Tom: You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him.
Currently in this, the feature article of our program, we’re discussing Dave Hunt’s book, When Will Jesus Come? Compelling Evidence for the Soon Return of Christ.
And, Dave, as we discussed last week, God reveals Himself in the Scriptures as the God of prophecy, and that Israel is His witness to that fact. And, as we pointed out, unlike those who claim to have prophetic ministries today and have worse than poor prophecy to fulfillment records—yet that doesn’t seem to bother their followers, does it, Dave? But God must be 100% accurate in all that He declares about future events, and if He’s not, then we, as we’ve said, we toss the Bible out. We can’t take God seriously, and in effect we have no hope.
But aren’t there stumbling blocks—haven’t people pointed out things, stumbling blocks to prophecy, such as the ten lost tribes of Israel? Doesn’t that situation create a major problem for prophecy being fulfilled, unless of course somehow they’re found in the nick of time? What do you think?
Dave: Yeah…Tom, I don’t think that the people who talk about the ten lost tribes even consider that part of the situation, because Jesus apparently didn’t know that any tribes were lost. He said to His disciples, “You will sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel,” not on two thrones judging two tribes of Israel. Paul talked about the twelve tribes scattered abroad—he said that to King Agrippa. And James wrote his epistle to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, so I guess they didn’t know that ten of them were lost.
Now, as you’re pointing out, Tom, we have serious consequences if ten tribes are lost, because, as we’ve mentioned, Israel is the major topic of prophecy, and the Bible is very clear. God promises hundreds of times, literally, that although these people are under His judgment because of their sin, their rebellion, and so forth…He scattered them everywhere, and they’re being persecuted and hounded and killed—still are to this day.
Tom: Dave, a little background: did this idea come from…you know, as we know, the kingdom of Israel was really divided after Solomon. Rehoboam his son just wouldn’t do, wouldn’t follow the good counsel that he was given, and God raised up Jeroboam, and Israel was split into the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom. The two tribes of the southern kingdom would be Judah and Benjamin, and then the ten of the northern kingdom—isn’t that really what it’s referring to? Their dispersion…I mean, that’s where we get the term “Samaritans” from. Those of Syria were intermingled with the Jews to some degree, and the Jews were taken out of that land, for the most part. So isn’t that where the idea basically comes from?
Dave: It’s where the idea comes from, but it’s not God’s idea. And He did not divide them, man divided them. And the point I’m making is that although they’re under His judgment now, scattered everywhere (not just the ten tribes, but everybody is scattered), that He promised that He would preserve them, and in the last days would bring them back into their land. And Jesus promised that His disciples would sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. So if ten of them are lost, then the Bible isn’t true. And as you said, God must be 100 percent true, so this is very serious. So if ten tribes are really lost, then God’s a liar, and Jesus is a liar.
Now what about it? What does the Bible say? See, this is a myth, as you said. It comes out of the idea, “Well, because there were ten tribes carried away by the Assyrians, that therefore they never came back.” Now that’s a joke! Of course they came back.
Tom: Right, and this is a teaching sometimes referred to as “British Israelism.” Who was it, World Wide Church of God, I believe, taught it, and others?
Dave: Right, and the white races are the Jews. We’re the ten lost tribes. Now, of course, that again is some kind of a joke, Tom. We’re not the ten lost tribes, obviously. If we are, wow! We have really exploded, and these ten tribes have practically taken over the world because the European—the white people, I mean—go up into Scandinavia, and all over. It simply isn’t true.
But you see, Tom, the ten lost tribes doesn’t even acknowledge that. They say they’re lost. They’re out there somewhere. Now, if God is going to bring them back, just to think logically—they don’t even know who they are—but you’ve got a group, ten tribes. Somehow they must be living somewhere. They haven’t intermarried with all the rest of the world. So somewhere there must be the descendants of ten tribes. Now, they don’t know who they are, and I don’t know how anybody else would know who they are, and suddenly one day—Voila! Whoa, there’s the ten tribes we didn’t know! And oh, okay, well I guess we had better bring them back into the land, too. It’s ridiculous, Tom! So it makes nonsense of the Bible, okay?
But if we went to, for example, went to 2 Chronicles 30, it will tell you it’s not too many years after they were carried away into Assyria that they started coming back, and you’ve got a lot of them back there. I mean, how are you going to keep these Jews out of their land? They’re not in irons, they’re not having their legs shackled, and so forth. So they got back.
