An Urgent Call To A Serious Faith-Part Five - What Are Your Plans For Eternity?

Welcome to a special edition of Search the Scriptures Daily, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with Dave Hunt and T. A. McMahon.  I’m Gary Carmichael, it’s great to have you along.  Coming up in this week’s broadcast in our Understanding the Scriptures segment, Dave and Tom will continue their in-depth study of the Doctrine of Salvation, focusing on the question: “Can you give a reason for the hope that is in you?”  In Religion in the News: “Reaching Dead Saints through the Newspaper.” We’ll take a look at that story and examine the question:  “Are You Buddies with God?”  We hope you can stay with us. Our ministry, The Berean Call, offers a wide variety of teaching materials, including books, tracts, audio and video disks, and copies of our weekly broadcast on compact disk.  You may also subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which we offer free of charge.  We’ll let you know how to order later in the program.  Now, this week’s Cover Article.  We continue our revisit to our 2000 radio series based on Dave Hunt’s book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith.  Today we focus on the question, “Do You Have Plans for Eternity?”  Along with Dave Hunt, here’s Tom McMahon:

            Tom: 

            Thanks, Gary.  For the last few weeks we’ve been going through Dave Hunt’s book, An Urgent Call to a Serious Faith.  And by serious faith, Dave does not mean a faith which people cling to simply because they were brought up say, Baptist and are committed to living and dying as Baptists for no particular reason other than the fact that’s what they are.  The serious faith he is calling people to is a faith that is held on the basis of reason, logic and evidence.  Many infallible proofs as the scriptures proclaim.  If you have the book and have been following along, we’re starting chapter four which is titled: “Concerning Prayer.”  But before we get to that Dave, I want you to give an explanation for a statement you made regarding faith.  You write, “Faith can only engage the unseen and eternal and therefore does not mix with works and ritual.  In search of a serious faith, it is folly to look at that which is visible.  Even to look to a visible cross or crucifix is of no merit.  What occurred on the cross for our salvation was invisible and must be accepted by faith.”  Now Dave the reason I would like you to explain that a little more fully is because it may seem to be some a kind of a contradiction.  On the one hand we are looking for evidence, we are looking for logic and reason, on the other hand we are talking about the unseen and the eternal. 

            Dave:

Well the Bible does say that faith engages that which is not seen.  That’s Hebrews 11.  Tom we need to take a whole program on that sort of thing, but you could go back to the Garden of Eden and the basic lie even before the four lies of you won’t die and so forth that Eve was deceived by was that a physical fruit could give her wisdom.  Wisdom is different from knowledge, or intelligence.  Job said great men are not always wise.  So she thought that a physical thing could give her something that was spiritual.  You can carry that right on down through to Catholicism where they feel that the best thing they could do is to turn a wafer into Jesus’ body and blood.  So that if we could just have something physical and ingest it into our stomach that is the way to get eternal life whereas Jesus said the flesh profits nothing the words that I speak unto you are spirit and they are life.  All of ritualism and sacramentalism, the robes, the swinging of the censor filled with incense, all of these are physical things which people think that makes it real to me and they think that something must be physical in order to be real, but that’s not what the Bible teaches.  We look not at the things that are seen for they are temporal.  The things that are not seen are eternal and if I have something physical in front of me—if I am doing a chemical reaction in a test tube that is following certain laws, I certainly don’t need faith for that.  But the words that Christ speaks, they involve something not physical.  For example when Jesus quoted from Deuteronomy 8 in His temptation in the wilderness, “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God—” What are you going to do?  Can we somehow make words physical so we can physically eat them?  Or when Jesus said, “If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink—” Well, is He talking about H2O that he is going to give people—some kind of Holy water?  When He said to the woman at the well, “If you drink of this water, you will thirst again, if you drink of the water that I give you, you will never thirst again.”  He’s not speaking of something physical.  So the problem is if we could just get a physical representation of that water then we would have made some advance and it would help our faith.  No it would not!  So faith comes by hearing the Word of God.  I trust God for what He says.  By faith we understand that the things that are seen are not made of things that do not appear.  So I don’t know if I am answering your question Tom—

            Tom:

Well you’re moving in that direction.  For example we know that Hebrews 11:1 says, “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”  I think that’s the question here that is a little bit hard to resolve.  Because we are talking about a faith based on reason, based on logic, based on evidence, but is that different from the unseen—the invisible? 

