contending for the faith

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily.You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page .

CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

Now, Contending for the faith. In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and TA, having recently sat through an Easter service at a fairly large Evangelical church, many things that you have been talking about came to mind. First of all, it was primarily a production, dramatic readings, a large choir, and a full orchestra took up most of the service. It was definitely impressive but hardly convicting.  Rather than quoting scripture, Bible content was given as stories. That seems to be the method many churches prefer today, impress the lost, tell them stories rather than present the scriptures that convict them of sin. One last thing before you comment, the Bible story given emphasized Friday as the day Christ was crucified.

            Tom:

Well Dave, you know, some people would say, Well most times the lost only attend church on Easter and Christmas.

            Dave:

Right.

            Tom:

So let’s reshape our presentation, our service so that it appeals to the lost, or those who have sort of wandered away, but then came back with family, and so on. So that’s really the target, so what do you think?

            Dave:

Well Tom, you know what I would say. The gospel was never declared to be appealing, to tell someone they’re a sinner, separated from God by their own wickedness, their own rebellion, self-centeredness, and you’ve got to repent, and there’s only one way, that is Jesus Christ died to pay the penalty for your sins, you either accept Him or you reject Him, it’s up to you. Tom, that’s not an appealing message, that’s  not going to give people a warm, fuzzy feeling, and they want to—well, we should come back to this church next week, or listen—tune in on this radio program or TV show, Oh, we love it! Now there is much to be grateful for, and when you receive Christ you have a whole new universe of blessings. Relationship with God awakens, but you can’t tell them about that until they’ve come to the point of repenting of their sins, and recognizing that Christ had a reason for dying. It was our sins that nailed Him there. If it were not for our sins He wouldn’t have had to die. 

            Tom:

Yeah, and Dave, it seems to me, and I’m not setting a format for every resurrection day, which I like that term better than Easter, but I would just love to have the gospel explained.

            Dave:

Right.

            Tom:

For 30 years as a Roman Catholic, you know, we had all the imagery, all the liturgy, all of those things that were impressive, yet I never understood what it was all about. And it’s only through an explanation of the gospel; what do you mean, I am separated from God, eternal separation? I mean, what did I ever do? You know, explaining that the wages of sin is death, and that God is a just God and the penalty must be paid, it had to be paid. Either I pay for it, which is separation from God for all eternity, or Christ paid that penalty for me. Anyway…

            Dave:

Well, Tom, I’m thinking what you said about yourself not understanding the gospel, reminds me of a mutual friend, my interpreter in Russia, who was raised in the Soviet Union, I think wore the red scarves as a young girl. And when she got saved, and went to see her grandmother, who was in the Orthodox church, to try to give her the gospel, it was almost impossible.  She couldn’t explain it to her because her grandmother was—she knew which icons to kiss in which order, she knew all the ritual of the Orthodox church. But finally, when this friend had finished here presentation of the gospel it just went right over her head. She says, Yeah, that’s one thing I never could understand, why did that boy have to be on the cross? Can you imagine! This lady was in her eighties, and she’s been going to church faithfully, even during Soviet days.

            Tom:

I can imagine it quite vividly, Dave.

            Dave:

Wow!

            Tom:

“One last thing before your comment,” the Bible story given emphasized Friday as the day Christ was crucified.

            Dave:

Well, Tom—

            Tom:

Well, let’s give the simple explanation—

            Dave:

The simple explanation.

            Tom:

—start with Friday and count them all.

            Dave:

Yeah. Well, Jesus said, and he’s quoting the scriptures, as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly, so the Son of man must be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Now, you may get three days, part of Friday and Saturday and part of Sunday, but you can’t get three nights. You’ve got Fridays night, then you’ve got Saturday night, going on two of them, you cannot get three days and three nights, and the scripture is very specific, so I won’t go into all the details, but Jesus was crucified on Thursday. There is no getting around that, and the Last Supper was not the Passover. But Tom, we have to devote a whole program to that.

