or her personal doorstep. Although I have my suspicions, I’m curious to hear how you handle the enclosed submission.”
Tom:
Dave, we don’t usually don’t take submissions of any length, but I thing this is definitely an exception. “An old farmer went to the city on one weekend and attended the big city church. He came home and his wife asked him how it was. Well, he said, It was good, they did something different however, they sang praise choruses instead of hymns. Praise choruses, said his wife, what are those? Oh, they’re okay, they are sort of like hymns only different, said the farmer. Well, what’s the difference, asked his wife. The farmer said, Well, it’s like this, if I were to say to you, Martha, the cows are in the corn, well, that would be a hymn. If, on the other hand, I were to say to you, Martha, Martha, Martha, O Martha, Martha, Martha, the cows, the big cows, the brown cows, the black cows, the white cows, the black and white cows, the cows, cows, cows, are in the corn, are in the corn, are in corn, are in the corn, the corn, corn, corn. Then if I were to repeat the whole thing two or three times, well, that would be a praise chorus. As luck would have it, the exact same Sunday, a young new Christian from the city church attended a small town church. He came home and his wife asked how it was. Well, said the young man, it was good. There was something different however, they sang hymns instead of regular songs. Hymns, said his wife, what are those? Well, they’re okay, they’re sort of like regular songs only different, said the young man. Well, what’s the difference asked his wife. The young man said, well it’s like this, if I were to say to you, Martha, the cows are in the corn, well, that would be a regular song. If, on the other hand, I were to say to you, oh Martha, dear Martha, hear thou my cry, incline thine ear to the words of my mouth, turn thou thy whole wondrous ear by and by to the righteous, inimitable, glorious truth, for the way of the animals who can explain, there in their heads is no shadow of sense. Harkenest, they in God’s Son in His reign, and less from the mild, tempting corn they are sent. Yea, those cows, in proud bovine, rebellious delight, have broken free their shackles, their worn pens eschewed. Then goaded by minions of darkness and night, they all, my child, Chilliwack sweet corn have chewed. So, look to that bright shining day by and by where all foul corruption’s of earth are reborn, where no vicious animal makes my soul cry, and I no longer see those foul cows in the corn. Then if I were to do only verses 1, 3 and 4, and do a key change in the last verse, well, that would be a hymn. Now Dave, I think we’ve got two extremes here, and this is, I appreciate this, but what are we talking about when we’re talking about hymns that glorify God? Those that have content.
Dave:
Like your news article and it’s a little bit difficult to take this one seriously. Extreme is right, but I would say there is definitely a difference between so-called praise songs and hymns. It doesn’t mean that every hymn is the best, or that every praise—
Tom:
It makes a point here with their rendition of a hymn.
Dave:
I don’t know hymns like that, and maybe some people would say, Well, I don’t know praise choruses like that, seven-eleven songs, seven words repeated eleven times, or whatever. The hymns, you can take your pick, you can take your pick of praise choruses, you can take your pick of hymns, [and] there are a lot of hymns in a book. And I know some fantastic hymns, and I know hymns that have biblical content, that have doctrinal content that bow you in worship before the Lord, because they biblically declare who He is, and what He has done in beautiful straightforward language, not this kind of stuff—
Tom:
A regular song in terms of content and communication.
Dave:
I’ve also been present when so called praise songs, or whatever they call them, from the worship team, and I find words about, I love to worship you, I love to worship you, I love to worship you, and I’m sitting there thinking, well then, why don’t you worship Him. Worship is not words about worship, praise is not words about praise, and love is not words about love. If we begin to declare the glory of the Lord, the wonders of His love, and there are wonderful hymns that state that in very clear powerful terms. Then we are worshipping, then we are praising, there must be some content to this. So I must say that I have found an awful lot of these new choruses content-less, shallow and repetitive. On the other hand, there are some that are quite good, and there are hymns that maybe are not quite as bad as that one, but some. So I think what we have to do is decide, do we really want to praise the Lord, do we really love the Lord, then let’s find something from wherever it comes from that really expresses this clearly.
Tom:
Dave and it goes back to the point we made in our future article. If you’re going to love God, you are going to love Him on the basis of knowing Him, knowing Him better and better; what He’s done, what He’s about, as you said before, what He has done for us.
Dave:
Who He is.
Tom:
Just who He is, and that’s a learning, growing situation of knowledge, of understanding Him.
Dave:
Maybe they need to give more attention to the lyrics, to the words than to the beat, because it seems like people can be very caught up in the beat. And I’m not opposed to clapping your hands, or whatever.
Tom:
Something up beat.
