Does The Emerging Church Reinvent Christianity?
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Welcome to Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael; it’s great to have you along. Coming up in the next hour in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Book of Acts, and “Why Did Paul Appeal to Caesar?” In Religion in the News: “The Dark Side of the U. N.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question: “Can Believers Be Taken Captive by Satan?” We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk or DVD. You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge. We’ll let you know how to order later in the program. Now, this week’s Cover Article. Tom and Dave continue their new series of programs addressing the spiritual movement known as “The Emerging Church.” This week we focus on the question: “Does the Emerging Church Reinvent Christianity?” Along with Dave Hunt, here’s T. A. McMahon.
Tom:
Thanks, Gary. You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. We’ve begun a series on the emerging church movement which we are featuring in our first segment of our program and as I mentioned last week in our introduction, if you are not familiar with this very problematic movement within evangelical Christianity, this is a good opportunity for you to become informed about it. The Emerging Church Movement is a phenomenon among evangelical churches [in] that it is attracting mostly young people between the ages of 18-30, many who have been turned off by the seeker-friendly or seeker-sensitive movement or purpose-driven approaches to church growth. The stated goal of the Emerging Church Movement is to reach our youth culture which is characterized by post-modern beliefs and practices. We went through a list of those characteristics last week and I am sure we will be addressing them in the weeks to come. Now Dave, let’s begin our in-depth—last week we said we would just do a survey of what the emerging church was about, but lets go after some particulars. I’d like to start with the movement. The leaders in the movement talk about—and it’s really foundational to this movement—they talk about reinventing or re-imagining Christianity. Now the idea is that Christianity has ceased to be relevant to our culture and therefore needs to be really, restructured to appeal to society which is mostly non-Christian. Now can Christianity legitimately be re-invented or reconstructed or re-imagined?
Dave:
First of all, it wasn’t invented. It wasn’t imagined. It’s based upon facts. Jesus Christ came to this earth in fulfillment of hundreds, literally hundreds of specific prophecies. He came here to do something specific. He came to do His Father’s will. This is what He himself said. I John 4 tells us the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Now, Savior of the world—what does that mean? Well, we have offended a righteous, holy God. Not only offended Him, we’ve thumbed our noses at Him. We’ve turned our backs on Him and we have taken our own way. We’ve rebelled! Now what’s the solution? Well I think God is the one who decides on the solution. I don’t think you can reinvent it or re-imagine it. You can’t just make up Christianity. You want to make up your own religion, go ahead, but you can’t call it Christianity. Christianity, as we have said before on this program, has its founder, it has its Savior, it has its Scriptures [and] it has its history. Jesus said on this Rock I will build my Church. I don’t see that there is any room in there for re-imagining or re-inventing. The problem is that these people are not happy with what the Bible says. They want to change what it says. They are not happy with God. They don’t think that His version of what they would call Christianity would appeal to modern youth. So now, modern youth are going to decide what Christianity ought to be and what appeals to them and God is left out of this thing.
Tom:
Dave, just to add to that list of what Christianity is about—the Book is a book of instructions and I think that may be one of the biggest stumbling blocks to this whole movement. They don’t want the instructions that the Word of God lays out.
Dave:
Well Tom, that’s their problem. They don’t run the universe and they’re not in charge of the church. The church is the body of Christ. You can’t re-imagine that. It is composed of those that have put their faith and trust in Christ. Now you can’t make that into some old-fashioned idea. Because this is the only thing that God will accept. So finally, how do we get to heaven? What are these men—these church leaders—and women as well involved in this, what are they going to say to God when He says I already told you very specifically the way of salvation. I told you, Peter for example, says to the rabbis—[Acts 4:12] “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Now talk about reinventing or re-imagining—Tom, on the one hand it’s ludicrous; on the other hand it’s pitiful; it’s childish; who are these people that they are going to tell God that they don’t like His way of salvation, they don’t like—. Jesus is the head of the church—He founded it, he’s the chief cornerstone. Well, Lord yeah, but we got a new generation coming along now, and we just don’t like the way you put this—we’re going to try and say it in our own words. Well, Jesus would say you want to say it in words that you think you can communicate better; you’ve got a problem, because this is the Word of God, it doesn’t change, but if you think you can put it in words that would communicate better [fine,] but don’t change it. And they are changing it.
