contending for the faith
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000, and
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and Tom, I live in a Catholic neighborhood and a couple of my friends were discussing the Vatican’s recent release of the Third Secret of Fatima. They explained that the Virgin Mary appeared to three children near the City of Fatima in Portugal in 1917, and gave them information they were to keep secret until she told them to communicate it to others. My Catholic friends told me that the Miracles of Fatima and the accuracy of the prophecies by apparition of Mary are overwhelming proof that all of it is of God. It seems doubtful but I was at a loss as to how to respond, what are your thoughts?
Tom:
Dave, there are a number of aspects that we could address, but we don’t have time to cover everything. But the first question, one we have to ask about is this apparition that appeared to these three children at Fatima in Portugal. Number one is this apparition, who she claims to be, is it the Mary of the Bible? Well, that can be taken care of very simply. There are 90 verses in the scriptures that deal with Mary. You compare those scriptures with what the apparitions claim, and say, and proclaim and it’s not the same. Contrary Mary, as someone said.
Dave:
First of all, she said many souls perish and go to hell because there is no one to make sacrifice for them. She promises that she will save souls.
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
No, the sacrifice was made by Christ upon the cross, and this Mary as Mary in the other apparitions, always stands in the way. God is about to pour out His judgment, or Jesus in fact is going to pour out His judgment and she is going to prevent it. I’m sorry, I interrupted you.
Tom:
No, but you just gave an example of what I’ve been referring to. The reparations are to be made to her immaculate heart—two problems there. No reparations are needed, Christ paid the full penalty for all sins and we have a problem with her immaculate heart. Mary cried out, check it out in the Book of Luke, she rejoiced in God her Savior. So, this is not the Mary of the Bible.
Dave:
And furthermore, reparations are not made to a person, sin is against God, it’s not against Mary. They don’t need to make reparations to Mary and the Mary of the Bible would never ask this and it’s not biblical.
Tom:
Dave, one of the reasons that the church became convinced that this apparition was indeed the “Blessed Virgin Mary” had to do with a manifestation that took place, what they called “the dancing of the sun.” There were 70,000 people that witnessed that and after that the church became convinced that this was indeed of God. But this was not the sun dancing, this was a local event and no astronomer in history—oh, by the way, this occurs in other places where there are apparitions, in the Philippines, in Texas and other places where an apparition has appeared. But never has an astronomer said this is a physical event that took place and we can document it through our observation.
Dave:
It certainly not observable by others, so it’s some kind of phenomenon and if the Antichrist can make fire come from heaven and so forth—
Tom:
Which the scriptures say he will.
Dave:
Right, then this could be done, but Tom, I would think that they would be embarrassed to release the text of this because as you go through it, let me just read it a little bit very quickly: “To save souls God wishes to establish in the world devotion to my immaculate heart.” Now wait a minute, that’s not how souls get saved, but they are saved because Christ died for their sins. And many souls, if you do as I say, this apparition says, many souls will be saved and there will be peace. God is about to punish the world for its crimes by means of war, famine, persecutions and so forth, but if my requests are heeded Russia will be converted and there will be peace.
Tom:
Now that’s converted to Catholicism, not just in giving up Communism.
Dave:
Right, but Tom, but where in the world does it ever say that doing Mary’s will is the secret to converting anybody? Never is that in the scriptures. And then there’s an image, there’s an apparition and an angel with flaming sword is flashing, he’s about to bring judgment upon this earth. All this judgment, the fire from the angel’s sword dies out in contact with the splendor of our lady that was radiated. Wait a minute, so Mary getting the credit for everything. Then it goes on and talks about the bishop dressed in white—he was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him. He wasn’t killed—and you’ve got a big massacre here that never happened, you know, so how could you say that was the prophecy of that? And then there the angels are gathering up the blood of the martyrs and they are sprinkling on the souls of people as though it’s the blood of martyrs that saves them? No, it’s the blood of Jesus Christ. So it’s absolutely unbiblical, it’s contrary to the Word of God, it is diminishing the importance of Christ and setting up this Mary. I would think the Catholic Church would be embarrassed by this.
Tom:
Well, Dave, this third secret which we are referring to was supposed to have been released in 1960. The problem here is that it wasn’t released until recently because most prophecies, the seers, the saints so called, of Catholicism have had visions about the end times and what would happen to the church. It involves apostasy from within; it involves destruction of the church. Certainly, in 1960, just previous to Vatican II, that pope decided not to present that information because of what he wanted to see happen through Vatican II.
Dave:
However you spell it out Tom—it’s unbiblical I think they would be embarrassed. It elevates Mary above Jesus, she becomes the Savior of the world, she stops God’s judgment, and you have to make reparations to her. It just simply isn’t biblical, it isn’t true, it’s not true to the character of Mary nor to the character of God, nor the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the cross.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation. Please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Mr. Hunt and Mr. McMahon, I notice that the latest episode of the Left Behind series reached the number one spot of the New York Times best seller list. I’ve read all of them and found them to be very entertaining, but there is something that puzzles me. Among evangelicals who believe in the Rapture of the church before the Great Tribulation, there has been a zeal to produce all kinds of things, from tracts to film productions to let the world know that when millions of people disappear from the earth those left behind will know those raptured went to be with the Lord. The idea is, the Left Behind type tracts, books, videos and so on will explain the mass disappearance. It seems like the current popularity of rapture explanations will help a great number of those to come—there has been a zeal to produce, what do you think?
Tom:
Well, I haven’t read the Left Behind series, I haven’t read any of the books, but what I have heard about it they sound like they are pretty good.
Dave:
I have not read them either, Tom.
Tom:
So why are we talking about it?
