contending for the faith
This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily.You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page .
Gary:
You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom resume their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay with us. Now:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call, here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and Tom, In the Book of Job, his counselors are rebuked by God, yet some of the things they say seem to be true in general. For example, in Chapter 15: 14-15, Eliphaz says, “What is man, that he should be clean? And he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?” Am I to disregard everything Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar said to Job?
Tom:
Dave, certainly God comes down heavy against these three so-called counselors, and so on. But at the same time, they are saying some things that I think are consistent with what the Bible teaches.
Dave:
Well, we couldn’t expect that everything they said would be wrong, they may give good counsel. Much that they say could be true and is true. That doesn’t mean that this was inspired of God, this is God’s Word. God is giving you an accurate account of what these men said. But the problem with these men was they were judging Job. These were Job’s comforters, Job’s friends, and they’re telling him: “Wait a minute, I’ll tell you what your problem is, you’ve been out of touch with God, you’ve been disobedient to God, that’s why this has come upon you.” That was not true.
Tom:
So, if they took a truth but misapplied it, the application was wrong, that would make it bogus, wouldn’t it?
Dave:
Well yeah, but it doesn’t mean that the Bible isn’t true for saying it.
Tom:
No, I’m just saying their application to Job, that’s where they missed the mark, because as you said, they were judging his heart or judging the situation, and really had no understanding of what he was going through or what the circumstances were.
Dave:
Right, they didn’t know why this was happening to him.
Tom:
So Dave, what does that tell us about somebody out there that says, I’ve never read the Bible before, and now I’m a little confused because there are some things that I really need to understand the Bible from Genesis to Revelation to grasp whether this is a truth, this is consistent with what God is saying whether it’s His Word or not.
Dave:
Well, you would have to know the Bible, obviously, to know whether this would be consistent with the Bible. If it is consistent the Bible, fine, but it’s not inspired of God, so I don’t look to these men to learn some great truth. That’s not the purpose of this discussion they have; it’s to show that no matter how much wisdom you have—I remember a person saying to me well, I could give you her name but I won’t because of the tragedy. She was the wife of a well-known Christian leader who divorced her. She said, “Sometimes you can be so right that you’re wrong.” In other words, you could be as clear as crystal on doctrine and just as cold and hard. We have to apply these things in love and with understanding. So, that certainly was not done, they came there as his accusers, not as his friends. They came there to nail him to the wall, as it were.
Tom:
Now Dave, maybe some of our audience is a little confused by what you say, and maybe you can clarify it. You said that some of these things that they said were not inspired of God. Would that mean that—it’s in the Word of God, that it’s not inspired? You know, we went over this, all Scripture is God breathed, so how does that work?
Dave:
Well, I’m not going to give these men credit whom God will rebuke for him at the same time inspiring them to say what they say? No, everything that’s in the Bible is not inspired of God. When Satan tempts Jesus and he says, It is written, and bow down and worship me, and so forth, that’s not inspired of God. So there is much in the Bible that is not inspired of God. When Goliath says, I’ll give your flesh to the birds, and so forth, who are you to come out against me? Well, he’s not being inspired of God when he says that. The Bible is simple reporting what evil men say, but the Bible—God is not accountable for every wrong motive and every word that a person says just because it was recorded in the Bible.
Tom:
But Dave, can you make a distinction, I mean, it is in the Word of God, and it does say, as we quoted, all Scripture is God breathed?
Dave:
It says, Holy men of God, it says, “The prophecy came not all time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.” It’s talking about holy men of God, it’s not talking about anybody out there who says something at some time that’s recorded in the Bible. So I have to make a distinction there.
Tom:
We’ll have to push this a little more, Dave, because 2 Timothy 3:16: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Now the thing I am trying to make a distinction here is that everything in that Book God had ordained to be there. He doesn’t condone everything that’s said, I mean we’ve got scriptures by Satan. So I don’t want our audience to be confused when you say, inspired of God. No, God didn’t motivate Satan to be evil, but He did allow that to be in the Scriptures for our understanding, is that true or not?
Dave:
Well, Tom, we could have a discussion about this before our audience. It depends upon what it means. All Scripture—we’re going now to 2 Timothy 3:16: “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God.” Okay? Now, the inspiration of God would be in writing it down—
Tom:
Right, by the prophets.
Dave:
Right, but when those who are inspired of God are writing down what some evil man said, that is not included in what is inspired of God. The writing of it down, after all this is an account, an accurate account of what happened, and we can count on that. This is actually what these men said, but it’s not saying that everything they said that’s recorded in the Bible is inspired of God.
Tom:
Right, that we’re to take the heart of the believer —. Dave, you clarified it for me. I wanted to eliminate some confusion there that people are thinking, well, wait a minute, is Dave saying the Bible is not inspired? No, I think you clarified it.
Dave:
I hope so.
This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily.You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page .
You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned.
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here is this week’s question: Dear Dave and TA, I have a very bright friend who was not a believer, but at times seems to be a seeker after truth, at least I think that’s the case with him, or he may just enjoy tying me in knots, which he does more often than not. Anyway, his last attempt reflecting his post modern affinities did leave me scrambling for a reasonable answer. He challenged me regarding my belief in the absolute truth of Scriptures by saying that I could never come to an understanding of absolute truth because I’m a finite being. Then he added that the Bible supports his view when it says that we “see through a glass darkly” and we can only “know in part.” What can I say in response to him?
