Tom: My guest today and next week is Warren Smith. He’s a former New Ager and has been used – well, he’s used that experience to better equip the body of Christ to discern New Age teachings and practices. Some of his books include The Light That Was Dark, From the New Age to Amazing Grace, and Deceived On Purpose, and Another Jesus Calling. He’s also written a number of booklets produced by Lighthouse Trails. In this program and next week’s, the Lord willing, we’ll be discussing his latest booklet titled God’s Dream: Satan’s Ultimate Scheme.
Warren, welcome back to Search the Scriptures 24/7.
Warren: Thanks, it’s good to be with you, Tom.
Tom: Warren, before we get into the details of your booklet, tell us briefly what you had in mind in presenting what you’ve written. In other words, what do you hope that your readers and our audience will be made aware of in general?
Warren: Well, the reason I wrote the booklet is because, over time, I’ve come to realize that this phrase “God’s dream” is an important overlapping concept that is attempting to weave the world and the church together - many of the world’s (or most of the world’s) religions, the world itself, and the church together for the single purpose of achieving world peace on human terms. The term “God’s dream” first came at me when I read Rick Warren’s book The Purpose Driven Life, and he followed that book up by having a P.E.A.C.E. Plan that took off from his book, and he said that his P.E.A.C.E. Plan was “God’s dream for you and the world.” And there was just something about that term “God’s dream” that didn’t seem biblical (and it’s not), and it just kind of piqued my interest, and I quickly found out that he got the term from Robert Schuller, his undeclared mentor. Schuller had used the term frequently in his 1974 book Your Church Has Real Possibilities, and Rick Warren has openly stated that he read that book when he was a young pastor. So “God’s dream” came – at least from my perspective at the time of Rick Warren’s book – came from Robert Schuller, which made me immediately suspect, because Schuller had been very familiar and favorable to one of my New Age mentors, Gerald Jampolsky, who was an advocate of A Course in Miracles, which is the New Age bible; so that just started the ball rolling. And without going into too much great detail, I soon found out that the term was being used by a lot of New Age leaders. And then most recently, just in the last five or six months, I realized that the term was being invigorated and pushed even harder by Rick Warren and many Christian leaders, and I was appalled to find out that this term “God’s dream,” when you Google it, comes up mainly a Christian term now. You just have person after person, Christian leader after Christian leader using the term “God’s dream.” And so I went even further in my research, and I was able to find out that this term first surfaced, as far as I could find, in the early twentieth century with theosophy and New Age magazines – New Century Path magazine – and they used the term “God’s dream.” And then I was appalled to find out that the false Christ Maitreya, the New Age false Christ Maitreya, who claims to be on earth right now waiting for humanity to come forth, has used the term “God’s dream.” Oprah Winfrey has the used the term “God’s dream.” It’s all over the place, and we’ll go into more detail. But – so I was…all this kind of came to a head, and so I just recently wrote this booklet sort of putting everything together the best I could.
Tom: Yeah, it’s a terrific little booklet, Warren, and you have some quotes in there we’re going to get into that – well, they’re shocking!
Now, why are they shocking? Because, as you know, a lack of understanding and much confusion too often takes place when terms are used that have different meanings, and that certainly applies to the word “dream” or “dreams.” For example, a dream usually refers to the thoughts and images that go through our mind when we’re asleep, and that’s a normal condition. The word “dream” is also used in the sense of wishful thinking or one being a daydreamer – that is, lost in thought. You know, one dictionary gave this example: it says it’s like being in “la la land.” Well, okay! It could also mean the desiring to fulfill a goal or purpose, or thinking of a person, place, or thing that is ideal. Well, none of those uses of the term are particularly bad, although they aren’t necessarily the best use of one’s mind. The Bible presents some rare yet worthwhile uses of dreams, such as one of the ways God communicates to individuals, but it also warns against those filthy dreamers or false prophets who prophesy false dreams.
So, Warren, where does “God’s dream” fit in with those definitions? I mean, is it a good, bad, or indifferent concept?
Warren: Well, no, it’s hardly indifferent. It’s very purposeful, and I think it’s a bad concept, because God doesn’t dream! Just literally, He doesn’t slumber or sleep. But I think the way that dream is being used here is more in terms of visualizing, creating, trying to project out what you want and then creating that through your thoughts, which is totally New Age.
