Search the Scriptures Daily Program #1001a:
Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael, thank you for tuning in. Coming up in today’s program in our Understanding the Scripture segment, Dave and Tom will continue their discussion of the doctrine of salvation and, “Do men love darkness more than the light?” In Religion in the News: “Did Sampson suffer from anti-social personality disorder?” Dave and Tom will look at that story and examine the question, “How do we know that today’s Bible is the same as the original?” We hope you can stay tuned. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers many teaching materials including books, tracts, audio and video tapes and copies of our weekly broadcast on tape or compact disc. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, The Berean Call , which we offer free of charge. We will let you know how to order later in the program. Now: this week’s cover article. We continue with our series of discussions based on Dave Hunt’s latest book from Harvest House with the 40th Installment of, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith , here are Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon.
T. A. McMahon:
Thanks, Gary . You are listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. Dave, our subject for today is, “ Israel and the Church” and we know from the Bible that Jesus was called the King of Israel in John:1:49Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel., and that was a title that He didn’t repudiate. He is also referred to as, Head of the church in Ephesians:5:23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.. So, how are Christians to view Israel in the church? Is there a distinction and if so, how important is it for us to understand what the Bible declares about both entities?
Dave Hunt:
Well, there certainly is a distinction in the Bible and any distinction the Bible makes has to be important. The Bible is talking about important things revealing God’s purposes and plans for us. For example, Israel was given a land. They are God’s chosen people. The Germans were never given a land; the Americans, whoever they are, they are a big mixture, were never given America although some professing Christians seem to think so and they think that Christians have to take it back. The church is composed of both Jews and Gentiles, it is something new. The church did not exist in the Old Testament. Christ said, “On this rock I will build my church,” Matthew 16. So, obviously there was a beginning. The church is built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, Ephesians 2. So, there is no doubt that there is a difference. God still has plans for Israel . In Ephesians 2, it tells us that Christ when He died on the cross He broke down the middle wall or partition between Jews and Gentiles. There was a distinction and there still is today except in the Church there is no distinction anymore. There is neither Jew nor Greek, bond nor free and so forth. But we are one in Christ so He made of two one new man, Jew and Gentile became one new man. Now, when the Jews became believers in Christ and part of the Church, that didn’t end Israel . It didn’t end the other Jews, nor did they cease to be Jews themselves but they are one in Christ now with Gentiles. When the Gentiles become Christians that does not end the Gentile nations. So, you can’t say that because the church was founded the nation of Israel ceased to exist. So in 1 Co. 10:32 Paul says, “Giving none offense, neither to the Jew nor to the Gentile nor to the church of God .” So obviously, today after the Church was formed there still exist the Jew, the Gentile and the Church of God . And, those in the Church of God are neither Jew nor Gentile.
T. A. McMahon:
Dave, there is a popular idea out there that I think is running rampant through the church today, some would say, Look, the purpose of Israel had to do with the birth of the Messiah. These were the people God chose in order to bring forth the Messiah, the Christ, and they would say that took place, but then these Jews rejected Christ, therefore, that’s it for them. Now, all that the Bible speaks about with regard to Israel is really the church.
