contending for the faith

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above. For more listening options, please see our Radio Page

            Gary:

You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation.  Please stay tuned.  We return now to our program series from 2000 and:

 

CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of the Berean Call.  Here’s this week’s question.  “My church seems to believe that one must be a scholar or a theologian to be a pastor or a credible Christian author or Bible teacher.  It even seems to be implied that those without such degrees are not competent to question what those holding theological and now, even psychological degrees, teach from the Bible.  That sounds to me like elitism.  What is your opinion?”

            Tom:

Well, it’s an interesting question and we’re not against somebody really seeking out through study, earning a degree.  Is there anything inherently wrong with that, Dave?

            Dave:

It depends on what the degree is in of course.

            Tom:

That’s true.

            Dave:

Education isn’t going to harm you but what we need is a little common sense.  But as far as needing some special education to be able to tell what the Bible says, I think a little common sense tells you that isn’t true.  Certainly Paul didn’t have that special education.  I don’t even know what education Paul had.  Certainly, Peter, a fisherman, you know, and James and John didn’t have it, that is…

            Tom:

But the Galileans stunned them didn’t they?  With what they understood and what they knew?

            Dave:

That is elitism and, of course, that’s how cults are formed.  That’s religion really and that’s how religious leaders keep their followers in bondage. “Well, you can’t understand, you don’t know, you don’t have my degree.”  And of course, Christian psychology is the ultimate in that, because not only do they know theology, they know psychology and because the ordinary person doesn’t have a comprehension of that then you can’t check them out.  I hope most of the listeners know by now, our ministry is called, The Berean Call, and we use that title because of Acts 17:11.  There, it says the Bereans checked Paul, the great apostle Paul,—these are ordinary people in Berea, a town north of Greece—and they checked the great apostle Paul out from the Bible to see whether what he said was true.  So that tells me that the Bible must have been available to them, it must have been understandable to them and that there is no one, not even the apostle Paul, who we look up to as the great authority in interpreting the Bible, and Paul himself said that in writing to the Corinthians.  Paul writes to Timothy, for example, 11 Timothy 3:15:  From a child you have known the holy scriptures which are able to make you wise unto salvation.  Psalm 119:9.  We will probably quote these many times.

            Tom:

They are important.

            Dave:

They are.  “Wherewithal shall the young man cleanse his way?  By taking heed thereto according to thy Word.”  It doesn’t say anything about a young man going to a rabbi, consulting him.  And Jesus quoted to Satan in the temptation in the wilderness: “Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”  So, that brings us back to the Kabalah, you know.  If there are secrets in there, or the Bible code today, if you’ve got to have a sophisticated software program to find out what the Bible—some secret message in the Bible—then it wouldn’t be available to any human being, any normal person or a child, so that’s not it.  The Bible is available to us.  It’s not that anybody has an exclusive franchise on explaining the meaning of the Word of God.  And Paul writes to the Corinthians and he says, “Let the prophets speak two or three by chorus and let the others judge.”  You must judge.  Anyone out there listening right now, you must judge what I say.  You must judge what Tom is saying, not from your own—well, you have to have some common sense—but from the Word of God, okay?  So, for some elitist to say that he has a degree that you don’t have, therefore, you’ve got to believe what he says.  No, that is contrary to the Word of God and common sense.

            Tom:

And the other side of this is, some people like it that way.  They just want people with the credentials so they can be confident.  So really, they don’t have to search the Scriptures themselves and that’s sad.

            Dave:

Okay, that is not only sad, Tom, but you’ll never be able to stand before the Lord.  God says, Why did you do this?  And you say, well, Dave and Tom, I mean, they explained it and it sounded like they knew what they were talking about.  God says, Look, I’ve given you common sense, I’ve given you my Word, I’ve given you the Holy Spirit if you are a Christian and you cannot abdicate your own moral responsibility to know what is right and put it off on somebody else and say they were the experts and so I followed them.  That won’t go with God.

 

 

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above. For more listening options, please see our Radio Page.

            Gary:

You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us.

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature Dave and Tom address questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call.  Here is this week’s question:  Dear Dave and Tom:  I’ve been reading your books for years now, going all the way back to Dave’s Peace, Prosperity and the Coming Holocaust and The Seduction of Christianity, by the both of you nearly a quarterly century ago.  One thing I find curious is that over the years you have addressed movements that focus on restoring the earth, from the Latter Rain and Kingdom Dominionist of the charismatics to the Reconstructionist Movement of the Reformed theologians and Calvinists.  My question is, Do you see these ideas coming back today through Rick Warren’s global agenda, and those promoting The Emerging Church Movement?

            Tom:

Dave, I see the same thing, I mean, we could go all the way back to John Calvin in Geneva.  I mean, this was going to be a Christian utopia right on earth, right?