Dave:
I’m waiting for my good friend Tim to give me some free copies. No, that’s not the issue, I just haven’t had time.
Tom:
But what about this idea, Dave?
Dave:
I understand the question this person is asking, and I’ve had some people say that it bothered them, but you would get the idea by reading the series that, well, we’re not sure whether Jesus Christ is the Savior or not, and we’re not sure about, you know, whether the Bible is true, but if these people suddenly disappear they will know it’s all true and then we’ll come to Christ. Now again, I haven’t read them so I don’t know, but I’m assuming these people are telling me if that is the impression it gives, I think it’s dangerous.
Tom:
Are you referring to 2 Thessalonians 2?
Dave:
Right. I can’t be dogmatic, but it does seem to indicate that if you have heard the gospel, I mean only the Lord knows, but it does say that those who refuse to receive the love of the truth will be given a strong delusion to believe the lie, 2 Thessalonians 2: 8, 9, 10, well, from 10 on, that they all might be damned who had pleasure in unrighteousness. I think it would be very dangerous for anyone to say well, I’m going to wait and see, and if the rapture occurs, then I’ll believe. I think you would be given a strong delusion to believe the lie. On the other hand—
Tom:
Which comes from God himself, the scripture says.
Dave:
Exactly.
Tom:
So we’re not talking about just somebody’s thoughts or ideas, I mean, they will be compelled because of their own heart, the delusion of their own heart to believe this couldn’t have happened even if they had one of Tim’s books in their hands.
Dave:
Right. Tom, I’ve often told audiences, and again I can’t be dogmatic because the Lord knows the heart of each individual, but I’ve often said you know if suddenly we all disappeared and you were the only one left here in this church sitting here alone, I don’t think you would believe it was the Rapture. You would have some other explanation, you would be given a strong delusion to believe the lie, and there are a number of lies, you know, explanations, and the popularity of UFO’s and the space Odysseys and so forth, “beam me up, Scotty.” I think that would probably be the most rational explanation for most people who are left behind.
Tom:
In addition the man of lawlessness, the Antichrist, he’s going to be a compelling figure to seduce the world. So it won’t just be an idea they had about where these people may have gone. He will supply some information in that regard.
Dave:
There will be people, millions perhaps who will come to faith in Christ because the Bible talks about the great—
Tom:
After the Rapture.
Dave:
After the Rapture—a great multitude and they pay for their faith with their lives. If you don’t take the mark of the beast you can’t buy or sell. You don’t bow down and worship is image, you are killed. It’s that simple, it’s going to be enforced because of the necessity, I presume, and you can see it coming now to unite the world and we can’t have people who are coming up with contrary theories and ideas that bring about disunity. Everyone has to think the same; they will all worship the Antichrist for the good of mankind, of course. If I were an unsaved person I would not want to take a chance. I think you would be tempting God, I think furthermore that the gospel is true, we have the evidence. Each person knows in his own heart that he is a sinner, that he needs salvation, he needs forgiveness from God, and he needs to be saved from the penalty of God’s wrath because of sin, and if that is not enough to convict them and to bring them to Christ, then I don’t think they are going to believe afterwards.
Tom:
Dave, Tim LaHaye has taken some hits on this because people are saying, as they have said to us, Well, this is an idea; this Rapture idea came out of the 1800’s. Again, the name of the program is Search the Scriptures Daily, isn’t there a scriptural basis? We do have a little time here but is there scriptural basis for this idea of the Rapture?
Dave:
Of course. In John 14, Jesus said, I am going to go away and prepare a place for you; I’ll come again and receive you unto myself. He says he is going to the Father’s house, sounds like he is going to take us to the Father’s house. Now 1st Thessalonians 4, you know, says “the dead in Christ will rise first; we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air.” And in the Latin Bible you have the Word of Rapture—
Tom:
In the Vulgate, right.
Dave:
—rapture there. So definitely the Bible says we are going to be taken away from this earth. At the Rapture Christ doesn’t even, his feet don’t touch the Mount of Olives; we are caught up to meet him in the air. It’s only at the second coming that he comes to this earth to rescue Israel in the midst of Armageddon. So, the Rapture is not an idea that we get from some writing of men, it comes from the Bible.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation. Please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Tom and Dave, Here in California and I suppose around the country the death penalty is a much discussed issue. Cardinal Mahoney of Los Angeles held a press conference recently calling on the governor to put a permanent end to state executions. While the Cardinal speaks for Catholics, I was wondering what God has to say about it in the scriptures.
Tom:
Dave as a former Catholic, I know the catechism teaches that they acknowledge the death penalty but there’s many qualifications. One is that we don’t need it anymore because we have the facilities to incarcerate somebody basically to protect the public from a killer. So it would be better given the sanctity of life and so on to not have capital punishment.
Dave:
It is very clear that the death penalty was instituted by God. Even for eating the fruit of a tree that He had forbidden. He said in the day that you eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now they didn’t die physically, but they began to die—they died spiritually and that is even worse. For God to cut them off from His life so that they would be lost eternally—that’s very serious. In Genesis 9:5-6 God says “And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.” This is God saying that He requires this.
Tom:
Dave many Christians are—they are on opposite sides of this issue and one of the statements of some who are against capital punishment would say well that was the law and we are now not under the law. But that command by God was given before the law.
