Should Churches Make Referrals to Psychologists?

Tom: Thanks, Gary. You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. For the last few weeks we have been discussing the difference between what the Bible says about counseling and psychological counseling. Initially we have been drawing from Dave Hunt’s out-of-print book Beyond Seduction, but lately we have taken material from a video we are producing titled, The Bible and Psychology: Critical Questions and Crucial Answers, which we hope to have ready for release this fall.

Dave, the questions that we used in the video I think will be helpful for our listeners. I think they'd find them interesting. The first thing I want to cover is can we give a general overview of how a Christian should go about dealing with mental, emotional, and behavioral problems? And I want to just qualify that by saying that we're not talking about some kind of disease here, some kind of biological problems which a psychotherapist couldn’t deal with anyway, because the mode of psychological counseling – clinical psychology – is conversation, is talk. A person goes in, they discuss their problems, the psychotherapist listens and so on, but really the medium is conversation. So if you have a disease, conversation’s not going to help you. And we know that “mental illness” is not really a correct term; there’s no such thing as a mental illness, which we have discussed in programs past.

Dave: You just offended a few people, so we better explain that. You can have an illness of the brain, which is a physical organ, but you can’t have an illness of the mind because the mind is non-physical, okay? So basically that’s it. I mean, we could cite Thomas Szasz, one of the world’s leading research psychiatrists – not a Christian. One of his books was titled The Myth of Mental Illness, okay? So—well, maybe some people want to think about that a bit, but carry on here.

Tom: Yeah, but Dave, you can simplify it even more—all I’m saying is that in psychotherapy it’s talk, and you can’t talk somebody out of an organic or physical problem, okay? It’s just conversation.

Dave: And, Tom, let me also mention this—we have an awful lot of drugs being used today, and I’m sure you plan to get on to that, but I think at this point we have to make some statement with that regard. We have a lot of people who have been diagnosed with having a chemical imbalance in their brain and they are given drugs for that, but we ought to tell our listeners out there: how do they diagnose you for having a chemical imbalance? By your behavior, not by examining the brain. Nobody ever examined the brain and found out what part of the brain had a chemical imbalance and what chemical was out of balance. And, quoting Peter Breggin, one of the world’s leading authorities on psychiatric drugs, he said the only chemical imbalances we know of are those that are caused by the drugs that they give supposedly to cure the chemical imbalance. So we’re just talking to people: “What’s their problem?” They tell you their problem. “Well, tell us about your problem. How do you feel about it,” and so forth, okay?

Tom: Right, and what kind of problems are we talking about? I think we should give our audience some insight. In the church situation, somebody goes to a counselor and they may refer them outside to a secular counselor, a psychological counselor, and usually the problems have to do with relationships: husband to wife, parents to children; it could be things of anger, abuse situations, drinking problems, eating disorders, irrational fears, gambling problems – you know. Although sometimes these are put in the category of diseases, Dave, we can lay that aside right now. They are not diseases, folks. Sex-related problems, low self-esteem, various and sundry addictions – again, not disease, but habits that people get into – guilt, feelings of unhappiness, and almost anything else that’s mentally, emotionally, and behaviorally destructive in a person’s life. So the question is if somebody is a Christian, a born-again Christian, a true believer, knows the Lord, loves His Word, or hopefully is into His Word, should he go to some other source outside the Bible, or is the Bible sufficient for that, Dave?

Dave: Well, you gave us a long list and I don’t have it in front of me, but the first thing you mentioned was relational problems: you said husband and wife, and so forth. Well, the Bible deals very clearly with that and with all of the things that you mentioned. “Husbands love your wives. Be not bitter against them,” and so forth. In fact, the Bible says I am to love my neighbor as myself, so that pretty much covers all relational problems. The Bible gives us all the counsel that we need.

As far as drinking problems, I’m not to be drunk. As far as anger, I’m not to let the sun go down upon my anger. I don’t carry anger with me. I’m not to—“He that is angry with his brother without a cause…” Now, there could be a cause, but you have to be very careful. You’re angry with someone for a cause, but the Bible tells me that I am to love others as I love myself. I’m to forgive, and I’m to put things in the past. So relational problems, eating disorders – the Bible has a lot to say about gluttony. I’m not to be a glutton; I don’t overeat, and the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. As far as a believer is concerned, if we know God through His Word and through having received Christ into our hearts, we’ve been born again of the Spirit of God. Paul said, “We are new creatures in Christ. Old things have passed away. All things have become new.”