Dave:
There has to be some content, some cerebral understanding of who God is and why we are praising Him rather than just clapping our hands and getting into a rhythm.
Tom:
Yeah, it becomes mindless emotion if that’s the case.
Dave:
Right.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here is this week’s question: Dear Mr. Hunt, I’ve heard you mention on the program more than once that you’ve been a Christian 60+ years. I’d be interested to know what you regard as the most significant changes which have taken place during that time period. And as long as you are reviewing the past, what do you see ahead, if the Lord tarries?
Tom:
Dave, this one’s—I’m not 60+ here, so this one’s for you.
Dave:
Oh my goodness! Do we have a few hours, Tom, for this? What do I see in the future? I’m not a prophet; I don’t see anything in the future.
Tom:
Well, let’s back up. I want to tell our audience a little story on you. I remember when we were working on the Seduction of Christianity, and we were doing all this research and collecting all this material, I mean, it’s just overwhelming, just unbelievable, and you were standing, we were in your kitchen, and you were standing there pealing an apple, and looking over at me, and you said to me, “Tom, I think the whole world has gone completely insane, and you looked at me and you said, except you and me.” Then you thought about it a minute and you said, “And I’m not so sure about you!”
Dave:
Tom, that doesn’t sound good for me, it sounds like a deceitful heart.
Tom:
No, it was, I mean, I hope everybody takes that the way it was intended. It was just unbelievable, and that was 15 years ago, so that should start you off.
Dave:
The world has gone mad it seems. It has gotten worse, Tom, since then of course, and when we have evangelical leaders who are compromised, really compromising, joining with Roman Catholics who have a false gospel, there can be no question about it, to evangelize the world, supposedly. You know, we just had the Lutheran World Federation, and the Catholic Theologians sign this document after 30 years of discussion, Joint Declaration on Justification by Faith, and the whole thing began over indulgences. That’s Martin Luther’s 95 Thesis that he nailed to the door of the Wittenberg Castle Chapel. It was a dissertation on the efficacy and power of indulgences. That’s what the whole thing—that really triggered the Reformation. And now they are signing that document to say we are in agreement, and the Pope is offering more indulgences, opening holy doors in Rome, pilgrims coming from around the world to walk through these doors to get forgiveness of sin. If you give up cigarettes in the year 2000, you get forgiveness of sins. And this is what it all began over, it’s like the Pope is thumbing his nose at them, and yet they are signing this document, that we are now in agreement. And the head of the Lutheran World Federation says what a great day this is and so forth. Tom, and then we have, we just had this huge charismatic in St. Louis, and that was in St. Louis in June 2000. You had the head of the Assemblies of God, you had so many leading Christians there joining with Roman Catholics in a conference? They used to burn us at the stake, this is a false gospel. Look, signing this joint declaration, and the Evangelicals and Catholics Together has not changed the fact that Catholics wear scapulars. Pope has worn a scapular all his life, on one end of it says, “Whosoever dies wearing this scapular shall not suffer eternal fire.” I mean, I could go on and on about these things. I was just over in Switzerland, the Dalai Lama preached in Calvin’s pulpit in the cathedral in Geneva, Switzerland, a few months ago. The Dean of the cathedral said what a wonderful event this was, we’re coming together, and embracing one another and the Pope says to Sri Chinmoy, who leads weekly meditations, (he’s a Hindu at the UN), your message and my message are the same. And we have leading evangelicals like Charles Colson, Bill Bright, J. I. Packard, Pat Robertson, and so forth, who signed a document with Catholics saying and telling the Pope, your message and our message is the same. Yes, I think something has gone wrong. It has gotten much worse, and what does the church need, what has gone wrong? I think a failure to stand by the Bible, to earnestly contend for THE faith once for all delivered to the saints! If justification by faith is so complex that theologians have to discuss it for 30 years, who could possible be saved? So let’s get back to the simplicity of the gospel, let’s get back to the clarity of scripture, and let us stand by that, not the traditions of men. Jesus didn’t say; Go into all the world and dialogue! But dialogue is a big word today. We’ve got Catholics dialoguing with Buddhists, and the Southern Baptists are dialoguing with the Catholics. You don’t dialogue about mathematics. We don’t dialogue well, 2 + 2 is 4, I mean, let’s discuss it. How do you feel about that, why can’t we let it be 5, at least on Thursdays or something! Tom, you do not dialogue about truth. The Bible says that this is THE truth, this is THE way, and this is the gospel, outside of that there is no salvation! We had better have the fear of God enough to honor His Word, and stop trying to make alliances with people who do not believe God’s Word. I think it’s going to get worse, that’s what the Bible says.