Warren: So this idea of God’s dream is really a very faulty, unbiblical concept. And as you mentioned, Jude talks about filthy dreamers, Jeremiah talks about those false prophets who have false dreams. It’s just – throughout the Bible, there’s just no mention at all of this idea of God’s dream. And what it really comes down to, Tom, is that in the New Age, we would create our reality by visualizing what we wanted, and that’s what they’re using the phrase for here is to try to create…by getting everybody on the same page to create world peace, and I think that’s where we’re going. And the prophet Daniel made it very clear in Daniel 8 that the Antichrist, by peace, would destroy many, and it was going to be a wonderful deception. He will destroy wonderfully, so it’s going to look good. And the term “God’s dream” sort of has that glow about it, unless you pierce it a little bit further and see that it’s being used by – led across the spectrum from Oprah Winfrey, to the pope, to Rick Warren, to the false Christ Maitreya. And it’s kind of like, “What is going on here?” How did this term that has no biblical basis become so profoundly in our vocabulary today as a church and as a world?
Tom: Warren, not to puff you up here, but one of the reasons I love to have you not only on radio with me here, but at conferences, because your heart is for discernment. You’ve come out of the New Age; you know what it’s about. You’ve seen it influence and impact the church, and that’s so important. Your booklet opens with a verse from 2 Corinthians:2:11: “Lest Satan should get an advantage of us, for we are not ignorant of his devices [or schemes, strategies, tactics, deceptions, seductions].” So that’s critical in our day for believers. So what’s the important – how would you underscore the importance of what we’re doing, discernment with regard to a believer today?
Warren: Well, Tom, as you well know, I mean, your ministry is founded on this principle of being a good Berean, testing everything by Scripture to see if these things are so. And when Jesus was asked, “What will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the world?” He said, “Take heed that no man deceive you, for many shall come in my name saying, ‘I am Christ.’” Deception is the primary warning that the Lord gives us about the future, and it is just completely embedded throughout the New Testament and the Old Testament. We’re told – like I’m just thinking of in Philippians 3 it says, “Rejoice in the Lord.” The very next line: “Beware of evil workers.” Don’t get lost in your rejoicing and praising and getting all excited about God’s dream. Watch out for the tricks and the traps.
Another thing that comes to mind is Psalm 144, where basically it talks about the right hand of falsehood. Now, what is that? Well the right hand is God’s authority, it has everything to do with His Word, but yet it looks like it’s from God but it’s not. The right hand of falsehood is a very deceptive concept, and it’s used by strange children, according to that Psalm, and we have some strange things coming into the church from the world, and we’re not questioning them, and I think that people are just getting a little bit carried away with spiritual experiences, things that are subjective, things that feel good…. You know, Tom, from the ‘60s, some of us go back that far, and even a little bit before that, it’s kind of like, “If it feels good, do it.”
God’s dream – “Oh, hey! Let’s all get on board with God’s dream. Let’s create the future that we want.”
One teacher in particular that has risen over the last decade or so, a guy named Leonard Sweet, said that we need to save God’s dream now, and we are the people to do it. It’s kind of like it’s putting the burden on humanity, like God’s dependent upon humanity for the implementation of his plan, and that’s just not the case. That’s not any coincidence that Leonard Sweet has said that God is embedded in His creation – in other words, the creation is God; God is in everyone and everything, and that’s where this whole thing is going. The New Age teachers proclaim very clearly that if we are just able to allow ourselves to have the belief that God is in everyone and everything, then we can have world peace. You can be a Christian, you can be a Buddhist, you can be a Hindu, as long as you allow that God is in everyone and everything. But, Tom, as you well know, God is not His creation. God is God and we are not. So that’s the leaven that they’re trying to introduce to bring this whole thing to pass, and it’s an amazing thing to behold, and I’m surprised that so many Christian leaders are using this term without thinking about it.
Tom: Well, that’s the problem: without thinking.
