understanding the scriptures
Gary:
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to answer in a future Contending for the Faith, stay tuned, we’ll provide our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Now, our final segment:
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
And we return once again to 2000 with Dave and Tom.
Tom:
Dave, before I start reading the remaining verses of Isaiah for the purposes of our discussion on salvation, can you give us an overview of what the prophet Isaiah is presenting in this chapter?
Dave:
It’s really a tremendous prophesy of the suffering of the Messiah which, of course, Jews today still can’t believe. They try to explain it away—well, that was the suffering of Israel or whatever. But it’s very clear; in fact, Isaiah has been introducing to us the servant of Jehovah. It is through the servant of Jehovah that salvation will come to the world. For example, if you go back in chapter 52:10: “The Lord has made bare his holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God.” It even tells us that this is for the Gentiles, for everyone. In verse 13 of the previous chapter: “Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonished at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man and his form more than the sons of men: So shall he sprinkle many nations—” So, he is going to bring salvation to the ends of the earth it says. And so now, Isaiah presents to us this one who obviously can only be the Messiah—tells us how He is going to be rejected by His own people but he will be—grow up before God like tender plant—He will be approved of God—He will be hated—He will be imprisoned—He will be beaten, rejected, despised and He will suffer at the hands of man but at the same time He is suffering at the hands of man He will suffer at the hands of God for our sins. It’s a tremendous chapter. It’s all put together here in this one chapter. However, it is in absolute harmony with the rest of Isaiah and with the rest of Scripture.
Tom:
Right, it’s prophetic and we are looking back from the New Testament and anybody who will do that, as we said in a previous show. If you have some Jewish friends take this passage Isaiah 53, type it out and give it to some of your friends just asking the question, again, not saying where it is from or who wrote it, at the beginning, and ask them who this is a picture of and my guess would be that they would say, oh this is Jesus.
Dave:
Almost without a doubt. Then you can tell them that this is not written by some Christian but this is your great prophet Isaiah. This is what he had to say. Now, who is he talking about? Obviously it couldn’t be the nation Israel because it says “He” was wounded for “our” transgressions. So, the nation of Israel couldn’t have been wounded for their own transgressions. You wouldn’t distinguish between “he” and “we.” I’m sorry, Tom, go ahead.
Tom:
That’s all right. The purposes of going through Isaiah 53 is because we are talking about the doctrine of salvation and here is a clear picture of what Christ did. We talked about knowing, you know, we are saved by faith. Our faith is in Christ, believing in Him and believing in Him is not just the name, it’s what He did, what He accomplished and this spells it out as clearly as any passages of the Scriptures.
Dave:
Amen.
Tom:
So, picking up with verse 8: “He was taken from prison and from judgment:”—Now, as we are reading through this, those who have read the New Testament, who have gone through the gospels, if this doesn’t come to life for you read it again— “He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.”
Dave:
And, exactly that happened to Christ. He was taken from prison, from judgment. Who could declare His generation because He is cut off? He didn’t have any physical progeny, any physical descendants on this earth. He had no physical children. He was not married.
Tom:
Right. Contrary to what Mormons teach.
Dave:
But He wasn’t cut off for himself as Daniel 9 says, but for the sins of His people—very clear.
Tom:
Right. We just read it—for the transgression of my people he was stricken. Verse 9, “And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.” I mean, this is an innocent victim, right? This is one who was put to death and the idea was to—the form of death, crucifixion—was to embarrass Him, was to mock Him and to put Him in the grave with the wicked among those who die on a Cross.
Dave:
It’s also prophetically accurate. He was crucified between two thieves and one of the thieves acknowledged; this man has done no wrong. So, He was falsely accused. Also, He was buried in a rich man’s grave. So again, you have an accurate prophesy.
Tom:
“Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him;” Why is that, Dave?
Dave:
Well, for the same reason that it says in Hebrews 12:2—“who for the joy that was set before him Christ endured the Cross.” And for the joy of redeeming mankind God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. So, it’s amazing but God was pleased to bruise his Son, to put upon Him the penalty, make Him pay the penalty for our sins because of His love for us. Because out of this would come forgiveness and eternity with Him.
Tom:
“He hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.”
Dave:
So it’s God that put Him to grief.
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
And Jesus said no man taketh my life from me; I lay it down of myself. This command I received from my Father. It is God who made his soul an offering for sin. That’s why we are saved not because of the physical sufferings. People make the sign of the Cross—they think they can wave a Cross at demons and it will frighten them and it doesn’t. It’s because of what transpired on that Cross. That there He became the sin sacrifice. Now, it says He will see His seed. No, it says in the previous verse that He is cut off out of the land of the living, He doesn’t have any physical descendants—Ah, but now He has spiritual sons and daughters that He will bring into glory because through his death and resurrection we can be born again of the spirit of God into the family of God. Tom, it’s amazing what Isaiah is laying out here which comes into real clear vision in the New Testament.
Tom:
“He shall see the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Dave:
There it is, bearing their iniquities again. The penalty we deserve.
Tom:
“Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.” Jesus paid the full penalty, didn’t He? He did it for us.
Dave:
Pretty clear, yes. “Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great and he shall divide the spoil with the strong.” I think that’s a little bit difficult for us to understand. He poured His soul unto death. He said no man takes my life from me. You couldn’t kill Him but He could lay His life down. He was numbered with transgressors—He was falsely accused, and yet He didn’t open his mouth. He bore the sin of many. There we have it again that He took the penalty for our sins and He made intercession for the transgressors. He is our advocate, Paul writes, pleading our case. His blood pleads our case and on that basis we are forgiven.
Tom:
Now Dave, the astounding thing about this passage, these verses in Isaiah 53, is that it ought to be clear to us that this is something that only God could do and He did and He did it perfectly and completely. And when we begin to fall into a kind of a legalistic idea, you know, works for righteousness, we are an offense to the very things that we have been reading here. I mean, not only is it a delusion and a lie but it’s a reproach to Christ who paid the full penalty for our sins. Something that only God, who became a man, could do.
Dave:
If you try to pay the penalty through church membership, gifts to charity, prayers, good deeds, you are denying that Christ paid the penalty and it is an insult to Jesus Christ and it won’t work—God won’t accept it.
Gary:
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. The Berean Call invites you to make your plans now for our 3rd annual TBC Conference coming up this November 14th through the 16th here in Bend, Oregon. This year’s event will be held at the beautiful new Riverhouse Convention Center. The theme for 2008 is, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny, the title of Dave Hunt’s soon to be released new book. A feature speaker will be Roger Oakland, author of the controversial expose on the Emerging Church, Faith Undone from Lighthouse Trails Publishing. TBC also welcomes Dr. Donald Chittick, an authority on the topic of origins and earth history with a special interest in the first 11 chapters of Genesis. Of course, TBC’s Tom McMahon and Dave Hunt will both be there debating there addressing the hotly debated Creation/Evolution issues. Tickets are just $75 for adults and children under 18 are free with accompanying adult. For more information go to our website at www.thebereancall.org, or call 1-800-937-6638, we hope to see you this November here in Bend at the 3rd Annual TBC Conference, “Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny.”
We offer a wide variety of teaching materials that will help you expand your knowledge of God’s Word, from books and tracts, to audio and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call us at our toll free order number 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #4508, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. And, if you would like to watch Dave and Tom, our weekly broadcast is available on DVD. Ask about a subscription when you contact us. You can also download both audio and video podcasts at our website. Get a pen or pencil ready; we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment. Next week, we’ll continue our re-visit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, Occult Invasion, and, “Is Holistic Medicine Holy?” In Religion in the News: “The Eating Human Meatloaf Syndrome.” We’ll take a look at that story and address the question: “Does God Love Us Because We’re So Loveable?” We hope you can join us. If you have questions or comments about this program, we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily radio ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for tuning in and invite you to join us again next week. Until then, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the scriptures daily. You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of the Berean Call. For more information about The Berean Call, contact us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number, 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. Join us again next week for Search the Scriptures Daily, featuring Dave Hunt and T.A. McMahon.