Tom:
Dave, just to add one thing to that: Christian media. I mean here we have as Christians we have so many resources with regard to God’s Word. We’ve got computers, we’ve got everything that we would want to have, or that would make it easy to get into God’s Word all the more, but it’s all going south. Christian media is really corrupting us, rather than encouraging us and helping us to grow in God’s Word.
Dave:
It’s doing both. There are some good and encouraging things edifying things on Christian media, but there is much that is not.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here is this week’s question: Dear Tom and Dave, “While I tend to agree with you that there are no contradictions in the Bible, I have heard some Bible teachers say that there are paradoxes. Too often that’s a euphemism for contradiction, or at least a word to avoid settling the seeming contradiction. Let me give you one example of verses that seem to contradict one another written by the same person. Jeremiah 17:9 and Jeremiah 29:13, is this a paradox?”
Tom:
Dave, let me read those verses: Jeremiah 17:9, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” And then, Jeremiah 29:13: “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” So I assume this writer has the problem of on the one hand, the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, but on the other hand we are to seek God with our heart. Now is this the same heart?
Dave:
Yes, I don’t see the problem there. You didn’t read verse 10, Jeremiah 17:10, it goes on, when it says the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, the next verse is: “I the Lord search the heart.” So when I am seeking God with my whole heart, and that simply means sincerely, not just to use Him to my ends and God says, “Ye will seek for Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart.” A lot of people have their own idea of God. Mother Teresa, I remember, said whatever God is in your mind you must accept. Well, there are many false gods and the Bible is very clear about that. So God is saying if you really want to know the true God, if you want to really know Me, and you really want to know Me, so that I can reveal myself to you and show you the relationship I want to have with you, then you will find Me, if you seek for Me with all your heart.
Tom:
Dave, how can that be when the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, can a heart even do that?
Dave:
Yes, I think I know when I sincerely want to know God. “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked,” I think, involves something else, my motive. And when I am coming to the Lord—well, for example, pride enters in, and someone tries to reason with me and I’m stubborn and proud and I don’t realize that I am. Or I think that I really want God’s glory, when in fact I want my own. I remember Andrew Murray, years ago, said that whenever you start to pray there are two men in your heart, one is the Pharisee who says oh God, I thank you that I am not like other men, and so forth. The other one is the publican who beats upon his breast and says, God, be merciful to me a sinner. But if I say Lord, like David in Psalm 139, “Search me O God, know my heart, try me, know my thoughts, see if there be any wicked way in me, lead me in the way everlasting,” I can rely upon God to really reveal my heart to me, reveal the desperate wickedness and the deceitfulness of my heart. And in fact, that’s why I want to come to God. I am seeking God with all my heart, so that He can show me where I fall short. And so that He can lead me in the paths of righteousness. So, I don’t see a contradiction here. In fact, I see a very good reason for seeking God with all my heart because I know my heart is deceitful. Lord, please show me my heart, and please guide me and reveal yourself to me.
Tom:
Dave, one more point about the, could we say that, for example in verse 9, “The heart is deceitful of all things and desperately wicked,” that’s not an absolute, is it? When you gave the example of Andrew Murray saying hey, there are too many here, there’s the Pharisee and the publican.
Dave:
Yeah, you raise a good point, Tom, because I think the Calvinist would say that we are so totally depraved that this is all we can ever think is desperately wicked thoughts. On the other hand, the Calvinist does acknowledge that there are people who do good things, for example, the soldier—would be a number of examples. These are not Christians who throw themselves on a hand grenade to save their buddies lives. So, you are right, it is not an absolute, and maybe the person who asked this question was thinking this is an absolute. Well, if it’s an absolute we can’t think anything but deceitful and desperately wicked thoughts. Then how could we even search for God with our whole heart? But the fact that God tells us to must indicate that we, even ungodly, unsaved, unregenerate persons must have the capacity, the capability of seeking Him, otherwise He wouldn’t tell us to do so.
Tom:
Right and this would make no sense.
Dave:
So when I seek Him, I put myself in His hands. Interestingly it says THE heart, it doesn’t say a wicked person’s heart, it says every heart. And you know what Proverbs says, “As in water, like a mirror, face answers to face, the face reflects itself.” So the heart of man reflects the heart of man. So this, we are all included in this, and it is a call for all of us to seek the Lord with our whole hearts.
Tom:
Right and it’s an encouragement as well. That’s why finding these two verses in Jeremiah, you know, the weeping prophet, on the one hand it sounds like it’s a downer in 17:9, but God gives us the solution and it’s in Him, seeking Him, knowing Him, and being able to do this.