            Dave:

Yeah, Tom, it’s astonishing!  We’re going to build a kingdom here and then turn it over to the Lord?  This is what the Reconstructionists believe.  Somehow, we are going to reshape this world so that Christ will be pleased with it and then He will return to rule over it?  It’s a theme that you find in Rick Warren, his Peace Plan.  What is this about?  It comes right out of, as we have often quoted, John 3:17, in Peterson’s The Message.

            Tom:

Well, let me quote it for our listeners.  “God didn’t go to all the trouble of sending His Son merely to point an accusing finger telling the world how bad it was, He came to help to put the world right again.”  And supposedly, that’s John 3:17. 

            Dave:

Yeah, what does John 3:17 say, let me quote it: “For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world: but that the world through Him might be saved.”  And in paraphrasing others, fixing it up, expanding it, Eugene Peterson, what does he do?  He destroys it, he changes the meaning.

            Tom:

He has an agenda here, Dave, and it’s anti-biblical.

            Dave:

Absolutely, but this is one reason, must be one reason, why Rick quotes The Message so often in The Purpose Driven Life because this is what he is intending to do.  He didn’t give that away at the very beginning, but  you could have wondered.  You see, what this does, Tom—Well, we’ve been talking about “Not by works.” What was it to the level now?  Man is going to do this, and isn’t it nice that Jesus was sent into the world to help us make the world right.  How are we going to do this?  Well, we’re back to the same old problem, “not by works of righteousness that we’ve done” and so forth.  So, here we are, we’re going to build a new world?  This is what Rick now is trying to do.

            Tom:

Dave, let me just add this.  What we are seeing here, we talked about Latter Rain,  Christian Reconstructionism for the non Charismatics, the Reformed Theologians, and so on, but this was all oriented toward the church.  In other words, the reconstructionists they were theonomous, they were going to apply the law, and when people saw how Christians were applying the law they were going to be impressed by that, because that’s what was going to bring about changing the earth into a paradise.  But now what we are seeing, and we’ve seen this lately from Rick Warren is we are going to work with all religions.  I’ll give you a quote here:  This I  believe he was interviewed by a Pittsburgh paper, he says:  “Who’s the man of peace in any village?”  The idea is that he started out by saying, There’s a church in every village.  They don’t have schools, they don’t have this they don’t have that, but every village has a church, and if we can put them together as distribution points for things like medicine and for teaching and for education and all of that, that’s how we’re going to solve the world’s problems, what  he calls, the global giants.  Well anyway, he says:  Who’s the man of peace in any village?  It might be a woman of peace who has the most respect.  They don’t have to be Christian, in fact, they could be Muslim, but they are open and they are influential and you work with them to attack the five giants.  And by he way, he started out with five giants and then he has added another one which is global warming.  He quotes a secular leader who affirms what he is doing.  She says:  “I get it, Rick, houses of worship are the distribution centers for all we need to do.” Now, Dave, the grievous part of this, the tragic part is that when  you work with other religions aren’t you saying to them, look, you can please God by doing something for the common good.  You are people of faith and as long as you’re doing this to the glory of Allah, or Brahman, or whoever, Kali, you know, this is a good thing.

            Dave:

Tom, this has been going on for a long time.  Pat Robertson talked about people of faith, and Bush has talked about people of faith.

            Tom:

Yeah, the Faith Initiative, that was part of his legacy, he believes for his tenure.

            Dave:

Yes.  People of faith, we’ve been into that before, people of faith.  What do you mean by faith?  Faith in whom”  What God are we talking about?  Well, now, tragically, it seems that Rick has joined this crowd, because this is the popular way to go, and it doesn’t matter, what do you believe in?  Well, the local witchdoctor—why he’s a man of faith too.  It could be, you’ve pointed out, it could be the local imam.  People of faith—so long as you have some kind of faith, religious faith, then you’re okay.  God will accept that, you’re on your way to heaven, we don’t need to give you the gospel.  That’s the great tragedy.  So, when we are joined together with these people in this common cause it seems so good, we’re working toward a good end, a better world, and we’re going to work together on it.  But then, as you point out, Tom, then we are giving them the impression that they have the same faith that we have, and the same God, or it doesn’t really matter.

            Tom:

And Dave, they are being saved by their works, that’s what they have to come to believe.

            Dave:

That’s right, and we are leading these people to hell!

 

 

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above. For more listening options, please see our Radio Page.

Gary:

You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned.  Now:

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature, Dave and Tom address questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call, here’s this week’s question:  Dear Dave and TA, I haven’t been a committed Christian very long so I am continually learning what Christianity is all about.  Some things are difficult to understand, for example, the role of suffering is perplexing.  I grew up Roman Catholic and suffering was a way to expiate one’s sins.  I now know that’s impossible, no one could do anything to take away his own sins because the penalty for just one sin is eternal separation from God.  Temporal suffering can neither satisfy the penalty nor the perfect justice God’s character demands.  So, what is the value of suffering, which the apostle Paul tells us over and over that it is something good for believers to experience?