Gary:
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to answer in a future Contending For the Faith, stay tuned, we’ll have our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Now our final segment:
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
And we return once again to 2000 with Dave and Tom.
Tom:
As we mentioned last week, Isaiah 53 is an astounding picture of the Cross—An incredibly clear presentation of what Jesus did for us, isn’t it? Well, let’s continue with verse 5: “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” Dave, this is the Lord of the universe here.
Dave:
It’s telling us that God’s justice had to be satisfied. I remember having a debate recently with a Roman Catholic apologist and he was denying that. He was saying that God was appeased, that Christ didn’t pay the penalty. Well, it clearly says: He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement, that is, the judgment that we deserve was upon him and, with his stripes we are healed. By the way, it doesn’t mean physical healing; it means spiritual healing. Healed from sin and it’s penalty and we get that in 1 Peter 2:24, “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should henceforth live unto righteousness; by whose stripes we are healed.”
Tom:
And that doesn’t mean,—just going back to the debate that I was stunned to watch, because this apologist kept saying, No, Jesus did not pay the full penalty, this says, healed. This is God, who became a man to pay the penalty for our sins. Where would you come up with the idea that he only partially paid—
Dave:
Because, as you know, in Catholicism, if He paid the full penalty, then the Catholic Church is out of business. Because this is what the sacraments are about. This is what the Eucharist, or Mass is about. You never get saved but you get another infusion of grace; the graces and merits that Christ won on the Cross, so they would say, are being dispensed to us gradually and continuously through the Mass. But if Christ paid the full penalty, then why do you have to keep saying Mass after Mass, after Mass? In other words, when evangelicals meet to take the bread and the cup it is, as Christ said, in remembrance of him; remembrance of a finished work; whereas, for the Catholic it’s an on-going sacrifice. There is a sacrifice for the Mass and there is an anathema if you dare to say that this is not a propitiatory sacrifice that is offered for the sins of the living and the dead—anathema to you if you dare to say that this is a remembrance of something that was completed nineteen hundred years ago. He had to say that. But when Christ died upon the Cross; as he gave His spirit into His Father’s hands, He said: It is finished! There is no more sacrifice for sin, Hebrews 9 and 10, tell us; that Christ has appeared once in the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice himself. So, the work is finished. This is an incredible verse here; it’s telling me the chastisement of our peace—for there to be peace with God the penalty had to be paid. I had to be chastised—you know, you’re a father, you have five children—I’m sure you’ve had to discipline them from time to time—
Tom:
I still do—the young ones.
Dave:
Right. And when there is a violation of the family rules or of God’s will, causes a breach in your relationship and that isn’t healed; there is no peace until there has been some chastisement. The Bible says that God chastens every son, even after we are saved we are still being chastened, but there is a chastening for our sins paying the full penalty that we could never endure and so Christ endured that. That is what this verse is very clearly saying. Isaiah 53:4, “Surely He hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.” But the sorrows there are our sicknesses. So, he fulfilled that when he healed, Matthew 8:17, tells us, specifically. But the healing of our sin is through His paying the penalty upon the Cross.
Tom:
And that’s reconciliation which is what He accomplished for us. Continuing on with verse Isaiah 53, verse 6. “All we like sheep have gone astray: we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Dave, once again, the full penalty for sin is paid for by Christ.
Dave:
Sounds like it. Sheep are very stupid. I don’t know much about sheep. I’ve had some experiences with them down in New Zealand; they have more sheep than people there, by about ten times as many but they are very stupid. They have to have a shepherd. Some of these little critters can do a pretty good job of taking care of themselves. They peck their way out of a shell and immediately they can start pecking for food. I’ve seen geese on a little island in a pond and the minute they were hatched they could swim. But sheep have to have a shepherd; somebody that watches over them. And, they are stupid; they will wander away. And, we have wandered off of the path that God intended for us. Like sheep, we have each taken our own independent way. The Bible says that there is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the ends thereof are the ways of death. So, it’s not just a light thing but turning away from God is unrighteousness. Turning away from God is rebellion because we are not stupid as sheep are; we know what we are doing. And, man has deliberately tried to play God and has taken his own way in opposition to what God created him for, what God wanted for him. So, that’s iniquity and our iniquity was laid on Christ and again, it sounds like he paid the penalty for it.
Tom:
Isaiah 53:7, “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before the shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth.” There is a lot of controversy related to who killed Jesus. You have the Romans being blamed and the Jews being blamed and so on but Christ was our sacrifice, wasn’t He? I mean, it’s not to deny that we, all of us, crucified the Lord of glory, but still, it wasn’t against His will. He went as the meek and lowly Lamb of God to the slaughter.
Dave:
He opened not his mouth because He stood in our place and we had nothing to say. We had no defense; He took the penalty for us. He was oppressed; He was afflicted: that’s what men did to Him. We have to understand that the physical suffering of Christ on the Cross doesn’t save anybody. That would only add to our condemnation; that’s what we did. So, the oppression and the affliction were on the part of man who mocked him and jeered and nailed him to the Cross and did what they could to make it painful for Him. But, at the same time He was bruised—we come to that verse later—verse 10: It pleased the Lord Jehovah to bruise him. So, God put Him to grief and Peter could say on the day of Pentecost: Him being delivered by the determined counsel and fore-knowledge of God, you have taken by wicked hands and have crucified and slain. So, we have the two sides to this and Isaiah 53 lays it out very clearly.
Tom:
In Romans, chapter 5, verses 8 and 9, Paul writes, “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” We’re talking about our Lord and Savior here—what He did. This is really staggering.
Dave:
Amen.
Gary:
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. The Berean Call invites you to make your plans now for our 3rd annual TBC Conference coming up this November 14th through the 16th here in Bend, Oregon. This year’s event will be held at the beautiful new Riverhouse Convention Center. The theme for 2008 is, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny, the title of Dave Hunt’s soon to be released new book. A feature speaker will be Roger Oakland, author of the controversial expose on the Emerging Church, Faith Undone from Lighthouse Trails Publishing. TBC also welcomes Dr. Donald Chittick, an authority on the topic of origins and earth history with a special interest in the first 11 chapters of Genesis. Of course, TBC’s Tom McMahon and Dave Hunt will both be there debating there addressing the hotly debated Creation/Evolution issues. Tickets are just $75 for adults and children under 18 are free with accompanying adult. For more information go to our website at thebereancall.org, or call 1-800-937-6638, we hope to see you this November here in Bend at the 3rd Annual TBC Conference, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny.
We offer a wide variety of teaching materials that will help you expand your knowledge of God’s Word, from books and tracts, to audio and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call us at our toll free order number 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at http://www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #4408, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. Get a pen or pencil ready; we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment. Next week, we continue our re-visit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, Occult Invasion, and, “Prescriptions for Perdition.” In Religion in the News: “Chilin’ At Club Meditation.” We’ll take a look at that story and address the question: “Did God Create Evil?” We hope you can tune in. If you have questions or comments about this program, we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily Radio Ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for tuning in and invite you to join us again next week. In the meantime, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the Scriptures daily. For more information about The Berean Call, contact us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number, 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at http://www.thebereancall.org.
Gary:
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to respond to in a future Contending for the Faith, stay with us, we’ll provide our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Now, our final segment:
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
We return once again to the year 2000 with Dave and Tom.