Tom:
Dave at the beginning of my really scrutinizing this movement—this goes back a number of years—this is—I think we are seeing this movement today—it’s more visible, it’s almost gathering momentum that’s incredible, but I remember years ago when I began reading the works of some of these leaders, I thought well, wait a minute—what are they talking about here? Are they, when they are talking about reinventing or re-imagining Christianity—you know and I know that professing Christianity has taken on some erroneous teachings [and] ideas, practices, the culture is involved there, so I thought well okay, maybe they’re just interested in straightening those things out—like let’s get back to the word of God—let’s get back to God’s truth, but that’s not the case as you’ve articulated. Here’s a quote from one of the leaders, he says: “People today are starved not for doctrines, but for images and relationships and stories.” Now I wrote about it in the September issue that this movement for all of its pretense on getting back to authentic Christianity it is really another variation on consumerism, Christian consumerism, just like the seeker-friendly, just like the seeker-sensitive, even the purpose-driven approach to Christianity. Well, I mean that’s what he’s saying here: Let’s give them what they are starved for; they are starved not for doctrines, but for images and relationships and stories.
Dave:
Well, we need a relationship with God, that’s for sure. And there’s only one way. I am the way (Jesus said)the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me. [Are] you going to reinvent that? Re-imagine it? That’s not going to work. See, I am offended by this whole thing. I am offended for my Lord, my Lord Jesus Christ and I’m offended for my Lord God, the Creator of the Universe. He gave us our existence, we can’t draw another breath without him and here we are, puny little creatures, pretending that now we are going to tell God where he made some mistakes. Because what He wrote down in His Word, all-inspired—All scripture is inspired by God and by the Holy Spirit. Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, but the problem was that the Holy Spirit didn’t see into the future; the Holy Spirit did not imagine what would be happening today in this new generation would come along that would be so wise, so far ahead of what the apostles taught that they need something new.
Tom:
Well something that accommodates the culture; the wisdom of the culture.
Dave:
Right, now we need images instead of doctrine. Wow, now as I recall Paul said to Timothy preach the Word. He didn’t say paint some pictures. Be instant in season, out of season reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all long-suffering and doctrine. For the time is coming that they will not endure sound doctrine and these people are a fulfillment of that scripture.
Tom:
I don’t know how you could see it any other way, Dave.
Dave:
Or if we went back a chapter, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God (Paul tells Timothy) and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness (that’s what it was all about) that the man (or woman) of God may be perfect (that means complete) thoroughly furnished unto every good work. Now that sounds to me like the Bible is what we need. Now they are coming along and reinventing this whole thing and saying yeah, yeah, well the Bible, that was old-fashioned ideas and we have this new generation—no, the new generation they still are sinners, they still need to be reconciled to God, they still need to surrender to the will of God, they still need sound doctrine and they are wandering off, they are out in space trying to make it up and Tom as you know, you probably want to get to that, they don’t even know what they believe. They talk about—well it will take us another five years, and if we haven’t figured it out at the end of 5 years we’ll take another 5 years.
Tom:
See Dave, the subjectiveness, in other words, the idea that it’s not what it says, but it’s how you feel about it. I am talking about what the Bible teaches. So now we are going to have a very subjective interpretation, for example that’s what images are about. You know I have an art background and you want to talk about subjectivity? Ask an artist what he has painted. Take a look at something impressionistic or abstract, as opposed to a word—the word—which words having meaning. We can come to an objective understanding about what the writer intended or in the sense of the Word of God, what God had intended, because there are words and words have meaning.
