Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with T. A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael; thanks for tuning in. In today’s program, Tom wraps up a two-part series with guest Tommy Ice as they address the topic: Knowing the End from the Beginning. And now, here’s Tom.
Tom: Thanks, Gary. Well, if you listened to part one, you know that the subject has been eschatology, simply meaning what the Bible has to say about the Last Days and events that surround the return of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. And discussing the subject with me is Tommy Ice. He is the executive director of the Pre-Trib Research Center, which produces a newsletter and hosts an annual conference that focuses primarily on biblical prophecy. Tommy, welcome back to Search the Scriptures 24/7.
Tommy: Great to be back with you, Tom.
Tom: And, Tommy, you know, when I received this book – I guess Harvest House sent it to me…
Tom: …I was so excited about it! It’s a book – it’s a beautiful book – in a coffee table style; it’s only about 150 pages. It has impeccable charts – beautiful charts – in it. But what I love about this thing is it lays out simply the chronology of the Bible. Last week I quoted from the back of the book: It says, “God’s plan made clear from beginning to end. And honestly, Tommy, in 150 pages, and most of those charts, you guys lay it out. It’s just terrific.
Now, why am I excited about this? Because I’ve been writing to and dealing with young people, whether it be in England or this country, and so on, and, honestly, Tommy, they’re clueless when it comes to God’s plan laid out simply in the Bible, because they’re buying into things like a “coming world revival.” They’re buying into things like “Christians are taking over the world,” being led by those of the New Apostolic Reformation, by schools like the School of Supernatural Ministry at Bethel. This would be Bill Johnson; this is IHOP, International House of Prayer, Mike Bickel in Kansas City. And they have satellites all over the world. You have music groups like Jesus Culture promoting this idea in their music; and Hillsong United out of Australia. So, I hate to say this, because our young people are very bright, but they’re not reading the Scriptures. They’re not looking at the simple things that God has laid out. And, Tommy, we talked earlier about your kids and my kids, who are walking with the Lord and know the Lord, but their peers – it’s a heartbreak as far as I’m concerned.
Tommy: Well, yeah. I mean, God’s Spirit has to open their hearts to the Word of God, and He does that, but it appears right now that He’s not doing it at the rate He’s done it in the past or during our lifetime. But nevertheless, the Bible taught, and there’s got to be a downturn, or a downgrade, as Spurgeon would call it – it would be things that the Bible predicts about the future that are going to happen, and then, of course, they will. There are, for example 39 genealogies in the Bible. But only two of them have numbers attached, in other words, dates. And those two are found in Genesis 5 and Genesis 11. And you can go, for example to Genesis 5 and add up the ages, like Adam was 130 years when he had Seth. Okay, now, I don’t believe that that was the first child that Adam had, but nevertheless this was the elect child, or whatever you want to call it, the one that’s mentioned in the timeline. And then Seth was 105 years old when he had Enos. And Enos was 90 when he had Cainan. You add these up, and you come up to 1,656 years, and people wonder, “Is that really true? Maybe there’s gaps,” and all of that.
Well, you can check your math, and you can add this up a second way: And you add the age of Adam when Methuselah was born, and he lived 969 years, and Adam was 687 years old when Methuselah was born. And you add those two together, and Methuselah died in the year the flood came. So you add them together and guess what you come up with: 1,656 years! So this demonstrates that there are no gaps time wise in this. And so the flood came in the year 1656 after the Creation, so it shows that as the Bible says, “Every thought of man’s heart was only evil continuously.” In other words, that’s why the flood came.
And then it says, “Afterwards, every thought of man’s heart was only evil continuously.” So the flood did not wash away man’s sin nature, and when you read the genealogies going into chapter 11, you find that to be a trajectory of the descendants [that ]was heading in the same direction that it was before the flood. But then God does what? He calls Abram out of Ur of the Chaldees, and He started His kingdom, which was the goal of history all the way back to the Garden of Eden – man was supposed to subdue the earth to the glory of God. He failed. God transferred this world over to Satan, and now you have God countering the kingdom of man, which began after the Flood, when God told people to be fruitful, multiply, and scatter across the earth, instead, what did they do? They joined together and they thought they could be God. They could protect themselves from God, and they built a tower. So God divides the languages, probably dividing the earth as well at that time. Genesis:10:25: “Peleg, for in his days was the earth divided,” and then you have the listing of the genealogies there, with numbers attached. And so you can come up to the time of Abraham. And that brings you there, and we can pick it up in the Bible from Abraham on to the time of Christ, and so you’re able to have a framework for how long the earth has been here, for example, and the genealogy of what God’s doing, and He calls Abraham out of Ur of the Chaldees, and He’s going to establish His kingdom through Israel. This is why Israel has to be part of the Kingdom of God.
