Search the Scriptures Daily Program #0101a:

Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon.  I’m Gary Carmichael, thank you for joining us.  Coming up in this week’s broadcast in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of the doctrine of salvation, and, “Has Jesus committed to you?”   In Religion in the News: “Another fringe cult catastrophe.”   We’ll look at that story and in this week’s “Contending for the Faith” segment; Dave and Tom will examine the question “How do Dave and Tom keep from getting depressed?”   We hope you can stay with us.   Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers many teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video tapes, and copies of our weekly broadcast on tape or compact disk.  You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, The Berean Call, which we offer free of charge.  We’ll let you know how to order later in the program.  Now, this week’s cover article:  We continue with our series of discussions based on Dave Hunt’s latest book from Harvest House, with the installment 31 of An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith .  Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T.A. McMahon:

            Tom:

Thanks Gary .   We’re concluding a series of programs in which we’ve discussed what the Bible has to say about the meaning of the cross, about being crucified with Christ, what it means to deny self, take up one’s cross and follow Christ, and what it means to truly be Christ’s disciple.   Now I have some questions that grew out of what we’ve been talking about and I want to start with discipleship.   Matthew 16:24 is a key verse about discipleship.   Verse 24: “ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.”   Dave, before we talk about that, there are two other verses that really seem to press this and that’s really what I want to talk about.   Matthew 10:38 , “And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.”   And then it seems that Luke gets a little tougher, Luke 14:27 , “And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.”   Now Dave, we’ve been talking for months about salvation being a free gift, having to do with faith, believing by faith alone and we would think every one who comes to Christ by faith would be his disciple.   What are these verses—are these seem to be—some might say well they seem to be imposing some kind of works.

            Dave:

Yes, well first of all it doesn’t say he can’t be saved, or he can’t go to heaven.   It says he can’t be my disciple, he’s not worthy of me.   As a matter of fact, it turns out that none of his disciples were his disciples because the scripture says “they all forsook him and fled.”   We have most emphasis upon Peter because he denied the Lord, but all of them fled.   For their own skin, you know when the soldiers came to take Jesus—they—well Peter made a feeble attempt, he was poor swordsman, aimed for cutting of the head and cut off an ear and the Lord healed it and said put up your sword and so forth.   But they all forsook the Lord and fled so I think that we have to understand first of all, Jesus is saying this as he’s on the way to the cross.   I don’t think he’s setting a standard of salvation that we must attain to today, because obviously we are not going to be literally crucified.   So it’s not meaning that we pick up a cross somehow, and if we could just carry a cross around.   Some people think their mother-in-law is their cross, or their wife or their husband.   That’s not what he’s talking about.   So if we are going to find an application for ourselves today, it has to be, I think different from the primary thing he was saying to those people at that time, and we’ve talked about this before.   What he was saying literally was, “I’m going to the cross; I’m heading for a hill outside Jerusalem called Calvary .   They’re going to nail me to a cross.   Now if you want to be my disciples make up your mind right now, that’s where we’re going.   So pick up your cross and follow me.   That’s where we’re heading.”   Now he doesn’t mean pick up a literal cross, he didn’t literally carry his cross until later.   But he meant make up your mind, I’m heading for a cross.   Now of course later in John 13 Peter swears his loyalty.   Jesus says you’re going to deny me.   Peter says they will all deny you, but yet will not I.   And Jesus said you will deny me Peter.   He says I’ll follow you where ever you go.   Jesus said, “Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now, but thou shalt follow me hereafter.”   So the Lord, I think, was setting a standard that no one could attain to at that time.   Even if they had wanted to die on crosses along with him, that wouldn’t have been allow.   He had to die that death for us, he had to pay the penalty for our sin, so this was something that no one else could attain to.   So I think first of all he is showing them the impossibility, of really living up to the standard that he has set.   They’re not really worthy, nobody is worthy of him and Peter acknowledged that eventually.   Lord, I’m not worthy of you.