            Tom:

Dave, like this person who gave us this question, you know, I grew up Roman Catholic, and that’s what we believed.  I mean, the saints, the most exalted saints, highly esteemed saints were those who suffered the most.  We had cards, devotional cards with those saints on them.  We collected them like baseball cards, well not exactly, but I had my stack, and as I said, the most honored saints were those who suffered the most.  Yet, when we look at the Scripture, Paul doesn’t back away from suffering, over and over and over again he talks about the value of suffering, so can you comment on that?

            Dave:

Well, Tom, of course you were speaking from a Catholic’s perspective there for a few moments, and when you said, saints, you meant Catholic saints.

            Tom:

Right.

            Dave:

You get voted in.

            Tom:

Canonized.

            Dave:

Right and you get the approval of the church, you know, and they check you out and here and there, and so forth, that is not a saint.

            Tom:

Well, they can always check you out; some of them have lost their positions.

            Dave:

O, yeah, well, a few of them have fallen.

            Tom:

How do you explain that, because they never existed?  One would be Saint Christopher, the Christ-bearer who lost his position.

            Dave:

Saint Christopher fell right off the dashboard, didn’t he?

            Tom:

I guess, he was in elevators all over the place, although that’s still popular among surfers today.  Seriously, I was in Hawaii earlier in the year and it’s a very popular medal, a little side track.

            Dave:

Yeah, but what does the Bible say?  Well, if we take a look at Ephesians, to the saints of Ephesus.  The Bible says saints are living people.  Why are we called saints?  Because saint means set apart, sanctified, different from everyone else, and the Christian is supposed to live a sanctified, holy—be ye holy for I am holy, God said.  We are supposed to live holy lives, saintly lives, but you don’t get voted in for this.  Every Christian, no matter what kind of a life he lives, if he is truly saved, if he is born again—we get that in 1 Corinthians Chapter 3, for example.  Your works, everyone’s works are going to be tested.  And here’s a man (it’s hard to imagine), we know by their fruits we shall know them.  It seems that we should examine their deeds to know is this person a real Christian?  And yet, Paul tells us there could be some people when you examine their works they are all burned, and nothing of any value because they have wrong motive, or there is pride at the time, or who know what—sin was in their heart.  And yet Paul writes, “…yet he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire…” if he is really, truly built on the foundation, which is Christ alone.  Well, what is the value of suffering?  It doesn’t make a saint out of me, I become a saint when I am born again.  The value of suffering, Tom, I think you’ve been through quite a bit here recently, I’ve been through quite a bit, although, my  gracious, when it comes to Paul’s suffering, we don’t even come close.  What does suffering do?  You’ve gone through this Tom, ever tempted to complain?  God why?  Why me?  Why is this—and it doesn’t make sense.  So suffering brings you closer to the Lord, it causes you to appreciate His suffering, it has a purifying effect.  Lord—well, let me examine my heart, Lord, why am I here?  Well, maybe, you know, it doesn’t mean that every time you suffer that that means you must have sinned.  But I’ll tell you, it causes me, and I’m sure you, to examine my heart.  Lord, I thought I was doing pretty well, but now I can see pride where I didn’t see pride, I can see problems where I didn’t see problems, and it gives us time to reflect and it puts us in God’s hands.  Lord, whatever happens, as Job said, “Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.”  It’s a time when we can make a fresh surrender.  We talked about surrender.  Lord, whatever happens I surrender to you.

            Tom:

Dave, I know one of the things that I have learned, and then you were referring to, for those people who don’t know, I’ve had major surgeries, I’ve got another one coming up.  I tell you my empathy, my sympathy for people who are going through physical issues, afflictions, illnesses and so on, I mean, it’s just huge now.  It’s been a comfort to me, I mean, this is hard to say, it’s not like misery loves company, but as I think about them I’m thinking I can be thankful for where I am in the Lord with regard to—I call mine discomfort. But I see people in real pain, and my heart and my sympathy and my wanting to comfort them as the Lord as comforted me. I’ll tell you, it’s right there.

            Dave:

It also makes you thankful.  God, you have been so good to me.  I thought this was I had a problem.  No, this is nothing, and You have been so merciful.

 

 

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page.

            You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still to come, Dave and Tom resume their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us. Now:

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature, Dave and Tom address questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call, here’s this week’s question:  Dear Dave and Tom:  One of the biggest problems I have when trying to share my biblical beliefs with non Christians, is when I tell them that Jesus is the only way to be reconciled to God.  Many of them cannot accept the exclusiveness of Christianity and balk at the idea that God would not accept the billions of sincere people in other religions.  What can I tell them?