Tom:
The topic that we have been looking at for a number of weeks, and we’re going to continue to look at because it is so foundational to the faith and that’s the Doctrine of Salvation. Last week we started to look at the book of Isaiah, particularly chapter 53, which is just an awesome passage. Not that you could pick and choose and say one verse is better than another, these are all inspired by God but this is particularly awesome to me because it really deals with the God of the universe becoming a man and dying for our sins. Last week I quoted it from Charles Wesley: “Amazing love, how could it be, that thou my God wouldst die for me.” That’s just tremendous and these passages in Isaiah 53, spell it out in a way that is overwhelming. Again, we’re talking about God here. Now, Dave, we left off with verse 3, He is despised and rejected of men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief and we hid, as it were, our faces from him. He was despised and we esteemed him not. Now, last week we talked about that there was no beauty in him. We went to the previous verse but—
Dave:
No beauty from our standpoint but this was God’s beloved Son in whom He was well pleased. The perfect man without a blemish and yet He’s despised and rejected of men. There was something about him that was so Godlike, because He is God. It’s staggering that God comes to His world that He made to the creatures that He has made and the God that made them is hated.
Tom:
You know, it’s funny but in terms of godly purity, that can be offensive to us. I think that’s what you were getting at last week. You know what I am saying?
Dave:
It’s condemning.
Tom:
Yes, that’s what I mean. If I’m a sinful person I’m not going to be attracted to something even physically that brings conviction.
Dave:
Yes. Christ is, but of course, that He walked this earth in a special way, He was the light of the world and His very demeanor, His very conduct, everything that He said and did must have been frightening really, to face perfection and it shows up every flaw in our character. Something about Christ that was just beyond anything that we could be and yet, something about Him—He’s the last Adam—that would hark back to what God wanted man to be that we all know that we ought to be. So, His very presence would condemn us.
Tom:
Now, the next part of the verse: A man of sorrows. Could this have something to do with just what we were talking about? We have Jesus, who is absolutely pure looking upon sin, seeing the results of what sin has done to a Creation that He said: It is good, it is good, it is good, it is very good. The other verse that I am thinking about, the shortest verse in the Bible: Jesus wept. Why did He weep? Why was he a man of sorrow? Because death had entered in and took the life of Lazarus.
Dave:
He had a sorrow that goes beyond any sorrow that we could have. Incomprehensible to us because He understands the awesomeness of sin and the eternal consequences of it. Furthermore, because He loves us. There is nothing so heartrending as being rejected by someone that you love and wanting to help this one that you love and everything that you try to do for them, they reject it. And here he is, he’s despised, he’s rejected. He wants to bring life. I am come, he said, that they might have life, that they might have it more abundantly. He said to the rabbis: You search the Scriptures for then you think you have eternal life. But they testify of me but you won’t come to me. So, His sorrow must have been just beyond our comprehension, although we can understand some of the elements of it. But it says, surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows. Amazing, that He would enter in to our humanity and that He would, as the man—He’s the second man the Bible says, the last Adam because this isn’t going to happen again and again, He’s the progenitor of a new race—but He’s the second man. There was never anyone who walked this earth, since Adam, who deserved to be called a man because Adam was created in the image of God and that image had been warped and defiled. Man was a fallen creature; he was dead where he was supposed to be alive. And now, here comes the second man and He saw the horror, the tragedy of warped, deformed, defiled individuals all around Him. He created Adam and here these are the descendants of Adam and He sees into their hearts, He sees into the, you could say, the cesspool of iniquity in the mind and in the soul, in the spirit of man, a man of whom God had to say that the imagination of his heart is only evil continually. And, I believe there is a greater sorrow about that. He saw the blight that Satan had brought upon this world and men following a liar. I mean, if you have a loved one who is following a liar who is deceiving them and leading them to destruction, you’ve got a lot of sorrow and I think that was the sorrow that He had. But He came to bear our griefs and to pay the penalty for sins, to bring us back to God.
Tom:
Now, this verse 4, as you quoted most of it, we’re starting to enter in here. We’re starting to see a picture of the Cross and this is particularly amazing, demonstrating this is God’s Book; this is God’s Word, because Isaiah writes this under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit some 750 years before the Cross—crucifixion was a form of capital punishment.
Dave:
Yes, we don’t have the Cross in as much detail as we have in Psalm 22, of course, They pierced my hands and my feet—
Tom:
Right and that’s one thousand years before—right.
Dave:
—but he was wounded, verse 5, for our transgressions—well, verse 4: We did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted. We thought what He was enduring was God’s judgment and when the rabbis nailed Him to the Cross, or had Him nailed to the Cross, they mocked Him and they were putting Him up there because He said He was God. Some people say, Well, Jesus never claimed to be God, indeed that’s why He was crucified. In John 10, they take up stones to stone him and Jesus said: I’ve done many good deeds, for which of these good deeds do you stone me? They said: For a good deed we stone thee not but because thou being a man maketh thyself out to be God. That was blasphemy. That was the ultimate blasphemy. So, they considered that God’s judgment was upon Him and indeed God’s judgment was upon Him because He took our place. He was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him and with His stripes we are healed. By the way, we need to come back next week or some week after that, this is not healing in the atonement. Healing of sickness is in verse 4, but this is the healing of sin.
Tom:
This is reconciliation.
Dave:
Right. Tom, maybe we could make a suggestion. People out there, type this out on a piece of paper, give it to your Jewish friend and ask them who they think it is talking about. I guarantee you that they would almost all say, that’s Jesus.
Tom:
You mean, when you type it out don’t put where you found it, just put the words and ask them who this may be referring to.
Dave:
Right. And they think it is written by some Christian and it’s about Jesus, undoubtedly. Then you can tell them, No, this is your great prophet, Isaiah and this is what he said about the Messiah because the servant is the Messiah, you can’t get away from it. Somebody is going to be wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities. Someone is going to die in our place. Verse 9, He made his grave with the wicked, with the rich, in his death. I’m jumping ahead, but this one is going to die in payment for the penalty of our sins and it pleased Jehovah the Lord, to bruise Him, it says. So, God’s judgment is coming upon Him, not just what men are doing to Him but God’s judgment is going to be upon Him in our place to pay the penalty for our sins so that we could be forgiven. What a picture we have of the Cross, of Christ and of our redemption and I don’t think you can escape it.
Tom:
Dave, I just want to add one thing to that. Of all the religions, of all the gods who are being presented as being true gods, is there any who are dying for those who are to worship them?
Dave:
Not one, not one, only Jesus himself.
Gary:
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. The Berean Call invites you to make your plans now for our 3rd annual TBC Conference coming up this November 14th through the 16th here in Bend, Oregon. This year’s event will be held at the beautiful new Riverhouse Convention Center. The theme for 2008 is, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny, the title of Dave Hunt’s soon to be released new book. A feature speaker will be Roger Oakland, author of the controversial expose on the Emerging Church, Faith Undone from Lighthouse Trails Publishing. TBC also welcomes Dr. Donald Chittick, an authority on the topic of origins and earth history with a special interest in the first 11 chapters of Genesis. Of course, TBC’s Tom McMahon and Dave Hunt will both be there debating there addressing the hotly debated Creation/Evolution issues. Tickets are just $75 for adults and children under 18 are free with accompanying adult. For more information go to our website at thebereancall.org, or call 1-800-937-6638, we hope to see you this November here in Bend at the 3rd Annual TBC Conference, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny.
We offer a wide variety of teaching materials that will help you expand your knowledge of God’s Word, from books and tracts, to audio and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call us at our toll free order number 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at http://www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #4308, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. Get a pen or pencil ready; we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment. Next week, we’ll continue our re-visit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, Occult Invasion, and, “What’s Wrong with Spirit Communication?” In Religion in the News: “Same Spirit Guide, Same Channeler.” We’ll take a look at that story and address the question: “Why Not Yoga at the Y?” We hope you can join us. If you have questions or comments about this program, we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily Radio Ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for tuning in and invite you to join us again next week. Until then, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the Scriptures daily. For more information about The Berean Call, contact us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number, 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at http://www.thebereancall.org.