Now, if you went a few more chapters, 2 Chronicles 34—the revival, the Passover, under Josiah—seven of the tribes are named as participating in this. They’re rebuilding the temple, they’re getting donations, you know, offerings from all of these tribes, and out they go to these various tribes that are named. So they’re not lost! I don’t know why that myth has stuck around so persistently! But that’s the way with many myths.
But of course, Tom, the people who talked about British Israelism, they want to say this is another part of the church that is Israel now. I mean, these people don’t call themselves Israelites, although some of them do. By the way, you know, so do the Mormons.
Tom: That’s amazing to me!
Dave: And Utah is the only state where Jews are called Gentiles, and the Gentiles are called Jews.
But anyway, Tom, it simply isn’t true, and these are Israelites. Now, we had better deal with something else, because…but they are all called Jews today. So, doesn’t that mean this is just the tribe of Judah? You pointed out it’s Judah and Benjamin were the two. No, all Israelites, all descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, they began to call them Jews. But if you went to Luke 2, is it—somewhere around there—or 3, you find Anna the prophetess. It says she was of the tribe of Asher.
Tom: Obviously, she wasn’t lost!
Dave: No. Maybe she was the only one that made her way back, or her ancestors.
So anyway, Tom, it is an important subject because we’re talking about When Will Jesus Come? and He said He would come again. Now, if He didn’t know what He was talking about, about the ten tribes, and they’re really lost and He didn’t know that, then I don’t see how we could trust Him about coming again, and we certainly can’t trust Him about our salvation.
Tom: Dave, just moving on with prophecy—Dave, one of the subjects that we have dealt with, especially months ago when we were going through your book Judgment Day!…what I’m referring to is the persecution, you know, of the Jews. And down through history, I think primarily because of the history of the Catholic Church with regard to Jews, Christians have been blamed for this persecution.
But I want to read a scripture from Jeremiah. This is Jeremiah, Jewish prophet, and I’m going to read Chapter 30:10,11. It says, “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, [referring to Israel] saith the Lord; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the Lord, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet [and this is what I want to talk about] will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”
Dave: That’s Jeremiah:30:10,11. And if you went to chapter 31:10, it says, you know, again, “Thus saith the Lord: Nations, you listen! Hear, O nations,” He says. “I the Lord have scattered my people, and I will re-gather them and I will keep them as a shepherd keeps his flock.” You’d better watch out what you try to do with these people.
So God has made many promises, and if you went further on in chapter 31:35, and I think we’ve quoted that before, God says, “As long as the stars are in the sky, the sun and the moon are up there, Israel will not cease from being a nation.”
Now again, Tom, we could go back and we could make quite a study through the Old Testament where we would find out that He’s using the term “Israel” for all twelve tribes when He says, “Jacob, O Jacob….” All twelve tribes, and we can demonstrate that from the scriptures. For example, if we went back to Ezekiel 37—I mean, Tom, it is so amazing that anyone could think that the church has replaced Israel, or the ten tribes were lost. And, you know, this is the prophecy of the valley full of dead bones, and they’re brought back together. “Speak to them.” And notice what God says to Ezekiel: “Son of man…” Ezekiel is called “son of man” more than 50 times. He claims that God is speaking through him. Then He (that is, God) says, “Son of man, these bones are the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin”? No! “These bones are the whole house of Israel.” And you go back and you trace that, okay?
When God talks about the whole house of Israel, He’s talking about all of them. Go down to verse 19: “Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel and his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah,” okay. Of course, the Mormons try to make something out of that and they’re the ones that have been brought back, etc., but that’s not true. They’re not Jews.
Tom: Which can be proven linguistically, genetically…I mean, all the evidence is there.
Dave: Right, right. “…and I will put them with the Jews. So I am going to make one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand,” okay? So here again, we have all the tribes brought back together. Verse 22, God says, “I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; they shall no more be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.” Okay. So if God is going to do that, He must know who these 10 tribes are. Well, they’re not lost out there somewhere; He doesn’t say He’s going to haul them in from somewhere. No, these are the Jews, and many of them know what tribe they’re from.