Tom:
Dave, you know this is an obscure ploy used by those who are leaders in the emerging church to really seriously undermine the faith of young evangelicals, saying, Hey, we can’t really know, you’ve got to experience God. They move from God saying: “Come let us reason together,” laying out information that we can know and understand to: “No, we really need to experience God, we need to move over to that subjective realm of knowing God through our experiencing him.” Well, we’ve got a lot of problems with that approach. Matthew 13—we have the scene, the sower sows the seed. The first seed fell by the wayside, the birds there came and took it up and the disciples say, What does that mean? Jesus says, When anyone receives the Word and the Word is the seed, it’s the Word of God, and does not understand it, then cometh the wicked one and takes from the heart the seed that was sown. Now if we must understand in order to believe and we can’t understand, it’s like these guys say, then nobody can be saved. They are just going to dialogue about this forever. All right, let’s take another Scripture. Jeremiah 9:24: “Let him that glorieth glory in this.” And Jesus said, This is life eternal that they might know thee the only true God. But Jeremiah doesn’t say that they know God, it says, “Let him that glorieth glory in this that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the true God,” and so forth. Understanding—Tom, one of your favorite verses, I think you quote it often, Proverbs 4:7: “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.” Now if you can’t understand because we’re finite, as this person who’s having this discussion with you because we’re finite, I mean, we have peanut brains, there’s no doubt about that, then there’s no hope. Now let me give you one other verse, Hebrews 11:3: “By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God.” Now, that’s an interesting verse. “So the things which are seen were not made of things that do appear…” I understand—I mean, this is really a—somebody says at the first statement of the atomic theory. No, it’s not a theory, this is what God said: Everything is made—it doesn’t say it’s made out of nothing, but He says everything is made out of something invisible. But it’s not something, because God brings it into existence. How do I understand this? Well, we’ve got peanut brains, no doubt about that. God gives us evidence, like prophecy, we’ve been talking about prophecy. You don’t have to be a genius to know that these are prophecies that were give hundreds of years, thousands some of them, beforehand and they have been fulfilled to the letter. Okay, we can follow that. But then so we follow the evidence. But God brings us to the point where there are things that we cannot understand. He can’t explain everything to me. So, am I going to know absolute truth? Not with my intellect, but the writer to Hebrew says by faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God. So you give me evidence—Tom, I will believe what he says because the language is pretty clear.
Tom:
You know, Dave, even though these emerging church leaders opt for, it’s kind of an intellectualism, it’s a relativism, they want to move into a realm that is so far into the Bible. You said it right, we are finite beings, not only that we are fallen beings, we don’t have the capacity of God, obviously. But God, in his design, wants to communicate to us so he’s going to design it in a way in which we can have understanding. More than that, beyond my fallen, finite, peanut brain, He has given me his Holy Spirit to understand, to help me to understand. Yeah, I don’t know everything, and I won’t know everything. When I see Him I’m going to see a lot more clearly than I do right now, but I have the Holy Spirit to teach me. God has given us the full package!
Dave:
Well, you don’t have to have doubts about what God says. You may not want to believe it and you may think that that’s too much, but the idea that I can’t know absolute truth is because I am a finite being is not rational. If I must know absolute truth as God knows it, then I can’t be saved, but we know enough. The gospel is very simple.
Tom:
That’s right.
Dave:
And how “…that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, was buried and rose again the third day, according to the scriptures.
Tom:
A child can understand it and receive the Messiah.
Dave:
Exactly. If not, then who could be saved?
This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above. For more listening options, please see our Radio Page.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly indepth study of the doctrine of salvation. Please stay with us. We return now to our first program series from 1999 and
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. This weeks’s question: A frequent reaction to The Seduction of Christianity, is that it causes division within the body. What is your response to this criticism?
Dave:
Well, it depends on what you mean by division. If you mean that we’re dividing over non-essentials and because we don’t like someone or we feel differently about something, that shouldn’t be. Jesus caused division everywhere he went. He was accused of causing division three times in the Book of John, he’s accused of causing division. In Luke chapter 12, Jesus says in fact: I came not to bring peace but a sword. I came to cause division between husbands and wives and parents and children. What Jesus is talking about there is, the truth cuts like a sword and it does divide and that I must make a clear stand for truth because, as we have tried to explain....We’re not saying it, Jesus said it, this is the issue: It’s the truth that sets you free and Jude said we must earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints because false doctrine or false gospel will send people to hell not to heaven. So, therefore, that is something that I should divide over. The news item that we just had--he got involved in dialogue. Jesus didn’t say go into all the world and dialogue. Dialogue is--well for instance, I just the last couple of weeks on trips, I’ve had a limo driver who was a Sikh, had a limo driver who was a Muslim and I had some very fruitful discussions with them. In fact, to such an extent that just a few days ago the Muslim driver wouldn’t take a tip from me. He said I had already given him a wonderful gift because he came to understand the gospel. I didn’t dialogue with him--dialogue is, you try to come to some meeting of the mind--I’ll give up a little and you give up a little and so forth.
Tom:
A consensus. We’re moving from Christian, from absolute to a consensus which is compromise. Right?
Dave:
Right. Paul disputed in the market place. He proved that Jesus was the Christ--he confounded the Jews and the Greeks as well. And, I’m to go into all the world and preach the gospel and I must--you don’t dialogue about truth. I don’t dialogue about whether 2 + 2 = 4, you know. That’s one of the problems in our public schools as most people know. It’s not facts anymore but how do you feel about it. How do you feel about two plus two is four, you know. So, that’s dialogue but that’s not going to get anybody to heaven. So, there will inevitably be division. You know, I’ve had, and I’m sure you’ve had, quoted at us Romans 16:17: “Mark those which cause division among you and avoid them...” and I say, Wait a minute! That’s not what it says, you had better go back and read it again. It says, “...mark them which cause division among you contrary to the doctrine you have received, and avoid them.” You don’t cause division by standing for sound doctrine. We are united in the truth. Division is caused by introducing false doctrine and refusing to be corrected on it.
Tom:
Right. It’s the truth that unites us. I mean, we can try to do whatever we think we can do to come together in unity but if it’s without truth Biblically, there is no unity. You know, it’s interesting how these ideas of division, just as you mentioned, the misquoting of Romans 16:17. We're told that doctrine divides. And it does! But the idea is that it has a negative connotation. We don’t want to get into doctrine--don’t talk to me about doctrine, brother. Just tell me you love Jesus. And, we’ve been through this before. Jesus, who? Without doctrine, without biblical teaching we don’t know who this Jesus is that we’re talking about and that we’re supposed to unite around, but it’s truth.
Dave:
The reason why doctrine divides and truth divides is because it does unite you if you believe it and those who don’t believe it, who reject it, are outside, they are not part of this. So, if we read the prayer of Christ in John 17, for unity, I believe the prayer was answered. We are united, it’s a unity in the truth--it’s a unity in God’s Word and it’s a unity. Jesus says thou art in me and I in thee that they may be one in us. So, it’s a family unity. We’re only united in the family of God because we have been born of the Spirit of God, in the family of God, and we believe the truth of God, we are following him. So, the Bible never says to make unity but it says to keep the unity of the Spirit and this is the Spirit of Truth who leads us into all truth. So yes, there will be division because there are many who reject the truth but we’re not going to compromise with them for the sake of coming up with some false unity. To be unified around error, around heresy is only going to destroy people’s lives, it’s not going to help.