Gary:
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to address in a future Contending for the Faith, stay tuned, we’ll have our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Now our final segment:
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
We return once again to 2000, with Dave and Tom:
In this segment called Understanding the Scriptures, we’ve been looking at the Doctrine of Salvation, the foundational doctrine to what we are all about as Christians. And I think it has been really informative, just listening to you, Dave, about some of these things, it’s just really blessed me, and I hope our listeners are blessed as well. What I’d like to talk about today really has to do with the death of Christ, what that means, and maybe for this program and the next program I’d like to go over Isaiah 53, the entire chapter. The passage here just underscores what Christ did, I mean, we’re talking about the Son of God here. You know, as Charles Wesley wrote, “Amazing love, how can it be, that thou, my God, wouldst die for me.” And in this passage, these passages it’s just staggering. Dave, I’m just going to take it verse by verse, and maybe we can comment on it. It begins, “Who hath believed our report? And to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant.” Dave, who is the Scripture talking about?
Dave:
Well, it’s talking about the servant from verse 13 in the previous chapter. Tom, the Bible is so fantastic! Who hath believed our report? Yeah, who has? And of course the report is all about Jesus, as Paul said in Romans chapter 1, this is the gospel of God that He promised before by His prophets in the Holy Scriptures, concerning His Son Jesus. So, this is who He is talking about. Who has believed that, and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? Now we’re talking about God’s power and majesty. People want some kind of a physical miracle, a healing or whatever. The greatest miracle is to forgive sins, to transform the sinner into a saint. And so, to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed? Well, where is His strength, and where does this salvation come from? Well, He comes in a person. He shall grow up before Him, that is, God the Father, the Son grows up before the Father and so you hear the voice at the baptism of Jesus, the voice from heaven, this is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased. As a root out of a dry ground. Israel was dry, Israel was dead, God had not spoken to them. The last thing God had said to Israel was through Malachi the prophet.
Tom:
Right, some 400 years.
Dave:
Yeah, God said, you despise my name, you pollute my altar, and you offer unacceptable sacrifices. Israel had turned so far away from God; they were in apostasy, and suddenly out of this dry ground comes this One. This next thing is so often misunderstood, I think, He hath no form nor comeliness, and when we shall see Him there is no beauty that we should desire Him. Now it doesn’t mean that Jesus was ugly. Jesus, in fact, was the handsomest man that ever lived. He was perfect, He had to be perfection, He’s the perfect man, it’s sin that brings a blight and blemish upon mankind. He’s the last Adam, He’s like Adam, created fresh in the virgin’s womb by the hand of God as Adam was created in the garden. So how do we understand this? If we would just turn real fast to—
Tom:
And I hope people who have their Bibles at home, especially for this segment of the program; I hope they will search the Scriptures with us.
Dave:
1 Samuel 16, David is a wonderful type of Christ, he’s a king. In this chapter he’s despised by his brothers. He is so despised even by his father, apparently, that he gives him the most menial tasks, taking care of the sheep out there, nobody else wants to do it, and yet David is so humble, he is willing to do it, and he is considered to be of so worthless that when Samuel comes to Bethlehem and he tells Jesse, I want your sons to come, we’re going to have a feast, bring all your sons, Jesse doesn’t even bring David, because God has told Samuel that one of Jesse’s sons is to be the king. And he has his sons pass before him, and they are very handsome, strong guys, but each one, God says to the prophet Samuel, This is not the one! And they have all passed before him, seven of them, and Samuel is perplexed, he’s confused, none of them God, but you sent me here. So then he says, is it possible you have another son? Oh yeah, he’s out there with the sheep, bring him. Okay, so he anoints him, God says, this is the one. Now what I find so interesting is verse 18. Now, you know the story, Saul, he’s got problems, and they want somebody that can play a harp and calm his spirit, and so forth, so they are looking in Israel to find one. Now here is one man, this is a picture of the insight of the Holy Spirit, seeing not as the flesh sees, but as God sees. “Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, (he is the greatest harpist in Israel) and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war” (but you get your Sunday school material, you’ve got little skinny teenager scrawny David). No, Saul gives him his armor; it says that Saul was head and shoulders above Israel. Well then, David must have been as tall as he was, and every bit as strong as Saul, because it wasn’t his armor, David doesn’t say, His armor doesn’t fit me, and Saul wouldn’t have given it to him if it didn’t fit. No, it fits, but he’s never used this kind of stuff, he hasn’t proved it, and he doesn’t trust in it, he trusts in God! But anyway, “—he’s a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person (he’s handsome) and the Lord is with him.” Now, you couldn’t say more about a person than that, and yet David is despised. See, so I think that’s how we understand what it says about Jesus. He was not voted most likely to succeed in the graduating class there in Nazareth because He was despised by people. This is the Creator, he’s manifesting the very character of God, the love, the patience, the holiness, the qualities of God himself and man who is separated from God hates him, rebels against him. My understanding, it’s hard to understand, in fact, Tom, as you know, the battle breaks out with the Philistines, Saul sends David back! This is the greatest warrior in Israel, this is the guy who can conquer Goliath and he’s not afraid of him, everybody else is, Saul sends him back because he doesn’t think the guy is capable of being his armor bearer! Tom, there is a blindness to the things of God, a blindness to the truth, a blindness to the real beauty of a godly character that blinds people to everything else. And I think that’s the only way we can understand this verse. There is no beauty that “we” should desire Him, we creatures separated from God, we don’t desire Him, but He’s desirable to God, and He is the perfect man.
Tom:
Dave, I’m excited about this opportunity to go through Isaiah, and I hope our listeners invite their friends to sit in and listen and write to us, let us know your thoughts about these things. But it’s a wonderful opportunity to go through God’s Word, we’re going to do this, we’re going to stay with Chapter 53, for the next week or two, and I think they will be blessed, I know they will be blessed.
Gary:
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. The Berean Call invites you to make your plans now for our 3rd annual TBC Conference coming up this November 14th through the 116th, here in Bend Oregon. This year’s event will be held at the beautiful new Riverhouse Convention Center. The theme for 2008 is Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny, the title of Dave Hunt’s soon to be released new book. Our feature speaker will be Roger Oakland, author of the controversial expose on the Emerging Church, Faith Undone, from Lighthouse Trails Publishing. TBC also welcomes Dr. Donald Chittick, an authority on the topic of origins and earth history, with a special interest in the first 11 Chapter of Genesis. Of course, TBC’s Tom McMahon and Dave Hunt will both be there addressing the hotly debated Creation/Evolution issues. Tickets are just $75 for adults, and children under 18 are free with accompanying adult. For more information go to our website at thebereancall.org, or call 1-800-937-6638. We hope to see you this November here in Bend at the 3rd Annual TBC Conference, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny. We offer a wide variety of teaching materials that will help you expand your knowledge of God’s Word from books and tracts to audio and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call us at our toll free order number 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk ask for Program #4208, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. And if you would like to watch Dave and Tom, our weekly broadcast is available on DVD; ask about a subscription when you contact us. You can also download both audio and video podcast at our website. Get a pen or pencil ready; we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment.
Next week we will continue our revisit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, Occult Invasion, and, what’s wrong with spirit communication? In Religion in the News: “Shamanism for Old Shep,” we’ll take a look at that story and address the question: “Was Jesus a Teenage Guru?” We hope you can tune in. If you have questions and comments about this program we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily radio ministry if made possible by God’s grace, your prayers and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael and for Dave, Tom, and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for joining us, and invite you to tune in again next week. In the meantime, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the Scriptures daily. You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. For more information about The Berean Call, contact us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number, 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. Join us again next week for Search the Scriptures Daily, featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon.
