contending for the faith
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Someone told me that your ministry, The Berean Call, is pro-Israel and anti-Palestinian, even to the point of denying a Palestinian state for the Palestinian people. If that’s true, how can you call yourself a true Christian ministry? Is that what Jesus would do?
Tom:
Dave I really appreciate the heart and the zeal and I love questions of people who are concerned. They take the time to write because they have real concern, but it also demonstrates to me in a lot of the letters that we get (not every letter) but in some of the letters we get at least, there’s some ignorance or misinformation out there that they are buying into.
Dave:
Yes, first of all Tom I have a problem with the word[s] pro- and anti-. It’s always pro-Israel or anti-Palestinian, no the issue is not our favoritism or our lack of favoritism or our opinion or our prejudices for and against someone or some movement. It is the truth, what does the Bible say? And the Bible clearly says over and over, hundreds of times God says these are my chosen people. Twelve times the God of the Bible calls himself the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Repeatedly he says He gave that land to them forever.
Tom:
Okay, Dave when you say “chosen people” some people go ballistic when they hear that. In what sense does the Bible mean that?
Dave:
This is what the Bible says! And he says he didn’t choose them because they were great or because they were good, but He chose them to demonstrate His grace and His love. He had to choose somebody and He chose them as an example to the world of what He wanted for the people of God. They were to be holy, they were separate unto Him. He gave them a land and they were to demonstrate the relationship of God to man and man to God. They failed, utterly. They were involved in idolatry and all kinds of wickedness and sin and God sent his prophets over and over to warn them of His coming judgment and these people would not heed. I mean God says that they are rebellious people and God says that all day long I held out my hand to a disobedient and gainsaying people. I would have fed you with the finest of wheat, with honey out of the rock I would have satisfied you, but Israel would have none of me and finally the axe has to fall and judgment comes, they are carried away captive and so forth and Jesus said it would happen again, Jerusalem, the temple would be destroyed, it would happen again and that they would be carried away to all nations, but the promises of God are clear. You cannot escape it: Ezekiel 35, 36, 37. We have this people brought back into their land—a full restoration of Israel. Leviticus 25:23: God says the Land is mine and it shall not be sold forever. And He says He has given this to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob forever and that they would be restored to their land, which they have been and the Messiah will return and rule over them there.
Tom:
What about Palestine?
Dave:
Right. There never was a Palestinian nation, Palestinian people, Palestinian language, Palestinian culture, Palestinian religion, it simply is a myth.
Tom:
We tell people to check the history books. This isn’t you, just your opinion.
Dave:
Right, in 135 A.D. the Romans who were in control built a temple to Jupiter on Temple Mount where the Temple had stood and that upset the Jews. Naturally they rebelled and in the rebellion about a half million Jews were killed, the rest were scattered and so forth. And in anger against them, the denunciatory title that they put upon the land of Israel was Syria-Palestina. It comes from the Philistines, Israel’s chief enemy when they first came into the land. It never was Palestine before then, it was the land of Canaan, read the Bible and read the history books. And so this is an idea that they picked up now. Now the Jews who were living in this land, from then on were called Palestinians, believe it or not the Jews were called Palestinians. So in WWII, the British Army had a Palestinian Brigade it was called, they were all volunteers, who were all Jews. There was the Palestinian Symphony Orchestra—they were all Jews. There was the Palestinian Post and it was only after 1948 when the Arabs began to call themselves Palestinians. Now these people are not a separate race; separate nation, they never were. They are cousins, uncles and aunts and sons and daughters of the Arabs all around them. They speak Arabic. They are Muslims. So it’s just a total fraud, but this is the land of Israel that God gave to His people. Now this has nothing to do with being pro-Israel or prejudiced against Palestinians. It simply is the truth and this is what God said and anyone who disagrees—and a lot of Jews don’t believe it. And Muslims certainly are opposed to this and their goal is to exterminate the Jews. Anyone who disagrees with this—they are opposing God and His Word. Jerusalem 40 times in the Bible is called the City of David. David was the King and this is where the new David, the Messiah will rule over His people. Now if Palestinians, if they want to call themselves that, Arabs or Jew or whoever they are—if they want to get in line with God, they better submit themselves to God Word, God’s will and God’s Messiah. It’s not a matter of prejudice, pro or con.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: One of the big issues during this year’s Republican Primary was the fact that Governor Bush spoke at Bob Jones University, an institution which the press characterized as anti-Catholic, intolerant and bigoted. Now I don’t think that the Berean Call is against inter-racial marriage or dating as BJU is, but your organization would also be viewed by the press as anti-Catholic and intolerant. In fact, so would a number of other evangelical ministries I have great respect for. How should a ministry or Christian institution respond to such accusations?