This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above. For more listening options, please see our Radio Page.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly indepth study of the doctrine of salvation. Please stay with us. We return now to our first program series from 1999 and:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Our question this week: “When you were critical of Christians such as you were in The Seduction of Christianity, shouldn’t you go to them privately before publicly criticizing them? Isn’t that what Matthew 18 instructs us to do?” Again, with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.
Tom:
Dave, I know it’s a little late, fifteen years later, but we had the problem fifteen years ago in how to respond to these men who were highly visible in the church and published, and TV programs, radio programs, but is this an issue of Matthew 18?
Dave:
Well, first of all, it’s not a Matthew 18 issue. Matthew 18 says if your brother offends you or trespasses against you, you go to him. What we dealt with in The Seduction of Christianity, and what we are dealing with now and will continue to deal with, not the only approach we will take, but it’s not a personal offense against me for someone to teach false doctrine publicly. I’m concerned for the body of Christ so it’s nothing that I would need to go to them privately about because they usually didn’t even name my name, I mean, only the reviewers and the critics later did that. But the people that we tried to bring correction for in that book and in other books that we’ve written, they publicly taught things that we believe are not biblical. We have quoted them in context. We have stated very clearly what they have said and then we have gone to the scriptures to see whether what they said was true. This is exactly what the Bereans did with Paul. They checked Paul out. Would anyone suggest that if when they went to the scriptures and they checked Paul out and they found out that he had contradicted the Word of God, that then they shouldn’t correct him? Paul would be glad to be corrected. And I will say that publicly over the radio as I have said it many times, if anything I say is not biblical, please, please tell me. I want to be corrected. I don’t want to go on in error and I wouldn’t consider it being critical of someone to simply point out we’re quoting them. So, that’s not being critical is it? And then, going to the Word of God to see whether what they have said is true. I think one of the greatest needs in the church today is for correction and yet, there are very few who are willing to bring this about. I would have to lay this at the door of a number of Christian leaders. I often say to an audience: You know, I’m a nobody-why should I be running around pointing these things out? Why doesn’t Billy Graham? Why doesn’t James Dobson? Why doesn’t someone of that stature, when some of these things are so blatant and so obvious, why don’t they bring correction? We need someone to bring correction because, you see, the reason for it-you know, if it were only the person who said it, then you would go to them privately but the fact is, they said it publicly and they have led a lot of people astray. The only way you can correct it is publicly.
Tom:
So really, Matthew 18 deals with, just to repeat what you said in part, Matthew 18 deals with personal sin, brother to brother. If somebody is preaching out there or speaking or teaching and they are teaching to the masses through the media, radio, TV, and so on, that’s not a personal issue of sin if somebody is teaching false doctrine. Can false doctrine really be personal sin against an individual and come under the context of
Dave:
No, because it’s being taught to multitudes of people out there. Furthermore, Tom, as I said, if I’m teaching something wrong, please correct me. If you want to do it publicly I don’t mind because if I’m wrong-if I’ve taught something publicly that’s wrong, I would publicly admit it. So, why would someone want me to come to them privately and discuss this privately? Now you know we have gone to as many of these men as we could privately. Let me give you an example. I was on a panel with a number of people. I remember Walter Martin was sitting right next to me and somebody asked something about Robert Schuller. I said, well, you know, Robert Schuller, some years ago, went to Unity Headquarters in Summit, Missouri. He addressed Unity ministers and ministers in training. He went there-now if people don’t know what Unity teaches, they deny everything in the Bible, they are into yoga and UFO’s and all kinds of false spirituality, you name it and they are into it. They deny the redemptive work of Christ.
Tom:
Right, it's mind science...
Dave:
Right. So this is one of the worst cults that you could possibly have out there. They are leading millions astray. A lot of books, you know, they are into success and so forth and so they influence a lot of people. Robert Schuller went there, not to correct them but to commend them-to share his church growth principles-to help Unity, this horrible cult, grow larger. I think that’s reprehensible. In the question/answer time one of them asked: We hear a lot about the New Age movement these days, what should be our response as ministers to the New Age movement? And indicated they that they were all part of the New Age movement. Robert Schuller didn’t skip a beat: He said: What we need to do in this age is to be positive, you know and for you here, Unity ministers, that’s easy because you’re already very positive, but you understand that I deal with people out there that you would call “fundamentalists” and they use terms like sin and guilt and redemption and repentance and what we have to do is positivize those. We’ve got to positivize religion. Walter Martin was sitting next to me and he said, Dave, I don’t want to hear you say that again because I have gone to Robert Schuller privately about this. I have talked to him about it, he has admitted that he’s wrong and he has told me he will never be involved with Unity again. So I said to Walter: Well, okay Walter, if that’s what he says but you’ve got more confidence in him than I have. I don’t remember whether it was a few weeks or months maybe, too long thereafter I got in my car and turned on the radio and I’m listening to the Bible Answer Man. It’s Walter Martin and he’s saying, Yeah, the next thing I know, Robert Schuller is back involved with Unity again and now he won’t answer my letters and he won’t return my phone calls. So, we have found, as you know, we have found the same thing. People will say, some of these leaders that we have gone to, to try to discuss what we consider to be serious error, they will say one thing in private but they continue to go on in public. So, we have no recourse except to warn people out there and, Tom, I know I am going on too long but it’s up to everybody. All we want to do is lay out the facts. Here’s what they said, here’s what the Bible says, now you make your decision. We’re not pushing our opinion on anyone but we would like to give them the opportunity to make an intelligent choice on this matter.
Tom:
Right. And we’ve laid the ground work that Matthew 18 does not fall under the context of what Matthew 18 is about plus it’s basically impossible. How do you get to these people? Even when we were doing
The Seduction of Christianity, and we tried to contact these individuals, nothing--I mean, they didn’t know who we were for the most part and they were not willing to respond to questions that we had. Those who do today, as you said, the private conversations we’ve had, nothing really came of it.