            Dave:

Well let’s try to get an example.  Well we can give you a negative example.  Many people think that if they could just visualize Jesus, then that increases their faith.  No from the verse that you just quoted that goes against and undermines their faith because it’s the evidence of things NOT seen.  The scripture says we walk by faith not by sight, so sight is put in distinction to faith.  Okay so let’s give an example—you alluded to it when you began.  What  Christ did on the cross is not that He was physically nailed there; it’s not that they physically mocked Him, it’s not what men did to Him that saves us, that would only add to our condemnation.  We’ve discussed that before.  It is that as He hung upon the Cross, He became the sacrifice for our sins.  This is something unseen to man—something between Jesus the Christ and God the Father, I mean Jesus is God and that’s a mystery for us.  How He could cry “my God, my God why hast thou forsaken me?”  At the same time He is God, He is the Son, He’s not separated from the Father but He is paying the penalty for our sins.  Now when I believe that there is no physical evidence that you could offer me the penalty that God prescribes—that His holiness and His laws prescribe for sin is not something physical that you can point to as evidence and the penalty that Christ paid upon the cross—when Jesus said “Tetelestai-it is finished, paid in full” I can’t give you any physical evidence for that because the payment that He made wasn’t money against a debt.  It wasn’t some physical thing, in fact it wasn’t even the physical sufferings, although His blood had to be shed.  We have redemption in His blood.  He had to physically die and was laid in the grave for three days and physically rose from the dead.  That’s true.  Now I have never seen Him.  Jesus said to Thomas, “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”  There is so much that I am asked to believe—that which is important—that which is spiritual—that which is eternal is something that you can’t give me physical evidence for.  On the other hand—

            Tom:

That’s what I am waiting for—on the other hand…okay?

            Dave:

Right, on the other hand we have historical evidence that the Bible is true.  We have archeological evidence, scientific evidence, we have prophecies fulfilled—they were physically fulfilled in history.  In time, space, history—the disciples had physical evidence of the resurrection.  Jesus said handle me and see—we were not there to handle Him and see.  We have evidence of another kind.  We know that the grave was empty or the Romans would have put the body on display and so forth.  So we do have evidence.  Now that takes us to a certain point and I have enough evidence that the Bible is God’s Word—you can’t be an atheist, you can’t deny it, so I have enough physical and empirical evidence of that, but on the other hand I’ve never been to Heaven, I’ve never seen eternity, I don’t know what God’s justice really involved, I don’t know the payment that Christ really made.  So I have enough physical, historical and logical evidence to know that the Bible is true.  But it also speaks of things that I cannot understand.  So as we said before, I guess maybe a few times, evidence points in a direction.  Faith takes a step beyond, but always in the direction that the evidence is pointed.  Now the atheist takes a leap, really a leap of faith in the opposite direction.  All the evidence says design, design and so forth, but he says well I choose not to believe the evidence.  He takes a step in the opposite direction.  Now when I say I look at the universe around me and you cannot rationally imagine it happened by chance!  So I say this had to be created by someone who is infinite; who always existed; who has the capability of putting the atom together and creating the human brain and so forth.  I have evidence for that, but on the other hand I cannot fully fathom a God who is infinite; who can create out of nothing—I know He had to create it out of nothing because there couldn’t have been something, some material for Him to create everything out of because material things wear out.  So there couldn’t have been some material thing that was around forever.  So I know that, I know that God must have created it out of nothing by His power and His wisdom.  Do you understand that power and wisdom?  That is beyond me.  So God says my thoughts are as high as the heavens are above the earth, so are my thoughts above your thoughts.  So if I am going to know God, if I am going to walk with Him I am going to have to walk by faith, I am going to have to trust Him.  On the other hand, I have enough evidence to make that faith and that trust thoroughly rational.