Tom:
Dave, we complain sometimes that people misunderstand what we say or what we write and so on and that goes on and I can understand that. But there is no doubt that there is an attack by the media on evangelical Chrisitanities; on people who take a biblical world view.
Tom:
Tom again to me it’s a matter of simple logic and it’s a bit ridiculous. Is there such a being as God? Did He create us? Does He have any thing to say about it? Does He have any plans for us? Is there such a place as Heaven? Is there life after death? Well, if so, it would seem that from everything that we can analyze around us there would be some very definite rules. I mean it’s like the mind science people, you know? They believe in this universal mind, but this universal mind has no mind of its own. So whatever their positive affirmations, they can impose themselves and they can use like the Star Wars Force. Well I can play the dark side or the light side or and I can use this force to get what I want. Tom it just doesn’t make sense. You were talking about it. Everybody has their own idea about gravity? Everybody has their own idea about atomic energy? Everybody has their own idea about this or that? No, it doesn’t work. So why is it when we come to the realm of—it would seem to be the most important area of all, our eternal destiny, if there is such a thing and God and so forth—if there really is life after death and we could give you all the reasons why there are—bodies wear out, but souls and spirits don’t wear out and the guy who sticks a gun to his head and pulls the trigger—he can be assured of one thing. He stopped the function of his brain cells, but that bullet missed his soul and spirit entirely and that continues to go. Okay, so where will you spend eternity? Okay, it’s a very serious question! Now this is the most serious question anyone can face! And Satan has put such blinders on mankind that when they come to this, suddenly they say oh, I think anything goes. You got your idea, I’ve got mine. And President Clinton in fact, has equated preaching the gospel with religious intolerance and hatred. Now we’ve got a new definition of intolerance. Tom, if you are about to take a dose of arsenic and you don’t know it, and I say Tom, wait a minute, wait a minute, hey don’t take that, it’s arsenic! Am I being intolerant of your right to eat whatever you want to eat?
Tom:
Based on what’s going on today, people could make a case for that Dave.
Dave:
I guess they could, but Tom it’s not rational. I keep saying we’re not only trying to be biblical, but rational as well. The Bible is rational. God says come now and let us reason together. So the idea that I say that I don’t agree with what the Catholic Church teaches, Bob Jones University ought to have the right to be able to do that. I mean people are disagreeing with them, why can’t they disagree with someone else? I disagree with Catholics, why am I called an anti-Catholic? But when the Catholics disagree with me they’re not called anti-evangelicals. Shouldn’t I have the right to point out to someone where I think they’re wrong, where I think especially they’re wrong for eternity and this is really serious. Now why should that be called intolerant. You know what this breeds is the idea that anything goes, it doesn’t matter what you believe, just have your own opinion and that’s okay. It’s like, Tom I’ve used a lot of ridiculous illustrations. You go to a doctor and after he examines you, you say doc what’s the prognosis? Well he says, I wouldn’t be so dogmatic and narrow minded as to come up with a definite diagnosis, what would you like? Open heart surgery has been very popular lately, or I could transplant a kidney. Everybody has the right to the operation of their choice. Well of course everybody has the right to the operation of their choice, but I hope you have enough sense to consult a physician who could provide an accurate diagnosis and prescribe a remedy for your malady and when it comes to eternity that’s very important and you better be sure you’ve got a good physician the Great Physician Jesus Christ, and you don’t have someone who makes a false diagnosis and promotes a remedy that isn’t going to work. To say that it is intolerant to try to present the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is totally irrational Tom and this is where we are going in our society. And it will soon be against the law to even proclaim the gospel.