            Tom:

Well, I think you have given our audience something to think about here.  It’s amazing, and we’ve addressed this before, Dave. Some ideas come up and we just accept them without thinking, such as the idea that there were three wise men, all right? You know, you’d say, well it’s not a big deal. Well it is a big deal. Let’s get the scriptures right, let’s believe what the scriptures teach, and take that into our heart and mind and live that way. 

            Dave:

Well, I’ll give them one more quick one. Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the day that the lambs were taken out of the flock to be put under observation for four days to know whether they were without spot and blemish, and then they were killed. This was the Passover lamb, all right? Count it. If He rode into Jerusalem on the 10^th of Nisson, that was the day the lambs were taken out of the flock, and on the 14^th they were slain. Count it out. That brings you to Thursday. The lambs were slain on Thursday, and Jesus had to be on the cross, the Lamb of God, the same time that the lambs were being slain in Israel. Nothing works out except you follow the scriptures.

This is a link to our weekly radio program Search the Scriptures Daily.You may listen to the program by clicking on the "mp3" link above.For more listening options, please see our Radio Page .

CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call, here’s this week’s question: Dear Dave and Tom, You have made a reference to Pascal’s Wager suggesting that it is a better gamble to believe in God and live by his rules, be accountable to him, and expect what he says will follow after death than to be an atheist, and have no belief in what follows after death. The idea behind this is that a believer has everything to gain if he or she is right, and nothing to lose if he is wrong. Whereas if the atheist is wrong and the believer in God is right, the atheist is in serious trouble. Although I’m in agreement, I thought you might be interested in the atheist’s wager, which I would like you to comment on: You should live your life, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in God. If there is no God, you have lost nothing, and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, he may judge you on your merits coupled with your commitments, and not just on whether or not you believed in him.

Tom:

Seems like they’re making up an idea of God, the very least we could say is, in this wager, this is not the Biblical God.

Dave:

Well Tom, now people often say, Well, if I live a good life. Well, I ask them a simple question; By whose standards? You know, I was driving with a Seik, quite a long journey in a limousine to go to a conference.

Tom:

This would be a Hindu.

Dave:

Well, it’s a sect of Hinduism. And I’m trying to witness to him, give him the gospel. Well, first of all, he doesn’t think he’s a sinner, he doesn’t need Christ, he’s not a sinner, he’s lived a good life. And I said, Well, you know, the very first commandment is, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, strength, mind, and so forth, and you love your neighbor as yourself. And I think you know in your conscience that that’s what you ought to do. Well, he says, I haven’t done that for one second. So, whose standard are we talking about? Well, if I live a good life—wait a minute, what about—you see, what about your motives? You never lusted, you never were selfish? It only takes one sin to be a sinner, it takes one murder to be a murderer, and it’s God who is going to judge you. You’re going to have to go by His standards, and he’s laid them out. Now, if you want to say, I don’t need to accept Christ, you sent Christ to die for my sins, he’s God who became a man, and this is what you said was the penalty that had to be paid, and—No, I don’t think I need to go by that. You’re like Adam and Eve back in the Garden. Well, God says, Don’t eat of this tree—Ah, I think we can do that. So, first of all you are proving that that you are a rebel. You are not willing to accept what God says, and I would say that that is very, very serious.

Tom:

Mmhmm. And Dave, it’s amazing, all of this goes back to the lie of the serpent, which is Satan, in the Garden of Eden. He began by; Yea, has God said? So, God’s standards? Well, wait a minute, are you sure those are the standards? God’s rules, is it really a rule? Do we really need to conform to this—is that really what God meant? Wow! That’s the way it began, and we’re seeing it now, I mean, I hate to just say in spades, but it’s just in overwhelming ways.

Dave:

Tom, the Bible lays it out pretty clearly. Romans Chapter two—Romans Chapter one says everybody knows God exists. And you know that He has to be a personal being to bring this into existence, and to bring us into existence, no question about that. Romans Chapter 2 says: Everyone knows that God has laws. We’ve got laws for the universe, He must have moral laws as well. In fact it says, His laws are written in the conscience, everyone’s conscience. It says when the Gentiles who have not the law, in other words they didn’t get it on Mount Sinai, do by nature the things that are contained in the law, they are a law unto themselves, they bear witness of the law written in their hearts. And now here’s what it says: Accusing or excusing one another. Now, they are judging one another. How are they doing it? By what they know in their conscience to be right and wrong. So I could just ask this person, Well, can you tell me that you have always lived up to your conscience? Does your conscience tell you that right now that what you are saying in rebellion against God, you are not willing to accept his terms? Are you saying that that does not violate your conscience? I think you’ve got some serious problems.