            Tom:

Dave, this issue of God, the God of the Bible, claiming, which He does over and over again, that He is he only way, that His gospel is the only gospel, the only possible way for mankind to be saved, Jesus is the only way.  Jesus said:  “I am the way the truth and the life, no man come to the Father but by Me.”  We have verse after verse, plus we have man, the condition of man, as we explained in the first segment, beyond hope.  Only God can step in and do this, and He has, the Cross took place 2,000 years ago.  Jesus paid the full penalty for our sins.  Yet we are finding, if you remember, a number of weeks ago there was the PU Foundation that did a survey, and somewhere between 53 and 57 %, I think it was 57% of evangelicals claimed that they believed there was more than one way to God than biblical Christianity.

            Dave:

Well, Tom, you could claim that all you want, you can claim:  Well, I don’t think the Law of Gravity really works everywhere.  How about, let’s fly over this spot and now I’ll jump out of an airplane without a parachute and you’ll see the Law of Gravity—  No, well, there’s got to be some exceptions, I mean, you can’t— Tom, just let me give you an example.  I don’t think I’ve mentioned this at least for a long time.  There is a law called the Law of Biogenesis, it is a law, okay.  It’s accepted by everyone, they don’t deny it, and it says:  Life only comes from life.  Okay?  Let me quote George Wall, Nobel Prize winning scientist, a Harvard professor.  He says:  Yeah, we know that this Law of Biogenesis, we all accept that, and you can’t violate that, but I mean, look, it says life only comes from life, and if you accept that, then the only way you’re going to get life is from life and that’s pointing to a supernatural act of God, and we will not accept God!  Okay?  Now you can say, What about the heathen who never heard about this?

            Tom:

Billions, and Dave, just to interject this, you mentioned Rick Warren, he’s a

Davos in the world economic forum, and one of his points that he is making, in terms of his global peace plan is that people of faith, all religions, they constitute 5/6^th of the world’s population.  Now these are people of faith, Dave, you’re telling me God has just written off billions and billions of people?  It’s hard for people to accept that.

            Dave:

Yeah, let’s deal with that, because it’s a question often asked, it seems so unfair.  Well, have not they heard, the Bible says yes, the heavens declare the glory of God.  This language has gone everywhere, okay.  Now, everyone knows from the testimony of the universe it didn’t happen by chance, everybody knows that!  These atheistic scientists know it, they are trying every way they can to deny this.  I mean, you want to take the space program, what’s the basis for the space program?  We’re going to find life somewhere out there, and we’re going to show them that there is not uniqueness to this earth, and it could have happened by natural means.  The basis of all their programs is—why are they digging up this world everywhere, like Malikis, or whoever it is.  They are determined they are going to find somewhere, some evidence it’s not true—God didn’t create man in His image, He didn’t create this universe.  Tom, I’ve studied this so much until it comes out of my ears, it makes me sick.  What is the whole thing about?  Atheism!  We’ve got to somehow prove God doesn’t exist.  It is in the heavens, it is everywhere, and the Bible says they are all without excuse.  Now does that include the savage in the South Pacific island or somewhere, never heard about Jesus.  No, it’s in his conscience, and Romans chapter 2 tells us that the law of God has been written in every human conscience!  Everybody knows they’ve sinned that they cannot possibly—everybody knows you can’t wipe the slate clean.  You can’t wipe out sin by doing good deeds, it won’t work.  Try it with a judge.    Judge, I promise, scouts  honor, let me off this time, I’ll never ever, ever break the law again.  The judge says, well what do we do about the fact that you have already broken the law.  If you keep the law perfectly from now on, which you couldn’t, you don’t get extra credit for that, that’s what you are required to do.  And you know it in your conscience, everyone knows it.  So Tom, I’m sorry, I waxed a little bit hot about that, but this is so common that people believe and accept and they use it as an excuse.

            Tom: 

Dave, going back to—you were talking about atheists—what about the people of faith, all the different religions in the world, those who think that they are  moving toward God, or being drawn toward God, or seeking God out.

            Dave:

It’s written in their conscience, they know they can’t do it, it’s in every human conscience.  So Tom, they are also trying by good works, whatever it is—

            Tom:

Sacrifices, rituals, you name it.

            Dave:

Call it whatever you will.  And that Rick Warren would fall into this trap as others have, people of faith.  Pat Robertson had it oh let’s get all people of faith together.

            Tom:

President Bush?

            Dave:

Yeah, people of faith, what do you mean, faith, what kind of faith, Buddhists, Hindu, Muslim?  So Tom, we’ve done away with the gospel—I am THE way, THE truth, THE life, no man comes to the Father but by Me.  And Christians, in the name of Christ have done away with this, and now we are really in trouble, in the church and in the world.

 

 

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page.

            You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still ahead, Dave and Tom resume their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay tuned.

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature, Dave and Tom address questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call, here’s this week’s question:  Dear Dave and Tom, I know you guys have talked a lot about a person’s will, so maybe you can help me here.  I just read Romans Chapter 7, and I’m confused.  How can Paul say that when he sins it’s not longer him that’s doing it, but it’s the sin that dwells within him?