And so you have all of these prophecies, and the historical books are, in a sense, prophetic, because it’s God’s divine interpretation of what’s happening in history, you see. Israel’s not doing too well, and so you see judgment. But God is always faithful. He always keeps His promises. And so, the Bible, those historical books, are a record of how the nation is doing in terms of their constitution, or covenant, which is the Book of Deuteronomy, you see. And, so, you have the prophets who often bring lawsuits against the nation for violating their constitution. And except –having subjective judges like we have today and around the world today, you have God as the judge. And so He is going to hold people accountable.
And so, He brings the Messiah out of the nation of Israel. He provides the Scripture through the Jews, and I believe the Jews are going to fulfill their calling, as Isaiah says, to be a light to the nations through the 144,000 – that they evangelize the world in the Tribulation. And it says in Revelation 7 that a multitude too great to be numbered from every tribe, kindred, tongue, and nation, are the converts from the 144,000. And what’s interesting is that two chapters later, in chapter 9, it says that there’s a 200-million-man army. So, I take it that that number in chapter 7 has to be greater than 200 million. So it’s hundreds of millions of people in the first half of the Tribulation who are going to be saved through the preaching of these evangelists.
Now, as you said in the last program, many of them will then be killed, martyred. But you can sure see the world heading toward the mentality that is going to be there of globalism through that. And I talk in here about the divine institutions, and how the fifth divine institution – and I would recommend people get the book if they want to find out what I’m referring to here, is “nationalism.” God entrenched nationalism so He could pit nation against nation after the flood. And we explain all of this in the book.
And so, I think, for example, the American election that we just had was nationalism vs. globalism. And Donald Trump, for example, was advocating nationalism: Make American Great Again. And that’s why they hate his guts, because the whole world is so into globalism, which is what the Antichrist is going to use after the Rapture to bring everybody together. And so you see all of these kinds of things that fit into Bible prophecy.
So you have to know what’s happened in Genesis, where God lays down the purpose and goal of mankind, and you see it being fulfilled throughout biblical history, so we have charts that deal with all of those issues, and then we have about 20 percent of the charts dealing with the end, because God has prophesied. And so, we cover from Genesis to Revelation the entire chronology of how these things and when these things are going to occur.
Tom: Yeah, Tommy, now, as I’ve been listening to you present this – now, as I mentioned, the book’s about 150 pages; I would say maybe a third of that are charts, so in terms of the words on pages, it’s smaller than 150 pages. Now, I can just see in my head young people listening to you, what you laid out, saying, “I didn’t know that. Wow! I didn’t know that. No! I didn’t know that.” But all you’re doing – some of the things you’re extrapolating, but on the other hand, let’s take the mathematics that’s here. Tommy, I’m sorry, but I’m mathematically challenged. But you just laid out arithmetic, okay? This is not higher math here! And, let me talk about that just for a minute or so, and, again, it’s why I love your book: you see, when you put the timeline…when you lay it out, and just to simplify – and you didn’t make it complex, but – to simplify: “What was the average age prior to the flood?” It was almost 1,000 years, right? Nine-hundred…
Tommy: Nine-hundred-thirty years, yes.
Tom: Okay, so, just following your timeline, we see that at the Flood these eight people who come out of an environment in which they lived for close to 1,000 years, now their lives overlap those after the Flood. So what’s the value of that? You know, we have a book that deals with mankind being smarter then than they are now, okay? And the examples that are given – this is Don Chittick, whom I’ve had on the program, who is now with the Lord. But it has to do with ancient man. Tommy, as you know, we can’t figure out what they were able to do back then. We still can’t do it. So, my point being is that…
Tommy: That’s right.
Tom: …that overlap now shows us: Where did some of these maps come from? There’s an artifact from an engraving on ivory from – I think it’s the British Museum of Natural History, or one of the museums there – and they took an electron microscope and looked at just the dot of this engraving on this piece of ivory, and, Tommy, it had a whole thesis within the dot!
Tom: Now, go figure that! So, in his book he gives those things. Well, Tommy, your book gives us an insight as to how this information – the ability – well, what did God say back in Genesis: “Now whatever they desire to do they’ll be able to do” (I’m paraphrasing there). But the point is that this book – and many, many other things about it, lay things out very simply. And God bless you and Ed for doing this, Tommy! And I – we at The Berean Call, we’re going to make this book available, and we want to get it on every coffee table…but, honestly, we want to get it to the young people, who are not given to reading. But hopefully your book will work as an encouragement to get deeper into the Scriptures. You lay it out simply, but here’s what the Word of God says, and we want them into the Word, the B-I-B-L-E. That’s the book… remember when I was at your conference…
Tommy: Yeah, we broke in singing that!