Tom:
Dave that’s of concern to us, but the absurdity of this I heard on a program the other day. There is a legislator who is really being scrutinized by the body about a comment he made about another man in his legislature. He called him an irreligious left-winger because he’s been…
Dave:
Because he is.
Tom:
Well he is, but they objected to that and they thought this was something intolerant and they were going to go after this guy. Now this guy has been living with a label of “religious right” for a long time, but when he reverses that, somehow that’s intolerant. Incredible!
Dave:
Right, we have right here in our little town of Bend, a professor at our local college who is being put out because he gives creationism as an alternative to evolution. It’s not intolerant—
Tom:
But he doesn’t teach that, he—
Dave:
No—
Tom:
He’s just made the comment that there must be something more than molecules and chemistry out there.
Dave:
Well at least, look Tom, you know the famous Scopes Trial—the whole idea was that you shouldn’t just have creationism, you ought to have evolution too, and now then they’ve got control, no, they through creationism and impose one. But it’s not intolerant for them to impose it, but it’s intolerant for us to say there ought to be an alternative.
Tom:
Yes.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: I have some friends who are going through a church sponsored program which seems to be focused on the healing of memories. From what they tell me it sound more like some psychological encounter group than something biblically based. Are you aware of such a program and if so, can you give me some insights that I can share with my friends.
Tom:
Dave, this has created lots and lots of problems not only in the church, but outside the church. This is really a dangerous endeavor.
Dave:
It sounds like a broken record, Tom to some of our listeners, but let’s get back to the Bible. Where does the Bible talk about healing of memories? This is a Freudian idea that the memories that we have from our childhood are still haunting us and making us do what we—
Tom:
Right, psychic determinism.
Dave:
Right, I don’t find that in the Bible. Paul says for example, “Forgetting those things which are behind…reaching forth unto that which is before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” The Scripture tells us that when we are born again of the Holy Spirit into God’s family and that’s where our unity comes from. All other human beings who have been born again of the spirit of God through faith in Christ, through the gospel are brothers and sisters in Christ and we are united in Him. This says old things have passed away, all things have become new. I am no longer haunted by memories of the past. If there was someone who (for example) I had a grudge against someone who I believe harmed me or wronged me in the past, as a Christian Jesus for example in Mark 11 says: when you stand praying, if you have aught against anyone forgive. Now I don’t need to go back into a hypnotic state and probe back there to find out if I have resentment against someone. I know whether I have or whether I haven’t.
Tom:
And even if we’ve forgotten about it, but it comes to mind someday, it is very simple to confess that before the Lord.
Dave:
We forgive. Now another one of the problems with the healing of memories obviously is and I have talked to people who have had this experience and they came out of it and they felt that they had a great spiritual release and a new outlook on life and so forth—
Tom:
A catharsis of some kind…
Dave:
A catharsis, yes, but then a few months later they sink back into depression or some problem—ah well, there must be another memory back there that we didn’t uncover, so now you are trapped in a delusion. Well there must be another memory, so for the rest of your life you’ve got to go back and probe other memories because every time a problem comes up or you sink into depression or whatever—well it’s got to be that memory back there because you have identified that these memories from the past are the source of your problem.
Tom:
And the memories don’t just necessarily go back to when you were a young child. They take you back into the womb, so-called, some would even take you back into memories of prior lives, I mean this is really horrendous.
Dave:
The Christian supposedly wouldn’t do that, but the psychotherapist would.
Tom:
Well, remember last week we talked about Agnes Sanford. She would say these memories are part of our—
Dave:
Our collective unconscious actually and they go back to a pre-existent state. Yes, she did teach that Tom, you are right. She was founder of the inner-healing movement. The “healing of memories” movement.