So number one: we have all the direction and counsel for dealing with every one of these problems that we need in the Bible. I wouldn’t go to some other source – you want to know what you ought to do. Now the next thing is someone says, “Yeah, but I know what I ought to do, but I can’t do it.” Well, Paul deals with that in Romans 7. He says, “The good that I would I don’t do; the evil that I don’t want to do, that’s what I do. Wretched man that I am—who will deliver me from the body of this death?” You know, we know what we ought to do. But the next problem is, “Set your affection on things above.” What do you really want? You know, a person can say, “Well, yeah, I’d like to live a godly Christian life,” but they don’t show that they have a genuine desire for this. They don’t give any attention to it; they spend their time on other things. They’re not feeding on the Word of God. They’re anemic as Christians. because they are not getting the necessary essential food. The Bible says that it is our food. “Man doesn’t live by bread alone but by every Word that comes from the mouth of God.”

So, a person says, “Yeah, well, I’ve been trying. I’m doing my best. I’m reading the Bible and so forth.” Well, the next thing is what do you think is really important: time or eternity? I’ve given the illustration before but, Tom, let me give it again. I was dealing with a young man who was abusing – physically abusing his wife, and he said, “Well, I just can’t help it.” He was a Christian. He said, “I just can’t help it. My father treated my mother that way, and that’s just the way I was brought up. And I don’t want to but I just can’t help it.”

I said, “Look, if she was a 6’8”, 300 pound, tenth degree black belt in karate, I don’t think you’d haul off and slug her if you got angry with her. If she was an investor about to put a million dollars in your business, I don’t think you would haul off and slug her. You are excusing yourself. It is possible to control this temper. The problem is you don’t think it’s really that important. You are justifying yourself, and your anger, you think, is justified when in fact it is not, and you are excusing your behavior.”

So we have to consider whether a person really is desirous of following the Lord, or whether this is just some kind of an idea—“Well, yeah, I’d like to,” but they don’t really mean business about this.

Tom: Now, Dave, we find that time and time again, whether you are a psychological counselor or whether you counsel from the Bible, both of these counselors are in a situation where if the person who comes to them doesn’t want to change truly and really wants to change, well, then forget it. It’s just not going to happen. So the will of a person is really critical here – what they desire to do. And the wonderful thing about the Word of God, about being a Christian, is we have God’s Holy Spirit to enable us if we are willing.

Dave: Amen. That’s the next point I was going to get to. Let’s go back over this in just a little bit.

Often people say to me, “I sure would like to write books.”

“Well,” I say, “the main thing you need to do about writing is write.” All kinds of people – “Well, yeah, I’d love to do that,” but they don’t get around to doing it. You’re going to have to decide what you really want to do – set your priorities in life. “Yeah, I’d like to lose weight.” Yeah, but then why do you keep eating so much, and why don’t you get out and exercise? “Well, I just—you know, I really want to.” Well, you have to decide what you are going to do, and even a Christian must decide to do that.

We sing a little chorus: “I have decided to follow Jesus, no turning back, no turning back.” You have to decide to do that. Now, if you’re not a Christian, it’s not going to help you to decide to follow Jesus. You must first of all confess you’re a sinner, acknowledge that He died for your sins and paid the penalty for your sins; you receive Him as your Lord and Savior. Now, you’re a Christian and you’ve received Christ as your Lord and Savior, then Colossians 2 says, “As you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him.” Now, how did I receive him? This is a problem, Tom, we deal with all the time with many religious people. You didn’t come contributing your part to your salvation. You’re not going to be saved unless you recognize Christ is the Savior. He is going to have to do it all, and He did it all, and he said, “It is finished,” okay? So, how did you receive Christ Jesus the Lord? You came as a helpless, hopeless, pitiful sinner. You couldn’t save yourself and He saved you. You believed in Him and you trusted Him. That’s how we walk: we trust Him. We’re helpless, hopeless, pitiful critters. As Paul said, “The good I want to do, I don’t do. The evil I don’t want to do, that’s what I do. Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death?” I am in a body of weaknesses and lusts and temptations, and so forth. He says, “I thank God through Christ Jesus my Lord.”

So, the next thing is Paul says, “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I but Christ lives in me. The life that I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself for me.” So, I’m going to trust Him.