Tom:

Dave, it’s also interesting that if we could have a person—say alright, there is no God, but you make up a list of rules for yourself, okay, based on what you believe is, you know, has to do with integrity and good morality and so on, make that list up. I guarantee you, they can’t live up to their own list, let alone the standard that God has set.

Dave:

Right, and we mentioned last week, we talked briefly about Michael Vick last week; trained dogs to fight, and finally was arrested for this. There was an outcry from everyone, nobody complained, You’re being too harsh on him, because everyone in their conscience knew that’s not the thing to do. This wasn’t something that society had discussed, and we’d come to some agreement about it. This is in the conscience, and you can’t really escape that, and if you’re going to take your own way, set your own standards, your conscience will tell you, you just don’t do that with God.

Tom:

Yeah, I’m also thinking about the governor of New York, he made a commitment to his wife, broke that commitment, I mean, that’s a matter of conscience even more than, well, society says.

Dave:

Right.

Gary:

You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned.  Now

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call, here is this week’s question:  Dear Dave and Tom, I have a friend whom I first met when we attended an evangelical church together a number of years ago.  I lost contact with him for a few years after I moved away.  Then a short while ago I heard from him.  I was shocked to find out that he had converted to Roman Catholicism.  I guess I just don’t understand how a born-again Christian could do such a thing.  I’ve since heard that such a thing is not that rare these days.  I’m still mystified by it.  What’s your take on such a thing?

            Tom:

Well Dave, we have had some big name evangelicals—well, “big name” I guess that’s relative, but certainly notable Evangelicals convert to Roman Catholicism, one, the head of the Evangelical Theology Society, another would be Thomas Elliot, this would be Elizabeth Elliot’s brother, who left Gordon Conwell because of his conversion to Roman Catholicism.

            Dave:

Well, because, Tom, professors have to sign an evangelical creed, and you couldn’t do that if you were a Catholic, so it was just no way they could keep him.

            Tom:

But the point here, Dave, as I guess with this question, can a truly born-again Christian convert to Roman Catholicism?  Now, before you answer that, let me give a little background information of what it takes for an adult to convert to Roman Catholicism.  It’s called the Rite of Christian—although it’s really Catholic—The Rite of Catholic Initiation for Adults.  Dave, I’ve got one of my favorite books—I have Jim McCarthy’s book here, which we offer, and when I teach about Roman Catholicism, as a former Roman Catholic, I think this is one of the best books to use.  Your book is great, but Jim gets into the experiential side, the practical side of what Catholics go through, and that’s why I like to teach it.  Now, an evangelical, you would think, recognizes that you’re not saved by works, correct?  Well, that’s the gospel according to Rome, that you need to get to heaven, it’s going to be based on your works, and it begins with baptism, certainly infant baptism for the most part, but for adults, they now have to go through this rite, this ritual in order to, first of all, be accepted as a—they would call it, a catacuminate, that is, one who is in process to become a Roman Catholic.

            Dave:

Let me interrupt, I’m sorry.

            Tom:

Sure.

            Dave:

I won’t name the person, but he had an evangelical radio program for 18 years, I think, and he had been a Catholic, and he had moved from the Catholic Church over, supposedly, to salvation.  He writes books that are very thick, and I debated him, and one of the things he was proving was, it is not by faith alone.  It was because that’s not Catholicism—the Catholic Church, “it’s not by faith alone.”  Tom, you know what that would do.  If it were by faith alone, the Catholic Church is out of business!