Gary:
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to address in a future Contending for the Faith, stay with us, we’ll have our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Now, our final segment:
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
And now, we return once again to 2000, with Dave and Tom.
Tom:
In our ongoing discussion in this segment called, Understanding the Scriptures, we have been looking at the doctrine of salvation. One of the things that I want to talk about today, or that we might discuss, is the plan of salvation. Some people say, well, you just have to give your heart to Jesus—just have to turn your life over to Him—you have to seek Him. And, certainly there is some truth to that but it’s not exactly what we are to do, is it? Isn’t it God’s plan of salvation, doesn’t it have content. Isn’t there a point where we, in fact, are saved?
Dave:
Well, Paul tells us in Romans 1:16, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. That I am supposed to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. He tells us what the gospel is in 1 Corinthians 15, how that Christ died for your sins according to the Scriptures—if it wasn’t in fulfillment of the Scriptures it wouldn’t be right—he was buried and he rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. When he was asked by the Philippian jailer, what must I do to be saved? He simply said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Now, a person in believing on Christ, they are trusting themselves to him for eternity and they may have a sense of submitting to Him, turning their life over to Him because they are putting themselves in His hands for eternity. But the Bible doesn’t actually use that language. The Bible says that the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. If I don’t have a sense that I have violated God’s laws, what do I need a savior for? I think repentance definitely involves some recognition that I am a sinner and that because I am a sinner, as we have talked about, I am under judgment, and I am under God’s wrath. It’s not that I’m going to turn over a new leaf and be a better person that’s going to save me. You know, Tom, maybe we could give an example, a specific example. I’ve watched many, many hours of video tapes of Steve Hill preaching at the Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola, Florida where they are supposedly having a great revival. I have seen hundreds and hundreds of people go forward—I have never heard the gospel yet. The closest I have ever seen him come to the gospel was when he got everyone very emotional about the physical sufferings of Christ on the cross. Now the physical sufferings of Christ on the cross won’t save us, as we have tried to explain a number of times. It would only add to our condemnation because that’s what we did. As Peter said, you have taken the Lord of life and glory and by wicked hands you have crucified Him, so that would only condemn us. Our salvation comes because Christ became the sacrifice for our sins and it says in Isaiah 53, it pleased Yahweh, Jehovah, it pleased God to bruise Him. Thou hast put Him to grief and thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin. That’s where salvation comes from but in this message Steve Hill never explained that and he got everybody teary-eyed, some of them weeping, and we should over the physical sufferings of Christ. And then he said, after what He’s done for you, what will you do for Him? Will you give yourself to Him? That’s not the gospel of Jesus Christ. And people stream forward, probably several hundred of them, to give themselves to Christ, sometimes we hear, make a decision for Christ. I don’t want to try to split hairs, on the other hand, when the Bible says that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation and that I must believe the gospel to be saved, then I think I should be very careful that I preach the gospel. I’m not saying that God can’t meet a person, you know, and he’s very gracious and when I come to Christ I don’t have a perfect understanding necessarily of exactly what all of this means and the Lord reaches out, you know, and He embraces me in His love and I open my heart to Him but I think that we should be very careful that we articulate the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. And Paul condemns false gospels and there are a lot of false gospels out there, so I think that we should be Biblical in our presentation of the gospel.
Tom:
For our listeners, let’s articulate the gospel. Somebody out there who is listening to this says, well I can understand what they are saying but what am I to say, what am I to do?
Dave:
You can’t do anything to save yourself—
Tom:
Recognize that, number one.
Dave:
Right. We have quoted before: “To him that worketh not but believeth on him who justifieth the ungodly…” So, if you think you are going to make yourself good enough to be worthy of heaven or to be worthy of God’s forgiveness, forget it. Because Christ came to save sinners. So if you are not a sinner you can’t get saved. And he justifies the ungodly so if you are not ungodly you can’t be justified. But I have to recognize that I have violated God’s laws, that I am under His judgment and Paul, in Romans chapter 3, raises the question: How can God be just and yet justify the sinner? He can’t just look the other way. The penalty had to be paid and God—you know, it’s not like reincarnation or karma, that’s impersonal and has no sympathy—you pick somebody up out of the gutter of Calcutta and put them in a fresh bed, you know, you’ve interfered with their karma, they are going to have to come back to that very spot to work out their karma—no, the God of the Bible loves us so much that He came down to where we are. He became a man through the virgin birth, the Son of God Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and He took the judgment, the punishment that we deserve because He’s infinite, because He’s God, He could endure that on the Cross and because He paid the penalty we can be forgiven on a righteous basis. God can forgive the sinner because the penalty has been paid. But you have to accept that payment.
Tom:
That’s what I want to ask you. You see, somebody listening to this says, I see, I understand—maybe for the first time they see clearly what the gospel is—now, what do they do?
Dave:
They believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Tom:
They put their trust in Him.
Dave:
They believe that they are sinners that Christ did, indeed, pay the penalty for their sins and that he offers them pardon as a free gift. When you believe that you accept this gift that he offers and you are forgiven. You have eternal life as a free gift. The wages of sin is death. The Bible says the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. And Jesus, himself, said, He that believeth on the Son has (John 3:36) everlasting life. You’re not hoping for it, you’ve got it and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life, (John 5:24) he says. Then he says that he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abideth on him. Abideth on him because it’s already on him and the only way you can escape the wrath of God is to accept the salvation that He offers. You know, on the one hand it’s very simple; on the other hand it’s very humiliating. You mean I can’t do something good? I can’t merit this? Tom, it’s a gift. If I offer you a gift for your birthday, lets say, and you insist on paying me for it, that’s an insult. You’ve robbed me of the pleasure of giving you a gift. Furthermore, you have put a value on the gift which, you know, we always take the tag off. But in God’s case, lets say that I am offering you a gift that’s worth a million dollars, well let’s say a billion dollars, and you want to give me ten bucks for it. That’s an insult. And the gift of eternal life was purchased at a price that we couldn’t pay— infinite. For a human being to refuse to accept this as a gift and to say, Well, I’m going to go to church—I’ll pray or I’ll give to charity— and that you are going to buy God’s gift you are robbing him of the joy of giving you a gift, you are devaluing it down to the level of your own efforts, it’s an insult to God and, in fact, you are rejecting. If I give you a gift and you insist on paying it you are rejecting the gift, right?
Tom:
Right.
Dave:
Now, where does the good works come from? After I am saved! I am so grateful—
Tom:
Dave, before you get into that part—it’s not only foolish and irrational, that aspect of it, but there’s another aspect. You quoted the Scripture: For the wages of sin is death. That’s the penalty. Death is the penalty. The only thing that we can do is really, I mean you say well listen, Jesus did that but I am going to do is do this…. The only thing that I can do is be separated from God forever because that’s the payment. We can’t pay it partially—we have to pay it completely.
Dave:
And we can’t.
Tom:
Well, we can, in one sense. That is, be separated from God forever but that’s not really paying for it. But that’s the consequences of that sin, so, for anybody to say, yes, there is something that I have to do. They have to recognize the fact that the only thing that they can do on their own is be separated from God forever or they can turn to Christ, who is the only one who can pay the penalty for us.
Dave:
It’s a gift, Tom. It’s so wonderful. It’s a gift of his grace, why not receive it? You have to be very stubborn to insist, I’m going to do it my way. Well then, you are lost forever. Jesus paid the penalty, he died for your sins, why not be grateful to him and thank him and open your heart and just say, Lord Jesus, thank you for dying for me. I believe in you, I receive you as my savior. And the Word of God says, you have passed from death to life—you have eternal life—you will never perish and no one can take it away from you.