Dave:
Well, Paul Yonggi Cho said, and it’s in writing, he said when Dave Hunt has a church as large as mine, then I will discuss it with him. We were stonewalled with a lot of these people that we tried to get to.
Tom:
On the other hand, I don’t know if it’s because it’s down the line or not but you remember when, “Christianity Today” had an article defending Tony Campolo and Karen Mains, we were made out to be the inquisition. Now, there’s a step from-
Dave:
Well, Tom, people can check it out. I’m not angry about it-I’m not offended, but I am offended for the body of Christ. I’ve had terrible reviews of some of my books but the one thing that they never do, they don’t quote me-they don’t give page references and say this is what Dave Hunt says and this is why it’s wrong. They use ad hominem arguments-they just run me down something terrible and you’ve suffered the same. Even “Christianity Today” has done it and other reviewers. I don’t think that’s fair, I’ve never done that to anybody else, I don’t make ad hominem remarks about them. We simply quote what they say and if they really believe what they say, then they should be glad that we are quoting them because we’re giving wider distribution to what they say. I don’t know but somehow I get blamed for what they say because I quoted them. People don’t like what they have said but they don’t blame them, they blame me for quoting them.
Tom:
That’s a sign of today’s guruism, of sacred cows, of following after men, women, in the church.
Dave:
Tom, it’s important and I hope that people aren’t out there saying, well, we don’t want to go on with this negative kind of stuff. Well, I guess Jeremiah was very negative, he warned the people of Israel-I guess Paul was very negative, he warned with tears night and day. I think it’s very important, I mean, the truth matters. Jesus said, if you continue in my Word, John 8:31-32: “If you continue in my Word then are you my disciples indeed and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” So, the truth is the issue here. It is God’s Word, and by the way, it tells us in the book of Acts that the disciples were first called Christians at Antioch. So, who is a Christian? A Christian is a disciple who is following Christ, who is continuing in His Word and is obeying His Word and has been set free by the truth and if truth doesn’t matter to people out there, then I have to question whether they even want to be Christians.
Tom:
Right, and if they are Christians, truly loving the Lord, but they buy into these false ideas, false teachings, false doctrines, they are drifting into bondage. There is no other way to go.
Dave:
And we want to help them and the only way we want to help them is not to give them our opinion. Let’s turn them to the Word of God.
Tom:
Amen.
This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above. For more listening options, please see our Radio Page.
Gary:
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly indepth study of the doctrine of salvation. Please stay with us. We return now to our first program series from 1999 and
Contending for the Faith
Our question this week is, "What do you think of the book, Ecumenical Jihad, by Peter Creft and the endorsements by leading evangelicals on the back?"
Dave:
Well, Ecumenical Jihad, is an interesting title. Jihad, of course, is a religious war that loosens--it’s their only way of getting to heaven really. Being sure you die in Jihad.
Tom:
Wait a minute. I had somebody write to us with a correction. They said the other way for a Muslim to get to heaven is to die on his way to Mecca or on a religious pilgrimage.
Dave:
That could be, yeah. But he is out for ecumenism and he’s working very hard for it. First of all, Peter Creft, Dr. Creft is a philosophy professor at Boston University, which is a Catholic university. He was a former evangelical supposedly, he’s a convert to Catholicism. He’s written a number of books, some of them have been published by Intervarsity Press and in his books he even acknowledges--he says that he asks his Catholic students--these are university students now, they are Roman Catholics. They have been raised in Catholicism, they have gone through catechism, grammar school, junior high and high school and now they are in a Catholic university. He says he asks them how they hope to get to heaven. And he says almost all of them don’t have a clue. He says most of them don’t even mention Jesus. He doesn’t tell us what all they say about how Mary will get them there or what. But you were a Catholic, and you can imagine many of the ideas these people would have. But now he wants to bring all religions together. Ecumenism, we used to think of it as the Methodist, Presbyterian and so forth will all get together. The World Council of Churches, the National Council of Churches, that was an ecumenical movement to bring all of the denominations back together. The Catholics were never a part of it. In their wildest imagination they never thought of Buddhists, Muslims and Hindus and so forth being involved. So this is pretty much what Peter Creft is advocating here in this book.
Tom:
Dave, let me just back up just a second. These young Catholics, his students, these he’s interviewing, what does he say? I mean, he was an evangelical and now he is a Roman Catholic, what does he recommend, what is he suggesting?
Dave:
Well, as a former Catholic you know that really isn’t all that serious so long as you are in the church. You’ve been baptized and you go to mass and you’re ingesting the body, the blood of Jesus, you know, each Sunday and you’re involved in sacraments and you’re okay. So he’s sort of bemoaning that they don’t understand the basis of their faith. But as you would know, this is not their faith. They don’t believe in the evangelical gospel, salvation by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone. They don’t believe that but as a former Protestant, I don’t know that he was an evangelical. He at least had some understanding, some concern.
Tom:
So this book lays out that premise, that thesis of ecumenism and the concern here of this writer, the person who wrote to us with the question, is we have evangelicals endorsing it.
Dave:
Well, Creft, first of all, is one of the Catholic signers of ECT and ECT2, Evangelicals and Catholics Together. So he’s in there on the same page with Colson, Packer, Bill Bright, Pat Robertson and other evangelical leaders and, in fact, this book is endorsed by two of them, J. I. Packer, and Chuck Colson. On page 96, this is Ecumenical Jihad, now, he has Confucius, quote: "In the outskirts of heaven, the place you call purgatory on the way to heaven, the Catholic way of course, through purgatory. Buddha and Mohammed are already in heaven--that’s pages 96 through lll, that I am quoting from---having been God’s prophets all along and many of their followers. Mohammed for example, he hopes that most of his pious followers will make it--that’s page 105. They are also Cripto-Christians--he says that Gorbachev is a Cripto-Christian. Now, I have studied criptography. Criptography is a secret message so I presume this would be a secret Christian. They don’t even know that they are Christians themselves. Gorbachev doesn’t know that he’s a Christian, in fact he claims to be an atheist. Creft considers these guys, Buddha, Mohammed and Confucius and so forth to be Cripto-Christians. In fact, he says Buddha and Mohammed are already in heaven and they will be around the throne of the Lamb. This is the Lamb of God that they rejected, that they didn’t know. Jesus said: Whoever climbs up another way, tries to climb up another way is a thief and a robber. He’s not going to get there but Peter Creft has them getting there. Mohammed of course, the reason Mohammed, he’s sure is in heaven already, is because of his veneration of Mary. She is mentioned 34 times in the Koran and he speaks of these pagans, pagan religious leaders, as being: "Closer in spirit to the touchstone of Catholic truth than most Protestants."