            Tom:

Dave, I could read Romans Chapter 7:15-25, really that’s the context, but let me go right to the verse that this person that wrote to us is asking about.  Romans 7:19, “For the good that I would I do not:  but the evil which I would not, that I do.  Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.”

            Dave:

Hmm, you’ve got some people really thinking out there, Tom.

            Tom:

Which is good.

            Dave:

Sending in these things.

            Tom:

We encourage that, don’t we, Dave, some thinking Christians, or even those who don’t call themselves Christians but are really seeking after truth.  We need more of that today.

            Dave:

I think what Paul is saying is, when Adam and Eve sinned, and of course Adam’s sin was worse than Eve’s, she was deceived, the Scripture says, he was not deceived, he knew what he was doing, but he didn’t want to lose Eve.  If she died and he’s still on God’s side…so Eve was more important than God, and that can come up.  A young Christian lady, she falls in love with an ungodly man, and will not listen to council and just insists.  Well now, what caused her to do that?  Well it was self, I want my own way.  But I’m really not in charge of myself because I’ve become the slave of sin.  So, sin that dwells in me causes me to do this.  I think this is what Paul is saying.

            Tom:

Dave, it’s just like the Scripture lays it out clearly, we’re a new creature in Christ, a new creation.  Yet we still have that old creature; that old nature.  Is he talking about the battle between the two, the old man, the new man?  As somebody who is in Christ he has the ability and you would say the will to deal with these issues, but he’s still fighting the flesh, the old man, the old creature.

            Dave:

He says, “It’s sin that dwelleth in me.”  Now what is sin?  How would we define it, how did we first meet sin?  It’s rebellion against God, and it’s a desire for self, self is now on the throne.  And you mentioned it earlier, self- esteem, self-acceptance, self-love, self-motivation, the whole thing, so, it’s a bit difficult to define.

            Tom:

It’s called the mystery of iniquity.

            Dave:

Right.  So here I am, Paul says, I really—it’s like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.  I’d say, God, this is what I really want.  But then I turn around and do what I don’t want to do, but something is compelling me.  It’s called the sin nature.

            Tom:

Right.  Well, Dave, as you know, in Chapter 8—well, we’re led toward the end of Chapter 7, Paul calls out:  “O wretched man that I am!  Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?”  In other words, if I give way, or let me say it another way, if I am not really walking with Christ, all right, and obeying the Spirit of God within me, and the Spirit of God enables me to be obedient, but if I drift away from that my old nature is going to have the better of me here.  So, he says, “O wretched man that I am!  Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?  O thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.  So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.”

            Dave:

And Paul tells you how and where he found the victory.  He says:  I am crucified with Christ.  If the death of Christ was just another idea well, Jesus is a wonderful example, let’s follow Him, try to be like Jesus, the imitation of Christ, Thomas Acampus way back there. 

            Tom:

Dave, I have to interject this, we were talking about the social gospel.  That’s where the idea came from, What Would Jesus Do?  That was part of the social gospel, it’s a works thing. 

            Dave:

I knew a basketball player, what would WWJD—

            Tom:

That’s where he got it; it comes from the social gospel.

            Dave:

What would Jesus do?  And I would say he did not follow what Jesus would do.  But anyway, it was just a popular saying.  So Paul says there is a genuine struggle.  In other words I could reason with a person.  You’ve got a glass of vitamins and here we’ve got a glass full of poison, and here’s a guy sitting there.  I know the poison is going to kill me, I know the vitamins would really help me, but the poison tastes so good, I just can’t resist it.  Just the intellect is not going to help you unless something has happened through the Cross and your faith in Christ, you are a new person, you have been crucified with Christ.  I died in Him, now He has become my life, there is no hope otherwise.

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page.

TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROGRAM:

            You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still to come, Dave and Tom resume their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us.

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature, Dave and Tom address questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call, here is this week’s question:  Dear Dave and TA, Frankly I am confused by a book that is very popular among my circle of Christian friends, it’s titled, The Shack, and although it is endorsed by some leading evangelicals, I was freaked out by it, and couldn’t actually finish it.  I don’t understand how anyone thinks he can put God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit in a fictional situation, and then have them speak the words out of  his own imagination.  Isn’t this dead wrong?

            Tom:

Now Dave, I know you haven’t read The Shack, you’ve been working night and day on your book, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny.

            Dave:

I’ve heard about it, Tom, probably know quite a bit about it.