Dave Hunt:
You would really have to twist scripture to come to that because there is continuity in the Old Testament. God gave His people a land; he brought them into the land. When He brought them into the land He warned them that if they disobeyed Him He would cast them out, He would scatter them to every nation on the face of this earth. They would be hated and persecuted like no other people, (anti-Semitism) and He would preserve them and in the last days He would bring them back into their land. And, He would make Jerusalem “a cup of trembling, a burdensome stone to the nations of this world.” They would eventually—these people would be attacked by Antichrist at Armageddon and Jesus Christ himself, Zechariah:12:10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. would return to this earth bodily, physically, bringing the saints from heaven with Him—that’s the Church—to rescue Israel in the midst of Armageddon and to establish His kingdom on this earth, ruling on the throne of His father, David. Now, the church was never given a land, they were never scattered from this land, they were never brought back into a land. So, unless you are going to spiritualize that away, and there is no basis for spiritualizing it, it was not spiritual in the Old Testament, you can’t suddenly cut it off and spiritualize it in the New Testament. No, these are a people, a continuing existence. In fact, the existence of the Jews today and of their presence in Israel , the rebirth of the nation Israel , this constitutes one of the greatest proofs that God exists, that the Bible is His Word. And, if you try to spiritualize this and turn it into the Church, you have pulled the rug out from under some of the greatest prophecies. The Old Testament is filled with prophecies concerning the return of these people to their land and that; in fact, they will be born again one day. Now again, Paul in (Romans 10), begins this way, he says, “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. I bear the record that they have a zeal after God but not according to knowledge.” Now put the church in there. Paul says brethren, my heart’s desire; prayer to God for the church is that they might be saved. Wait a minute! You have to be saved to get into the church. So, the church still exists today and Israel still exists today but they are two separate entities. Now, Tom, as you know, being a former Catholic, this idea is really Catholicism revived among so-called Protestants. It was the Catholic Church that said we are the new Israel . Even Vatican II says Israel is the people formerly chosen by God. All down through history it was the Popes who started anti-Semitism as far as so-called Christians are concerned. They were the first ones who put Jews in ghettos and they made the Jews wear an identifying badge, a yellow hat, whatever, depending upon the Pope that was doing it. They slaughtered the Jews, the Crusaders, the first Crusade under Pope Urban II. As they moved across Europe they slaughtered Jews everywhere they could find them. People think that the Crusaders went to the so-called holy land to deliver it back to the Jews. No, they went there to take it for themselves and the leader of the Crusades said he was going to revenge the death of Jesus and he would slaughter every Jew. And, when they took Jerusalem they chased the Jews into the synagogue and set it ablaze. Pope Urban II said go back and take that land for yourselves. So, this is a Catholic idea, they took the names that God gave to Jerusalem . Jerusalem is mentioned 818 times in the Bible. It’s called the city of God . They took that name for Rome —it’s called the city of God , it’s called the Holy City . No, they took that name. The eternal city, no they took that name! No, this is the City of David; forty times in the Bible it is called that. So, they said, no, we are the new Israel and therefore, because of this error they thought that the church should build a world wide empire and that the church should rule, physically rule over the kings of the earth. And, we have a prophecy in Revelation chapter 17:18, where it says this is the city that rules over the kings of the earth. This is the woman that rides the beast, is a city that rules over the kings of the earth. Jerusalem never ruled over the kings of the earth. Jerusalem will not until in fact, it won’t be Jerusalem ; it will be the Messiah on the throne of David who will rule over this earth. There won’t be any kings left at that time. But Rome has been ruling over the kings of the earth. We document that in A Woman Rides the Beast .
T. A. McMahon:
Right. Dave, what we are talking about here is called, Replacement Theology. That is, the church replaces Israel and, as you said, it’s ridiculous when you just look at the scriptures, particularly prophecies and, as you mentioned, Catholicism played a big part in this, but Catholicism is not the only bird out there.
Dave Hunt:
No, that’s right.
T. A. McMahon:
We find within many of the reformation teachings, Lutherans, for example, we find in the view of eschatology called amillennialism, most of those who take that perspective and maybe even push it to post-millennialism. Now, without explaining those, the idea here is that many of these groups certainly believe that the church has replaced Israel .
Dave Hunt:
They do. Of course, this was the teaching of Calvin. He got it from Augustine. Augustine’s City of God is one of his well known works and the idea that now we are to take over. So, you have this idea among many charismatics, we call them, Kingdom Now, Kingdom Dominion. You would get that idea on TBN. For example, I remember Paul Crouch saying we’re going to take over the airways and if we have to do it by force we will do it. They think that the church must take over. You had a huge—I’m not putting down all charismatics but it happens to be very strong among them as well as among the Calvinists who are anti-charismatics.
T. A. McMahon:
As well as among the Catholics. We are just laying out who is promoting Replacement Theology.