Dave:
Amen, that’s wonderful.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here is this week’s question: Dear Dave and TA, I have been following your ministry for a long time now, and I’ve gotten myself into trouble from time to time defending what you guys do. Nevertheless, I am curious how you go about picking the subjects you address in your newsletter and radio program. They always seem timely and rarely if ever nit-picking.
Tom:
Dave, this is kind of a general little question, but it’s something that we really take to heart. The things that we do, the programs that we do, we don’t want it to be just haphazard or arbitrary. For example, we get hundreds of letters a week. One of the aspects of this ministry is to take a look at what’s going on in the body of Christ. We get magazines [that] we subscribe to, you know, we don’t watch much Christian television, but we do get responses from people who do check that out. So my point here is that we look at what seems to be affecting the body of Christ, doctrinally for the most part, but also their practices, the teachings that go on, and we do just what we encourage everyone who gets our newsletter, everyone who listens to the program, to search the scriptures daily to see if these things, this doctrine, this teaching, this technique, this methodology, to see if they are indeed true to God’s Word.
Dave:
That’s part of it, Tom, much of where the articles at least come from, of course the Q&As—they are in response to the questions that we get. But, I mean, I’ll be meditating on the Word of God— It might be in the middle of the night, as the Lord wakes me up and I’m talking to Him. I think the- (What is it?) our November one is “The Call to Discipleship.” That wasn’t really in response to anything that’s happening in the church or and around us; it was just something the Lord put on my heart. In fact, I gave a series of, (I think), six or seven talks on that topic at Word of Life, Schroon Lake in New York last summer, and so as I talk to the Lord, as I read His Word, as I meditate upon Him and upon His Word, His Truth, I—you just have so many thoughts have come to mind, you couldn’t even begin to develop them all. I can remember how many years ago when this began, thinking, my goodness, how would I ever come up with another article to write next month? You know, there are thousands of them that could be written and that are being written many by other people because God’s Word is infinite, it will never plumb its depths and the depths of our relationship with Him. So, that’s part of it as well.
Tom:
But specifically, Dave—so you’ve got all of these ideas, and God speaks to your heart, and you are going through His Word. How do you lean upon Him, how do you make the selection?
Dave:
Tom, it’s hard to say, you know, I couldn’t say, and I couldn’t say that oh I’ve selected this one because this is just the one the Lord wants this month. I don’t know, I hope so, but it does seem as the Lord guides us, for example, when was it? Was it August when I wrote, “O, Jerusalem, Jerusalem,” just before this big blowup in Jerusalem, and some people said oh my, you must be a prophet, I mean, how did you come out with that just in the right time? I don’t know, and I wouldn’t even say that there was anything to that, that there was a connection. But the Lord just maybe, I just feel stronger about this than that, and there is so much that could be written. But what we want to do, Tom, as you already expressed it, we want to glorify the Lord. We want people to get into His Word. In fact, I already have laid on my heart, and this is way ahead of time now for January, I want to write an article, if the Lord spares me, and He has not taken us out of here through the Rapture, the title will be, “The Word Of God,” and I’ve got a lot to think, about for people who think about considering the Word of God. “In the beginning was The Word…” and the Word is God, and God spoke the Worlds into existence through His Word, and so forth. Well, just some—I think—incredible insights that I’ve been receiving from the Lord, from His Word about the Word, that I would like to share with people. So, it’s just something the Lord really puts on your heart.
Tom:
Dave, we are really encouraged because letters that we get, not that everybody agrees with everything that we say in our articles, and they shouldn’t, they should search the scriptures to see if these things are according to God’s Word and then be edified and encouraged because they are. But we do get a lot of letters from people after an article comes out that says look our church—this came into our youth group. You know, I remember the article that I did dealing with the Contemplative Movement and so on. But I received a letter from some youth pastors that say we were concerned about this, we didn’t quite know how to handle it, and so you helped inform us. Now that’s done certainly by the leading of the Holy Spirit, but also by looking at what is impacting the church. So, it’s an encouragement to people that way and we are encouraged to get that feedback.
Dave:
We just want to try to be God’s servants, and that’s not easy because we are so imperfect and so dull in understanding. But we just say Lord here we are, we just want to try to be a blessing and to exalt You, and that’s our desire.
Tom:
Amen.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to question from listeners and readers of The Berea Call. Here is this week’s question: Dear Mr. Hunt and Mr. McMahon, Would you do me a favor and talk about the Holy Spirit. There are a lot of ideas floating around about this 3rd person of the Trinity, everything from His being an impersonal power that God uses, sort of like electricity, to His being God. Although we are not to pray to Him, or worship Him, I’m not quite sure about some of this, especially the last part. Thanks, for your help.