            Tom:

So it really still comes back to faith in him alone.  

            Dave:

Yes, today for us the cross means something else.   It’s not a place where we literally are nailed.   Well you have people in the Philippines for example, the Catholics who have themselves nailed to crosses, literally really nailed, thinking that that will help buy their salvation and pay for their sins.  

            Tom:

Right, through suffering, through expiating their own sins.  

            Dave:

And of course it won’t do that.   That’s the whole idea of purgatory, or one of the ideas of purgatory.   Purgation: you purge, you have to be purged no matter how much Jesus accomplished on the cross through his suffering, [and] you must be purged.   We talked about that the last time through physical suffering and so forth.   That’s not where our salvation came from.   So the cross today is not a place where I physically die.   It’s a place where I recognize that I have died in Christ.   If I really believe in him, first of all I acknowledge the justice of God judging him when he took my place, he took the penalty I deserved and if I really believe in him, I have accepted that penalty as my own, as what I deserve, only I couldn’t pay it and he paid it for me.   But now I’m crucified with him Paul said in Galatians:2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me..   We’ve quoted it many times.   I am crucified with Christ.   I guess we’ve talked about this as well.   That’s the difference between Barabas, Barabas could say Christ did in my place.   Christ literally died in his place and Barabas was set free.   Barabas could have gone around and given a wonderful testimony how that Christ died in his place.

            Tom:

Now Barabas, for some who may not know, Barabas was in jail right at the time that they put Christ Jesus in jail.  

            Dave:

He was a criminal.

            Tom:

Right, he was a criminal and it was a tradition at the time, (I don’t know if that’s the right word) to release a prisoner prior to —was it the Passover?  

            Dave:

Yes, yes and Pilate wanted to release Jesus and they said away with him, crucify him, we want Barabas.   Barabas was a criminal and he has committed murder and so forth, so Jesus literally took the place of Barabas and what the death of Jesus did for Barabas was to set that criminal free to go out and continue to live his life as he pleased.   What the death of Jesus did for Saul of Tarshish was to transform him completely.   To put Saul to death and out of that was Paul the Apostle in whom Christ now was living and who could say it is no longer I, but Christ who lives in me.   So I think that’s what the cross means for us today.   That we are not just playing church.   That we are not playing games, but when we open our hearts to Christ, something really serious happens.   We don’t do; we can’t do it, but the Holy Spirit, we are born of the Holy Spirit, of the Spirit of God into the family of God; we become the children of God.   Christ comes to live his life in us and that’s why the scripture says if any man is in Christ he is a new creation.   Old things have passed away; all things have become new.   This is not a rabbit’s foot that you put in your pocket and whatever and it’s going to get you to heaven.   No, there is something really powerful that happens when we believe in Christ; we belong to him from then on.   So I think that’s what the cross really means.   It’s going to have practical affects in my life.

            Tom:

Yes, so Dave, these verses then, Matthew:16:24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me., in terms of how we would understand them: take up the cross, follow me, the other verses that I read—he that doest not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me—these in a sense for us today, who are believers in Christ—

            Dave:

Right.

            Tom:

We have eternal life in him.   But we can still be challenged to see if we are living up to, in love, in thankfulness, to what Christ has done.   Not for our salvation, because Christ has already accomplished that.   But he can chide us, so that’s the way we take these verses, I would think, rather than—and Dave as you know, we get letters, it surprises us sometimes.   Because some people write and maybe they have been following the ministry for a long time and we just assume they’re either reading the material or certainly reading the Scriptures, but they doubt their own salvation.   They go through times in which [they question] can I truly be saved?   That’s a little unnerving, on the other hand, I can kind of empathize with that because they are not understanding the scriptures or believing the scriptures.