Now, as – I hope our listeners, as you’re listening to this, we’re trying to explain something very specific in terms of the use of “dream” – “God’s dream” – and we’re going to underscore our concerns about that. But the point being is that I don’t want people freaking out. They say, “Well, I dream a lot! I dream this, I dream that.” We’re not talking about natural dreaming, okay? It could be the pizza that you had last night that created the dream while you slept. But my point is that God uses dreams and has…look through the Old Testament in particular: He communicated to individuals in many cases throughout the Old Testament through dreams. But that’s God communicating. It’s not making these people a part of His dream, which I think is important to underscore here.
So discernment is the key, and what we’re trying to do, and as you follow us through this, be aware of what is happening. Just as Warren mentioned, there are people we’re surprised…. Christian leaders are using this term in the wrong way based on a philosophy of Eastern Mysticism, not based…or Hinduism, or the New Age, which is the latter day exposition of these things. So that’s a real concern that I have.
Now, in your booklet, this is a movement, okay, and like many movements, people are trying to promote their ideas or concepts, their agenda, basically. You mentioned, Warren, that this movement of “God’s dream” is resorting to devices that make it seem more valid, that make it seem like, “Oh, yeah, I get the gist here.”
Now, I’ll give you an example, and then you pick up, Warren, with certainly the concept of God’s dream. But, for example, within the LGBT or homosexual movement has tried to identify the Civil Rights movement in order to make their goals a race issue, and those promoting “God’s dream” seem to be doing the same thing! Explain what’s taking place.
Warren: Well, what’s really interesting is New Age leader Neale Donald Walsch, who has written a series of books about his conversations with God – this is a huge New Age leader. His book Conversations with God was the number one New York Times Bestseller for over two years, and most Christians don’t even know who he is! Talk about being ignorant of Satan’s devices and schemes. He’s not been thoroughly exposed.
Okay, he says that God told him, and he says – his New Age god who purports to be “the God,” the one and only God – this god says, “I have said repeatedly that the new spirituality [the New Age spirituality, that is] is a civil rights movement for the soul.” And what the whole New Age movement is basically saying is the same as Hinduism, which is we are in a dream state; this is all an illusion, this life that we’re leading. And the only way for God to get into our heads and to get us the real truth (God in everything) is for God to enter into our dream with His dream, God’s dream. And that’s what the Course in Miracles is all about; that’s the same set of books that Robert Schuller had study groups in the Crystal Cathedral, it’s the same Course in Miracles that I held to be my New Age bible when I was in the New Age, and the Course in Miracles basically says that God’s dream is the ability for us to finally understand that we are God. We are all one, because we are all God, and that when His dream enters into our dream and we get it, then we awaken to the truth that we are all God. And then we wake up and we have world peace, and we’re all on the same page. And we can all be Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, as long as we all agree that we’re all connected, because we’re all divine because we’re all God. And it’s a lie, and it’s very clear in the Bible that this is a lie, but they’re presenting it in terms of a Civil Rights movement – why? Because Martin Luther King, his whole movement was based on his “I Have a Dream.” And to promote this God’s-dream, civil-rights-movement-for-the-soul, New Age leaders are in the process of co-opting Martin Luther King’s inspirational “I Have a Dream” theme for their own “We have a dream, God’s dream” New Age purposes that they are trying to infer through some of the language that Martin Luther King used. He talks about the birth of a new age, he talks about a beloved community, he talks about being spiritually one, and they’re trying to make it look like Martin Luther King was really a closet New Ager, but he was not. This was all in relation to racism and to a civil rights movements based on racial equality. It had nothing to do with the New Age principles. I’ve never seen Martin Luther King say that God was in everyone. As a matter of fact, Tom, I actually found an article written by a Unitarian Universalist that said that Martin Luther King was not a proponent of that much liberality in his religion.
Tom: You know, you’re right! Certainly Martin Luther King – this is why I mentioned the LGBT, they tried to co-opt the same thing, saying that homosexuality is a racial thing. No, no!
But on the other hand, Martin Luther King was taken out of context continually for the agenda that these guys are promoting!