            Tom:

Sure, because that’s the basis of Trent.  The Council of Trent was a reaction to the Reformation, and if you want to know what’s in granite, what cannot be changed, according to Roman Catholic Church teachings, all you need to do is go to their infallible councils.  Now, here’s the simple point I’m trying to make, that an evangelical who believes it’s by faith alone, all right?—who has received the gospel, is born again because of his belief that Christ paid the full penalty for your sins, now he’s going to revert to Roman Catholicism.  Even the conversion process and it is a process, you have to be good enough, you have to prove yourself worthy to enter the Catholic Church.  On what basis?  Well, I’m going to read here:  On the basis of good works!  Roman Catholicism teaches that adult candidates for baptism must prepare their souls by performing good works.  This is on the basis of the Roman Catholic catechism.  Now, not only is Roman Catholicism salvation by works, but now I have to prove myself worthy to enter into it by good works.  Dave, what does that do to an evangelical’s belief.  Obviously, he didn’t have a belief in the salvation by faith.

            Dave:

Yeah, apparently not. 

            Tom:

So, why are we seeing more and more of these people?

            Dave:

Tom, I could give you—I’ve debated two or three of them—and one of the reasons they give—Well, I went to the church fathers.  You want to know what Christianity is, get back as close as you can to the apostles and see what the church fathers—why, it seems to me they were Catholics.  I mean, they had this ritual, and they had that, they believed in the real presence, and the Eucharist, and so forth.  Well then, I think I had better become a Catholic too.  That’s really the basis, not the basis of truth, Tom, not the basis of sound doctrine, but the basis of history.  You remember when I debated Karl Keating, we offer that debate, and the debate was “Which is the True Church?”  Is the Catholic Church the true church?  He was really upset with me because I didn’t go to history.  I say you want to know what the true church is, go to the Bible.  Okay.

            Tom:

And Dave, even that’s dishonest, because if you read the church fathers—I’m not recommending it, but you know, somebody wants to do it, go ahead—but even a cursory view of the church fathers and what they taught, many of them stood against present day dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.  So there is a very selective thrust here to support the Roman Catholic gospel of works, and their dogmas, their rituals, their liturgy.

            Dave:

But if you went to Augustine, of course, a lot of Catholicism comes right out of Augustine.  But Tom, he wanted to know the reason, it’s not a biblical reason, they didn’t go to the Bible, they went to history, and what do these men say and do?  Well then, I think that must be the right way.

            Tom:

And, of course, they are rejecting the gospel, whether they call themselves born-again Christians or evangelical Christians converting to Roman Catholicism, they are rejecting the gospel of Christ.

You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay with us.

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call.  Here is this week’s question:  Dear Dave and TA, What can you tell me about A Course in Miracles?  It’s being promoted by Ophra Winfrey and it doesn’t sound quite right.

            Tom:

Well, it isn’t right, looking at it from a biblical standpoint, but let me give you a little background.  Dave, this is actually Ophra Winfrey’s radio program, and Maryann Williamson, who has probably been the voice of A Course in Miracles, has been promoting this in her books, and what her program is about.  So, she is—I think she has a year, and she is teaching A Course in Miracles on the Ophra Winfrey radio, and it’s called, “Ophra and Friends” what is “A Course in Miracles?” 

            Dave:

Well, Tom, you’ve just taken a good look at it, I’m sure, and I would be relying on my memory, I’m trying to remember—well, this lady was a psychology professor at Columbia--?

            Tom:

I think it was Columbia University.

            Dave:

Okay, and she had this voice that kept persisting, “take it down, take it down” and finally she asked her colleagues, other psych professors, what should she do?  And finally, she succumbed to it, and out came this “Course in Miracles,” supposedly dictated by Jesus, who contradicted the Bible.  But you had Gerald Jampolsky who was a psychiatrist, and I’m sure he was on Ophra Winfrey; he was certainly on Robert Schuller’s program.

            Tom:

O, by the way, Dave, the psychologist’s name was Helen Schucman.

            Dave:

Right, thank you, original lady who got this.

            Tom:

And she fought it all the way, although she was obedient to write it down, but she had trouble with it.