Now, we can prove the tribe of Levi. That’s interesting. And you, Tom, could probably say more about that than I can. But there is a chromosome that comes only through the male ancestry, because you’ve got the priesthood from your father, not from your mother. It is very interesting. They have checked it out—the DNA, as you say, Tom—they have checked it out with people today who are called Cohen or Levi who claim, “Oh, yes, we’re from that tribe.” What do you know? The males all have this extra chromosome. So those people know they’re from the tribe of Levi, but there were Levites on both sides.
But anyway, we can support it scientifically, we can support it historically, and Jesus will return. So when we say, When Will Jesus Come? as we’ve mentioned in the past, what are we talking about? Come for whom? Come to do what? Is He coming for Israel? Well, that’s in the midst of Armageddon, the rescue. Or is He coming to take His bride out of here? And we talk about both of these events.
Tom: Dave, one of the reasons I read Jeremiah 30, talking about the ten tribes that—oh, there are things out there that, depending on whose perspective you take, that, you know, this undoes prophecy, this removes prophecy from being valid, and so on. Maybe the major issue that people have trouble dealing with and, as you point out in your book, on the one hand, it’s supernatural, and on the other hand it may be diabolical. I’m talking about the Holocaust. You know, what I read here from Jeremiah 30, God saying, “Yet I will not make a full end of thee, but I will correct thee in measure and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.” Well, we see that down through history, how the Jews have been treated and dealt with by the world. And some of it, as you’ve mentioned over and over again, it grieves us, but historically the Jews have been persecuted like no other people on the face of the earth.
Dave: Well, no one can deny that, and that is one of the great proofs, again, that the Bible is God’s Word, that these are His people. It’s irrational. We’ve talked about that in the past—it’s satanic. You know, obviously satanic because Satan must destroy these people. If he could destroy them, no Messiah! Well, the Messiah came! Now if he could destroy them there is no Second Coming because there are no Jews for Christ to return to rule over them. So God is a liar, and He has had the moral ground pulled out from under Him so that He cannot punish Satan for his lies either.
Now, many people don’t know, and we talk about this in Judgment Day!, my latest book, in some depth: The anti-Israel actions betraying Israel by America, by Britain. The whole world was guilty of that Holocaust. And furthermore, Hitler had identified—they went to trouble to do this—had identified eleven million Jews for extermination in Eastern and Western Europe. As they invaded Russia, they’re rounding up Jews, slaughtering them. This was their diabolical purpose. And of course then we have Haj Amin al-Husseini, the great-uncle of Arafat, who was—wow, what an evil man he was! And yet the British made him Grand Mufti of Jerusalem in the 1920s, and he was a partner with Hitler. Hitler financed him, and Hitler was going to help him exterminate the Jews in North Africa, or so-called Palestine.
So anyway, Tom, it’s not going to happen, but it’s interesting, the verses you quoted. God says, “Though I make a full end of all the nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee.” So it sounds as though He is going to make an end of these and really punish these nations for what they’ve done.
Tom: God says, “If you bless Israel, I will bless you. If you curse Israel, I will curse you.” It’s very simple, and we see it. I mean, I don’t know why I’m amazed! God said it and we see it. I mean, it’s as simple as that!
Dave: Absolutely. So anyway, we have to deal with Israel if we are going to deal with the church. The church did not replace Israel. Christ is building His church, He said. On this rock, the confession of Christ as Lord and Savior, Jews and Gentiles have been made one—one body in the church, the bride of Christ. But Israel has not ceased to exist, and never will cease to exist, and they are the earthly people. God has promised them this land, and it is by an everlasting covenant, the Scriptures say. You could get that stated very clearly in Genesis 17 where God says, “I make an everlasting covenant with you and with your seed after you, to be a God unto them.” Well, they don't accept Him now, but the day is coming when they will, and to give them possession of this land, the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession, He says. Okay?
So the Jews have a land. Our home is in heaven, the church, the bride of Christ. Jesus said, “I’m going to go away to prepare a place for you. And if I go away to my Father’s house of many mansions,” He said, “I will return and I’ll come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there you may be also.” So Jews and Gentiles who are in the body of Christ, who are in the church, they are taken in the Rapture to be with Christ. There are many Jews who will remain on this earth that Christ will return to rule over them, and they are the earthly people. In fact, we will—in our resurrected, glorified bodies, we will rule with Christ over this whole earth, Jews and Gentiles.