Dave:
Exactly. This was a foundational principle from scripture and God makes it very strong. Later He says that where they do not exact the death penalty the blood of the victims cries out from the ground. It doesn’t make sense that here is let’s say is a mass murderer—well even if he murdered one person and now the activists are saying but don’t take his life. Well, he took someone’s life and now we are going to protect him when the Bible says you take man’s life, your life will be taken. You see, one of the things we talked about earlier about the Qur’an and about Islam—one of the many things that distinguishes the Bible and Christianity from Islam is the penalties that are exacted. You steal something in Islam and your hand is cut off. You are marked for life. It destroys that marvelous mechanism the hand, then the arm doesn’t function, then the two arms don’t work together. You steal again then they cut off your foot on the other side and you are maimed for life. No the Bible doesn’t say that. It says you restore it fourfold—you steal something then you pay it back. The Bible doesn’t even talk about putting people in prison, but they repay. Now it says a tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye and a life for a life and this is the justice from God. So I don’t think that there is any way that I can explain this away and say that this is no long required. The life of Jesus was taken. This is in the New Testament now. You couldn’t say well God says well that was Old Testament. When Jesus took my place, He took your place, He took the place of all mankind and He stood at the bar of God’s justice, never mind Pilate—that was unjust. What we did to Him was unjust. It was horrible, it was reprehensible and that would only add to our penalty. But God bruised him. It says in Isaiah 53:10: “Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin….” So when Jesus stood and took my place before the bar of eternal justice, God’s justice the penalty was exacted upon Him—death. His blood had to be shed. So I don’t think we can get around that and I don’t think that it is beneficial to society. It is not beneficial to the murderer. It certainly is not beneficial to the victims.
Tom:
Dave the New Testament seems to support this idea. It doesn’t seem to—I think it flat out does. Romans 13:1-5: “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5) Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. This is establishing laws—
Dave:
Tom in other words, what it’s saying it is not condoning a Hitler, but it is saying—
Tom:
Or vigilantly committee, or some lone ranger.
Dave:
Right, but those who are in legitimate authority (are supp—and Hitler)—I wouldn’t call him in legitimate authority, although technically he was voted in and so forth and given this position, but nevertheless he did not execute God’s justice. He was an unjust ruler, so the Bible does not condone unjust rulers, but it is saying—Romans 13 is saying that authority figures on this earth are placed there by God for the purpose of executing His judgment—His justice in the earth and that would include what God has said in His Word.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000, and
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dave and TA, On occasion I get a comment from non-Christians who tell me they don’t bother with the Bible because it’s full of contradictions. I usually respond by asking them to give me a couple. Because it’s usually just a ploy to dismiss God’s Word, few ever do. However, one person recently pointed out that in the gospels numbers don’t match regarding how many times the cock was to crow before Peter denied Jesus. Matthew, Luke and John say once, Mark says twice. How is this reconciled?
Dave:
Well, first of all, Matthew, Luke and John don’t say once, they say the cock shall not crow until you deny me thrice. Now what that is saying is the time for the cock crowing. I think one of the gospels refers to it this way, the cock crowing, there’s a time in the morning when you call it the cock crowing. It’s not just one cock, they are just crowing away. So the Bible says, before the time of the cock. Matthew, Luke and John say, before the time of the cock crowing, when they all start crowing you will deny Me trice. Now, Mark is a little bit more specific, and it’s quite interesting, because Jesus is being very gracious to Peter; He said, the cock will not crow twice before you deny Me, thrice. Now you read the book of Mark, and you find that a rooster crowed, apparently an hour too early. For the first time Peter denied his Lord, it says, immediately the cock crew, the rooster crowed. And that should have been a warning to Peter. But he persisted, and then it’s an hour later before all the roosters began crowing at once. There’s not a contradiction, in fact it gives us an insight into the grace of God and the warning that He gave. That’s a very strange thing to say, the rooster won’t crow twice until you deny Me trice. Wait a minute, when a rooster starts crowing they all start crowing. So this is a very specific example of the accuracy of scripture, in fact, not a contradiction.
Tom:
Dave, one of the things that we have to learn when reading God’s Word, there’s figurative language, metaphors, symbolic language, and then there are things that we are to take literally. Sometimes we do get confused because we want to take something very literally that was not meant to be taken literally, and sometimes we just do the opposite. We begin to spiritualize or make into a metaphor something that was not the reason it was intended.
Dave:
Well, every time you examine a supposed contradiction in the Bible, I have a thick file of what the skeptics, atheists have tried to say. You examine it a little further, or you get additional information, sometimes the archeologists have to dig up something else, you realize the Bible is true. Now why are these apparent contradictions in there? I think there is only one reason and that is to cause us to search a bit deeper, and to see that this book was inspired of God, it’s written by eyewitnesses. If you went into a court of law, we’ve probably mentioned this before, and you had 4 witnesses, each one parrots exactly what the other one says, then I think it’s a setup. But if the 4 witnesses seem to contradict one another at key points even, you think, wait a minute! We’ve got a contradiction here, but when you examine further you find out, in fact they are in agreement, although they are saying it in a different way, and from a different perspective, then you’ve got a solid case. And I believe that’s why the Bible gave these apparent contradictions in there. You’ve got some serious ones that we could mention if we had time, but we don’t. But like in Luke 3, you’ve got some serious contradictions apparently. It tells you that in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, that’s Luke 1, we go down to verse 30, or thereabouts, Jesus was 29 years old. Well, he says he’s about 30, so He must be 29 going on 30. You look it up in the history books they would tell you that Tiberius Caesar began the reign in 14 AD, so the 15th year of his reign would be 29 AD. So Jesus was 29 in 29 AD, so he must have been born in 0, and that’s where the Catholic calendar came from, only it’s wrong, because you know from Matthew 2, He was born in the days of Herod the King, Herod the Great, and Herod the Great died in 4 BC, the historians are pretty well agreed on that. So how could Jesus be born in 0, when He was born in the days of Herod and Herod died in 4BC, and when you figure it out, the time it took the wise men to come and so forth, I think Jesus was born in 5 BC. And then, Luke 2 says He was born in the days of Cyrenius, when Cyrenius was governor of Syria. Well, you look it up in the history books, governor of Syria from 6 AD to 20 AD. Now we’ve got a problem! Jesus was born in 0, but he was born in the days of Herod who died in 4 BC, but he was born when Cyrenius was governor of Syria, but he was governor 6 AD—we’ve got real problems. Well, what do you know! When you dig into it a little deeper you find out, Will Durant, the great historian, quotes the citizens of Rome in 9 AD: They are upset, they say, Augustus is still prince but he’s so elderly and ill that Tiberius has already taken over. So if Tiberius took over in 9 AD that moves the birth of Jesus back 5 years. Well, we reconciled that, what do you know, the archeologist dug a little bit deeper, the historians, and they found out Cyrenius was governor of Syria twice, the first time from about 5 BC till 1 BC. So we reconciled it, but the Bible put that in there so you would know this is written by eyewitnesses, it is true, examine it, check it out. And you’ve got names and places where they were, the governor, the Caesar, the tetrarch, technical terms, technical titles, and names of the people who held those offices in those places at that date! You can’t escape it, it’s written by witnesses and it’s true!