Tom: You broke into song about that! But honestly, isn’t that the case? Isn’t that what we want?
Tommy: Yes, in fact, there’s a review about our book on Amazon – it’s the only one – this person gives a very in-depth critique of our book, and he overall really likes it, but it’s not a totally positive review. But he says this; listen to this: “Of all the books I’ve read on the subject of Bible chronology over the years, I must say this book is the most concise and visually pleasing of them all. I really like the way the authors provided just enough written information in most cases to lay out their point of view without overwhelming the reader with chronological details and endless calculations. I felt there was just enough of an overview that it led naturally into a perusal of the charts.” So, that’s exactly what we wanted to do.
Tommy: And this guy – I have no idea who he is – summarized what we had hoped to do very well.
Tom: Well, Tommy, let me add some more to this, in terms of what I really got out of the book, the value of it. Just when you’re dealing with the flood – all the information that you give: how many days Noah and the family are in there, and so on, I mean, you read through that, and anybody that comes away and thinks that, “Oh, wait a minute. They don’t understand. It was a local flood. The animals certainly could have gone to higher and drier places,” and so on…
Tom: Tommy, now why does that upset me? Because now we see people like Hugh Ross and others – theistic evolutionists so-called – are perverting or destroying the truth of Scripture with their pseudo-scientific ideas and theories.
Tommy: Yeah, they’re trying to fit the Bible into evolutionary science, and it won’t fit. There’s a head-on collision. And you have to realize, there’s a head-on collision. It’s one or the other. The Bible does not buy into uniformitarian assumptions, which is what evolution requires. In fact, 2 Peter 3, critical of the uniformitarian thing when it says, “For ever since the fathers have fallen asleep all things continue as they were from the beginning.” And it says, “This they are ignorant of…” He talks about creation, he talks about the flood, and then he talks about the Second Coming! In other words, God has already interjected Himself in six days in creation, and now He is preserving creation after the six days of creation, so the present processes do not enable one to extrapolate backwards to come up with how old things are or anything like that.
Secondly, the global flood: that was said to be a catastrophic event. That’s the Greek word used in 2 Peter 3; we get our English word from that Greek word. He destroyed the old world, and he remade it, and he cursed man. And we show the deterioration of man’s longevity from an average of 930 years to an average of 70-80 years. And a friend of mine, an MIT graduate, who was also a Dallas grad, showed that the change is exponential. Now why is that significant? We have a chart explaining all of this. In other words, when you go from one equilibrium, that is, the pre-flood ages, to another equilibrium, when it settles down into 70, then, years post-flood, it changes exponentially. And this is charted out and explained in our book, showing that this is real data. These show real data involved. And another interesting thing, I think, is that this same person observed that you have ten descendants die in one generation, and this is during that time of transition. And so you had…just think of that! You had people from ten generations alive at the same time, and then they die in one generation as things are shifting after the flood. That’s pretty amazing. Can you imagine talking to people from ten generations today? No, you can’t! But the Bible talks about this.
Then, why is that important? Because in the future, we’re going to live to be 1,000 years if you’re a mortal when you go into the Kingdom. Because God’s going to come in and remove the curse and Jesus personally is going to reign and rule. You’re not going to get to vote for Jesus. He’s going to be a dictator. And I thank God.
Tom: Yes. Amen!
Tommy: And the fact of the matter is, that is going to fulfill all of these social and cultural issues, and He’s going to show how it is. That’s why this current age is not the kingdom, because you have to have resurrected man, and you have to have a removal of the curse. Although death will still be there.
Tom: Tommy, I want to go back to that, because in our first session you were describing your debate with a post-millennialist, and so on. But as I mentioned, we have a view of eschatology, whether it be the Kingdom-Now, which is primarily charismatic, Pentecostal – not all of them, but many who buy into this are looking to the New Apostolic Reformation, the New Apostles and Prophets. But there are others who would say, “No, we’re not a part of that,” and I’m thinking about people like Rick Warren and his Global P.E.A.C.E. Plan. I mean, he’s got a concept of working, sadly – talk about ecumenism – working with other religions to fix the problems of the world: poverty and illness and illiteracy. And he also says, “spiritual emptiness.” Now, how do you work with Hindus and Muslims and all of that and erase spiritual emptiness? I mean, that’s a problem.
But, Tommy, here’s something that’s your expertise: Within the Reformed movement, for example, you have Christian Reconstructionism, which you were a part of and then wrote a book against that.