            Dave:

This is “A Course in Miracles,” it said.  And among the various things the course teaches, I suppose this will all come out in the Ophra Winfrey Radio—there is no such thing as sin.  You’re not a sinner, that’s just a negative way of looking at things.  Certainly, Jesus didn’t come to die for our sins, Jesus came to teach us there is no such thing, there’s nothing to be forgiven.  And it’s just totally anti-biblical, anti-Christian, anti-Christ.  Remember Gerald Jampolsky, he was touched with a peacock feather in the back of his head by an assistant of Muktananda—

            Tom:

Yeah, an Indian guru.

            Dave:

Right and we talk about him in Yoga and the Body of Christ—an evil man. 

By the way, if you know the book, Death of a Guru, Rabi Maharaja’s mother left him, as a little boy, to join Muktananda.  She became Muktananda’s sort of right hand woman, I guess.  Muktananda, we expose his sexual perversion, his evil in Yoga and the Body of Christ.  He’s dead now, but it all kind of ties together.  But anyway, when Jampolsky was touched with a peacock feather on the back of his head, he didn’t even know it was coming, it sent him off on a trip like, supposedly, and they call it the “shaktipat.”  Shakti is another one of Kali’s names; it means “the force.”  Shakti is the universal force, the Star War’s force, and shaktipat, the guru touches you, like we have a few people on TV who are trying to play this game as well.   Now, they’ve got it a little bit wrong because in the Bible when you fell in the presence of God, you fell forward on your face; when you are not really belonging to God, you fall in the opposite direction.  So, when Jesus said to the soldiers in the garden, I AM, they fell backwards.  But that’s the way they fall in these charismatic meetings, they’ve got to have a catcher there to catch them.  Anyway, Tom, sorry, I’m taking too much time, but this is the inspirer of the “Course in Miracles” told Jampolsky, this is what you are being prepared for.  So he brought the “Course in Miracles” into his practice, his psychiatric practice, and he was one of the heroes that Robert Schuller interviewed on his program, “The Hour of Power” and had him pray, open in prayer.  Tom, tying in with what you are talking about here, you get this error going, this delusion, and it just spreads everywhere.

            Tom:

And Dave, one of the reasons, I believe, is because it’s so positive, it wants to put away negative.  Maryann Williamson, for example, said, well, growing up she  had guilt and she had, even though her lifestyle was nothing to be proud of, she says that it was love that transformed her.  So, this is all love oriented, this is all a God of love, certainly not anyone who would send anybody to hell, this is not a God who would correct or judge, and so on.  It all comes back to loving and being kind, and all these platitudes that have some value, we’re not denying that, but it’s not true in terms of the full counsel of God, what He’s about.

            Dave:

And Tom, it’s a long time since I thought of this, but you might have it at your finger tips:  Gerald Jampolsky wrote a book about, Nothing but Love or, that wasn’t quite the title.  But anyway, this isn’t love, this is what you’re being led into, but it’s not the love of God.

            Tom:

Jampolsky, I mean, his reputation was, and he’s the psychiatrist of love. 

            Dave:

Yeah, well, he wrote this book, inspired by “A Course in Miracles” teach only love.  And another book he wrote:  Love is Letting Go of Fear.  And he used the teachings of “A Course in Miracles” in his psychiatric practice. 

You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned.  Now:

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call.  Here is this week’s question:  Dear Dave and Tom: I’m a fairly new and rather enthusiastic Christian who really wants to grow spiritually.  There are so many things I have heard other Christians say and do that I would like to see take place in my own life, but I’m not sure how to go about it.  For example, they claim that God guides their lives, helping them make decisions.  Do you believe that’s true?  If so, how can that happen in my life?

            Tom:

Dave, I believe God guides my life.  I know hanging around you for almost three decades, some of the examples that you’ve given on how God has guided your lives, you and Ruth and your family made decisions based on God’s giving you an indication of what you were to do in certain situations.  That’s happened in my life, but how does a young Christian, who really doesn’t know the Word of God, not really apprised of what the Word of God is about, the Bible.  How does a young Christian go about that?