Tom:
We would agree with that but not closer to God’s Word.
Dave:
He suggests that there is: "A hidden Christ in Hinduism"--- you’ll find that on pages 156 to 160--"and a hidden Christ in other pagan religions and that pagans and even atheists and agnostics may be secret believers in Jesus without knowing it." Finally, he opts for Teilhard de Chardin’s idea that the transubstantiation affected by Catholic priests in the Eucharist is inexorably transforming the entire universe into one giant, cosmic Eucharistic Christ, (you find that on page 158) and that ultimately everyone including even evangelicals will be united in the Eucharist and in Mary, (you would get that on pages 145 through 155). Now this is about as outrageous as you could possibly get, as much opposed--you know, Jesus said, the disciples asked him, Master, are there many that be saved? Jesus said: Very few. Strive to enter into the strait gate, for strait that means "type" in the Old English, "...strait is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it for broad is the road that leads to destruction and many there be that go in there at." And in contradiction in the face of the clear words of Jesus Christ who ought to know, Peter Creft says, No, they are all going to make it. Tom, here’s how ridiculous it is. It’s like saying that Kruschev was a Cripto-Republican. It’s like saying that Mao Tse-tung was really at his heart a Democrat. I mean, that’s so ludicrous and he didn’t even know it but what he really espoused was democracy and yet these vicious dictators--now, what is most shocking is then how can J. I. Packer and Charles Colson give their enthusiastic stamp of approval on the back cover of this book?
Tom:
You see, the responsibility, I mean, even if you say, well, these men had their reasons. If they are going to put their name on something it’s going to advance the book, the cause, the view, whatever it might be and they are leading believers down this path.
Dave:
And they are leading non-believers to remain in their unbelief and their false religions and they are going to be okay in the end. That’s deadly.
This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily.You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page . A transcript for this program is currently being prepared, and will be posted here in 2-4 weeks
You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us.
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call, here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and Tom, I find more than a bit of irony in the fact that you profess to be all about the good news of Jesus, yet you deliver mostly bad news. Don’t you know you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar?
Tom:
Well, Dave, this would be good advice if we’re in the fly catching business but the last time I checked it wasn’t what we were about.
Dave:
It’s a bad analogy, we’re in the business of warning people to flee from the wrath to come, to go into all the world and preach the gospel. Well, the gospel is about how to get saved, how to avoid hell. Yeah, but if you're ’not even headed for hell, if there’s no reason why anyone should go there, if God just embraces everyone, there are no rules in His universe, just do whatever you want, do your own thing, and then when you come to die God will pat you on the head and say, Nice boy, nice girl, that was very good, I know that you tried your best. Well then, what’s the point? everyone is going to try their best. You know, it’s like in Hinduism, Karma, it doesn’t really matter to a Hindu, you can believe anything you want because finally the Karma will catch up with you. It will get you in the right place, but there’s only one place to go, that’s what they say--all taking different roads to get to the same place. Well, yeah, but Jesus said there’s two destinations, and you’re not going to be forced to go to either one.
Tom:
And Dave, also, what have we been called to do? As you said, we’ve been called to inform people, and this is what we are trying to do, point to the Scriptures, point to the Word of God. And I think anyone objectively, looking at the New Testament will find so much correction. Paul, speaking to the Ephesian elders, and then the Book of Acts, remember? He said there are going to be savage wolves that would come among you, and he was grieved by this, even for three years, night and day with tears. Now Dave, I don’t think we’re there yet, we certainly address a lot of issues, but I wouldn’t put myself in the same category with Paul in terms of his heart’s concern for those who have come to Christ.
Dave:
Yes, to accuse us of only passing out bad news! Well, doctors have to do it every day. I just got some what you could call bad news, and you did too, from doctors, but they also had good news. You couldn’t have the good news if you didn’t know what the bad news was. If you don’t have an accurate diagnosis of the problem, then you can’t have the good news. But to say it’s bad news, no it’s the simple truth. Bad news is like something that just happens. No, we human beings are stuck with this, we are sinners and there is only one remedy, and if we don’t tell people that, we are just letting them go to hell.
Tom:
And Dave, it’s not like we are in control of the airways for this, or play a major part in this. If you look at what’s going on in the church, who is the most influential pastor in America today? Mr. so called, "good news himself" Joel Osteen, He won’t say a negative thing, it’s not what he believes he’s been called to do. You know, coming out of the prosperity movement, the health and wealth and all of that, that’s his basis and his background, and there are many like it. In other words, positivism, which you know you’ve said many times, the Bible doesn’t say anything about positive/negativism, does it?
Dave:
Well, Tom, again I’ll just use the example of the doctor. You come to me and you ask me to examine you and give you a diagnosis, and I say to my assistant, Well, this really bad stuff, I mean, the guy is going to die in a month, something could be done about it but we might offend him if we tell him the truth, so let’s give him good news. Well, the good side is, I mean, you’re not going to die today or tomorrow, and if you have a little pain I’ll give you something stronger than an aspirin, and then we’ll give you some Valium or something to make you feel good about it all. Now Tom, this is what the false pastors are doing, offering this sort of thing, and Joel Osteen, what does he have, thirty thousand people sitting in the audience, and he just tells them how to be happy and how to feel good about themselves. I don’t recall anything like that from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Amos, you name them, or Jesus himself, much less Paul.
Tom:
Well, Dave, the gospel--it means the good news.
Dave:
That’s right.
Tom:
But as I look at the gospel there are many corrective things in it. In other words, the full counsel of God isn’t just talking about pie in the sky, I mean, it doesn’t talk about this, it talks about truth and reality and eternal life, and so on, but basically, it is good news. So, you know, this person is off base here in their concerns.