            Dave:

Well we don’t save ourselves and we are not saved by our good works.   We know that from the Word of God.   One of my favorite scriptures is Romans:4:5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness., “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”   So we are saved not of works, but by faith.   And the only way we qualify for salvation is because we are sinners, hopelessly lost, deserving of eternal judgment.   And when I then accept the penalty Christ paid, I accept Christ as the one who died in my place, I am saved.   It’s not a question of now how good a person have I become.   That’s God’s job.   He’s going to change me completely if I will trust him; if I am willing.   It’s not a do-it-yourself kit.   Salvation is not that, but it is something he will do.   It’s not about what I can do; it’s about what Jesus has done.   Now when I put my faith in that and I trust him, then what causes me to doubt?   Well I’m not living up to what my performance ought to be, or I have failed in this or that.   Well that is common to Christians but that has nothing to do with our salvation.   Now on the other hand, it could indicate that I am really not genuine in my faith.   There are people who claim to believe in Jesus and they are no different after that profession of faith than they were before.   Well generally those people aren’t concerned about their performance.   Paul said, “Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death,” (Romans 7).   It’s the people who can go heedlessly on, they can live for self, [and] they can live like the world all around them.   There is no difference except they call themselves Christians.   They go to church on Sunday perhaps and they are not concerned.   Those are the people that I would be concerned about.   But someone who feels they must be not a Christian because they didn’t live up to a certain standard, I have good hopes for them, and I would want to just turn them from themselves and their performance to the Lord.   Because their performance is not going to improve by working harder at it.   It’s going to improve by faith in Christ and believing that they are dead, crucified with Christ and allowing him to live his life through them.

            Tom:

“The just shall live by faith….”

            Dave:

Right, but the matter of our salvation is totally by faith.   It’s dependent entirely upon what Christ has done.   So the question is did Christ pay the full penalty?   Did he satisfy his Father?   Did he satisfy his own infinite justice?   Then have I believed in him?   Have I accepted this from him?   Then I am saved.

            Tom:

Dave, there are so many verses that talk about the crucified life.   You quoted Galatians:2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me., “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me and the now which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”   That’s an incredible verse.   Dave, 2 Corinthians:5:14-15 [14] For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
[15] And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
is another verse that I think really relates to what we were just talking about.   “For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:   And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.”

            Dave:

So there you have it again.   He didn’t die for me so that I could be like Barabas and live to myself, but he died for me so that I could be like Paul.   Crucified with Christ and now Christ is living in me.   See Tom, the biggest problem that any of us has is ourselves.   I’m my own biggest problem.   You are your own biggest problem.   Self, (we’ve talked about it) had it’s awful birth back there in the Garden of Eden when Eve began to live for self, to assert herself, to please herself and went after that fruit that Satan promised her would be so beneficial to her.   And this is what the cross is designed to do away with—self.   I don’t think of myself anymore, but I belong to him, “…so that they which live, should no longer live unto themselves.”   Now Tom we can talk about these things theoretically, but we have husbands and wives, (I hope) listening.   We have brothers and sisters, children and parents and you know living at home together, [and] you can get a little bit feisty with one another; a little bit selfish.   I mean you see it in children.   Pass a plate of cookies around.   Do you think they want everybody else to have the larger one or do they grab the larger one for themselves?   It starts very young.   It’s in us and this is what the classics taught.   This was what the philosophers taught.   This is what modern psychology teaches us.   How about Carl Rogers?   You have to worship at the throne of self enthroned within.   And when his wife Helen was dying, he took up with another woman, another affair because he had to be true to himself.   Why should he devote himself to a dying woman?   But as that fool in Shakespeare said, “To thine own self be true.”   And yet some Christian psychologists have quoted that as though those were the words of wisdom from the Lord himself.   So that’s our problem: selfish, self centered, in love with self and looking out for ourselves.   It is absolutely contrary to our nature; it is contrary to the wisdom of this world to serve others.   But we don’t do it to gain points with God.   We don’t do it for salvation; we do it because this is what Christ did.   If he had not done that for us, none of us would be saved.   Christ has come to live his life in us.   Now this should be the manifestation of the life of Christ so we no longer live to self, but we live to him.