Gary:
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. The Berean Call invites you to make your plans now for our 3rd annual TBC Conference coming up this November 14th through the 16th here in Bend, Oregon. This year’s event will be held at the beautiful new Riverhouse Convention Center. The theme for 2008 is, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny, the title of Dave Hunt’s soon to be released new book. A feature speaker will be Roger Oakland, author of the controversial expose on the Emerging Church, Faith Undone from Lighthouse Trails Publishing. TBC also welcomes Dr. Donald Chittick, an authority on the topic of origins and earth history with a special interest in the first 11 chapters of Genesis. Of course, TBC’s Tom McMahon and Dave Hunt will both be there debating there addressing the hotly debated Creation/Evolution issues. Tickets are just $75 for adults and children under 18 are free with accompanying adult. For more information go to our website at thebereancall.org, or call 1-800-937-6638, we hope to see you this November here in Bend at the 3rd Annual TBC Conference, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny.
We offer a wide variety of teaching materials that will help you expand your knowledge of God’s Word, from books and tracts, to audio and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call us at our toll free order number 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at http://www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #4108, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. Get a pen or pencil ready; we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment.
Next week, we’ll continue our re-visit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, Occult Invasion, and, “What is the Difference between Natural and Supernatural?” In Religion in the News: “Israel’s Go Home Evangelical’s Policy.” We’ll take a look at that story and address the question: “Should Christians Perform Magic?” We hope you can join us. If you have questions or comments about this program, we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily radio ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for tuning in and invite you to join us again next week. In the meantime, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the scriptures daily. For more information about The Berean Call, contact us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number, 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at http://www.thebereancall.org.
You are listening to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Still ahead, Dave and Tom continue their weekly in-depth study of the doctrine of salvation, please stay with us. We return now to our program series from 2000.
CONTENDING FOR THE FAITH
In this regular feature, Dave and Tom respond to questions from listeners and readers of The Berean Call. Here’s this week’s question: What scripture do you use to support the idea that the soul is a separate entity from the body? Ecclesiastes 9:5, very clearly tells us that the dead know not anything. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, says that the dead in Christ are asleep.
Tom:
Dave, we don’t know whether this individual who wrote to us about this, whether this is something he believes, or he is wrestling with somebody, perhaps an occult that believes in annihilation after death, and so on, but it’s a question that we can come to grips with. First of all, Ecclesiastes 9:5, does that mean the dead know nothing? Are we talking about someone who dies and ceases to exist?
Dave:
Well, let me deal first with the difference between soul and spirit, since that was what they asked first.
Tom:
Sure.
Dave:
The Bible does clearly distinguish. Hebrews 4:12 says, “For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit—” Sounds like they are different. 1 Thessalonians 5:23, you know, I don’t remember the references but I remember what it says. Paul said, I pray God that your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless until the day of Jesus Christ. So, He’s distinguishing between the spirit, soul and body. We are tri-part beings, like the triune God who created us. So there is no question that the Bible distinguishes between the body, soul and spirit. Now, as far as the dead knowing nothing, the dead bodies don’t know anything. Actually, Solomon is talking about “under the sun” that’s the key phrase.
Tom:
Dave:
“Under the sun, under the sun, under the sun” well, you’re not under the sun anymore, you have no more part on this earth, you have left—a good argument against reincarnation because you don’t come back again, you’re finished with this earth. But as far as the soul and the spirit sleeping and being unconscious, it doesn’t sound like that when Jesus talks about the rich man in hell—he lift up his eyes being in torment, it says. And he’s communing with Abraham, Abraham is there and Lazarus, the beggar. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, Today you will be with Me in paradise. It doesn’t sound like they’re sleeping. It says that Jesus preached to the spirits that were in prison who before were—this is 1 Peter Chapter 3—preached to the spirits who were in prison, who before in the days of Noah had been disobedient. Doesn’t sound to me like they are sleeping. Paul, in Philippians Chapter 1, he said, I am in a strait betwixt two—that means he’s on the horns of a dilemma here—having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better. He’s got a desire to be with Christ, I mean, what’s the point of sleeping next to Christ, is Christ asleep up there? Is Paul going to be asleep?
Tom:
2 Corinthians 5:8, presents the same problem: “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Well, we weren’t talking about an extended presence or an extended time of thoughtlessness or ceasing to exist.
Dave:
So surely Paul didn’t want to just go to sleep, he wants to be with Christ, absent from the body, present with the Lord, I mean, present with the Lord doesn’t mean anything if you’re all unconscious. So this is not a biblical teaching at all.
Tom:
You know, and to me it really flies against, I mean it’s worse than that, it denies the very love relationship that began when we were born again in Christ. How can I look forward to a time in which I will cease to know Christ, cease to know anything? He said, I’ll never leave you nor forsake you, He’s our love, this just does great damage to that, plus, you know, it’s wrong.
Dave:
Well, then of course it would give courage to the unsaved to believe that they would be annihilated. So, if I don’t accept Christ, I can live any kind of life I want, Hitler is no worse off now than somebody who lived like a saint. Because he has been annihilated, there’s no consciousness any more. Then what are we going to do with the fact that Revelation Chapter 20 says, “I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heavens fled away?? And the books are open and the dead are standing before, and the dead are judged out of those things in the Book. Well, it sounds to me like dead people can stand before God in judgment. So, everything that I read in the Word of God, Jesus warned people about being cast into hell, He warned them to flee from his at all costs. What does it mean—I wouldn’t flee from it if it just means annihilation. I can’t think, I can’t feel, I’m just finished. The Bible simple does not teach that, and everything the Bible says is to the contrary.
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to address in a future Contending for the Faith, stay tuned, we’ll have our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We turn now to our final segment.
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
We return once again to 2000, with Dave and Tom:
Tom:
Dave, in our segment of Understanding the Scriptures, trying to help our listeners, as well as ourselves, I mean, we learn from this as well. But trying to understand the scriptures better the topic has been, The Gospel of Salvation, which is central to our whole lives as Christians. But according to the scriptures, man is under condemnation for sin, and I want to go over some verses here. Romans 5:12, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.” Now Romans 8:1 tells us, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” And John 3:18 says, “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” What I want to address here is condemnation, we are really cut off from God if we don’t believe. So, for the lost condemnation is what they have to look forward to.
Dave:
Well, the Bible says we are condemned already. Psalm 1 says the ungodly will not stand in judgment. And what it means, of course, doesn’t mean that their works won’t be judged. We’ve quoted Revelation 20, they will be judged out of the Books that have been written according to their works. bit what it says is, they are not going to be judged as to whether they are saved or lost. They are condemned already. So, we have sinned, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, the wages of sin is death, the scripture says, that God’s judgment is upon all mankind. So it’s not a question of, am I going to be condemned or not, I am condemned already the Scripture says.
Tom:
It involves God’s wrath as well, doesn’t it? Well, Ephesians 5:6, Let no one be deceived. The reason I want to quote these scriptures is because people listening to a program like this, who have just tuned in, first of all they would say, Well, that’s just their opinion. And what they are laying on is a trip here, a guilt trip, or whatever. We are just presenting what God’s Word says, and it’s either true or it’s not true, and our listeners are going to have to wrestle with that. But this is what God’s Word presents, it says, “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” Matthew 25:41, “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matthew 25:46, “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” One more Scripture on this one, 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9, “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power.” Now these are very sobering Scriptures that we don’t hear a lot.