Dave:
Good news, in relation to what? Well, good news in relation to the problem that I have for which I need a remedy. The best news that you could have is for eternity. Tom, the Bible is very clear, Jesus taught more about hell than anybody, very clear that there is such a place. And it’s not that God is turning you on a spit over some flames, God doesn’t send people to hell, they send themselves by rebelling against him. Now you think we can--Well, God, could we make a deal, you know, we don’t want to be thrown in hell, we like to be in the universe, you know, your creation and we’d like to enjoy it but just some things we can’t swallow. I mean we don’t think that you should really be in charge of this. How about we will negotiate about this, we’ll dialogue about it and so forth. Tom, that is utter stupidity! And yet this is what is being offered to people who are on the brink of eternity, and they are going to go one place or another, and where they go will depend upon themselves. God will not send anyone to hell, they send themselves!
This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above. For more listening options, please see our Radio Page . The transcript for this program is as follows:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
Now, Contending for the Faith. In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and TA, I don’t understand how to correspond the pre-trib rapture view with the harvest mentioned in Revelation 14, Verses 14 through 20. In those verses there are two harvests mentioned; one is a harvest by Christ; and the other by an angel that throws the wicked into the winepress of God’s wrath. This verse seems to refer to the separation of the wheat from the tares, and seems to refer to the event we call the rapture. Yet this event seems to happen during the time of the 70th week of Daniel. I have leaned upon the pre-trib rapture view for some time now based on the promise to the church of Philadelphia, and the commanded prayer in Luke that exhorts that we pray always to be counted worthy to escape. What are your thoughts about this?
Dave:
Well, Tom, first of all, this is during the great tribulation. It doesn’t seem to me…I don’t find any evidence of good reaping that the wheat is pulled out and the tares are left…or the tars are brought into the fire. It’s just part of the judgments of God upon this earth. Nothing about the rapture, nothing about anyone being taken to heaven. Here we have…it does say this: I looked, and beheld a white cloud, upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. Now, that’s not the rapture; the rapture, The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, voice of the arc angel, trumpet of God, dead in Christ shall rise first, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air. Nothing about any of this, nothing about Christ descending to catch up people, his own, from the earth. So, Christ is not involved in rapturing anyone, this is a part of the judgments upon the earth. So, I don’t have any way to reconcile that with the rapture, it just doesn’t fit, it’s not part of it.
Tom:
And Dave, he says this event seems to happen during the time of the 70th week of Daniel, that is the tribulation. But as you say, it doesn’t apply to the rapture. I’m confused by the question because he says, “I’ve leaned upon the pre-trib rapture view for some time now,” but he’s misapplying it here.
Dave:
Well, how does this have anything to do with the pre-trib rapture? Has nothing to do with any rapture, this is not a rapture at all, it is a time to reap the earth, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. Well, that’s not the rapture.
Tom:
And Dave, should we look to the church of Philadelphia or the commanded prayer in Luke about being worthy to escape? First of all, it seems to contradict his view of a pre-tribulation rapture, I mean, what are we escaping from?
Dave:
Well, he says he used to believe in the pre-trib rapture, I though he said that. Tom:
No, he said, “I have leaned upon the pre-trib view for some time now, based upon the promise to the church of Philadelphia,” that wouldn’t be a place I would go for my view of the pre-trib—
Dave:
What does he say following that? He must have abandoned it.
Tom:
I don’t think so—“and the commanded prayer in Luke that exhorts that we pray always to be counted worthy to escape.” In other words, it seems to me that he is saying that this is his foundation for believing in a pre-trib rapture. Well, is this where you would go for your view of the pre-trib rapture?
Dave:
No. Has nothing to do with pre-trib rapture. Philadelphia…well, it says he will keep them from the hour of temptation, and so forth, but the church of Philadelphia is long gone. So this was actually a historical event. But you could apply it…they say, Well, this is the dispensations of the church, typical of the progression of the church and so forth, if you want to apply it that way. But it’s not a—
Tom:
But it’s not substantial, related to the doctrine of the rapture, that’s my point.
Dave:
Right. I don’t think you could build a rapture doctrine on that, but apparently this man has been leaning on that.
Tom:
It seems like a support, but just that.
Dave:
Now he’s got himself confused, because none of these scriptures have anything to do with the rapture. They’re going to reap the harvest, I mean, they will reap what they sowed, Galatians Chapter 6. What you sow you will reap. So, the earth is going to reap its sins and it’s going to reap judgment, but this is not anything about being taken to heaven. So Tom, I think the man got a little bit confused in a number of different ways. Whether he still believes in a pre-trib rapture, and just exactly what that means for him, I don’t know. But I wouldn’t know how to answer this question. Well, we’ve been trying.
Tom:
Well Dave, as we do, if somebody wants to check this out they simply need to go to Revelation Chapter 14, and read verses 14 to 20, as you’ve said, check it out for yourself and see how you understand these verses.
Gary:
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to address in a future Contending for the Faith, stay with us, we’ll provide our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to Search The Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.
This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily.You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page .
You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still to come, Dave and Tom resume their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us. Now:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here is this week’s question: Dear Dave and Tom, My husband and I listen to your program and we enjoy it very much. Yet as we hear what you are saying regarding the state of the church, which our experiences have confirmed, it is more than a little distressful. We worry about our children if the Lord doesn’t return before they become adults. What can we do to help prepare them for a generation in which the church is so different than anything we have experienced.
Tom:
Dave, this almost sounds like a person over-alarmed, but the last thirty years we have seen trends take place within Evangelical Christianity that makes you wonder if the Lord doesn’t return until the next generation, or the end of the next generation what they are going to have to go through. And having 5 children of my own, the preparation is the preparation for any Christian, and that is, know the Word, know what you believe, why you believe it, be encouraged in the Word, check everything out, have a healthy skepticism about what’s going on, but mainly it’s the Word, read the Word, teach the Word, preach the Word.
Dave:
Well, Tom, without God, without his Word, we’re lost, we’re wandering, and the tragedy is, and we’re talking about public schools now, but some Christian schools are becoming almost as bad.
Tom:
Well, we could start at Christian colleges and work your way down, even in some cases home schooling, although that may be the best of all options.
Dave:
Yeah, so what do we get in public education? Well, evolution is taught. Now Richard Dawkins says, It was evolution that made an atheist out of me. Okay? Well, now we see what it will do in public schools, but you can’t bring in Creation as an alternate. Then we have the immorality, the sex education, and the denial of truth. Now we’re into relativism, which we have just been talking about. You couldn’t say that anything is right and something else is wrong, so take your pick, it’s kind of a cafeteria menu here, what would you like? So, Tom, I tremble for young people who are growing up now.