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation. Please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and Tom: I enjoy your program very much and particularly the last segment where you have been discussing salvation. One question that I sometimes get from friends, relatives and others I witness to always makes me anxious. So I have revamped it for your program and look forward to your answer. If the possibility of salvation or spending eternity in Heaven with God can only come about through faith in Jesus Christ, how can someone be saved who never heard of Jesus Christ let alone all the things I heard you say one needs to believe in order to be saved?
Tom:
Dave that’s a question that I’ve wrestled with for a long time and it’s only by sort of growing in the faith and understanding the character of God that I have more, as we said, faith in it, or trust in it. But what is your response?
Dave:
Well the Bible says, Shall not the judge of all the earth do right? So I can trust Him for that, number one. Number two, the Bible does tell us in Romans 1 that everyone is without an excuse. That relates to what we were just talking about. These lawyers are without an excuse. The whole universe cries design, designer! We know that God exists. Every person knows that God exists. Furthermore it is totally irrational for any human being, and it is contrary to all the evidence they see around them to form a god out of stone or wood, or to believe in some spirit in a tree or in a waterfall or to worship nature. Nature is not kind, there are no morals with nature. You don’t pray to a hurricane and so forth, so every person where ever they are, every time and every culture, they know that there is a God of infinite power and wisdom who created this universe. So if they reject what God has told them, He’s not obligated to tell them any more. He couldn’t tell them any more, they’ve already rejected the most obvious thing. So they are lost, they are doomed, because of their rebellion against God. This is what sin is. It’s rebellion against God. So the fact that they haven’t heard about Jesus Christ or they don’t know about salvation is not unjust because they would reject Jesus Christ if they heard about Him. They’ve rejected the witness of creation.
Tom:
Would we add the scripture says that God has given everyone a conscience?
Dave:
Right, that’s Romans 2. I was just getting to that, but you go ahead.
Tom:
No, no you go ahead.
Dave:
Well Romans 2 says the Gentiles have not the law, but they do the things contained in the law. They bear witness to the law of God written in their conscience. Their thoughts accusing or excusing one another. So we all know in our conscience, every human being knows in their conscience that not only did God create them, but they are accountable to Him. And they know that they have sinned and come short of His standards. Every human being knows that. Well then they must also know that you can’t appease God. It’s a matter of justice. How am I going to save myself? How am I going to be delivered? Because the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven the scripture says—revealed in our conscience—we have a guilty conscience, we know we’ve sinned, we know we’ve done wrong. Then anyone, anywhere, in any time in history knows that they cannot justify themselves, they cannot save themselves, they cannot make up for having broken the law in the past. Some sacrifice that they offer; some hocus pocus, some ritual isn’t going to work. Then they throw themselves on the mercy of God. They know that God, if there is to be a way, God must have a way. And I believe that God will get that message to all of these people somewhere. Jesus said of Abraham: Abraham rejoiced to see my day. And he saw it and was glad. Well there weren’t any evangelists that came to
Abraham, God spoke to Abraham. I believe that God can speak not only through the universe, through conscience, but He can also—He can bring someone like in the day in which we live, He can bring someone across their path. But God can also speak to them in their conscience. We’re not saying that because they never heard about Christ, therefore they are in some special category. I don’t believe that they are and I don’t find that from the Word of God.
Tom:
You know the thing that has always been an encouragement to me—people say well, you say that people have to believe this and believe that and I don’t know all the mechanisms that God uses to reach a heart. But I do know this that it was so important for Him that He sent His only begotten Son to die. In other words, we’re talking about God being a just God, but He’s also a loving God who sacrificed himself for us. So if He sent His Son, He’s going to move heaven and earth to reach anyone who is willing to come to Him.
Dave:
And let’s take the other side of the coin Tom. What about the millions out there that never heard? Well what about the millions in America who have heard, and in other countries who have heard and have rejected the gospel. And very often the person that raises this question is trying to excuse themselves. Well they have rejected the gospel, but what about those people other there that never heard it and they are trying to excuse themselves. “Shall not the judge of all the earth do right?” And I would just suggest to the person that wrote that, pay attention to your own responsibility before God and be sure that you have embraced the gospel before you worry about others. I’ll leave them to God himself.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation. Please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and T.A.: I find your program interesting, but from time to time you come up with something that floors me. One item is your statement that every person can have a personal relationship with God. I have no particular religious background, but do think that there probably is a Creator. Yet the idea of being buddies with the Creator of everything seems beyond reason. How could that possibly be and especially since, as you have pointed out, God being a spirit which no one can see or approach or something to that effect?