Dave:
Yeah, the words in the Bible are precise. Now we could get really fouled up with our words. Sometimes after I’ve preached my wife will say did you really mean to say that? No, I didn’t mean to say that [and she’ll say] well, that’s what you said. So we can make mistakes. God doesn’t make mistakes, but Tom what you are saying is words have a meaning that cannot be changed. That’s why we have dictionaries. And you can argue this in court. This is why we say we are going to have a contractual relationship about something. I am a lawyer and you are a lawyer on the other side. We are going to be very careful with the words that are representing or that our client has to uphold, has to adhere to. And we will go over those very precisely, very carefully and yet there are people who say well, the Bible, I mean you can make the Bible say anything you want. Well if you could, it would be the most remarkable book in the world.
Tom:
Dave, I had a lady on an airplane (we got into a discussion) and that’s what she said. And when I gave her an example like a contract, you know what she said to me? She said well, I perceive some hostility in you. Well, I was just trying to explain to her how the idea of making the Bible say anything you want (I mean some people try to do that), but it doesn’t make sense and it’s not rational, it’s not logical.
Dave:
Well Tom it’s a sad day, boy I mean we’ve had all kinds of problems in the church. We’ve had the spiritual warfare movement, you know, spiritual mapping, and strategic level warfare, praying and….
Tom:
These things based on experiences, not on what the word of God says.
Dave:
Right and you can ask a simple question—well when Paul went to Ephesus or wherever he went, did he go through all of this spiritual mapping? No? Never? Well, yeah but we’ve found that can be very effective and we have books like: Taking Your City for God and so forth…. I haven’t seen any city that’s been taken for God. And they dare to say when you follow these techniques Satan will lose his grip and these people will come to Christ. I’ve never seen it happen, Tom. They’re spinning their wheels; they’re wasting their time. What they need to do and what these emerging church people need to do is what you said earlier. Let’s go to the Bible; what does the Bible say?
Tom:
Yeah, but you see there’s the problem. You see this quote came from the quote I quoted earlier. It’s from one of the leaders, Leonard Sweet, and I want to go over this again: “People today are starved not for doctrines”—well, why is that? Doctrines are teachings. They are instructions. People don’t want that today.
Dave:
They are the container of truth.
Tom:
Right, the post-modern generation—which one of the characteristics which we went over last week was that they don’t believe in absolutes. They don’t believe thus saith the Lord. It’s what he says, because words have meaning. But look what they opt for (continuing the quote) “they’re starved not for doctrines but for images.” Subjective things—you’ve got your opinion—what does a sunset look like? You’ve got your aesthetics, I have mine “or relationships, or relationships and stories.” Now Dave, a story—there are some great stories out there and they may have some wisdom in it, but they’re not in my face. They don’t confront me with truth necessarily and especially if they are presented as a story. Well I can take it or leave it. Yeah that was okay. But it’s not a “thus saith the Lord” kind of thing.
Dave:
Well Tom if you want stories you’ve got them in the Bible. True stories of Bible characters that teach a great deal and then you have the parables of Jesus. You have the (you could almost call them parables), but the Proverbs of Solomon, they’re fantastic. One just comes to my mind: The spider taketh hold with her hands and is in kings’ palaces. Well, what’s that saying? Hey, guy get to work! What you’re going to achieve in life and what position you are going to have is going to depend on a whole lot of hard work! How does a spider get into a king’s palace? She takes hold with her hands—and there it is—suddenly you’ve got a spider in your house and you don’t know how it crept in. Okay, so we’ve got all kinds of stories; all kinds of mental images, but not about God and not to worship. But these people have got icons now and they even say well, we pray through the icon because this is a doorway to God; and the doorway to heaven. So….
Tom:
No doctrine involved there Dave. All subjective, experiential matter, basically. Dave, here’s another book that—this is the title of a book by an Emerging church leader. The title is: They Like Jesus, but Not the Church. Now, explain that to me will you.
Dave:
Well, Gandhi used to say the same thing. He used to say that I love Jesus, but I can’t stand these Christians. Well what did he mean? He didn’t know Jesus, he didn’t love Jesus. He had an idea of Jesus in his mind.
Tom:
But not the Jesus of the Bible.
Dave:
Absolutely, now the Christians may live phony lives; may not be good representatives of Jesus, but he didn’t even know the real Jesus and we’ve got the same problem there. Let me read this Tom. This is Doug Pagitt, Solomon’s Porch. I don’t even know how large a church that is—is it growing still?