Look, what do you want in this life? Do you live to eat or do you eat to live? What do you want? You cast a lustful glance at every, you know, person of the opposite sex? What kind of TV shows do you watch, and so forth? What are you feeding? You’re feeding your lusts and then you are saying, “Well, yeah, but I don’t want to be that way.” Now, if I’m going to trust the Lord, I’m going to walk in the Spirit. The Bible says, “Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Flesh lusts against the Spirit, the Spirit against the flesh,” and so forth. So what do I really want? And it’s not going to be for myself… “Oh, I want to get this reward in heaven. Yeah, that’s what I’m working for.” That isn’t going to work, Tom. As you know, it’s out of love for Christ. “If a man love me, he will keep my commandments.” Why would I love the Lord? Because He took my sins; He paid the penalty that I deserve. Now there is nothing, and I can say this from my heart honestly without any fear of contradiction: Tom, this world has nothing to offer me – nothing! And John tells us, “All that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye, the pride of life, it’s not of the Father but of the world, and the world will pass away and the lusts thereof.”

So if I really want the Lord to live in me, then I am going to trust Him. I’m not going to try to carry the burden myself, I’m going to trust Him and say, “Lord Jesus, you’ve got to do it.” As Paul said, “It’s no more I, but Christ.” The burden is Yours, Lord, to carry. But I have to really desire this, and then I must believe in Him and trust Him.

Tom: Dave, one of the really grievous situations that we know – information is available to  all, but the church – evangelical church, primarily, but the church in general – is the largest referral service for secular psychotherapy. And based on what you’ve said, and we could just build it a little bit more here, if a person is a Christian – he commits his life to Christ – isn’t that a commitment as well? We are saved by faith, putting our trust in Him. It’s from the heart, recognizing what He has done for us that we could not do. So my life is in Christ, as you said.

Dave: He is my life.

Tom: So if He is my life, then I have this book called the Bible – we refer to it sometimes as the “Manufacturer's Handbook.” We are new creatures in Him, we have all the content, we have the power of the Holy Spirit to live the life that will please Him – why would I go somewhere else for information to correct my life?

Dave: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. The only reason you would go, Tom, is if you don’t really believe what you say you believe as a Christian. You don’t really think the Bible has all the answers. Now if that’s true, then of course Paul didn’t have the answers. Look, I put it like this, very simply, and I challenge any Christian psychologist out there: if you find something wrong with what I am going to say right now you write to us, explain it, and I will apologize to the world. If Christian psychology—well, what is Christian psychology? They borrowed it from the world, that’s all, and put the label “Christian” on it, but it’s the same thing. But if Christian psychology has anything to offer, anything whatsoever to offer, that means the church was without it for 1,900 years. That means it is not in the Bible. That means that the Bible is deficient, the Bible is not sufficient, the Bible is lacking in the counsel that we need, and therefore we are going to put the Bible aside and we’re going to go to the world and we’re going to get some wisdom from them. And then the power, somehow – the world is also going to offer us the power to live it, and don’t expect Christ to give you the power to follow the wisdom of the world.

Now, I just challenge anybody, it’s a simple statement. If that’s not logical, then let me know; but if that is the case and you can’t deny it, then why…

You know, I quoted the poem last week or the week before – let me just do it again!

Who would leave the noonday bright,

To grope mid shadows dim?

And who would leave the fountainhead

To drink the muddy stream

Where men have mixed what God has said

With every dreamer’s dream?

I’m going to stick to the Bible. But now the person claims, “Yeah, but I tried it and it doesn’t work.” Okay, then I guess God is a liar; Jesus Christ is a liar. He said in John:8:31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
See All..., and we’ve quoted it many times, “If you continue in my word, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free.” What do we really mean by that? I have a huge volume on my shelf – I haven’t looked at it for years – it’s by a gentleman named Koritzinsky; it’s called Modern Semantics, and he points out that if a person really believes something…you know, if you really believe that poison is going to kill you, you will avoid poison. These people who are suing the tobacco companies, for example—Oh, this used to be the big macho thing to do. When I was a boy I can remember the macho guys smoking. If they had known and if they had really believed that tobacco is going to kill you, they wouldn’t have touched it.

Now there are people who say, “Yeah, I believe that, but I have tried to stop.” I don’t think they really believed it; they didn’t really come to the place. So all I’m saying is through the secular book, Koritzinsky, and he says, “Semantics, if you really believe something, it will change your life.” Okay, that’s just from a secular point of view.