Tom: The Coalition on Revival, Theonomists, and so on, who are, as you pointed out in our first session, they’re trying to make the world better. But it’s not going to come till the King returns, right?
Tommy: That’s correct, and they say, “Well, then you believe the gospel’s failed,” and all that. No. The gospel hasn’t failed. The purpose of the gospel was to save man and qualify him for the future, you know, the future kingdom. But just as Christ’s personal career, if you want to look at it that way, has two stages – His humiliation phase, in which He successfully qualified as the Second Adam to reign and rule, and He has ascended above all rule and authority, as Colossians says, and He is now at the right hand of God; but He says in Revelation:3:21 that one day He is going to ascend His throne, David’s throne, in Jerusalem, and we are going to be seated at His right hand as the Bride and the Church. And that requires resurrected people with the curse removed.
And so, He’s going to come in glory and He’s got to judge. The world’s going to be in total chaos and rebellion against God. At Armageddon, the armies of the world are coming to wipe out the Jews as they blame God’s chosen people for all the problems. And the Jews become converted, they call on Him. He returns, and the church that was raptured returns with Him, as Revelation 19 describes. And we are going to reign and rule with Him.
And then you go into – those who survive the seven-year Tribulation are going into the Millennium in their mortal bodies, and they will continue to have children and live in this paradise, basically – Paradise restored, as God comes in and renews the curse apart from death, and shows people how it should have unfolded had Adam and Eve not sinned. He’s the Second Adam. He is a human being. And He is flawless. And we need Him returning to Planet Earth, whereas the post-millennialists say that we don’t have confidence in the gospel. Yes, we do! The gospel – and this an elective age where believers are being called out through the preaching of the gospel, and we are promised six or seven times in the New Testament that we are going to reign and rule with Him at that future time. But we’re not doing it now, and that is a – as you’ve been saying in both programs – that is a huge mistake; a huge misreading of the Bible. And you can’t be taking the Bible literally, meaning, What does the author intend to say? That’s literal interpretation, authorial intent. Instead, people bring in things, red herrings, like “Well, what would it have meant to people back 2,000 years ago?” I don’t know, but you have a lot of examples of people misunderstanding Jesus 2,000 years ago. It’s what did the author mean by what he said? That’s the point of literal interpretation, and it produces something like we charted out in our book.
Tom: Tommy, we’ve just got a few minutes left here. I just want to cover some issues. This book is absolutely tremendous. You and Ed Hindson did an absolutely terrific job. Now, some of the stuff – your encouragement, I know, because I know you, is to be Bereans. Some people may not agree with some of the things that they read here, but the point is that you’ve laid it out very simply, and then we’re asking people, “Okay, here’s what they say…” Now, I’m giving amen and amen to just about everything in the book, okay? Yet, you still want me to be a Berean and check out what you say as whether it’s our pastor or whoever it might be, we need to…what we believe – as we’re going to be personally accountable for it, so I know that’s both yours [and Ed’s] heart in it, but I can’t tell you – and I’ve told you this, Tommy, and I want our listeners to know, if you’ve been listening to this and say, “Oh, I didn’t know that,” or “That’s really fascinating,” or if you have young people who don’t know, don’t understand, eschatology, the chronology of the Bible, you need to get this book for them. Or leave it on your coffee table for people that come around. You say, “Yeah, it talks about the Bible….” I mean, it’s an absolutely attractive book, and it has content that’s terrific, but best of all, as I said, it’s a summary, it’s a synopsis, it is …God’s plan, made clear from beginning to end, and we want to encourage people to that end.
I don’t know what better thing for this day and this age in a day of when they will not endure sound doctrine to encourage people to get back to the Word of God.
Now, Tommy, we’ve got about thirty seconds here. Would you agree?
Tommy: Well, certainly. And that…if people read this book, they might find things that, as you said, they disagree with, but then they go to Scripture and check it out and see if that’s what the Bible says.
Tom: My guest has been Tommy Ice, executive director of the Pre-Trib conference and the newsletter, and so on, but, again, upholding, in my word, “Maranatha, Maranatha, Maranatha!” And if you don’t know that term, you need to check it out, but it means “Come, Lord, come quickly!” And that’s our heart isn’t it, Tommy?
Tommy: It sure is.
Tom: So, thanks for being with us.
Tommy: Thank you!
Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7 with T. A. McMahon, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter, contact us at PO Box 7019, Bend, Oregon 97708. Call us at 800.937.6638. Or visit our website at the bereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael; thanks for tuning in, and we hope you can be here again next week. Until then, we encourage you to Search the Scriptures 24/7.