Jim and Chuck Visit the Vatican

A report and comment on religious trends and events being covered by the media.This week’s item is from Religion News Service, December 2000, with the headline: “Evangelicals, Catholics Discuss Family.”

It was a striking image to one observer: evangelical Protestant powerhouses James Dobson and Chuck Colson visiting the headquarters of the Catholic Church, the very institution Protestants rebelled against centuries ago.Dobson and Colson joined a global cast of business executives and Catholic politicians, lawyers and scholars last month for a three-day conference at the Vatican on the world economy’s impact on families.They also met briefly with the Pope.

For centuries, Catholics and Protestants have clashed over the role and infallibility of the pope, among other issues.That makes the brief meeting among Pope John Paul II; Dobson, president of the Colorado Springs based Focus on the Family; and prison ministry leader Chuck Colson a special moment.

The significance was not lost on Colson who, according to one conference participant, noted that there would have been a time when he would not have been invited and he would not have come.

Though Catholics and Protestants disagree on theological matters, dialogue between the faith groups has been going on for years.On several social issues such as opposition to abortion and homosexuality, many evangelicals and Catholics find common ground.

Tom:

Dave as soon as we bring these names up, these are the heroes for many Christians out there among evangelical Christians, and as soon as we address situations that these men are involved in, people get very upset.

Dave:

Well it’s just a news item Tom.So it was in the news and it’s no secret. I am sure there were other evangelical leaders there that were not mentioned.

Tom:

Right, but there’s some things to talk about with regard to this.Maybe many of our listeners know that I am involved in and one of the co-founders of Reaching Catholics for Christ.Why would we even have an organization like that except there’s something, in our view as Bible-believing Christians, there’s something wrong with the Catholic gospel?It’s not a gospel that saves.So here we have two leading evangelicals involved with Roman Catholics on a dialogue basis for issues and so on and as the article points out, Colson says he would not have been invited or he would not have come to a conference in years past.Why?

Dave:

Something has changed a bit, but let’s go back just a little bit Tom. They met at the Vatican for a three day conference.These are (many of them) political business leaders.Not too long ago the Pope called Kofi Anen, Secretary General of the United Nations—summoned him to the Vatican!This man has tremendous power.What authority, what right?Is he the expert on families?He’s supposedly a celibate—he’s not even married.How does he become an expert of families?Now we are going to the Vatican and we are going to meet with a lot of celibate priests to talk about families.I don’t think they have much experience.You know it does take some experience.I can remember my wife and I have said often, wow, we are amateurs at this!How come we didn’t get a chance to practice up a bit trying to raise our children?So there’s something a little bit strange there to begin with, but there’s tremendous power focused there.It talks about “faith groups” have been in dialogue.What do you mean “faith groups?”Well Muslims have faith, Buddhists have faith and so forth, but that’s not the faith of the Bible.So now we brought this thing down to a lower level, what are we talking about?Theological discussion, they say, well what do you mean by theological, what is the source of our authority?We’re going to have a theological discussion—what is the source of your authority.We have theologians who do not even believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but we’re going to honor them now because they are theologians.So we’re all going to get together and we’re going to discuss this.If we want to be truthful about this, the Pope has said not to long before this conference, there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church.That was said in the catechisms.It’s been said, as you know, for centuries.It was said back there in 1302 by Pope Boniface VIII and recently in the year 2000 when the Pope opened those four holy doors and pilgrims came from all over the world along with these gentlemen who were there.These world leaders are pilgrims who came to walk through holy doors in Rome to get forgiveness of sins—for walking through a door!And the Pope without any embarrassment said oh this was begun by Pope Boniface VIII in 1300. He began this tradition of opening these holy doors and pilgrimages and so forth.My gracious, but he doesn’t tell you that Pope Boniface VIII—the man was so evil!He wiped out the entire city of Palestrina, Italy, about 8000 people, smashed every building except the Cathedral, [and] sowed the fields with salt, just because these people had crossed him.He was a murderer; I mean I could go on and on and yet this is the man who started this and in 1302 Unum Sanctum—this Papal Bull, no offense intended, that’s what they call it, he said there is no salvation outside the Roman Catholic Church and every soul must be subject to the authority of the Royal Pontiff for salvation.Now it seems to me that—

Tom:

Dave are you going to get the part where just recently he said there is salvation outside the church and all you have to do is be a good and honorable person and do your best.

Dave:

They say both things Tom, that’s the problem.But it seems to me that there was an honoring of the Pope as having an authority, which I do not believe, is biblical.So why would James Dobson, why would Chuck Colson even go there as though the Pope does have this honor and as though there is some solution that can be made by our discussion over these issues.We just went through—well we didn’t do a good job, but we went through Colossians 3.The solution there is very clear.There is no way we can mortify the deeds of the body, no way we can be like Christ, no way that families can be what they ought to be except that we are crucified with Christ and our life is hid with Christ and God.He’s our life!I guarantee you that was not the solution that was presented there.Then why would evangelicals get involved in this?

Tom:

Well in addition to that they are going to Rome with its false gospel that has led a billion people right down a primrose path and you know that’s a crime, I believe.

Dave:

Yes when you say that Tom, we have to back it up. I guess I mentioned it before but salvation in the Catholic Church is through works, through sacraments, through rituals, even wearing scapulars that promise you if you wear it you’ll escape eternal fire and so forth.I am sorry, we don’t want to offend people out there, but there’s only one way and that is the gospel of Jesus Christ and if we have a false gospel people are being deceive and we don’t want that and we just say again, check us out from the Bible, just Search the scriptures daily and see whether what we say is true according to the Word of God.Check the Pope out, check everybody out by God’s Word.