Dave Hunt:
You had a huge conference in Phoenix , maybe seven or eight years ago, it was called, Take it By Force. And they used the verse—they said that Joshua was told to go in and possess the land. And, they said that God is raising up a Joshua generation. Some people call it, Joel’s Army. You have people like Rick Joiner who are teaching this and they said we are going to go in and we are going to take over America because God told Joshua to take over the land of Israel . No. God never promised America to the Americans, whoever they may be. He never promised any land to anybody. He promised the land of Israel to the Israelis, to the people of Israel . Now, that God promised that land to them does not give us the right to take over America or for the Germans to take over Germany . In fact, that land is specified, it has boundaries and it is all laid out there in the book of Genesis, the boundaries of this land. So, the problem is that the Church wants to use promises that God gave to Israel and they want to apply them to themselves, to the land in which they live. For example, 2 Chronicles:7:14If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land., “If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves, and repent, and will turn to me, and will seek my face, and will pray and so forth; then will I hear from heaven. I will heal their land.” It’s a land of Israel . We have no promise that God will heal America . America is made up of godless people who hate the Lord or who just don’t have any time for the Lord. They are in rebellion. We have no promise that God—
T. A. McMahon:
It’s not that there couldn’t be revival though Dave, you are not saying that but you can’t make this a hard and fast thing utilizing the scripture that you just quoted.
Dave Hunt:
I’ve been accused of being negative but the disciples asked Jesus, Are there many that be saved? He said no. Strive to enter at the strait gate. Strait is the gate, narrow is the way that leads to life, few be that find it. So, one of the problems is, we try to make Christianity popular, we confuse Christianity with Americanism. I’ve fought in a war for America , I’m a loyal citizen of the United States of America , but my citizenship is in heaven really, my true citizenship, and I have no illusions that we Christians can take over America . We have been trying to do that for a long time.
T. A. McMahon:
Delusions would be more appropriate.
Dave Hunt:
Yeah, delusion would more appropriate. But we’re going to take over America and we’re going to make Christianity so popular that everyone will want to be a Christian. Well, that’s contrary to the Word of God. So, if you make Christianity popular it is no longer Christianity. I’m sorry. Jesus Christ was not popular; the early church was not popular. They persecuted and killed them. They crucified Jesus and Jesus said very clearly in John 15. “If you were of the world the world would love its own but because you are not of the world—(there is a distinction between the worlds)—because you are not of the world but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore, the world hateth you. The servant isn’t greater than his Lord. If they persecuted and hated me, what do you think they will do to you if you are true to me?” So, the problem is that as soon as we try to make Christianity so-called, popular and we equate it with Americanism and now this is going to be the American thing, we have departed from Jesus Christ. It is no longer the Christianity of Jesus Christ but it’s a new Christianity that we have repackaged and revised to make it popular. You know Tom, I often say when the young man comes running up to Jesus and he says Good Master, I will follow you wherever you go. Jesus doesn’t say, Peter, sign him up quick. James, get him in the choir. John makes a deacon out of him. We’ve got to make this thing popular. Get everybody in here that we can, we don’t want to lose them. No, he says are you sure you want to follow me? Foxes have holes, birds of the air have nests, and I don’t have anywhere to lay my head. We’re heading for a hill outside Jerusalem called Calvary . They are going to nail me to a cross. Now, if you want to be my follower, pick up your cross right now, that’s where we’re going. Now Tom, you don’t get millions of people to follow you when you say that. There is something has to happen, they have to really be born of the Spirit of God, they have to be convicted of their sins and repent before God and cry out to Him for mercy recognizing that they are worthy of eternal judgment, that God’s judgment is upon them. And, they cry out to Him and they believe that Christ died for their sins upon the cross, was buried, rose again the third day, according to the scriptures; they are saved. Then they are in the church and the church is separate from the world. One of the problems, Tom, today is you can’t tell Christians from the world around them. They have the same ambitions, they watch the same TV programs and laugh at the same off color jokes, [and] they have the same ambitions and live very much the same life style. I mean, some of the polls that we have of Christian universities, Christian colleges, tell us that Christian young people have the same percentage committing fornication and so forth that you have in non-Christian circles and some of the polls tells us that those who call themselves “born again”—I think it was, the last poll I saw— thirty some percent don’t even believe in the resurrection, maybe forty percent don’t believe in absolute truths. So, are these people Christians or have they just picked up some idea that they have thought was popular or been popularized? Tom, even as I say these things I know people out there are thinking, well, what a negative guy he is, who does he think he is? We are not defining Christianity. If you call yourself a Christian, then we better go by what Jesus Christ said.