Tom:
Dave, there are some teachings that are pretty obvious that come out of the cults, whether it’s in Jehovah’s Witnesses, or others who don’t recognize the Holy Spirit as a person, but as the questioner indicates, sort of a power, electricity, like electricity is on. But this is not the Holy Spirit as the Bible sets it forth.
Dave:
Well, the Holy Spirit, according to scripture, is a personal being. This is very difficult for us to describe this, because I don’t even know what a person is. Men and women, human beings are personal beings. We have a sense of personal identity. I guess that’s what, mainly, you mean. A personal being has an identity as a person, separate and distinct in themselves from all the things around them and all the other persons around them.
Tom:
God made us in His image, so we can look to each other to find some attribute, some characteristics that are found in God.
Dave:
Well, we’ll see the deformed; we’ll see the falling short.
Tom:
Right, no I’m not talking about on this instance, you know, His divineness.
Dave:
The falling short of what we ought to be made in the image of God, and of course sin is coming short of the glory of God. But, no, you get the descriptions of the Holy Spirit, or descriptions of how He acts, and thinks and so forth.
Tom:
Now you say, He, personal being, not it.
Dave:
Yes, I’ve had a little conversation with a gentleman on the plane the other day about that, and he says, Why do you say, He? We’re talking about God, and he says, Why do you say, He? Well, I said, God is not an “it” that’s for sure, and God is not a “she” because feminine language for God would be altogether inappropriate because a woman gives birth out of herself. So the baby is an extension of her, has been nurtured by her, and so forth. But the universe is not an extension of God, and we’re not an extension of God. An image in a mirror is not an extension, it’s something else. So there’s the only other one you’ve got, it, he or she, and it doesn’t mean that God is like a man. In fact, the Bible says God is not a man that He should lie, neither the Son of man. But the Bible is very clear Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all separate and distinct individual persons, but they are one God. Now we don’t understand that. We’ve talked about it in the past; we can’t explain it away because for example Genesis 1:1, the very first verse says, “In the beginning, Gods….” Eloheim is the word there, it’s a plural. Well then why does the Bible say, “In the beginning God?” Because the word “created,” the verb is in the singular, and all through the Old Testament you have a plurality and a singularity. At the burning bush, for example, Moses says what’s your name, who are you? God says well it is Eloheim, plural. It’s Gods speaking but Eloheim does not say we are that we are. Eloheim says I am that I am. Now Paul says, “Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption.” Those who are led,—so the Holy Spirit must have a personality. He can be grieved. Those who are led of the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God, so the Holy Spirit leads. Paul says we were prevented of the Holy Spirit from going into Asia. So the Holy Spirit has a will, and has a purpose, and guides and so forth. So, all through the New Testament and the Old Testament, the Spirit of God is presented as thinking and doing and willing—
Tom:
Teaching, He’s the comforter, power—electric power doesn’t comfort or console us in any. Dave, for Christians, some object to the fact that there are songs to the Holy Spirit, or the Holy Spirit is invited in and so on. In other words, there’s a thinking among Christians that praise, worship, all of those are not to be given to the Holy Spirit. What do you say to that?
Dave:
Well, first of all we don’t invite the Holy Spirit in. If we are saved, we are indwelt, we are sealed of the Holy Spirit, and furthermore, He is with us. Jesus said where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I. So people who say, Come, Holy Spirit, now we are going to give you permission to be here and to operate—you hear this in some of the so-called miracle crusades—that is not biblical at all. Now there are misunderstandings in this area. For example, Paul writes to the Ephesians and he says, “When He, the Spirit of truth is come…” that’s chapter 2 and “He will not speak of himself.” Some people say oh that means that the Holy Spirit doesn’t talk about himself. So anything that’s directed to the Holy Spirit, if you’re talking about the Holy Spirit, no it means He does not speak on his own initiative. Just as Jesus said, I can’t of my own self do anything, the Father does it. Father, Son and Holy Spirit work in concert and harmony as one. So, it doesn’t mean that the Holy Spirit—well, how can the Holy Spirit inspire the Bible when it tells us about the Holy Spirit? So, on the other hand, we come to the Father through the Son, we worship Jesus, and so forth, nowhere do you get that kind of language in the Bible. It is the Holy Spirit who enables us to know, who enables us to worship the Father, to worship the Son and so forth. But the Holy Spirit is God; make no mistake about that, one with the Father and the Son.