Tom:
Dave I can understand this person’s bewilderment, but it does seem to push credibility to think that we can have a personal relationship with God, but it’s true nevertheless. The first book of the Bible reveals that in no uncertain terms. Adam and Eve had close personal fellowship not only with each other, but with God as well.
Dave:
I guess the questioner is imagining that somehow to have a friendship, a personal relationship with God, you’ve got to be on a par with God intellectually and spiritually and so forth.
Tom:
Yes, that might be the first thing that might hit somebody.
Dave:
Abraham in fact, was called the friend of God. And the Bible says, well in Jeremiah 9:24 God says: “But let him that glorieth glory in this that he understandeth and knoweth me….” And Jesus in John 17:3 said: “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God….” And the Bible says God’s judgment is against those who know not God. So we are in fact, called—all men are called into this relationship with God and God created man in His image. He gave us the capacity to know Him, to love Him, to experience His love, not so that we would not use that capacity that we would just have this experience with one another, but the greatest experience is to know God. Now that doesn’t that I am on a par with God, that I know everything about God, or that He doesn’t need me—it’s God’s grace, God’s mercy that draws me into this relationship. It is not my worthiness of friendship with God.
Tom:
Dave what this questioner is saying—it is an interesting point—but He acknowledges at least to some degree God is Creator. Well if indeed God is Creator, He can as you said, create us with that capacity. He wants—see he’s looking at it from his standpoint rather than from God’s standpoint. But as we go through the scriptures we find numerous scriptures showing fellowship and relationship with the Creator of the universe.
Dave:
I often put it like this Tom, you know wouldn’t it be wonderful—we have name droppers and I can drop the name of some great man, some great athlete, some great political leader or whatever you know as I know that person and people would think wow, wouldn’t it be great if you could know this person or know that person and so forth and yet God wants us to know Him. And Christians are called to this especially, but all mankind is called to this relationship with God. And yet what a tragedy in Isaiah 1for example God says I have raised children and they have forsaken me. They have turned away from me. The ox knows his owner, the ass his master’s crib, my people do not know. He says my people have forgotten me days without number and as Christians may the Lord speak to my heart and to the heart of each one listening. Do I neglect this relationship with God, do I neglect this friendship that he wants me to have. How often do I tell God that I love Him? How often do I commune with Him and really fellowship with Him through His Word and all day long as I’m talking to Him and thanking Him for His grace and mercy? So man is really incomplete without this relationship with God. This is what we were really created for, not just a relationship with one another, but a relationship with God himself. He gave us this capacity; He created us for this and what a tragedy that we really neglect this friendship with God that we ought to be experiencing.
Tom:
Right, Dave we’ve been talking about your book An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith, but our relationship with God is on the basis of the faith that we’ve been talking about. It is difficult in one sense because God is, Jesus they’re not right physically, visibly here with us and that’s sort of the way we think sometimes. That they’ve got to be here. But they are here! Maybe in a way more close to reality than our thinking in a sense.
Dave:
The questioner rightly complains about the idea that we can be buddy-buddy with God. No. We are His close, intimate, personal friends—He loves us. But at the same time, there must be awe and respect, the solemn fear of God. I don’t just put my arm around Him and slap Him on the back and you know—No! God is awesome, frightening, terrifying. He is so great in His holiness and His purity, but at the same time He draws me by His grace and mercy into this personal relationship with Him. So it’s not a buddy-buddy thing and sometimes some of the televangelists for example, you get the idea that they’ve got God by the tail. There doesn’t seem to be any reverence; any fear for God, they can make God do anything they want, they can throw the Holy Spirit around, throw the Holy Spirit at people and knock people down and pick them up and knock them down again and so forth. I don’t see any reverence; I don’t see any solemnity about this. It’s like they’re running the show—it’s showmanship. So we have to be very, very careful. There can be a beautiful, wonderful love relationship with God at the same time there must be respect and awesome reverence.
Tom:
Right.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000, and
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: I’ve been told that the Doctrine of the Trinity is not all that important for Christians for a number of reason: 1) The word cannot be found in the Bible; 2) The Old Testament doesn’t teach it and certainly the Jews don’t believe it; 3) It is so mysterious a concept that no one can fathom it anyway. What do you think?
Tom:
Well, it’s true the word Trinity is not found in the Bible. It’s not true that the Old Testament doesn’t teach it and it is a concept that is really hard to fully comprehend, but nevertheless it must be logically, rationally and so forth.
Dave:
Before we get to that Tom, listening to this statement—“I’ve been told…” that’s how it starts. Told by whom? What are their credentials? Why would you believe them? “Well, I’ve been told that it’s not in the Bible.” Well have you checked the Bible out? Have you checked the Old Testament out for yourself? That’s what this program is all about. Search the Scriptures for yourself. Don’t take our word for it and don’t take somebody else’s word for it and as you said that statement is wrong. The concept is all through the Old Testament. Now, then he ends by saying—he or she—ends by saying “…and its so mysterious.” Well my gracious, everything is mysterious. We don’t know what gravity is, we don’t know what electricity is, we don’t know what an electron is, we don’t know what space is, we don’t know what time is. So to say that something is mysterious and use that as the reason for not believing it just simply isn’t rational. Can you explain God? Well if God is a trinity, this is part of His character. Now you said there are reasons why it must be. You have polytheism on one end and you have monotheism on the other end. But within monotheism those who believe in the Trinity are monotheistic, but there—
Tom:
But we usually think of the Jews who believe one God and Islam—
Dave:
Right.