Tom:
Right. Dave there is another aspect that comes out of this. I am not specifically sure what this guy had in mind—well he just wants information in regard to what we know about these programs, but the healing of the inner child—I remember when we reviewed Karen Mains book and she had this idea of the inner child of which she was a disciple of Agnes Sanford. She went to a school of pastoral counseling and she promoted these ideas. One of the ideas was that we have an “inner child.” The idea that everybody has a personality within them and this is a very fragile personality and it has to do with the hurts—that you’ve hurt this child.
Dave:
Yes, so I can escape accountability for my actions. It wasn’t really I who did it, but it was my inner child.
Tom:
Or, I did something, for example when you are not forgiving yourself, when you are abusing yourself emotionally, you are speaking bad things about yourself, you are hurting this inner child and the process in some cases, particularly among Christian inner healers is to visualize Jesus walking along with this little child.
Dave:
Again, it is not a biblical concept. Paul says when I was a child, I spake as a child; I thought as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things. There is not a hint that there is still some child still living in there. It comes from psychology. It doesn’t come from the Bible.
Tom:
So our encouragement is to avoid these programs like the plague. Some are minor, but some are promoted in major ways by large organizations. For example, “Cleansing Streams,” that’s one that’s very popular. It began at Church on the Way in Van Nuys, Jack Hayford’s church. It’s currently popular among Four-Square Churches, we have it right here in Bend, Oregon, but these things are psycho-spiritual programs that involve everything from positive confession, to deliverance ministries, to things that are either fringe or heavily occult.
Dave:
And they are not based upon the Word of God and that’s the problem and the Bible is the Manufacturer’s handbook and we’ve quoted many times “he’s given us all things that pertain to life and godliness.” Let’s get back to it, not to these new techniques, but Tom, do we have something that we could recommend on this?
Tom:
Dave, we do in particular with regard to inner healing. We have a book called Abusing Memory which was written by Dr. Jane Gumprecht. That’s Dr. Jane M.D. and she has a fascinating background. She came up through the religious sciences; is a medical doctor, came to Christ and she knows and understands these things and from her background as well as from the Word of God, so I would recommend that.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: I have recently been born-again, looking to and trusting in Christ alone, His death, burial and resurrection for my eternal salvation. Formally I was baptized as an infant. Now I want to follow Christ in everything He demands. Would that include being baptized again? I am confused because some Protestant denominations recommend infant baptism.
Tom:
Dave what is interesting for me as a former Catholic, at one point in my life I thought it was only Catholics that taught infant baptism, but I was really kind of shocked to see that there were some Reformed Theologies that promoted infant baptism.
Dave:
Right, if you went to Europe for example in Scandinavia—well throughout Europe—what happened with the Reformation— Catholicism had been the official state religion. They didn’t call it that, but it was backed by the kings and—
Tom:
Right, it was the religion of the land.
Dave:
That’s right. So now what we had was Protestantism became a new state religion.
Tom:
And these Protestants were Catholics.
Dave:
They had been Catholics and a lot of Catholicism was carried over. So if you went to Europe today you would have either Lutheranism or Catholicism. That’s the state religion. So Denmark for example, or Norway, Sweden—
Tom:
Well what about Presbyterianism. How did that come?
Dave:
These were mostly Lutheran. Presbyterianism came into Scotland. But in Europe you would find mostly Lutherans. So if for example in Switzerland, you have cantons. They are like states. You’ve got a Catholic canton; you’ve got a Lutheran canton. Or they would call it a Protestant. Now the Free church, like the Evangelical Free Church, they came out of the Protestant church, that’s why they call it the Free church. A dear friend of mine in Denmark for example, he calls them four-wheel Christians. They come in a baby buggy to get baptized, then they come in a car to get confirmed, and then they come in another car to be married in the church and then they come in a hearse to be buried in the church and that’s about the only time any of them come to church, really Tom.
Tom:
Because it is a state religion.