Warren: Yeah. Let me just quote from my booklet…
Warren: “With a willingness to pull out-of-context phrases from King’s speeches and writings, even from youthful and idealistic college essays, it seems that New Age leaders want everyone to believe that Martin Luther King Jr. was really a closet New Ager, a New Age prophet far ahead of his time, and if King were alive today, he would be the first to champion their civil rights movement for the soul. But this is simply not true. King believed in the sinfulness of man, not the divinity of man. In a 2002 Unitarian Universalist World magazine article, Unitarian minister Rosemary Bray McNatt addressed the subject of why Martin Luther King was not a Unitarian Universalist. She cited King’s famous essay Pilgrimage to Nonviolence where King clarified that his liberal theology only went so far.” And in that quote that I have in the booklet, he basically just said that he had come to see that liberalism’s superficial optimism concerning human nature caused it to overlook the fact that the reason is darkened by sin. So the misunderstanding of humanity has to do with sin, it’s not the need to see that we’re all God when we’re not. So it’s a complete flip of the reality of our human nature.
Tom: Mm-hmm. As you well know, Warren, Scripture talks about the confusion in the last days – worse than that, worse than confusion: “The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine.” Well, we could also say that the time is now – that, as you pointed out, Christian leaders, whether it be professing Christians or true Christians, they’re not thinking this stuff through, and the impact that it has. If you’ve got a concept of God that’s not true to Him, to the Word of God, that’s blasphemy! You know? You’ve got – you could end up with a wrong god, and the problem with influential leaders is they can be leading people away from the God of the Bible through not thinking and applying these concepts, which, as you pointed out, whether it be New Agers or Eastern mystics or whoever it might be – contemplative Christians, so called, they’re leading people away from the Lord.
Warren: Exactly. And what it comes down to, Tom, is it’s almost like some of our so-called Christian leaders are saying, “You know, we just couldn’t quite understand quantum physics back, you know, when Jesus was around, so He didn’t really bring it up.” And so now, with all these understandings of quantum physics, it’s proving (they’re saying) that God is in everyone and everything. So what’s important is that everything be set right. This is a phrase that’s coming up a lot. It comes up in the Course in Miracles, it comes up in Eugene Peterson’s The Message – that things need to be set right, which would be that we need to “get it” that God is in everyone and everything, and if we get that, then we can have world peace, and we can all be in complete cosmic harmony, and it just is not true at all. And the Book of Revelation absolutely contradicts that, and it’s being overlooked.
The New Age says there’s an alternative to Armageddon and the church is walking right into that trap.
Tom: This is why I love what you do, Warren, as I mentioned before, because you see these things because you were a part of it for quite a while. But, you know, it’s not all that complex, folks. For example, if God is in everything, okay – panentheism: He’s in everything, or, you know, everything is God – well, wait a minute, don’t we have sin and evil in the world? Well, if that’s the case, then God is a sinner – God has sin, right? We see the earth breaking down. We see issues that are going on as, say, this world can’t last forever. The second law of thermodynamics – if God is in that, if He’s in everything, then we have God breaking down, we have God…it’s irrational, illogical. But, as you pointed out, it seems good, it feels good, the idea that I’m God; “I like that idea,” and so on. Even though it is, as I said, antithetical to the God of the Bible, and that’s Satan’s scheme, that’s the whole idea of why he’s bringing this stuff forward.
Warren: Yeah, it’s kind of…you know, this thought just hit me before we started the program: it’s kind of like the movie Field of Dreams, and if you just inject God’s dream – “If you build it, He will come.” It’s like God’s dependent upon us to achieve His purposes, and that just isn’t the way things work.
Warren: And the whole idea was that deceased baseball players manifest on that baseball diamond in Iowa, and you’re actually bringing – you know, it’s kind of like “as above, so below,” which is an occult New Age term that Eugene Peterson injected into the Lord’s Prayer and put in these occult words into the Lord’s mouth in The Message. It’s all kind of coming together, and this “God’s dream” theme is what’s going to try to sew it all together and to get everybody on a subjective, emotional page to try to bring world peace, but by overlooking and overriding Scripture, which is the true Word of God.
Tom: Right. Now, we’re talking about Warren Smith’s booklet God’s Dream, and this whole concept, and the booklet is absolutely terrific. But the most stunning thing about the booklet are the names that you quote who, wittingly or unwittingly, have bought into this. But we’re going to save that for…we’ve got about a minute left in this session. So, Warren, we’re going to save that for our Part 2 of this program, and we look forward to having you back and getting on with this important information.
Warren: Thanks, Tom. I look forward to returning.