            Tom:

I’ve read it, I struggled through it, but in case you haven’t read it, I just want to run some things by you, and just kind of get your comments.  Well, first of all, it’s a book that claims to be fiction, although you can’t really tell.  It’s like mixing theology and some concepts, some beliefs that we might agree with, with some fiction.  But basically what you have is a man in the story, he gets a note from God.  He’s gone through great trauma in his life, he’s lost his daughter to a heinous kind of murder, so he’s carried this guilt and concern because maybe he could have saved his daughter, and so on.  So he’s go this real burden that he’s been carrying, and he’s sort of been blaming God for this.  But then, supposedly he gets a note from God, to come back to the place where the murder took place, and God is meeting him there, but not just God the Father, or Jesus, or the Holy Spirit, but all three.  So you have in this story this man interacting with the Trinity and you have the Trinity.  I’ll just give you my synopsis of those that he meets with.  He conjures up God the Father as a hip talking now and then crude black woman referred to as Pappa.  And Jesus as a sometimes inept stone skipping good ole boy enamoured with  his humanity and creation, and the Holy Spirit as a wisp of a woman from Asia who gardens and collects tears.  Now, anybody reading the book would say, Well, that’s your evaluation, but that in reality we have the Holy Trinity, okay, God the Father and the Holy Spirit as women, dressed in women’s clothes, interacting with this guy.  What do you say to that?

            Dave:

Well, Tom, I refused to read it.  I know you had to, to answer the question, but this is abomination from beginning to end, and it’s a sign of the times in which we live.  Can you imagine a black woman, black or white, or whatever?

            Tom:

And Dave, it’s not even consistent with having God use a dialogue of a black woman.  It’s just ludicrous, even from writing’s standpoint, but go ahead.

            Dave:

Well, you’re not supposed to make an idol, you’re not supposed to make any representation of God.  Now this is the worst kind of misrepresentation you could have.  A living idol of someone who is, supposedly, they say God came in this form now?  The Father came in this form?  And the Holy Spirit in the form of an Asian woman?  And Jesus is kind of inept?  He is enamoured with his humanity, and so forth?  Tom, this is—I don’t have words to express it!  This is blasphemy of the worst sort.  And yet that evangelical supposedly, Christian bookstores and churches!

            Tom:

Well, Christians have pushed the sales, at this recording, over a million, and it’s really a  hot item.  I’ve talked to some people that said their friends keep passing it around, and they just love it.  One of the attractions, Dave, I mean, you are repulsed by it and so was I, but one of the attractions of this book is that God explains himself.  So there is a lot of theological dialogue of God saying, well the reason I did this, and the reason I did that, none of which you find in the Bible.

            Dave:

I’m sure it would not ring true to who God is.

            Tom:

Oh without a doubt.

            Dave:

So, they are demeaning God, they are presenting a false picture of God.  An author who writes that, he ought to tremble.  He is going to stand before this God that he misrepresented, stand before Him in judgment, and the people who loves it, they will stand before God in judgment as well.  They’ve got a false idea of God in their minds, they allowed—

            Tom:

Dave, I mean, it runs the whole gamut.  Now this is a God who has been reduced to somebody that we can get along with.  In our earlier segment, you talked about going down on your face before God.  There is no sense of that reverence or awe, humility at all in this book.  I mean, here’s a god you get comfortable with.  You know, you get comfortable with Jesus, and then you know, they are very human.  We have reduced them to our stature really in this book.  Not we have, but the author has.

            Dave:

Well, Tom, I tremble for this man, and I tremble for those who  read it, for those who recommend it, those who—what could be going through a person’s head as they read this?  This is a representation of God?  It couldn’t be worse, and to even entertain that thought…  You see, the problem is, Tom, it corrupts the mind, it corrupts the heart, it corrupts one’s idea, comprehension of God.  We’re not to even make an image in our mind.  We’re  not to make any image of God, no representation of God.  So this is blatant disobedience of the very first commandment, You shall have no other gods before me.

            Tom:

Now Dave, one last point about this book which is, I think, talk about no fear of God.  Who would dare speak for God?  Now we have a dialogue, we have God in dialogue with this other character in the book, whether it be God the Father or Jesus or the Holy Spirit, who would put words in their mouth?  Who would dare to do that?  But we see this trend.  You have books out there now, Jesus in conversation with Confucius, or with Buddha, and so on.  I mean, this is Ravi Zacharias, you know, who did that.  We have Eugene Peterson, which we’ve dealt with over and over again, but that’s what his bible, The Message is all about.  He puts his own words in God’s mouth, and then have the nerve to say, Thus sayeth the Lord.  No, this is Eugene Peterson sayeth, not God.

            Dave:

Tom, you couldn’t denounce it more strongly.  I mean, there is no way you could denounce it strongly enough.  This is blasphemy, this is apostasy and the fact that the church goes for it, or many in the church, that is just absolutely incredible! 

            Tom:

Dave, evangelical leaders . . we do a Q & A on this, which I name them, let’s just look to Eugene Peterson.  His quote, his endorsement of the book is the featured endorsement right on the cover.  And, he says, “This book has the potential to do for our generation what John Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress did for his.  It is that good.”   Wow! 