T. A. McMahon:
Dave, our main thrust here has been the difference between Israel and the Church.
Dave Hunt:
That’s what you were trying to talk about and I get off on all kinds of tangents.
T. A. McMahon:
No, no, you know, this is related to it but I’ll give you another side to that. We can talk about the church saying, oh no, Israel no longer exists. Not everybody, but there are those—again we were talking about Replacement Theology who would push that idea. On the other hand, we have those who are in the church who similar to the Galatians, Judaizers. They are trying to make themselves more Jewish although they are within the church. What’s the problem with that?
Dave Hunt:
Well, of course, Paul had quite a bit to say, as you indicated, in the book of Galatians. Now, I am not opposed to Messianic Jews. I guess that’s the way they-
T. A. McMahon:
Explain that for our audience.
Dave Hunt:
Well, they believe that Jesus is the Messiah so that’s why they would call themselves, we’re still Jews, physically, in fact, Paul still considered himself to be a Jew. Romans 9, he talks about those who are my brethren after the flesh. And, in fact, he says, they are Christ’s brethren after the flesh. Jesus was a Jew, so you can’t change that. But they think that, now, if we can just be more Jewish, then we are more Christian and how do you become Jewish? I can’t change my birth, you know, I am part English, Irish, part German and Norwegian, I am a mixture. Now, I can’t become a Jew physically so, well if you wear a yarmulke (sp) and you have some tassels, you know, and you adopt kind of Jewish ways—now number one, it’s foolish for me to try to do that because I am not a Jew. Number two, then why would they do it? Well, they think if they can act sort of Jewish, that then, they are becoming more Christian. In fact, Paul said wait a minute! You are putting yourself back under the law. These customs were for the Jews. For example, even keeping the Passover, now I know that it is popular in some Christian circles, they have a Seder and so forth. I have a few problems with that and again, some of my friends won’t like what I say but they are trying to take Jewish tradition that got involved in the Passover and say oh look, the gospel, we can preach the gospel from this. Well, why don’t you try to preach the gospel from other Jewish traditions? You see, the Bible doesn’t give that to us. So, for me to keep a Seder, to keep the Passover, it has no meaning. My ancestors were not slaves in Egypt . My ancestors were not delivered under Moses from Egypt . For a Jew it has great significance. It has spiritual significance and historic significance and of course, it points forward to Christ who delivers us and Egypt is like the world, delivers us from the world. But the problem then becomes, they start to look to Jewish customs and Jewish ways which brings you back under the old covenant. I’ve been set free from this. Paul was set free from this. Paul said, well, unto the Galatians he said if you are led of the spirit you are not under the law. We have a higher law, that is, the law of Christ. Christ, now, is living in me. You know, the rabbis complained that Jesus broke the law—oh he didn’t keep the Sabbath, he healed on the Sabbath and so forth. He came to fulfill the law, in that he was the fulfillment of the Old Testament sacrifices. Now, we have new life in Christ, that’s why we don’t keep the seventh day. Nobody changed—well, Constantine changed it, called it Sunday, as the holy day and so forth, but the Sabbath is still Saturday. We don’t keep the Sabbath because we are not under the old covenant. Christ rose from the dead on the first day of the week. The eighth day, a new day, we are part of a new creation in Christ Jesus. So, there is a tendency to try to bring people back under the law and that’s not good.
T. A. McMahon:
Well Dave, our tendencies are toward rituals, something that we do that’s efficacious to make us more spiritual and so on. You mentioned the Catholic Church. This is what I went through whether it be the sacramentals or sacramentalism; this removes us from the person of Christ. This is not the spirituality that the Bible offers.
Dave Hunt:
Yes, there’s a distinction between the Church and Israel . Israel still exists, God still has a program for them, he still has promises, the Messiah will return to them, they will face Armageddon. That’s not the church and we need to recognize the difference.