            Dave:

Well, Abraham’s servant, back in Genesis 24, I think it is, said, I, being in the way, the Lord led me.  Whoever this person is who wants God’s guidance, are you serving the Lord?  He’s not going to just guide you for everything.  Well, I’m not going to get out of bed this morning until the Lord shows me it’s really His will.  No, but if you are serving the Lord, and you are in the way that He wants you to go—

            Tom:

That is, growing in the faith, or is it more than that?

            Dave:

Well, look, are you doing something worthwhile for the Lord?  And is there something worthwhile that He would like to lead you into or what would you need Him to guide you to do?  I mean, you’re just going about your business and you really don’t even think about the Lord.  How often do you thank Him for His redemption?  How often do you tell God you love Him?  Are you really praying without ceasing?  Are you walking in communion with Him?  Well then, you might expect some guidance.  But if you just maybe now and then want to—Wow, really I wish the Lord would tell me what to do in this situation.  He might not even tell you that, because you haven’t been walking with Him in a way that would cause Him to continue to guide you.  That’s a problem, and we need to—and I speak to my own heart.  How often have I told the Lord I love him today, thank Jesus for His salvation?  Well, I must confess, today I forgot, I didn’t even do it once.  That’s horrible, because I do not like that to ever happen.  So, well, I guess I did it a couple of times, yeah, but not like I would like to.  So Tom, I could just quickly say, here was our family, my wife and I, four children, ages 8 to 15, and a VW bus.  We were in Lebanon, and we were in a serious situation.  I didn’t know that war was breaking out, but we prayed.  I remember very clearly, we prayed one night, Lord; you’ve got to guide us.  Are we going to go on, are we going to get out of here?  We had a double transit visa to go through Syria and to Jordan, and then we thought we would sneak across the metal-bound gate.  Well, you can’t, don’t do that!  But anyway, that night—well, not during the night, but in the morning when we woke up, we had asked for four—now, here’s a specific case of guidance—we had asked for four specific signs.  It’s like putting out a fleece, but we didn’t know which way to go.  We said Lord, would you please show us what to do, and if this happens, and this happens, and this happens, and this happens.  Our children were there my wife Ruth and I, and I laid out these four things.  Now, George Muller used to say, you don’t just say, Okay, God, hit me with a bolt of lightening, or do something.  But you could put down on one side of the paper what—this is one set of alternatives, here’s another set over here, Lord, show us which one.  And we just asked for four specifics.  I can tell you the next morning all four were telling us, Get out of here!  And we headed North through Syria, I don’t know how long, maybe an hour or so, we had been over the border into Turkey, and we pulled into a gas station.  Well, of course we don’t speak Turkish, he’s making like an airplane, and dropping bombs and so forth, and we knew a war had broken out that we could have been in the middle of on our way to Jordan, and God graciously delivered us.  He will guide us in all kinds of ways.

            Tom:

Dave, the other part of this, and we’re alluding to it in our other segments, as you get to know the Lord, as you grow in your personal, intimate relationship with Him, you know His Word, you know what He said, Jesus said, If you love me, keep my commandments.  Well, He’s talking about everything that He said, all right, not just the Ten Commandments.  But that helps, because you know, it’s like me in my relationship with my wife, I know what she likes and what she doesn’t like.  I know what may upset her, what may really bless her and please her, and that guides me about how I go about my life.  I think it’s the same with the Lord, we have to grow in our relationship with Him, we have to know Him better through His Word, primarily.

            Dave:

But we want Him to guide us into His will so that we can be more fruitful.  That must be our motive and our desire; otherwise, what’s the point in seeking guidance from God.

            Tom:

But isn’t I wonderful, some people I know say, you’re kidding, you’re telling me that God can actually guide and direct your lives?  Absolutely!  It’s not a matter of being a theologian, somebody who understands the secrets; it’s just a matter of your relationship with Him.  Is it growing, is it developing or not.

            Dave:

Well, Tom, you know, I could tell hundreds, literally hundreds of incidents of this kind of guidance.  Okay, I being in the way, the Lord led me.