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily.You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page .

            You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still ahead, Dave and Tom resume their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned. 

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature, Dave and Tom address questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call, here’s this week’s question:  Dear Dave and TA, Will you please answer the following questions:  Is it scientifically true that our minds are composed of two parts, the conscious and the subconscious mind?  Is it true that the subconscious mind is the one that regulates most of our actions?  Is it true the subconscious mind is also in charge of our learned behavior? 

            Tom:

Well, first of all, the mind, which is, what do we say Dave? The realm of our thoughts is a non physical, the non physical part of the human makeup.  So it’s not to be confused with the brain, we’ve talked about that before, which is a physical organ within the body.  And since the mind has no physical properties, it’s beyond the scrutiny of science, right?

            Dave:

Yeah, but I don’t know that that was the exact question.

            Tom:

Well, Dave, is it scientifically true that our minds are composed of two parts that was the first part.

            Dave:

Well, this was an idea that Jung got from demons, actually, from his spirit guide, and he extended it to the universal unconscious, and that we are all part of, and we can tap into this to get wisdom beyond our ability.  But the idea of the unconscious, you see, then I have an excuse.  This was a Freudian idea also, it’s not my fault what I am doing, it’s because my parents they did this to me, and they did that to me, and now that’s just become part of my unconscious.

            Tom:

And it determines how I am going to act, and as you said, it isn’t all the responsibility on my part, it’s been determined that this is the way I am going to act and behave.

            Dave:

Right, Tom, as you said, talking about the mind, two parts to the mind?  I don’t know how you could come up with that idea.  You might say—we won’t get back into this, Tom, but that’s left brain, right brain, broccoli brain, you remember?  That was the big thing for Christians, they jumped on this band wagon of left and right brain, about the time that the scientific world was abandoning it, and there are still a number of Christian books that were written about that.

            Tom:

Sure, but there is no scientific basis for it, that the hemispheres of the brain, both hemispheres work in coordination with one another.

            Dave:

So this is actually a seduction from Satan, the idea of it.

            Tom:

All right, Dave, I think these guys are pushing it a bit, let’s be reasonable.  As we said, as I said earlier, there’s no scientific basis for an unconscious or subconscious, all right.  Even if there were such an area, there’s no way anybody could prove it.  So, Dave, although Freud, he’s a medical doctor, Jung, a psychiatrist, a medical doctor, he would say:  Well, these guys are scientists, you know, they’ve got medical degrees.  But all of this stuff is just out of their speculation.  You know I’ve heard some even more than suggest Freud got these ideas--  He was a user of cocaine for depression and really recommended that drug to his colleagues for their patients.  So they came up with these ideas, these speculations based on their own perversions, based on their own situations in their own lives.

            Dave:

And Tom, as you say, who could prove it?  You can’t even get to the unconscious, the subconscious.  This is not a scientific theory, and not only can’t you prove it, you can’t prove that it’s not true.  This is one of the reasons why they say, belief in God, and you can’t call that a scientific theory, it’s not falsifiable, oh okay.  So, the atheists admit, well we can’t prove God exists but you guys can’t prove He doesn’t exist.  So now we’ve got something that’s not scientifically subject to examination, therefore it cannot be a scientific theory, but that doesn’t bother us.  Belief in God…it’s not a scientific theory for us, we have many proofs for the existence of God, from the Word of God and in many other ways.

            Tom:
Dave, I want to give a quote here.  This is from a book called, Therapy’s Delusions: the Myth of the Unconscious and the Exploitation of Today’s Walking Worried.  And the authors write: “While it is clear that we all engage in out of awareness mental processes, (you know, we’re driving along and we didn’t even—things pass by and we’re not thinking about them and so on.)  But anyway, “The idea of the dynamic unconscious proposes a powerful shadow mind that unknown to its host willfully influences the most minor thought of behavior.  There is no scientific evidence of this sort of purposeful unconscious, nor is there evidence that psychotherapists have special methods for laying bare our out of awareness mental processes.  Nevertheless, the therapists claim to be able to expose and reshape the unconscious mind continues to be the seductive promise of many talk therapies.”  Now Dave, what about Christianity, persons who have been drawn into this, whether it be through the influence of psychological counseling in the church among Christian psychologists or the inner healers, and so on, but this has no biblical basis.

            Dave:

Absolutely not!  In fact, Tom, it’s the opposite, it trashes the Bible.  Jesus said, if you continue in my Word ( this is obedience) you will know the truth, the truth will set you free.  And as I often give my own paraphrase:  The psychologist, the psychiatrist paraphrase of that is, if you continue in my word you will know part of the truth, and you will be made partially free.  Well, I can’t set you totally free because there is something coming along, some new prophets of truth for you, and so forth, and they will finally give us that which has been missing from the Bible all this time.  So, it really trashes the Bible.  The Bible promises, He’s given us all things that pertain unto life and godliness.  We don’t need some help from Freud or Jung whose lives were basket cases.