Tom:
I believe it is.
Dave:
Well, he says perhaps we as Christians today are not only to consider what it means to be a 21st century church—I don’t know what that meant—I wonder if Jesus had in mind some new changes to the church that he built that would suit 21st century—
Tom:
Computers and the internet and all of that….
Dave:
Well, but it doesn’t change the basics. “But also and perhaps more importantly what it means to have a 21st century faith.” Wow! Ephesians 4:4-5 Paul writes “There is…One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God….” How are we going to change that for the 21st century? Let me give you another one….
Tom:
While you are looking for that Dave, Dave is going through a book that we offer by Roger Oakland called Faith Undone and in the September newsletter we featured it and if you are looking for a book—the book out there—we would highly recommend—it’s Roger Oakland’s Faith Undone and you are taking some of the quotes out of that for our audience’s information.
Dave:
Right, yeah. Here’s Brian McLaren: “I must add though that I don’t believe that making disciples must equal making adherence to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many—not all—circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu or Jewish context.” Now these men the leaders in the Emerging Church movement are really confused.
Tom:
Well they’re ecumenists to the max not just variations within Christianity, but all religions. I mean God didn’t work through just Christianity, Dave. That’s what they’re saying.
Dave:
Apparently they don’t understand Christianity. They don’t really know Jesus Christ.
Tom:
Dave, just a sad note here, many of them came out of evangelical backgrounds. Some, Brian McLaren, I think he came out of a PB background if I remember correctly—Plymouth Brethren.
Dave:
Well Tom, I have found in my traveling all over the world, and right in Southern California where we used to have so many meetings in our home—the most vicious antagonists of Jesus Christ and Christianity are those who once professed to be His followers. You can almost make a rule of that. Let’s take Phil Jackson—it’s getting to be basketball season again—his parents, mother and father were pastors. It was apparently a Pentecostal church. His mother put on the wall of his bedroom John 3:16, like a good Christian mother would do. He apparently believed that as a child at least up to a certain point when he got into the university. Then he got involved in Zen Buddhism and so forth. Now he thinks well you can reconcile Christianity with Zen Buddhism. Well then obviously he never understood it. Ask Jesus whether what He is saying is different from what Buddha said. And indeed it is! Buddha said don’t come to me with your sins I’ve got my own to worry about. Buddha said don’t follow me, I don’t know the way. Jesus said I am the way—THE way—I AM THE WAY, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father, but by me. So now to say that we can reconcile this with everything else—Tom, they obviously don’t know the Bible. Now, let me read another quote here—
Tom:
They don’t want others to know the Bible based on their teachings, they really trash the Bible Dave. It’s—you know—people think we are just lobbing grenades at these guys. All you need to do is read their writings, read their books!
Dave:
Unfortunately Rick Warren—wasn’t it one of their key books that he endorsed?
Tom:
The Emerging Church, by Dan Kimball.
Dave:
Yes, well let me read—this is a quote from Rick Warren—and I’m not trying to run him down, but listen to what he says—
Tom:
We’re not trying to run anybody down here Dave. It’s a matter of quoting what they are saying. And then comparing that—be Bereans—search the scriptures and see if these men—what they are saying is true to the scriptures.
Dave:
Amen, amen, right. This was a talk he gave to a hundred delegates at a United Nations Interfaith Prayer Breakfast in 2005. “I’m not talking about a religion this morning, you may be Catholic, or Protestant, or Buddhist, or Baptist, or Muslim, or Mormon, or Jewish, or you may have no religion at all. I’m not interested in your religious background because God did not create the universe for us to have a religion.” Well, on the one hand you could say well that’s right, we’re not about religion, but is he going to take them from Hinduism, or Buddhism or what to the truth of Jesus Christ, or is he giving them the idea it really doesn’t matter. You can believe in Jesus and remain true to your religion and even though it is anti-Christian. So we have to really define our terms, and for our young people to be given this to fill their minds and give them hope and the idea that oh this is new Christianity now, suitable for us. It’s a deadly delusion.