            Tom:

Yes.   Dave, every time we find the word—not every time, but mostly when we find the word “death,” die to self, Colossians:3:3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God., “For ye are dead (that is dead to self) and your life (so they can’t be talking about physical death here) is hid with Christ in God.”   Romans:6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.—

            Dave:

Well finish that—“When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”   Wherefore mortify the deeds of the body—and then he goes on.   Colossians 3 is one of the most powerful chapters showing what the Christian life should not be and then what is should be.   “Put on therefore, as the elect of God, bowels of mercy, kindness…” and so forth.   So it’s fantastic, but Tom, I don’t know if I can emphasis it enough to myself or to our listeners, it is all in Christ.   It is all through Christ.   He has to do it through me.   I cannot do it in order to follow his example and live up to his standard.   He must do it through me and it is so wonderful when I trust him.

            Tom:

Right and you said just a minute ago, mortify the flesh.   By the Spirit because the flesh profits nothing.   You can reshape yourself every which way you want by the flesh and it just profits nothing.   It doesn’t work.   Dave, we’ve got about five minutes left in this segment.   Here’s a problem that’s been sort of thrown our way.   Now if Christ paid the full penalty—we are talking about the penalty for sin, and he paid it for everyone, well then why would anyone go to hell, if the payment has already been made?

            Dave:

For the same reason—well you had a famous case that went to the Supreme Court.   I think it started in Maryland .   A man on death row who was pardoned by the governor—he rejected the pardon and they took it to the Supreme Court—his attorneys trying to insist that he should be let free anyhow.   And the Supreme Court said no.   A pardon is an offer of forgiveness.   If the recipient of that pardon rejects the pardon then it is of no benefit.   Now the pardon had been issued.   His release was certain, but he rejected it.   Christ paid the penalty for our sins, but if we reject that payment on our behalf then we are not pardoned.   Now if somebody says well some of his suffering was wasted because some of it was for people who reject him and will go to hell.   No, it doesn’t work that way.   You can’t divide up the suffering of Christ and say some of it was for me and some of it was for you and so forth.   Christ first of all had to pay the penalty for sin.   He had to pay the penalty for Adam’s sin.   It was Adam’s sin, “…by one man—(his sin), sin entered into this world and death by sin.”   So Christ had to pay the full penalty.   If there had one been one person saved Christ still had to pay the full penalty because of course as James tells us, you offend in one point, you break one commandment of the law, you’ve broken them all.   Because one is as bad as another.   Any breach of the law is rebellion against God.   That is really the sin.   So that’s the penalty that Christ paid and there is no way that some of his blood could be shed for some people and some for others.   It just wouldn’t work.   He had to pay the full penalty for anyone to be saved.

            Tom:

Right and we who are trusting in him, believing in him are indeed, though not physically, but by faith are crucified with him.  

            Dave:

Amen.   That is the wonder of salvation.   Buddha didn’t offer that, Confucius didn’t offer it, Muhammad didn’t offer it.   See this is the difference between the real Christian life of discipleship.   We are talking about trusting in him, trusting in his Word and his life in us.   And trying to live up to some standard.   Buddha had a lot of good ideas.   He set a high standard which he couldn’t attain to himself.   Confucius had some great ideas, but the great master couldn’t live up to them either.   That’s not what Christianity is about.   We are not under the law.   It is the standard of Jesus Christ himself and only he can live that through us and what a joy, what a wonder it is.   And I just hope that you and I will experience it more and that our listeners will experience more, the life of Christ to be lived through us.

            Tom:

Yes, Dave, I want to close with this verse: Hebrews:12:2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God., “Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.”

            Dave:

Amen.

            Tom:

And we participate in that through him.

            Dave:

That’s fabulous!