Dave:
Yeah, Tom, I didn’t quote thoroughly John 3:18, “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” In other words, because we have sinned we have rebelled against God, we’ve broken his laws, there are consequences. You can’t even play a game, football, basketball or whatever it is, tiddlywinks I guess, you can’t even play anything unless you have rules, and when you break the rules there are consequences. And God created this universe, and I think it’s only reasonable that He should decide the rules. Sin is basically rebellion against God refusing to go by God’s rules. It’s robbing God of the purpose that He had in creating the human being, and I’m tearing out of God’s hands my life that He has given me. Maybe saying it just happened by chance, you know, it’s an evolutionary process and I’m in charge and I’m going to live it the way I please. God cannot tolerate that in His universe. Now He is very gracious and patient and merciful, but He says finally it’s going to come down to this. He’s going to have to destroy the whole universe that He made because sin has entered in and He’s going to create a new universe, (this is what the Bible says), wherein dwelleth righteousness, and only those who are willing to be what He wants them to be, and have been reconciled to God through faith in the penalty that Christ paid on the cross for our sins. Those are the only ones who will be in that new universe. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.
Tom:
That’s not only not unreasonable, He gives all provision for us—I mean, if somebody was listening to what you had to say, Oh well, I have to do this, that and this. No, it’s a gift God has provided, He has provided the sacrifice, the payment for the penalty, and He offers that to us.
Dave:
You would have to be pretty stubborn to refuse to accept the pardon God offers, I mean, God is so gracious, so merciful. But look, it’s like this, Tom, let’s say that I’m a judge, and you’re my son, and you stand before me in court. And the jury has weighed the evidence, they found you guilty of murder. But somebody sitting in the back of the courtroom says, Yeah, but he’s not going to condemn his son, I mean, he loves his son. No, I have to! Otherwise it’s corruption.
Tom:
Right, you’re not a just judge.
Dave:
That’s right, and God’s holy character, his righteousness compels him to stand behind His Word. I’ve seen so many families, as a grandpa, you know, now you’re tempted to be like this where a little girl or a little boy does something they shouldn’t and mommy says, You do that again, or daddy says, You’re going to get it, and then they just defy. I’ve seen them just defy their parents and do the same thing again and there’s no consequences! So, a lot of parents are teaching their children that they can run the show. Some of these little 2-year-olds might just as well have an emperor’s crown on their heads, you know. The family is afraid to cross them, they’ll throw a tantrum. So we are teaching them that the parent’s word doesn’t mean anything, you can violate it without any consequences, I mean, that brings total chaos in a family! It brings chaos on this earth because man has rebelled against God. And God is not going to tolerate this, He’s patient, He’s not willing that any should perish, He’s calling men to repentance. But the times comes when God says, Look, I say what I mean and I mean what I say, and if I were not that kind of a God the whole universe would be chaotic. And now He offers, as you said, He offers pardon on a righteous basis. It’s not just a bookkeeping entry that He makes, He just turns his head the other way, or just says, Okay, I forgive you. No, God himself became a man to the virgin birth and paid the penalty that His own infinite justice required. It wasn’t just what men did to Him on the cross, that would only add to our condemnation, but He took our place, He paid the penalty, became the sin sacrifice, the scripture says. On that basis He can forgive us and pardon us and give us eternal life for all who will accept what Jesus has done in their place. But if they will not do that, then they are stubborn rebels refusing to let God be God in His universe. And to think that God would tolerate that, that’s impossible!
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. The Berean Call invites you to make your plans now for our 3rd annual TBC Conference coming up this November 14th through the 16th here in Bend, Oregon. This year’s event will be held at the beautiful new Riverhouse Convention Center. The theme for 2008 is, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny, the title of Dave Hunt’s soon to be released new book. A feature speaker will be Roger Oakland, author of the controversial expose on the Emerging Church, Faith Undone from Lighthouse Trail Publishing. TBC also welcomes Dr. Donald Chittick, an authority on the topic of origins and earth history with a special interest in the first 11 chapters of Genesis. Of course, TBC’s Tom McMahon and Dave Hunt will both be there debating there addressing the hotly debated creation/evolution issues. Tickets are just $75 for adults and children under 18 are free with accompanying adult. For more information go to our website at www.thebereancall.org, or call 1-800-937-6638, we hope to see you this November here in Bend at the 3rd Annual TBC Conference, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny. And now, to tell you more about our ministry here’s TBC Executive Director Tom McMahon: The name, The Berean Call, is taken from the Book of Acts, Chapter 17, verses 10 and 11, where we find the apostle Paul entering the synagogue in the Greek City of Berea after he had just come from Thessalonica. To these Bereans he preached that Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah sent from God. They were commended for being noble, or fair minded, not only for their willingness to hear what Paul had to say about the matter, but more specifically, because they searched the scriptures daily to find out whether or not what the apostle was saying was found in God’s Word. That’s what we hope to encourage through this ministry. Our mission is to alert believers in Christ to unbiblical teachings and practices impacting the church. We want to exhort believers to give great heed to biblical discernment and truth regarding what they are accepting as spiritual. We hope to supply those who profess to be biblical Christians with information and material that will encourage the love of God’s truth. Hopefully, we can help believers in Christ to action in obedience to the scriptural command to earnestly contend for the faith in Jude 3. And finally, our prayer is that we can be used of God to stimulate Christians to look to the Bible alone as their rule of faith, authority and practice in living lives pleasing to our Lord and Savior.
Gary:
We offer a wide variety of teaching materials that will help you expand your knowledge of God’s Word, from books and tracts and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials, or to get a copy of today’s broadcast, write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call us at our toll free order number 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk, ask for Program #4008, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. Get a pen or pencil ready, we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment.
Next week, we’ll continue our re-visit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, Occult Invasion, and, Should Christians use divination? In Religion in the News, The one size fits all college chapel, we’ll take a look at that story and address the question: Who were the nephelum? We hope you can tune in. If you have questions or comments about this program, we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily radio ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for joining us and invite you to tune in again next week. In the meantime, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the Scriptures daily. For more information about The Berean Call, contact us at PO Box 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number, 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org.
If you have a question for Dave and Tom to address in a future Contending for the Faith, stay with us, we’ll provide our contact information at the end of the program. You are listening to a special presentation of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. Now our final segment:
UNDERSTANDING THE SCRIPTURES
We return once again to the year 2000, with Dave and Tom.
Tom:
Continuing in this section, Understanding the Scriptures, the topic is, The Gospel of Salvation. We’re really trying to, I mean, we’re taking a while, but we’re really trying to zero in on exactly what the gospel is. Dave, last week we talked about sin. We went back to the Garden of Eden and we recounted how sin entered in, and our Lord said: The day you eat of it you shall surely die. That’s what I want to talk about this week. What does the death penalty mean? It’s a process of physical death, we mentioned that, but it also involved the wrath and punishment of God, doesn’t it, and separation from God forever?
Dave:
Well, man was separated first of all from the Garden, from God’s presence in the Garden, and from the Garden, and then at death he was separated from his body, separated from his friends, from this world, and if that continued he would be separated from God’s universe forever.
Tom:
Right. Romans 5:12, “Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.”
Dave:
Yeah, well, it says physical death, we experience it, and there’s really no explanation, I mean there is no scientific explanation why we should die, but we start to die the minute we are born, and we’re going downhill just like the whole universe. In fact, the Bible says, The whole universe groans, the creation groans, it’s all under the judgment of God now. And that means we are cut off from God.
Tom:
Don’t you think it’s important that we get a better understanding of what sin—we have seen what sin has produced? But sometimes we forget about that in terms of the character of God. I mentioned before, sin brings about God’s wrath, and His punishment. Sometimes we don’t want to face up to that, but it’s a fact. And Jesus, I mean, I don’t want to get ahead of ourselves here, but Jesus took the wrath of God, didn’t He?
Dave:
Exactly.
Tom:
Matthew 25:41, 46: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:…And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” Again, a consequence of sin that is rarely preached today; rarely faced today.