Tom:
So what do they do, Dave, these people who wrote this, they need some of your council, what do you recommend?
Dave:
Well, you had better have daily Bible study and prayer in your home. My father did it twice a day in our home when I grew up. I can tell you that’s still in good stead because I didn’t even have to memorize the Bible. I’m sure there’s a whole lot more than I could have memorized, but I just knew it from Genesis to Revelation because I heard it over and over and over. Now, somehow, you’ve got to know what your children are learning in school. You have to counteract it. You can’t be—
Tom:
So, this isn’t the work of a youth pastor, or your pastor at church, this isn’t the church, this is a function of the home, the husband being the spiritual head of the home, his wife certainly the teacher of young children. But this has got to be a group effort, I think.
Dave:
Well, that’s true, Tom, but the home is where it begins. And somehow, you have to instill in your children a respect for the Word of God, the fear of the Lord, and if the parents don’t show any difference—I mean, you know the old saying: “If you were accused of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?” Well, I go down the street, I live in this neighborhood, I see they seem to live like everybody else, you go into their home, they are watching the same TV shows, they’re laughing at the same off-color, well, they get it worse and worse, they’re laughing at the same godless jokes—they just love it, they can fit right into, I don’t know the names of these programs, “Friends,” for example, they just fit right in with whoever it is. This is the world presenting their ideas and undermining the morals. So you can’t just be ignorant of this, you’ve got to know what the enemy is that you’re fighting, and you’ve got to show your children. You can’t just scold them and say, No, that’s wrong. You have to show your children by your own attitude and interest. What are you really interested in, what do you talk about at the dinner table? Is it really important, this stuff, or is it just like some TV show that you’d find and this family of ridiculous family. It’s one of the things that are making everybody ridiculous, it doesn’t really matter, it has no relationship to truth, who cares? Well then you can’t then says okay, now let’s have a little Bible study. It has to be consistent in the home.
Tom:
Dave, what about the church? We’ve seen major, major changes in the church, and as we see the church in the world and the world in the church, what about that? Because our young people, certainly home is important, but they need fellowship, they need young people to interact with.
Dave:
Tom, we talk about this all the time, we’re in an apostasy. We don’t even have the real Scriptures, we’ve got The Message or we’ve got a video, DVD.
Tom:
So, we have an Emerging Church which wants you to cozy up to this postmodern generation in their rebellion against authority, and so on.
Dave:
Yeah, so much has gone wrong in the church, Tom. I don’t know where we would begin, but there again, it begins with the home. The father, is he going to take someone to a church where he knows they are violating the Word of God, where they don’t even study the Bible, where they make a pretext of studying the Bible, where you’re not going to get the truth. Well, you’ve got to know what that is from the home, and then you’ve got to shun—and I’m not telling people to leave their church—well, you may have to. Because if the pastor and the elders, if they have elders, will not go by the Bible, you had better get out of there, otherwise you’re following men, and you will be subject to all of their errors and heresies.
This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above. For more listening options, please see our Radio Page . The transcript for this program is as follows:
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
Now, Contending for the Faith. In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and T.A., I’ve listened to your many programs on The Emerging Church movement, and I appreciate your making very clear the biblical problems with such a movement. What I find thoroughly surprising, even disheartening, is the number of very bright, articulate young Evangelical Christians that are being seduced by the emergent leaders and writers. Do you have any insight as to why so many are attracted to this movement?
Tom:
Well, Dave, we could go down a list. It begins with: were they really taught the Bible? Do they really have an understanding of God’s Word, because this is so anti-Bible, this movement, that it’s stunning. The other thing, and we talked about in our first segment a little bit, is; our young people, they want to be accepted. This issue of tolerance, it’s got them, its gripped them, they don’t want to be considered to be intolerant. So they’re going to go with the flow of their peers, and whether this happens in college, whether it happens in high school, they just don’t want to be what the Bible calls sanctified, set apart. And, it’s sad, Dave, because they have the truth. And remember Jesus in uh, what is it John 17:17: Pray to the Father, sanctify them by thy truth, thy Word is truth. They have the truth if indeed, they know Christ and have accepted Christ, but they are not willing to be—many, not all, there are some kids I just stand in awe of, but many, I think the majority are drifting away, and they are being led down a primrose path by these pied-pipers of The Emerging Church movement.
Dave:
Yeah, well Tom, again it’s just another variation of what we were just talking about; why does Oprah go from The Secret, and now she is on to this new deal, although it’s very similar. Well, I think these young people would say, and older ones as well, if we say, Why don’t you get back to the Bible? Yeah, we tried that, that doesn’t work. A lot of people say that—Well, I tried surrendering my life to Christ, I tried believing, it doesn’t work. Well then, I guess the Bible isn’t true, we should all throw it out. Because if this doesn’t work, wait a minute! How is it going to work? By faith, I must believe it. And this is what Oprah wants you to do, she wants you to believe this, believe this guru, believe The Secret and so forth. But that’s not the same kind of faith, and we can prove this is true, we just went over that. You cannot prove that Tolle’s book is true, you cannot prove that The Secret is right, and we can certainly—well, it’d be easy to prove it doesn’t work, because none of those people have ever gotten everything they want, can’t be what you want and go where you want, and so forth. I guess that would certainly free a lot of prisoners. You know, like Maharishi was teaching them how to fly. Well, I don’t hear of any followers of Maharishi in prison that went over the prison walls.
Tom:
Yeah, his form of levitation through transcendental meditation—
Dave:
Is a joke.
Tom:
Right. Well Dave, let’s go back to Ophra just for a second. You heard her, the video in which she said, Listen, Christianity is not the only way, there are many ways. So, here you have—and she claims to be a Baptist, I mean, she grew up a Baptist, was turned off by learning that God was a jealous God. She couldn’t reconcile that with her understanding of God, and now she’s opened up to all kinds of other teachings, all kinds of other beliefs, and she’s come up with really, whether you call it New Age or Eastern mystical, or whatever, she has—she’s no longer a Baptist. Not that baptism saves anybody, that is, being a Baptist saves anybody, but she’s jumped from the truth, if she’s ever understood it.