Dave:
It’s a state religion. The pastors’ salaries are paid for by the state. Everybody has to pay taxes to support the salary of the state pastors which arouses considerable resentment. And this is why Christianity is hardly worth talking about for most people in Europe. But as far as baptism—
Tom:
And infant baptism in particular…
Dave:
—And infant baptism, right—as far as that is concerned, the Bible teaches believer’s baptism. In Acts 8 the Ethiopian eunuch for example, that was led to Christ by Phillip the evangelist—and they are driving along in his chariot and he says “here’s water, what doth hinder me to be baptized?” Phillip says if you believe with all your heart you may be baptized. Baptism is a sign of something that happened to us. It is our identification with Christ in the death, burial and resurrection. It is not efficacious. If you go into the water and you are not saved, you go into the water a dry sinner and you come out a wet sinner and that is all that has happened. In I Corinthians 1, Paul says Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel. He couldn’t even remember—He says I don’t even remember if I baptized—well yes I baptized the whole household of Stephanas, maybe there were some others, but I am not sure. Now if baptism were essential for salvation he would have been very sure that he baptized these people. But in chapter 4 of I Corinthians Paul says that he is their father in the faith. He says you’ve got a lot of teachers, but not many fathers and I have begotten you through the gospel. But he didn’t baptize them, so if salvation requires baptism, then Paul failed to be their father. He failed to lead them to Christ. In I Corinthians 15 when he says this is the gospel that I present unto you baptism is not mentioned. “…How that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures….” Romans 1:16 says “…the gospel is the power of God unto salvation…” and the gospel does not include a word about baptism. Now there are those who believe that you must be baptized to be saved as an adult. You know when you come to Christ as an adult forgetting that for the moment we are talking about infant baptism. Where do they get this from? Well they get it from the household of Cornelius, when Peter preached the gospel and his household was saved. I am reading from Acts 10:44: “While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.” That “heard” means to hear with understanding. 45) “And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” So they were saved before they were baptized, obviously here. They were indwelt by the Holy Spirit; they were empowered by the Holy Spirit. Now another place where they take this is Acts 16 where the Philippian jailer says “Sirs what must I do to be saved?” And Paul and Silas answered, “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved and thy house.” It doesn’t mean that if you get saved your house is going to be saved. “And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, (notice this) and to all that were in his house.” Now if they preached the gospel to everybody that were in his house, then there were no infants in his house, because you don’t preach the gospel to infants. So this is another place where people say oh yes, but his whole house was baptized. They must have baptized infants. There were no infants present because the gospel was preached.
Tom:
Dave, one other aspect of this—what about the Reformed theologians who talk about infant baptism as a covenant act.
Dave:
Well, they would try to relate it to circumcision for example. Circumcision was for the Jews. It was a sign that God gave to Abraham and how you can say now baptism takes its place or baptism is related to it—there is no such indication in the Bible. It was a physical thing and it was a physical sign and it involved all Jewish people whether they believed in God or not. They were still circumcised and baptism is only for those who are saved through faith in Christ and you can’t preach the gospel to an infant. The tragedy Tom—and I have seen it in Europe—we’ve lived in Europe a couple of times and traveled widely there and I have seen it—a person that has been baptized as an infant and believes that this saves their soul, then they really never get saved. They are not confronted with the fact that they need to believe the gospel and somehow they feel that they have been brought into Christ through infant baptism and it’s a tragedy because it leads them astray. They go through life thinking that they are saved because they are baptized when in fact they are not.
Tom:
Right. So our recommendation to this individual who wrote to us would be that you were baptized as an infant and it’s not biblical baptism. If you want to follow what the Lord says, go and be baptized.
Dave:
Since he has now received Christ. Amen.
Tom:
Exactly.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: I seem to be getting mixed signals in the Christian reading material I receive. Some advocate the creative use of our imagination stating that it’s a wonderful part of our make up which can be used to glorify God and help us reach our potential in every area of our Christian walk while you seem to have almost nothing positive to say about it.
Tom:
Well Dave we have talked about the imagination and it’s a big problem.
Dave:
They accuse you or me or both of us of having—
Tom:
I think we both could take some credit here.