Gary:

You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation. Please stay with us.  Now:

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call.  Here’s this week’s question:  “Dear Dave and TA:  In the Book of Revelation, when our Lord is speaking to the seven churches, he has some pretty harsh things to say to most of them.  For example, He tells the church at Ephesus to: repent and do the first works or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lamp stand from its place unless you repent.  He tells the church at Pergamos that: because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, and you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate, repent or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.  He tells the church of Thyatira regarding Jezebel: indeed I will cast her into a sick bed and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation unless they repent of their deeds and I will kill her children with death.  He tells the church at Sardis: if you will not watch I will come upon you as a thief as you will not know what hour I will come upon you.  He tells the church at Laodicea: I will vomit you out of my mouth.  My question is- if these churches represent churches down through history, can we expect Jesus to deal similarly with the church of today?  If so, how do you see that happening?”

            Tom:

Well, Dave, first of all, I mean, it’s interesting to read these verses, I mean, Jesus is dealing with the church, this is discipline, this is those whom He loves He corrects, He chastises, He scourges.

            Dave:

Now, He’s calling them to repentance, and it does not sound as though Jesus is at all pleased with the developments in the early church.  So why are we going back to the early church, to the church fathers in order to get classical Christianity as they call it.

            Tom:

And Dave, much of what was in the early church, this is Nicolaitanes, this is the beginning of a clergy class, and these are the roots of Roman Catholicism.

            Dave:

Well, Tom, as I said earlier, all of the epistles, most of them were written to bring correction, and we read them for that purpose to gather some correction for ourselves.  And Paul, again, quoting Paul: says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, is profitable, or to be used for doctrine (there we get doctrine again) reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness.” And that would include the letters to the seven churches from Christ.  So, we’re going to get some doctrine, we’re going to get some correction and instruction in righteousness.  Now, what does that mean about the church of today?  Well, we have such a variety of churches today the Lord has to deal with them separately, but not too many of them are even heeding His Word.  They’re not reading the Bible; they don’t really honor that it as God’s Word; and they’ve got phony translations, like The Message and the Renovaré Spiritual Formation Bible, and so forth.  So, the correction will be applied in judgment after death for the leaders who led people astray.  Now the Lord doesn’t interfere—He wrote to these churches, it doesn’t tell us how many actually heeded what he wrote.

            Tom:

Well, all their lamps went out, Dave.  Right?  I mean, you go to Turkey today, which is that area, try and find a church with any light at all, not that there aren’t some believers there.

            Dave:

It’s horrible.  So Tom, the question for us is- what will we learn for the church today?  What will we learn, and what will we put into practice?  Where will we allow ourselves to be corrected?  And from everything that we’ve been studying about the Emerging Church, I don’t get the impression that this is what the churches today want.  They want to get farther from the Bible, and they want to follow some example of lighting candles and icons and tradition, and so forth.  It’s up to individuals, and Tom, I’m sure that God is able to speak to the hearts of individuals who then bring a corrective process influence in the local church where they are.  And I was just; in fact, I was just speaking at a local church that I think is terrific.  They really go by the Bible.  They were not always that way, and they have come to this by obedience to the Word of God, and I’m sure many other churches are doing the same.  But at the same time, many of them are under the condemnation that Christ gives to these seven churches. 

            Tom:

Right.  Now Dave, just to throw this in, when you say “local church” we’re not talking about THE local church, we’re just talking about a church in a local community, right?  Dave, the other thing about this is, at least in my mind, we need to have a heart for God’s Word, we need to be willing to desire what he desires, or else, I think, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, where it talks about, God will send strong delusion.  I think if our hearts are for what God does not want, then strong delusion is going to take over, and we’re going to reap what we sow.

            Dave:

Gary:

            You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call.  Still to come, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, please stay tuned.

            CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH

In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to question from listeners and readers of The Berean Call.  Here is this week’s question:  Dear Dave and Tom:  What amazes you guys the most about God?

            Tom:

And Dave, I think about this a lot, God is amazing.  But I think in one sense the most amazing thing to me is why God puts up with any of us, why he puts up with me.  And I think about my own life and just how I fall short of the mark and so on, and why does God care about me, why has he done so much?  And what He has done is incredible!  Can you help me with that?  Why does God put up with us, Dave?