Dave:
The everlasting life, of course, just thinking of it logically, it will have to be in a new universe. So God is going to do away with this entire universe, the Bible says, it will all be destroyed by fire, one big nuclear holocaust. So, only those who have been made new creatures in Christ through believing the gospel will be allowed to live in God’s new universe. So what separation from God means, I think it’s probably horrible beyond our comprehension, the Bible likens it to thirst. Remember the rich man in hell that says, He lift up his eyes being in torment and he asks Abraham if he wouldn’t send Lazarus just to dip his finger in water, put one drop of water on his tongue, I’m tormented in this flame. I believe that his torment was really the remorse for the life that he had lived and realizing that he was lost, realizing that he could have obeyed God. He could have done what was right. He could have believed, you know, he didn’t have to be there because obviously there was another place to go, and Lazarus was in this other place. I can’t imagine what horror would envelope the soul to the hopelessness to realize this is it forever. And when you think of that, some people would say, Well, I can’t believe that a just God would damn people to hell forever. I don’t think God damns anybody to hell, He says He’s not willing that any should perish. We send ourselves there by rejecting the pardon, the salvation that He has provided. But the consequences are eternal for, I think, a number of logical reasons. First of all, we have a physical body and physical things don’t last, but our spirit and soul are not physical and you can’t destroy them, they go on forever, even in heaven or in hell. Man, he’s an eternal being, and if he’s not eternally in heaven, he is eternally in hell. And then you think, well, but they would surely believe if everyone, you know, everybody in hell now, now they know the truth, now they would believe. So then why can’t the gospel be presented to them and they would all believe? It’s a horrible thought, but I don’t think they would believe. Their chance is gone, because their only reason for believing now is to want to get out of hell. They that have such an overpowering desire to leave this horrible place that they could not embrace Christ out of love, honoring God for who He is, submitting to His will and to His justice. They passed the line where they could ever make a rational choice to receive Christ as their Savior. So there are a number of reasons for eternal punishment, it’s biblical but you can think of it logically as well.
Tom:
Well, you know, that’s a sobering thought, I mean, those of us who believe that we’re saved. Do we love God? Do we really want to be with Him forever? I know there are days when, you know, the flesh takes over, but really, that has to be the heart, doesn’t it? Not just for what Christ did for us, but because of who He is.
Dave:
There must be some, I mean, the 1st Commandment is, Love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, strength and so forth. Unless that love is somehow created in me by God himself, who works in me to will and to do His good pleasure, unless I’ve been made a new person, born again in the Spirit of God, into the family of God, and now the love of God dwells in me, and I really love Him and want to respond to Him. Without that I wouldn’t really want to be in heaven. And I can’t really respond to God if I’m just trying to escape hell. I don’t think that’s really responding to the gospel. But there should be some gratitude in my heart. As Charles Wesley said, “…That thou, my God, should die for me…,” that He would love me so much that He would pay the penalty as His justice demanded. See, God is a personal being, a personal God, not an impersonal force, and this isn’t just some cosmic type of energy out there, this is personal love. Well, more personal and intimate and passionate than any love that human beings have for one another. To think that Christ loved me that way, surely that would break my heart, that would win my heart. And so the hymn writer said: “What debt of love we owe thee, love that we can ne’er express. Since we by the Spirit know thee Christ the Lord our righteousness.” Another hymn says “You have bound me by the chains of love to yourself.” So, this final analysis, it’s going to be a wonderful love, experience, and eternal honeymoon. That’s why you have the analogy of the bride and the groom. We are the bride of Christ and He is the bridegroom.
Tom:
I mean, this is overwhelming as we come to understand it better and better, and when I say, overwhelming, I mean, Yes, there is a death penalty. There are the consequences of sin, but God did, I mean, He paid for all of it, and He offers salvation to us, again, as we mentioned before, a free gift.
Dave:
Amen.
Tom:
So, those who would try to undermine these elements the physical death involved, the wrath and punishment of God, separation from Him forever, those are the penalties, but He offers the solution, and at no small price.
Dave:
And it has to be a gift, because you can’t earn it, you can’t merit it, you can’t pay for it, we have already forfeited the right to life. So, if we are going to receive it from God we have to receive it in humility—it’s not even humility, it’s reality, realizing that I can’t pay for this, I can’t earn it and I am going to have to receive it by His grace as a gift.
We hope you have enjoyed this special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. The Berean Call invites you to make your plans now for our 3rd annual TBC Conference, coming up this November 14 through the 16th, here in Bend, Oregon. This year’s event will be held at the beautiful new Riverhouse Convention Center. The theme for 2008 is Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny, the title of Dave’s soon to be released new book. A feature speaker will be Roger Oakland, author of the controversial expose on the Emerging Church, Faith Undone, from Lighthouse Trails Publishing. TBC also welcomes Dr. Donald Chittick, an authority on the topic of origins and earth history, with a special interest in the 1st eleven chapters of Genesis. Of course, TBC’s Tom McMahon and Dave Hunt will both be there addressing the hotly debated creation/evolution issues. Tickets are just $75 for adults and children under 18 are free with an accompanying adult. For more information go to our website at www.thebereancall.org or call 1-800-937-6638, we hope to see you this November here in Bend at the 3rd Annual TBC Conference, Cosmos, Creator and Human Destiny. And now, to tell you more about our ministry, here’s TBC’s Executive Director Tom McMahon: The name, The Berean Call is taken from the Book of Acts, chapter 17, verses 10 and 11, where we find the apostle Paul entering the synagogue in the Greek city of Berea after he had just come from Thessalonica. To these Bereans he preached that Jesus was the long awaited Messiah sent from God. They were commended for being noble or fair minded, not only for their willingness to hear what Paul had to say about the matter, but more specifically because they searched the scriptures daily to find out whether or not what the apostle was saying was found in God’s Word. That’s what we hope to encourage through this ministry. Our mission is to alert believers in Christ to unbiblical teachings and practices impacting the church. We want to exhort believers to give greater heed to biblical discernment and truth regarding what they are accepting as spiritual. We hope to supply those who profess to be biblical Christians with information and materials that will encourage the love of God’s truth. Hopefully, we can help mobilize believers in Christ to action in obedience to the scriptural command to earnestly contend for the faith, found in Jude 3. And finally, our prayer is that we can be used of God to stimulate Christians to look to the Bible alone as their rule of faith, authority and practice in living lives pleasing to our Lord and Savior.
Gary:
We offer a wide variety of teaching materials that will help you expand your knowledge of God’s Word, from books and tracts to audio and video recordings, CD-ROM, our website and much more. For a complete list of materials or to get a copy of today’s broadcast write to us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call us at our toll free order number, 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org. If you would like a copy of this broadcast on compact disk ask for program number 3908, and be sure to mention the call letters of this station. And if you would like to watch Dave and Tom, our weekly broadcast is available on DVD; ask about a subscription when you contact us. You can also download both audio and video podcast at our website. Get a pen or pencil ready; we’ll repeat our contact information in just a moment.
Next week, we’ll continue our revisit to our 2000 series of programs based on Dave’s book, Occult Invasion, and “Can you believe both the Bible and evolution?” In Religion in the News: “Suicide Condolence Cards,” we’ll take a look at that story and address the question: Is the soul really separate from the body? We hope you can join us. If you have questions or comments about this program, we urge you to contact our offices. Search the Scriptures Daily radio ministry is made possible by God’s grace, your prayers and your financial support. I’m Gary Carmichael, and for Dave, Tom and everyone here at The Berean Call, I would like to thank you for tuning in, and invite you to join us again next week. Until then, if you desire to know God’s truth, search the scriptures daily. For more information about The Berean Call, contact us at POB 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708, call our toll free order number, 1-800-937-6638, that’s 1-800-937-6638, or visit our website at www.thebereancall.org.