Tom:
One god.
Dave:
Right, so we have a problem on both ends of the scale here. On the one end-polytheism-you have diversity but no unity. There are many gods but they don’t agree with one another. There’s no head God; there’s nobody to pull this whole thing together. They even fight wars with one another. On the other end you have a lonely God-Allah. One single individual and what many Jews believe Jehovah-one single individual. And until that god created other beings he was incomplete. He couldn’t fellowship, he couldn’t commune, he could—
Tom:
So He needed us in fact.
Dave:
That’s right. He couldn’t love anyone; he could not experience love. But the God of the Bible is three persons; one God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You have both unity and diversity. You have a God of whom it can be said, “God IS love.” You couldn’t say that about Allah. God IS love—He didn’t need to create us. Before any of us were created Father, Son and Holy Spirit loved one another, fellowshipped and communed with one another. Furthermore, in the Shama-“Hear Oh Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.” The very word there is echad—Hear O Israel Yahweh our Elohim (and Elohim is a plural for God); is one Yahweh. And the word for one is echad which means a unity not a singularity, but a unity. Man and woman became “one flesh.” The soldiers became one troop.
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
So it is a unity within diversity, made up of diversity.
Tom:
Right. Now this is Deuteronomy 6:4 that you just quoted.
Dave:
Right.
Tom:
Colossians 2:9 says (in the New Testament) says “…for in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” We are talking about Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Dave:
Well Tom many years ago, I forget his name, Dr. Wood, very interesting book: The Secret of the Universe. He said if God is a trinity and he created the universe we ought to see His fingerprints in it. Well let’s take a look. The universe is made up of three things. Forget Einstein’s fourth dimension for the moment. The universe is made up of space, matter and time. Three things. Those three things are made up of three things. Space is made up of length, breadth, and height. And each one is separate and distinct, but each one is a whole. Draw enough lines lengthwise through space and you take up all of space. What about time? Well time is made up of three: past, present and future. And here it becomes a little more interesting. Because one is visible, the other two are invisible. Just as the Son is visible; the Father and the Holy Spirit are invisible. Now I won’t go on with that but no analogy is perfect. But man is made in the image of God and is made of body, soul and spirit. Again two are invisible one is visible. I don’t know what a soul is; I don’t know what a spirit is. But I know that the God who is love, the God who is complete in himself and didn’t need to create us—He must be more than—He can’t be a single individual—He is a—and the Bible teaches it— You have Elohim, in fact Genesis 1:1 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth…” Well the word there is Elohim. That literally means “Gods” but the created is in the singular. So all through the Old Testament you have a plurality yet a singularity. “Let us make man in our image.” Who is this “us” and this “our”? And at the burning bush it’s Elohim-Gods-who appear to Moses. But Elohim doesn’t say “we are that we are,” but “I am that I am. So you cannot escape it. There is a plurality and yet a singularity all throughout the Old Testament.
Tom:
For those who are struggling with this, even in the New Testament we have chapters 14, 15 and 16 of the book of John. Let me just quote one verse John 15:26 “But when the helper (the Holy Spirit) comes whom I (Jesus) shall send to you from the Father (there we have the Father) the spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of me. There we have Jesus mentioned, referred to twice, the Father referred to twice and the Holy Spirit referred to three times. That’s the Trinity. How else can you explain it.
Dave:
Well Tom they try to say well these are modes or titles and so forth. A mode or a title doesn’t send another one. The Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world and it only makes sense if they are real persons, yet one God.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here is this week’s question: “Your radio program, which I love, has been a tremendous eye opener for me. However, it has also created new problems for me. My spiritual discernment, which was dull at best, is now being fanned into a flame, and I’m now seeing lots of things contrary to the Scriptures which I hadn’t noticed before. What especially concerns me, is that my church is promoting some ideas that have no scriptural basis as far as I can tell. So now, I need your advice on how to approach my pastor. And if I should deal with everything or just the most critical things? Whatever counsel you can give me will be appreciated.”
Tom:
Dave, we get lots of letters like this, people who maybe read an article or just picked it up and started thinking about some things that have gone on, whereas before they just kind of let it slide over them.
Dave:
Or Tom, we have other people who say, Well, I was in the New Age, I was involved in witchcraft or psychology, rebirthing, whatever, and I got saved, delivered from that, and now I joined what I think is a fine evangelical church. They are involved in the same thing, and I try to tell the pastor and he can’t see it.
Tom:
But that’s the problem, I mean, what do people do? We don’t encourage people to just pack your bags and leave. There have to be opportunities, there have to be approaches, at least in part we encourage people to see their pastors, talk to their pastors about these issues, do it in a right spirit, a right heart.
Dave:
Humbly, graciously, not with the idea well, I’m right and you’re wrong but raising a sincere question and pastor, can we go to the Word of God, can you show me where the Bible teaches this, and in fact I think I can show you where it teaches the contrary. But the Bible says rebuke not an elder—this is Paul writing to Timothy—but entreat him as a father. So that’s the attitude with which you should approach your pastor.
Tom:
Dave, there are so many things out there, some things that directly affect the gospel and there are some things that we feel, because they are not true to God’s Word, they may interrupt or reduce somebody’s fruitfulness in the Lord. Can they pick and choose their spots, or is there a perfect church out there, is there a perfect pastor, is somebody going to have it all wired at every level?