Dave:
—Almost nothing good about the imagination. I would suggest they be Bereans—that is what this program is all about-“search the scriptures daily.” You can search the scriptures daily today, tomorrow and from now on until the Lord comes and you are not going to find anything in the Bible that is positive or favorable about imagination. And you can start—
Tom:
Alright Dave I want to jump on this right up front. Now you are a creative guy. You’re a writer; you write fictional novels. How could you do that without an imagination? I mean are we talking about—do you get my point here? Are we talking about some different things?
Dave:
Okay, let’s go to the Bible and then we’ll get back to what you are talking about Tom. Remind me.
Tom:
I’ll be here, I’m waiting.
Dave:
Go to Genesis 6:5: God looked down and he saw that the imaginations of man’s heart were only evil continually. Chapter 8 He says basically the same thing. From his youth his imagination is evil. Chapter 11 He comes down at the tower of Babel and he scatters them, confounds the language and scatters them because He says whatever they imagined they will be able to perform. Now you are reminding me that there are some good uses of imagination. You are an architect, an engineer or whatever and I have even used visualization for memorization. I don’t bother with it any more, it’s too much trouble. This is how they do it. You have some memory expert and you give them a whole string of words and numbers and so forth and he can come out with them forward or backwards because he’s using visualization.
Tom:
He’s using association with an image.
Dave:
Right and those images connection on with another and you can become an expert at that. So there is nothing about the occult—no occult undertones or anything like that. So, yes there are good uses of the imagination. When I write a novel I try to paint a picture so that the person can put themselves—they can see what is going on. However, imagination is very dangerous. Little children get involved in their imagination and they can even have imaginary playmates that they play and all kinds of things, but you know we all recognize—even secular people when you grow up you ought to leave those imaginary playmates and stop living in your imagination and [there are] some people who live in their imagination and can’t face the real world.
Tom:
Well they are institutionalized. My father was a psychiatrist. I grew up in that environment. That was the heart of it. They lost contact with reality, because they were trying to create reality in their own mind.
Dave:
So now we have a problem because for example, Keith Miller in his book The Table of Inwardness, chapter 7 begins with these words: “One door opens into the world of the spirit: imagination.” And then he tells us that is how we get in touch with God, this is how we learn spiritual truths and so forth is through our imagination. No, our imagination is only going to create that which comes from us.
Tom:
Right, we are the god of this realm in which we call the shots, we see things the way we want to see them, we come up with ideas.
Dave:
Right.
Tom:
It is not connected to God’s Word, to the reality, the content of the faith.
Dave:
So there are even those who teach you that you need to learn to use your imagination, put yourself in the picture you know, you are reading about Christ teaching the Sermon on the Mount picture and put yourself there—no my imagination is not going to help me, it is only going to lead me astray when I try to apply it in this realm. Furthermore, the imagination is the fastest way into the occult. This is how the witch doctors have always done it. They pick up their spirit guides and so forth. So all we are saying is imagination, although it has some benefits, some legitimate uses, (and we are not putting that down). It is very dangerous for many reasons, even from a practical standpoint but it also is the doorway into the occult and God condemns the imagination all through the Bible. In fact He doesn’t even say anything good about it and we are saying something good about it. So if we get back to the Bible and we search the Scriptures daily, then we are going to find for example we’ve quoted Jeremiah 13:10: “This wicked people who refuse to hear my word and follow the imagination of their own heart.”
Tom:
Dave, to go back to the imagination with regard to what we would say would be reasonable uses of it. I don’t believe that God condemns that, but I think for those who are a little confused about this—the imagination has to be consistent with what God’s Word says. You know we come up with ideas, the scripture calls it a stronghold. We can have ideas and thoughts which are not true to God’s Word; the knowledge of Him. That’s a concern that we have.
Dave:
When I say that God’s Word doesn’t have anything good to say about it, it’s not that God’s Word intends to say anything good about it, but it is bringing correction to the occult uses of it and that’s what we are talking about.