            Dave:

Well, that may be a bit easier than some other things I could think of.  It’s his grace, it’s his love, God is love.  So love, there is all things.  From our standpoint, why would He love us, of course.  But the reason is, because this is his character.  But more ponderous, I guess, is God, how did you get to be God?  I ask him that all the time, not facetiously but He knows that I know that He is God, He must be God, He must have always been God, and you don’t get to be God.  This is what Mormons think, you know, they are going to get to be a god.

            Tom:

And He just forgot that they were god—-

            Dave:

But I have said it many times, God, Lord, you expect a lot of me.  Here I am, a peanut brain— and you expect me to believe that you have always existed, always, no beginning, and no end!  You know everything, you know where every subatomic particle on every atom, everyone whoever will be.  You know what every person who has ever lived or ever will live, every thought of theirs, for everything they are going to think in the future, you always knew it.  That is beyond my comprehension!  On the other hand, Tom, I know it must be—I know that there couldn’t have been a time when God did not exist and somehow He got to be God, or He came out of nothing.  I know that He wouldn’t dare, I mean, if He is the Creator of the universe He has got to know where every subatomic particle ever was or ever will be.  And you remember in Acts 15, where they have this discussion, this big discussion about well, what about the Gentiles?  Are they supposed to be under the law, and so forth?  One of the things that James says is Acts 15:18, “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.”  Now you think about that.  If God knows everything that He’s going to ever do, He must know everything that other people are going to do, because much that He does is in correction, reproof or stop the destruction, or whatever, to whatever extent He wants to, He  has to intervene in the affairs of men.  Now, He doesn’t do that often, as far as we recognize.  But to be the Creator of the universe, you mean start this thing rolling!  Didn’t He know Adam and Eve would sin?  Of course he did, he already had Christ as the Lamb slain as it were from the foundation of the world.  That is what amazes me about God! 

            Tom:

Dave, in the earlier segments we went over so many things that are going on, this Ancient Future thing, going back to a time period, whether it be the 1^st century or the Middle Ages or the Reformation, or whatever it might be, studying the church to see how we’re to go about it—we’re talking about things that amaze us about the character of God.  What about getting to know him and understanding him better?  Why not put our energies that way?  I do a lot of counseling, even though that’s not what I’m really supposed to be doing, but everybody should be a counselor, everybody should minister to, you know, brothers and sisters in the Lord, and so on.  But over the years as I’ve been doing that, more often than not I have to spend most of my time correcting errors that people have about the character of God.  They think God is this way or that way, I say, wait a minute, let’s go to the Scriptures.  If we truly put our time and energy in on getting to know Him, understanding Him better and how we’re going to do it, the Word, the Word, the Word.

            Dave:

And seeing how He guides in our lives, what He does, His mercy and His grace, and Tom, we shouldn’t let a day, we shouldn’t let many minutes go by without telling the Lord, I love you with all my heart.

            Tom:

Well Dave, now wait a minute, I have to stop you right there.  When did you start loving God, and did you immediately love Him with all your heart, or was it as you got to know Him?

            Dave:

Well, I can’t remember because I became a—well, look, I was raised on the Bible, and that didn’t make me a Christian, but I knew the Bible, I knew the gospel, I wanted to be a Christian.  And I think I mentioned it before, the thing that bugged me was, well, he says, Whosoever believeth shall have everlasting life, and supposing—I do believe, but suppose there’s a secret doubt somewhere deep inside of me.  That really bothered me, and the man who led me to the Lord took me to Revelation 3:20, which I knew very well already:  Behold, I stand at the door and knock, and when he hears my voice and opens the door I’ll come in.  He said, Well, just leave it up to Jesus, you’re trying to tap faith in your faith, just invite him in, which I did and He came in and transformed me.  Now, how much did I love Him then?  I had very little understanding, but exactly as you said, Tom, as we grow in our understanding of God through His Word, and we see Him work in our lives, and we think of the times He should have just wiped us out, you know, because we have failed so badly, and yet He still loves us.  Well, we love Him because He first loved us.