            Tom:

Dave on the one hand we talk about—well you referred to atheists and their views.  But the sad thing is among many professing Christians there’s the same leap of faith.  That’s why we are talking about your book—“a serious faith”—an urgent call to a serious faith.  We want Christians to know what they believe and why they believe it.  To have not what you might call preferences for what they believe but real conviction.  That’s what is going to make you stand.  Certainly it is the grace of God, but that’s what’s going to help you stand in days of trials, tribulations, things that happen that you couldn’t stand otherwise. 

            Dave:

Right and Tom we probably said it before but everywhere I go I meet people who have supposedly lost their faith.  For example, a couple of weeks ago I am sitting next to a MBA from Harvard—a very bright young man.  He’s reading Siddhartha, but he wants to read Siddhartha, you know an Eastern mystical—

            Tom:

By Herman Hesse.

            Dave:

Yes, by Herman Hesse, you’re right and he told me—these are his words, he said, “When I was in high school, I believed in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.”  But now he doesn’t believe any more.  Now how do we explain that?  I meet people like that everywhere I go.  I don’t believe that you can fully understand the truth, know the truth and ever turn from it.  I think a lot of people have an emotional attachment to Jesus.  They have been talked into it, or they’ve been raised in a Christian home or who knows what, in a youth group and this was the thing to do.  But you couldn’t possibly know the facts and know that this is the truth and ever turn from it.  Why you would be turning from what you know is the truth to a lie!  So that’s why I think it is important.  We need to train our young people in Sunday school, in our homes to understand what they believe, why they believe it, and to have an absolutely solid foundation so they’re not going to be shaken when they get into high school or university or whatever it is by some bright person who says but oh this isn’t true and that’s not true and so forth.  So Peter said as we have quoted him often we must be ready always to give an answer to every one that asks a reason, a reason of the hope that is in us with meekness and fear, so this should be a reasonable faith that we are talking about.  This is a faith based on facts and evidence.  It is true and you cannot refute it and you could never turn from it once you understand it and Jesus emphasizes understanding.  I think we’ve talked about that.

            Tom:

You know Dave the same Peter—he slipped up, but he also said when others were leaving Jesus—to whom shall we go?  Thou hast the words of eternal life.  But he did slip up, but he repented. 

            Dave:

Tom I don’t think he fully understood at that time, in fact we know that he didn’t because he said though all men forsake thee, oh not I, I’ll die.  And when Jesus was washing his feet, again a physical thing, but it wasn’t physical what Jesus was doing. He was teaching them something.  Jesus said what I do you don’t understand now.  But you will understand later.  And Jesus said you can’t follow me now.  Peter thought he could.  He thought well I’ll take up the cross and I’ll follow Him, but wait a minute, only one could go to the cross, because the cross was more than a physical thing.  So Peter was thinking he would be true to the Lord by enduring a physical death, physical suffering out of loyalty and love for the Lord, but he didn’t have the spiritual stamina, the spiritual strength and understanding to endure it.  In fact he was mistaken because he didn’t realize all that was involved.  So yes, Peter denied the Lord and I am not saying that someone might not even do that out of fear.  But rationally in your heart to sit there coolly now when you’re not being persecuted, there’s no pressure on you and to say well I just don’t believe it anymore.  Like this young man said to me well I still believe in Jesus as a good man.  I said well you can’t believe that he’s a good man when He claims to be God.  He said that he says that He’s the only way.  You can’t say that He’s a good man and at the same time a liar.  So is He who He claimed to be?   And all the evidence will substantiate that. 