Dave:
Well, someone has said if you’re looking for the perfect church and you find it, don’t join it because you will ruin it. Because we’re not perfect ourselves. So furthermore, the things that I understand today ten years ago I did not understand as I do now, and can I be gracious with someone or am I going to demand that everybody must have the same maturity in the faith and the same understanding of everything that I now have, which I once didn’t have. On the other hand, we don’t compromise with the gospel. The gospel is very clear, you don’t have to be a mature Christian to understand the gospel, you understood it as a sinner and came to Christ. So that we cannot compromise on. We keep referring to when Paul rebuked Peter, Galatians 2:14, it says: “When I saw that he walked not uprightly according to the gospel” that was it. So anything that impinges on the gospel that corrupts or perverts the gospel, compromises it, we can’t compromise on that. So it depends what the situation is.
Tom:
Right, you know there are some churches that would tell you right up front that they are Biblical, and they want to be Biblical, and I think if someone is in a church like that they would have an opportunity to search the scriptures with their elders, with the pastor, and find out if these things are so as the Bereans did. On the other hand there are some churches that are openly liberal, openly experiential, and they have no interest or basis for understanding or for sound doctrine, let me say it that way.
Dave:
They don’t even pretend to base everything on the Bible.
Tom:
Now if somebody is in the church like that they’ve got problems.
Dave:
I think they should have left the church already if it’s a church that is not Biblical and doesn’t even care to be Biblical, the pastor is not even a Christian, and there are many like that. Some pastors don’t even believe in the resurrection, they don’t believe the gospel; they don’t believe there is only one way. This is kind of a profession for them and there’s more politics than truth.
Tom:
Dave, now if someone says well, we don’t have a church, a basic Bible believing church in our community, what does someone do like that? You know we get letters from, what I would call lone rangers, who just don’t want to go to church, don’t want to be a part of it, that’s the other problem.
Dave:
Well, first of all they need to examine their own hearts to make certain they are not just being straining at a gnat.
Tom:
Or prideful.
Dave:
Right, or nitpicking or splitting hairs, as they say. Make sure that this is a real issue and that you have gone about this in a gracious, loving, humble manner. But now, if it’s true that there isn’t a church within range, you know, unreasonable amount of driving that is Biblical. Then why don’t they start their own, start a Bible study.
Tom:
A Bible study at least, forsake not the gathering of the brethren.
Dave:
Start a Bible study in your own home, and invite others and win them to Christ, and develop fellowship. There must be, although there may not be a church, surely there must be many believers in that area who are really determined to stand true to the Word God. Well get together, fellowship together, study the Word of God together and seek to win others to Christ.
Tom:
Amen.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: I remember from past newsletters, and I think, one of Dave’s books, that you believe that children who die before the age of accountability, and I’m not quite sure what that is, anyway they go to be with Jesus. Well, if true that can be very comforting, yet I’ve never been comfortable with that biblically. What biblical support do you have for your view?
Tom:
Dave, there are scriptures, we certainly have the example of David and Nathan saying that God is going to take his first child, and the process that David went through, which we can refer to, but what are your thoughts on that?
Dave:
Well, let’s start with David, you mentioned it. David’s son, his illegitimate son from an adulterous affair is very ill. It’s a baby and David is fasting and praying and crying out to God. When the baby dies, well, he’s crying out, of course for the healing of this child. When the baby dies and David can tell by the way his servants, they haven’t told him, but the way they are whispering and the expressions on their faces, David knows the baby has died. He washes, he dresses himself and he asked for some food. And they said, we don’t understand it, when the baby was still alive you were mourning and praying and now that the baby is dead you should be praying even more, you should be even more sorrowful. David says no, I can’t bring him back to me, but I will join him one day. Now unless we think David is in hell—
Tom:
Or he could have been referring to the grave, but not from the tone of what he is saying.
David:
No, no, no, no, he is now happy for this child, he’s not mourning anymore, and the child is with God. Then, “he will not come to me, I will go to him” David says, that’s one expression. Now you could say, well, maybe David didn’t know. Well, I don’t think we would have that in the Bible as a lesson for us if that weren’t true.
Tom:
Let me interject this. I remember Matthew Henry writing about this, and he mentioned that he believed that the baby died on the 7th day before circumcision. And his point is that it was David’s faith in understanding of God, it wasn’t because of some covenant or some seal. That he was trusting in the Lord and his understanding of the Lord rather than—you know, because some would say, for example Catholics would say, well you know, unless they are baptized it’s not official, but we were always brought up to believe that there was limbo for the baby, you had to get the baby baptized right away or it could end up apart from God, happy and in paradise without God. I don’t understand that, but still—
Dave:
And some popes even taught—well, they take it literally, “except you eat my flesh, drink my blood” if you take that literally, then babies that had not—even though they had been baptized, if they had not partaken of Eucharist. Now they went to hell as well, some popes believe that.
Tom:
Right, but there is no covenant here, there’s no seal, there’s no law that’s covering David’s view of this, that’s my point.
Dave:
Circumcision isn’t going to take a baby to heaven anyway; otherwise it would take a lot of people to heaven. Well, there are a number of scriptures, the Bible says—Job says, Shall not the judge of all the earth do right. It doesn’t seem right to sentence to hell a baby that knows nothing of God knows nothing of sin and have never sinned, that doesn’t seem just. Jesus said, “Allow the little children to come unto me, forbid them not, for as such is the kingdom of heaven.” It sounds like children have a step ahead of us as far as getting into the kingdom. Again, because they haven’t rebelled against God, they haven’t disobeyed, they haven’t willfully sinned. Then, Jesus made a strange statement, and I certainly don’t understand it, but I think it’s apropos to what we are talking about. He said "their angels," speaking of children, and I believe that God has an angel looking after us.
Tom:
Hebrews.