Now, if I really believe the Bible, Jesus said, “Don’t lay up treasure on this earth. Don’t set your affection on things below, set your affection on things above. This world will pass away.” If I really believe that, Tom, I’m not going to spend my time trying to have pleasure and so forth for this world and for myself. But look, it’s much more pleasurable, it’s much more [joyful] to live for the Lord and to help other people – to be a blessing to others. But you’re going to have to change your way of thinking, and, Tom, I find that most people who are in this situation – and I’ve counseled with a few of them – basically they are self-centered. And this is where psychology, and then Christian psychology following it, leads you. For example, Bruce Narramore, nephew of Clyde Narramore, years ago…

Tom: This is the Dean of Christian Psychology, so called.

Dave: Right, Clyde Narramore was. He said it was humanistic psychologists Abraham Maslow and Carl Rogers who first made us aware of the need of self-love and self-esteem. Now, this is the opposite of what the Bible says. “Esteem others better than yourself.”

“You don’t love yourself, you love your neighbor as yourself,” Jesus said. Well, how could He say, “Love your neighbor like you inadequately love yourself”? The problem is self-love; we already love ourselves and we take care of ourselves. Well, give a little of the care you give yourself; how about giving some of that to your neighbor and love your neighbor as you have been loving yourself? We don’t have any problem loving ourselves, but as you know, Tom, we have seminars in the church teaching us we need to first of all love ourselves and so forth. Okay, it’s the opposite of what the Bible says. I find this whole thing is self-centered. The problem is self. This was Eve’s problem: why did she want that tree? Oh, it looked delicious to her; it would make here wise. This was something for Eve, for herself. It all began with self, and this is why Jesus said, “You can’t be my disciple unless you deny yourself. Take up this cross, recognize I am dying in your place, and if you accept my death as your death, then you are dead, too. Now I have become your life, and I’m going to live my life through you if you will trust me.” Well, people say, “Yeah, I tried that, and it doesn’t work.” Well, then either Jesus is a liar or you didn’t really try it; you still had your affection on something else.

Tom: Dave, one of the things that I’ve found that trips many Christians up who are sort of on the fence about this is they have the idea that from the psychotherapist they are going to get some kind of scientific insight. Now, if you are thoughtful about that, folks, if that’s where your thinking is, check into some of these theories. There are about 500 approaches there, many of them in conflict, many of them come out of the imagination of the individual who developed them, whether it be Freud or Jung or Maslow, or whatever, they are irrational, illogical, not only unscientific.

Dave: How about primal scream? Dress you in baby diapers, put you in a large crib, and give you a bottle and you shriek, “Mommy, Daddy, I hate you.” I mean they’re so… But this is a serious psychological cure, and there are so many of these things.

Tom: Well, Freud, all of Freud’s ideas are based on mythology – I mean Greek, Roman mythology.

Dave: Well, Freud is a fraud and he’s been pretty well debunked, Tom, although a lot of people still follow him. Amazing!

Tom: Well, psychic determinism – again, if we don’t want to be responsible for our problems, it has to be something outside of me.

Dave: Of course. “It was my childhood, the way they treated me,” and so forth and so on. We have a choice to make: we either decide that the Bible is true, that Jesus Christ is true, that He knew what He was talking about, that the – as you say – the Manufacturer’s Handbook, the Manufacturer who created us, and then who cast men out of the garden because of their sin and who laid down the rules – if you’re going to get right with Him, it must be on His terms, and you can’t be right with one another unless you are right with God. You’ve got a bad conscience between you and God, and you’re dead in trespasses and in sins, you need the life of Christ in you – you decide that either this is the way and I’m going to follow the Lord and I’m going to trust Him. I am inadequate; I can’t live up to what He says, but I’m going to trust Him – and I don’t think Christ living in you needs any psychological counseling. Or I’m going to say, “Well, that really doesn’t work. The Bible really isn’t true. I’m going to go to the world.” Now, you’re going to go to the world and they don’t have any answers. We’ve got psychiatrists going to psychiatrists; psychologists, the profession that has the most divorces, most suicides, the most people under psychological counseling, these are the psychologists and psychiatrists themselves, so why would you go to them? I’ll stick with the Bible and with my Lord, and I’m going to trust Him.