Dave:
I don’t believe she ever understood it. So she never knew the Lord, you don’t lose your salvation. This woman is determined to take her own way. And she knows what’s popular, she runs a talk show. Well you can’t be a talk show host can say, Jesus warned you; I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me. No, it sounds a whole lot more appealing. And Tom, one of your verses that you often quote: There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, the end thereof are the ways of death. Why does it seem unto a man? Not because he’s analyzed it logically, not because he’s checked it out from the Bible, but because, Hey, this sound really nice—I really like this.
Tom:
Well, Dave, along this line of the question that we’ve just received, you know, young people in many cases, and I see it too often, there are some things that they want to do that the Bible says, No.
Dave:
Right.
Tom:
And so they are going to jump ship, because their heart, their minds, their flesh says, No, I want this more than I want God’s Word, God’s truth.
Dave:
Yeah Tom, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. I often think of these televangelists, I mean, some of them really tell lies, trying to get money, and so forth. They don’t have any fear of God, I don’t think they even believe in God. So we have a lot of people who claim they believe in God. They grew up in a church, believe in God, believe in Jesus Christ, but you don’t study His Word, and you do not follow what the Bible really says. How do you know that what you, your interpretation of this—I mean you’ve trashed the Bible. Tom, in fact, we don’t want to go back to that, but we’ve talked about The Message—it trashes the Bible. You’ve got these DVD’s, and so forth—this is spiritual junk food, this is what these young people are being raised on. How can they find some stability from solid rock under their feet because the Bible, so-called, that they even have and the teaching they are getting from church is not based upon the solid foundation of the Word of God, and of Jesus Christ.
Gary:
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to address in a future Contending for the Faith, stay with us, we’ll provide our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily. You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above. For more listening options, please see our Radio Page .
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and Tom, I’ve been listening to you talk about what you call the new militant atheism. You’ve stated that it is an aggressive form of materialism, and it certainly seems that way. It makes me wonder though, since it claims to be anti-religion, how do you see it fitting in with what the Antichrist will bring about? How can an anti-religion prosper in a time that the Bible indicates in Matthew 24, will be dominated by religious deception?
Tom:
Dave, we certainly have seen an aggressive militant atheism to the point where they are just going after religion, but doesn’t anybody recognize atheism is a religion itself?
Dave:
Yeah, Tom, how is it going to fit in? Well, the Antichrist will pretend to be Christ, I believe. And we’ve documented that, I mean just going back very quickly, anti is a Greek prefix, it has two meanings: opposed to, or in the place of. And Constantine was the first one who came up with it, but he called it, Vicarius Christi, because he was speaking Latin, so he called himself Vicarius Christi. Vicarius is the Latin equivalent of anti in the Greek. Vicarius Christi means in the place of Christ. So this is who—
Tom:
The Vicar of Christ, as he is referred to.
Dave:
Right. This is who the Antichrist will be. Now, look, atheism is out. These guys are not going to take over the world. A false Christianity will take over the world. Hinduism is not going to take over the world, Buddhism. Or Islam, and I have some ex-Muslim friends who try to persuade me that the Antichrist, he’s going to be an imam, he’s going to—this is going to be Islam. I don’t think so. Why would he be called Antichrist? Be called some thing, anti something else. Tom, it will—it’s a religious trip. And religion is growing. They can’t get away from it, and you just said it: atheism is a religion.
Tom:
Yeah.
Dave.
No question about it.
Tom:
But let’s throw another term in there, Dave. They like to refer themselves as humanists. Now that’s—when you take a look a humanism, now the Antichrist, to me, fits right in, because he sets himself up as God to be worshipped as God, but God is man, He’s the man/God. And he says, not only will he have signs and wonders—and there’s another side to that. Dave, you remember C. S. Lewis, we don’t promote everything that he says but he did have some incredible insights.
Dave:
Yeah.
Tom:
And one, in The Screwtape Letters he talked about this materialist. The materialist magician. One who doesn’t believe in miracles, but basically believes in psychic phenomenon and all these other kinds of things that come out of the human psyche. So, I think, these atheists, who are humanists, they just fit right into the religion of the Antichrist, as far as I’m concerned.
Dave:
Yeah, well it’s—but they will become believers in the false Christ, the whole world will.
Tom:
The man, okay, the man of lawlessness, as the scriptures describe him.
Dave:
Right. The whole world will be deceived. And there will be only those who open their hearts to Christ, who believe in Him, believe in the gospel. I believe the gospel will be preached during the great tribulation, because we read of a great company in heaven. They have come out of great tribulation, they have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. They overcame the Antichrist. Well, in Revelation 12, where it says the whole world will be deceived by the devil. It calls him, that old serpent the devil, the dragon who deceives the whole world. But not quite everyone because it talks about those who overcame him with the blood of the Lamb, the word of their testimony, they loved not their lives unto death. And so out of this great tribulation there will be some believers, and apparently a huge multitude. But the rest will be deceived, including the atheists and the Dalai Lama, and whoever it is, and they will all be united. We’re heading for a one world religion, we know that, and a one world government. And it will be under the Antichrist who will be not only the world emperor, but he’ll be the Pope. I’m not saying he’s the Pope, he’s not the Catholic Pope. The Pope, I believe, will be his right hand man as the pope was of Constantine. So you want to learn a little bit about the Antichrist you could study Constantine. He was the emperor of course, who supposedly became a Christian, but did not, and he was still a pagan to his death. Now that’s what it’s going to be.
Tom:
Mmhmm. And Dave, again, the idea that atheism is anti-religion—only on the surface. But you have many of these atheists, militant atheists who they believe in psychic phenomenon, they believe in the kinds of things that they thing they can explain from a materialist world view. But just like the Buddhist who says, oh I don’t believe in God—just below that there are all kinds of gods and goddesses and demi-gods that they believe in, and they go through all of these religious rituals to appease these gods. So I think it’s the same thing.
Dave:
The hard core atheist though, the Dawkins’ and Harris’ and Dennetts’ and so forth, they probably don’t believe in psychic phenomenon, but they believe in something as miraculous. Tom, they know the law of biogenesis: life only comes from life. And they tell you, Oh no, although this universe, big bang, was sterilized a trillion times over, what do you know, out of this dead matter came life! So, they are mystics, in another sense, although they would deny it.
Gary:
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to address in a future Contending for the Faith, stay tuned, we’ll provide our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.