Dave:
Right, “Are they not ministering spirits sent forth to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation.” So, Jesus said, “their angels do always behold the faith of my Father, which is in heaven.” Now another reason for believing this is I believe that everyone’s name is written in the book of life, and I have a number of biblical reasons for believing that. And I believe that it is only when they have reached that point where they have rejected the gospel and God knows there’s no hope for them that he blots their name out of the book of life. For example in, I think it’s Exodus 33, God is telling Moses, I’m going to wipe out these people, they are such sinners, and I will make of you a great nation. And Moses pleads with Him; don’t do that, because if you do then the heathen will say that God can’t fulfill his promises. You promised to bring them into the land, and furthermore, Moses says, blot me out, don’t blot them. God says I will blot them out of my book, so they must have been in the book. Now, you’re going to either believe in losing your salvation because the Bible talks about blotting people out and I don’t believe in that. Jesus said, I give my sheep eternal life, they will never perish. That’s a whole other subject, but I believe the Bible teaches eternal security, when we belong to the Lord we are secure. So, if your name is not in the Book of Life and then it’s written in the Book of Life when you get saved and then it can be blotted out, then we have a problem with eternal security. Therefore, for these and other reasons I have given to the conclusion that everyone’s name is written in the book of life because God is not willing that any should perish, he wants all to be saved. Now there’s no reason then for damning a baby that hasn’t sinned, or blotted its name out of the Book of Life.
Tom:
Might so, that would cover accountability. In other words, until the child reaches the point where he knows that he is sinning.
Dave:
When that is, I don’t know, God knows.
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
So I believe that infants, aborted babies, and fetuses even, babies go to be with Christ if they die in that state.
Tom:
And this is your personal view from your search of the scriptures, and we’re not imposing this on anybody else. We want them to search the scriptures so that whatever they do, whatever ideas they have they have it by conviction, by faith.
Dave:
Amen.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and Tom, I’d like to share an experience I had while attending a student music concert at a Christian school and get your comments. While many of the songs were lovely, I almost fell out of my seat upon hearing the first line of “Amazing Grace.” The lyrics were changed from “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me,” to “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved someone like me.” Since when have sinners saved by grace been upgraded from wretches?
Tom:
Dave, the first thing that hits me in this question is amazing grace has been downgraded. That is its not so amazing if the person wasn’t so bad after all.
Dave:
Right. It’s part of the influence of psychology in the church. We don’t want to be negative; we don’t want to put anybody down. Some Christian psychologists go so far as to suggest that you couldn’t even believe that God loves you if you’re unworthy of His love, if you’re wretched. You’ve got to feel that you’re good enough for God to want to save you. That Christ didn’t die for sinners, He died for somebodies. It supposedly gives us a sense of self worth so we can love ourselves and feel good about ourselves and that’s why apparently God loves us. But love isn’t dependent upon the object of love; true love doesn’t just love the lovely; the loveable, but love is in God and God is love. Christ died for sinners, He did die for wretches, and this is what the Bible says. Christ Jesus came into the world to save somebodies or someones? No, to save sinners. If I am not a sinner, I don’t need to be saved. That’s the whole point of the Bible.
Tom:
Dave, Ephesians 2:1-3 I mean it just lays it all. We are dead in trespasses and sin, we once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, we were sons of disobedience, we are after the lusts of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature the children of wrath.
Dave:
And you’re getting this out of the Bible—all this negative stuff? Amazing, isn’t it?
Tom:
Yeah. It doesn’t give a very good image of me. But it certainly exalts, it certainly makes grace “amazing.”
Dave:
Yes it does. And it exalts God for loving us and that Christ would stoop so low, you know? Some would try and say well the price He paid on the cross, that shows what you’re worth and that ought to make you feel good. No, the deeper He had to sink into the horror of what we are—the worse the penalty that He had to pay, which is beyond our comprehension—that stuff doesn’t make me feel good about myself, it’s because I’m unworthy and that gives me a love for God that I couldn’t otherwise have and it’s cause for rejoicing.
Tom:
Well, let’s take John Newton for example, the writer who wrote the hymn “Amazing Grace.” Here’s a guy, I mean he’s a slave trader, a reprobate. He’s absolutely without any redeeming social value as they might say. Why does he write this song? Why does he call himself a wretch? Because he was! Because he recognized how amazing God’s grace is and was.
Dave:
Not only was, but is. Paul said I am less than the least of all saints. He said I am the chief of all sinners. We don’t get beyond that. I will always be a sinner saved by grace. That is what God has done for me.
Tom:
Yes, but psychology would say oh don’t think like that, because if that’s the way you think, then your thinking is going to lead to how you are going to act and how you are going to perform and that’s not good.
Dave:
I tell you, it gives you a greater gratitude, a greater love for God that He would do this for me? Well, Tom let’s put it like this: God speaking through Jeremiah said: The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it? I the Lord search the heart. David in Psalm 139 said “Search me O God and know my heart.” I don’t even know how wicked I am because my heart is deceitful. I don’t even understand sin. I mean, I can think I am doing pretty well, but if I could see things from God’s standpoint… He dwells in a light that no man can approach unto. Whom no man hath seen or can see… God is so far beyond us that for me to imagine that I am doing okay—and sin is defined as coming short of the glory of God—I don’t even understand how short I come from God’s glory! So to try and build me up, to make me feel that then it would be worth it for Christ to die for me—no, He save a wretch. And a wretch is more wretched than he understands, so that song ought to have been made worse and not try to make it better.
Tom:
Right. Dave, let me close with a quote from John Newton. Now you talked about being 74, this is when he was 82. He writes: My memory is nearly gone, but I remember two things. That I am a great sinner and that Christ is a great Savior.
Dave:
Amen!