            Tom:

Right, and Dave, indeed there are areas, the heart, the mind, the will, and the emotions that we don’t know and we can’t understand, but it says that’s the realm that God knows.  I’ll give you a couple of verses, this is Jeremiah 17:9 and 10: The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?  The therapist can’t, but the Scripture say, I the Lord search the  heart.  And then in 2 Chronicles it says, Only God knows the heart.

 

 

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily.You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page . A transcript for this program is currently being prepared, and will be posted here in 2-4 weeks

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily.You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page .

            You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still ahead, Dave and Tom resume their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay tuned. 

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature, Dave and Tom address questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call.  Here is this week’s question:  “Dear Dave and TA:  I know  you both detest The Message Bible, written by Eugene Peterson, and I agree, but I wonder about pastors and teachers who paraphrase the scriptures in their preaching and teaching.  Aren’t they also in danger of committing the sin of adding to or taking away from the Word of God?

            Tom:

Well, what do you think, Dave?  I’ve heard you preach, and sometimes  you paraphrase the scriptures.  And by the way, the person accused us of detesting The Message Bible, written by Eugene Peterson.  I would say that’s a little soft, I would go a way beyond detesting.  I think it’s a, well we used the term blasting, I think it’s blasphemy.

             Dave:

It’s an abomination.  Well, people who ask questions like this…I guess the best thing we can do is teach them to think.  Because if you thought about this for a minute… there’s a big difference.  When a preacher is preaching from the Word of God, and that’s biblical, expounding the Scriptures, he is not saying, This is the Bible.  Eugene Peterson literally said that this was a version of the Bible.  That’s false, but then a person looks to that as t he Bible.  Now, nobody is expected to look to my, or your, or some preacher’s explanation of a Scripture.  Well, that’s  not the Bible, we are exegeting the Scripture, but you have the Scripture to go back to.

            Tom:

Yeah, so you could be a Berean, you could say, Wait a minute, Dave, time out here, you have deviated from the Word of God in your explanation.

            Dave:

Absolutely.

            Tom:

But that’s the responsibility of everyone who listens to preaching and teaching.

            Dave:

But you can’t do that with The Message, because it claims to be the Word of God.

            Tom:

Dave, something like 4,000 times we have throughout the Bible;  “…Thus saith the Lord…or the Word of the Lord came to me.”  The best you could say with this is, thus saith Eugene Peterson, or you know, supposedly he’s hearing from God, but I don’t buy it, I don’t believe it.  Dave, also, let me go over some verses that the Word of God has to say about what Eugene Peterson is doing here, and then we’ll give our audience, if they are not familiar with The Message, we’ll give them some examples.  Proverbs 30:6:  “Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”  Okay.  Deuteronomy 4:1-2:  “Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the Lord God of your fathers giveth you.  Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”  Another Deuteronomy 12:32:  “What thing so ever I command you, observe to do it:  thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”  And of course we know from Revelation 22:18-19:  “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto  him the plagues that are written in this book:  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”  The point being is God is serious about His Word.  He doesn’t want it messed with; He doesn’t want it tampered with.

            Dave:

Absolutely.

            Tom:

Now, have you got any examples of Eugene’s basically disobeying the verses that I have read?

            Dave:

Well, he changes them.  He takes what God said and shoves it to one side and puts his own words in there.  I gave you some examples, or one example, but how about John 3:17?  That says, in the Bible, that what he came for was, God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.  Well, what does The Message say?  He came to help to put the world right again.  Now that sounds like political or social action.

            Tom:

It is, and that’s Eugene Peterson is all about by the way, this is his agenda.

            Dave:

And that’s why Rick Warren loves this translation.

            Tom:

And used it more than other version in The Purpose-Driven Life.

            Dave:

Tom, one of my favorite verses Paul prays for the Ephesians in Ephesians 1.  He says:  “That you might know what is the hope of His calling.”  Well, what is the hope of His calling?  Well, Peter tells us in 1 Peter 5:10:  “The God of all grace who has called us unto his eternal glory.”  Wow!  When we see Him we will be like Him.  What does The Message say?  He will have you put together and standing on your feet.  What?  He’s lowered from heaven to this earth, he literally trashes God’s Word and puts his own in their place as though he is improving the Bible!

            Tom:

Right.  Dave, one more example.  The rationale behind this in paraphrases is, Well, so it becomes more understandable.  Now, you tell me, this is John 1:1.

            Dave:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  The same was in the beginning with God.”

            Tom:

Okay, now according to Peterson he’s going to make it more understandable. This is what he writes:  “The Word was first, the Word present to God, God present to the Word, the Word was God in readiness for God from day one.”

What is that?

            Dave:

He really garbled it, confused it.

            Tom:

Okay.