            Tom:

Dave I think we can get to Chapter 4 now. 

            Dave:

Oh my goodness.

            Tom:

No, this is great.  In Chapter 4 you start off by stating that the major partner to faith is prayer.  Now what do you mean by that?  This is a serious faith now.

            Dave:

Well yes.  I should be in communion with the God in whom I believe.  And this is what prayer is.  Most people think of prayer as begging God for some favor.  Well, we do cry out to God, the psalmist cried out to God, but prayer is communion with God as well.  If I am really trusting the Lord, I am going to talk to Him about everything.  I commit my life to Him and we pray for His will to be done in our lives and prayer is really submitting ourselves to God.  Jesus said, “Have faith in God.”  But a lot of people think prayer is some kind of force that you can aim at God to get Him to do what you want Him to do.

            Tom:

Dave what you said was simple, straightforward and biblical.  But that’s not what we are seeing out there and particularly in lots of different movements within Christianity.  It’s the antithesis of that.  For example we find prayer as a technique for getting what you want.  I mean this isn’t just among Christians; we have religious movements, well practically every religion out there.  We find somehow a methodology, a technique, a way of getting from a higher power or God or whatever they would call it—results. 

            Dave:

Yes, the Tibetan spin a prayer wheel and think the more times he spins it, the more likely it is he will get what he wants.   Jesus said don’t use vain repetitions as the heathen.  They think they will hear for their much speaking.  There are so many techniques that are offered, or there’s the attempt to make it scientific.  For example, Norman Vincent Peale who taught The Power of Positive Thinking, his most popular book, he said that positive thinking is another word for faith.  No it’s not!  You can be an atheist and teach positive thinking seminars.  Norman Vincent Peale said that prayer—just as there are scientific techniques for releasing the energy in the atom, so prayer is a religious technique for releasing spiritual power.  Well no that’s not what it is.  If I know God, I trust God then I don’t want to somehow manipulate Him into giving me what I want, but I would desire that He would give me what I need.  I am so foolish, I know so little, I don’t even know how to pray as I ought.  Lord please, show me what your will is, what you want to do and help me pray in that direction.  Help me to be submissive to Your will and to be in tune to what You are doing.  But people think no, prayer is a way to get what I want.  Prayer is a means of talking God into giving me what I want.  That is so foolish and it shows a lack of understanding of who God is.  I mean if God really loves us which we must believe and He is wiser than we are, then His way must be best.  So I think the greatest thing about prayer is for me to get in touch with God and submit to Him and say Lord, my life is in Your hands, I want you to guide me.  It is really thrilling Tom to see that happen day after day as God does things that we couldn’t do and He leads us.  I have often given the example but, pardon me again, but so many times a plane breaks down and I have to get on another plane.  I could be praying against God’s will if I pray oh Lord don’t let this plane break down, you know I want to meet this schedule, but there’s somebody on another airplane that the Lord wants me to meet.  So I have to be careful that I don’t pray against God’s will, trying to direct my own life and trying to control my own life.  It is so thrilling to be in God’s hands. 

            Tom:

Dave at that point is to me, the point that you just made is the point of the whole chapter.  On the one hand we are talking about serious faith—well the faith we are talking about is trust.  Trust in God and you are putting in through your prayer, you are putting your trust in Him.  He’s the object of your faith and that’s based on—I mean how does trust develop?  Getting to know somebody, developing a relationship with them and so on and if you are fully trusting in an individual on this earthly plain, you are going to let them have their way.  Fully trusting—if you are trusting in God, you are going to fully let God have His way in your life and look to the results as wonderful.  Because a good God is going to do the very best for you.

            Dave:

Amen and this knowing Him and trusting Him—while it does say that His Spirit bears witness with our spirit—we are the children of God, so there is an inner experience of God that we do not deny.  On the other hand faith comes by hearing His Word and it is based upon the Word of God.  This is our walk with Him. 

            Tom: