Missions to Indigenous Peoples with Tom Watson (Part 1)

Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. We’re glad you could join us. In today’s program, Tom begins a two-part series with guest, pastor and author Tom Watson.  Here’s TBC executive director Tom McMahon.

Tom: Thanks, Gary. Today and next week, I have the privilege of talking to Tom Watson who’s the president of Bended Knee International, a missionary ministry that reaches out primarily to native people groups both near and far. By far I mean Siberia, and near would be the tribal peoples of the American Southwest. 

Tom, welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7.

Tom W: Well, Tom, it’s certainly a joy and privilege for me to join you today. Dave Hunt was a good friend…

Tom: Absolutely.

Tom W: …and I’m a longtime follower of your ministry and The Berean Call, so it’s just good for me to be here today.

Tom: Yeah, well, that swings both ways, Tom. We really appreciate what you’ve done and have done—you know, as you say, you’ve had a relationship with Dave and with me. We’ve had some functions when you were pastor down in Texas, and this was (…).

Anyway, what I’d like you to do, Tom, is give our listeners some background regarding how you first got involved in mission work to indigenous peoples.

Tom W: Well, I was called to the ministry at age 40, and so I left my secular work and graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary. I became a pastor in Texas for 20 years, but from day one of my salvation, I had a real heart for evangelism, and still do. I didn’t want to spend all my time behind the pulpit and in the church, and I did want to do the work of an evangelist. So in 1987, I began going to the Navajo reservation every opportunity that I had both in Arizona and New Mexico, and I’ve been doing so now for nearly 30 years. 

So in 2002 I left the pastorate, and that’s when we formed Bended Knee International as a mission organization, and we wanted to do that to continue the mission work among the Native Americans, but the Lord had also opened the door in Russia and in Central Siberia among the tribal and indigenous people there. So since 2003, I’ve gone to Russia 30 times, gone into hundreds of schools, shared the gospel, given away Russian Bibles, and planted three churches in the Republic of Tuva north of Mongolia. So it’s kind of been a gradual thing, getting more and more involved, it seems, year by year.

Tom: Wow. Tom, in your experience (as you mentioned starting off with the native tribes of Southwest America here in this country), between the tribes, are there unique differences, cultural differences between, let’s say—now, so I pronounce this right…certainly Navajo, but is it the Hopi Indians?

Tom W: Hopi.

Tom: Hopi, okay. I knew…

Tom W: Yeah, I’ve worked with the Hopi and the Apache and the Navajo primarily, and more so than any other the Navajo. But you know, as far as differences, they’re all traditionally…they worship the creation: Father Sky, Mother Earth, and much more. For the most part they’re a matriarch society. The Navajos maybe show that more than the others, and their social order’s clans—they’re very clannish, to the point if you have a church made up of one clan, people of another clan won’t even come to it just because they’re so close to each other when it comes to clans. But all of them have the epidemic of government dependency and unemployment, alcoholism, domestic abuse, go on and on…I think just last year I read that the suicide rate among teens on the reservations was the highest in the nation, so they all seem to have those common things. Not a lot of differences, I don’t think. 

But the difference between them and the rest of America is not all that great. You know, we’re in a modern age, and they all have computers, access to the internet, televisions, cell phones—they’re all exposed to the world, so I describe them just like I describe the majority of Americans: that the world’s just more important to them than the things of God by and large.

Tom: Tom, when you started, or even today, do you find any difficulties with regard to you not being Native American?

Tom W: Well, it takes many, many years to build trust among the Native Americans, and I understand why, both from governmental reasons to things that happened among missionaries and much more. And I would say it took me 10 years to really build trust among Native American pastors and leaders, and it just takes a long time. And once you get their trust, and I think you have to get it by one, showing them that you’re there—really, that you’re concerned about their spiritual condition and the people; and two, you have to do what you say. You just have to keep your word, because that’s…if you don’t, the trust isn’t there.

Tom: Right. Without the fruit of the Spirit, it’s really—at least it’s works, and it’s not works that people can respond to. I can understand that.

Tom W: I remember just a few years ago I went into a Navajo church. The Navajo pastor was preaching, and I was just sitting there. I was the only white person there. In the middle of his sermon, he said, “My mother taught me never to trust a white man, never trust a white man.” And he said, “I never trust a white man.” Then he looked down at me and he pointed his finger at me, and he said, “Except that one.” So I knew I was in at that point!

Tom: Yeah, well…

Tom W: It takes some time, and I understand why they’re so reluctant.

Tom: Of course! And even in our own lives—you know, those of us that have children, and so on—look, we’d all say we love our kids to pieces, but sometimes we can’t trust them. So trust is something that has to be earned, and obviously we do it with prayer and trying to reflect the Lord’s light and life in our own lives. But trust is a bit different.

Tom W: Right.

Tom: You know, you mentioned that obviously in this day, no matter what the indigenous tribe is in this country, they have all the technology. They have computers and cell phones and everything, so there are those influences. 

But, Tom, from a spiritual standpoint—and we’re going to talk about this a little later; we’re going to talk about shamanism—but I’d like to get to some religious practices or beliefs within any of these tribes. Would you say that Roman Catholicism has been an influence?

Tom W: Well, yes, it definitely has. I would say Mormonism’s probably been a greater influence. You know, the Mormons convinced a lot of Native Americans that they were descendants of the Israelites, and this was the new Promised Land, and finally DNA testing proved that they came from Siberia and not from Israel, so there was even a change in the Book of Mormon as a result of that. But Mormonism is certainly an issue there. 

But, you know, there’s a strong push by the leaders—as they call them, their elders—to cling to the traditional religion and worship creation, and they’ve had over 500 years of white men missions. Results aren’t all that good. About 60 years ago, they would have said, for example, the Navajos, about 20 percent of them, would claim to be Christian, and now it’s down to around 7 percent. So there’s been strong efforts by the Mormon church, the Roman Catholic Church, more recent years the health and wealth gospel, the rise of the Native American church itself… 

But one thing that’s interesting that a lot of people may not realize and may be surprised by this is that they’re really over-proselytized. Group after group, church after church, mission after mission has been out there and thrown the gospel out. And I remember on my first trip there in 1987, I stopped [while] coming into the reservation to get a bite to eat. And when I came out, a Navajo man was approaching me, and I was excited, because I thought, “Well, this is my first chance to share the gospel!” And when he got close, I realized he was under the influence of alcohol, but I thought, Well, I’ll share with him anyway. And I hardly got started and he stopped me, and he quoted John:3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
See All... word for word. I’ve often said I’ve never found a Navajo who couldn’t quote John:3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
See All...; they all know it. And as a result of that, you know, we had to kind of change the emphasis of our ministry, because everybody knows the gospel, but not everybody knows Christ. That’s the difference.

Tom: Right.

Tom W: And not much evidence of people walking with Christ, so we felt that was a pastoral leadership problem, so we changed gears and really began to work with the pastors and leaders.

Tom: Mm-hmm. You know, Tom, one of the reasons I asked that question is because, you know, if somebody has or believes that they have an understanding of Christianity, but it’s based on the gospel according to Rome or something like that, certainly distinctions have to be made. We know even among Jews today—this seems a little off to the side—but many of them recognize…or in their own minds, they recognize Christianity as basically Roman Catholicism, so that they carry that objection, which we know is not true.

But I want to go back to Mormonism just for a quick second. How do they deal with the teaching among Mormons of—I’m sure you’re aware of this—that way back when, the Mormons would bring indigenous people into their families and try and get them to change their color. It was called “becoming white and delightsome through the righteousness of Mormonism.” Have they ever responded to that?

Tom W: Well, I’ve never had anyone, really, Native American say anything to me about that. What I have found is that—and not so much in Mormonism, if we go back to the Roman Catholic Church here—on the reservation they’re synchronizing the Native American religion with the practices of the Roman Catholic Church. I don’t know if that’s happening in Mormonism or not; I’m not aware if it is, but I know it definitely is in the Roman Catholic Church. And, you know, you can go to the Roman Catholic Church as a Native American and practice your chants, your dances, creation worship, and it’s all blended in with the Roman Catholic ritual. And what they don’t see, whether it’s Mormonism or Roman Catholic Church, they don’t see the distinct differences between that and biblical truth, and it’s not just the difference between Mormonism, the Roman Catholic Church, and biblical truth, it’s the difference between heaven and hell. It’s about as serious as it could be, but they don’t say—often a Native American will say to me, “Well, why can’t we have both? Why can’t we have your religion and ours? Why can’t we put them together?” Well, they just won’t go together.

Tom: No, they’re diametrically opposed to one another. And going back to Roman Catholicism, what you’ve just described has been the way that Roman Catholicism has spread throughout the world: they see what the belief system is, and then they syncretize, they bring in beliefs that seem to conform. You’ve probably heard the statement or at least the saying that those in Haiti are—they’re 85 percent Roman Catholic, but they’re 100 percent Vodoun, or Voodoo, and that has been the way they’ve gone about it. And what’s amazing today—I don’t want to get off track here—but we see that now influencing evangelical Christianity.

Tom W: Very much so.

Tom: Yeah, so because the church now has, since Vatican II, become more “evangelical,” and with a lack of discernment, it’s easy to say, “Oh, yeah, well, they love Jesus.” But it’s not the biblical Jesus.

Tom, what are the differences between—you minister to people in Siberia, and as I said, we’re going to talk about this more as we go on. But in Siberia, what would be some differences between ministering there, and then ministering among the Navajos?

Tom W: Yeah, well, you know, they’re both tribal and indigenous people, so you’re going to expect a lot of similarities, which I’ve already mentioned, you know, like some of the poorest areas in the United States are the reservations. We were in the Republic of Tuva 10 years, and it’s called the welfare state of Russia, the poorest district in the former Soviet Union. So a lot of unemployment and all those things that go with it. 

About five years ago, I took a Navajo pastor with me to Siberia. It was amazing, because he felt right at home. He said, “This is just like being at home!” The traditional home was just like his Navajo hogan. They were shepherds, and he was a shepherd boy. He even was picking up on the language, which I couldn’t pick up on at all, the Tuvian language. It was just amazing how similar those things were. But there were a lot of differences, too. 

Now, in Tuva—now, this is right north of Mongolia, became part of the Soviet Union during World War II—but Dalai Lama’s been there two or three times, and what they’ve done, they’ve synchronized Buddhism with shamanism, which is like what we talked about Roman Catholic and Native Americans. I mean, this type of thing is just going on all over the world. Now, the Buddhists, no doubt, are the stronger of the two, but that’s what’s happened there. 

Now, I would just say this as far as a difference: I think Native Americans are far more superstitious than Siberians. You know, Native Americans can still have a real hangup with being around something dead, or if a coyote crosses a road in front of them, you know, it’s kind of like worse than a black cat, that type of thing.

Tom: Mm-hmm.

Tom W: It was interesting, because the Navajo pastor went with me. We had a day in Moscow, and I said, “Well, what do you want to do? We’ve got a day here before we’re going to fly on to catch our flight into Siberia.” And he didn’t know. I said, “Well, you want to go down to Red Square and down to Kremlin?” 

And he said, “Oh, yeah, I’d like to do that!” So I took him down there, and it happened to be one of the days when Lenin’s tomb was open, and so I said, “You want to go in and see Mr. Lenin?” I said, “It’ll prove to you one thing: that Lenin is dead and Jesus is alive!” And he was so reluctant because of his background, you know. He’s still superstitious, even as a Christian. You know, he really struggled with the idea of entering into the presence of something that was dead. So they’re probably more superstitious than the Siberians.

Tom: Yeah…

Tom W: But…oh, another difference is Siberians don’t live very long. The average life expectancy of a male in Siberia is 55, so…you know, the harsh conditions, alcoholism, immorality, the failure of socialized medicine—they just don’t live very long over there. You’ll find more older Native Americans than you will Siberians.

Tom: Wow. Tom, I know you’re aware of this, but when Dave Hunt and I wrote the book America, the Sorcerer’s New Apprentice, it was through that book that we pointed to the term “shamanism” and how it came from the Tungus peoples of Siberia, which, as you mentioned, is located primarily in Eastern Siberia. And for those not informed, a shaman is also referred to as a medicine man, a witch doctor, or sorcerer. But what’s interesting about the practice of shamanism—and you’ve more than alluded to it, as you’ve been talking, Tom—the practice is very similar among widely separated tribes throughout the world, from those along the equator, the heat of the equator, to those in the frigid north where you’ve been. So, Tom, does that check with your experience?

Tom W: Well, yes. In fact, I made three trips into Guyana, South America, among the Amerindians there, and found the same thing I find in Siberia or on the Navajo reservation. You know, here it’s a medicine man, there’s it a shaman, but that’s about the only difference, you know. These are their spiritual leaders they go to for advice, spiritual advice, health, blessings, and so on. 

Interesting to me, because one day we’re traveling down a remote road in Siberia in a car, and I looked up on a high place—we were in a mountainous area way up high—and I could see something up there looked like stones stacked up, and looked like poles with flags. I couldn’t tell it what it was; I took my camera and zoomed it in, took a picture, and drew it in, and I showed it to the two Siberians that were with me. They said, “Well, we think that’s a shaman altar.” And they said, “You want to go up there?”

I said, “Sure. I’d like to go up there.” So we parked the car and hiked all the way up there, and here was the altar. They built a fire, they left Russian rubles there as gifts or sacrifices to the spirits, and then they knew exactly what went on up there. They said what they do is they build a fire, they get high on drugs and vodka, they hallucinate, then they worship the spirits and make sacrifices to the spirits. Well, that’s no different, not any difference, between that and the Native American religion with the use of peyote.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom W: It’s exactly the same thing. It’s shamanism over there, it’s Native American religion here, but it’s exactly the same thing.

Tom: Right. And…

Tom W: You know what’s interesting is this takes place in the high places, and if you go back in the Old Testament, the kings did evil in the sight of God; the kings of Israel were those who made sacrifices and worshipped the spirits in the high places. For example, 2 Kings 16, two or three examples of that in that chapter alone. Still going on in the world today.

Tom: Right. And of course, the use of drugs—the Scripture talks about sorcery, the Greek being pharmakeia—you know, pharmacy, drugs. And as you’ve experienced, Tom, in terms of seeing what they’re doing, why—whether it be through alcohol, whether it be through peyote—now among my generation, the hippie generation, now psilocybin’s coming back, the sacred mushroom. 

But the point of all that, folks, is that to commune with the spirits, shamans need to get into an altered state of consciousness so they can interact, communicate with the spirits, and that’s their job: to be the mediator between the spirits. Of course, we’re talking about demons here, and the people, and let the spirits guide and direct.

But, Tom, what does it tell you seeing these disconnected people groups throughout the world, as we’ve mentioned, and yet the practice is common? What does that tell you [about] the source behind shamanism?

Tom W: Well, we know Satan’s the god of this world, and blinded the minds of those who “believeth not.” You can take any truly born-again Native American or Siberian, and they will no longer have anything to do with shamanism, or the medicine man, or the Native American pow wows, or the Native American native dances, and every one of them will tell you it’s demonic—every one of them. 

I once said to a Native American pastor—we were at a fair doing evangelism, and they were doing a pow wow over there, and I said, “You know, I’m curious. I kind of want to go over there and see what’s going on.”

And he said, “Well, I’m not going with you.” You know, he just wouldn’t have anything to do with it. He said, “That’s demonic.”

Tom: But isn’t it interesting also—you know, we’re talking about indigenous peoples, but when the New Age movement came up, and they started looking to the experiences of the shamans and now working it into the white man’s culture, but through a New Age mentality, you had things like spirit quest, or animals, going on these spirit walks, trying to find your spirit guide—in many cases was an animal. But you also had spirit huts. Do you see that as continuing to grow?

Tom W: Oh, I think so. I think…you know, it amazes me how many people of white European descent are now adopting the Native American lifestyle. Instead of converting Native Americans to Christianity, we’re getting people who are going the other direction. And it has all to do with nature, creation in the spirit world.

Tom: Yeah. Tom, we’re about out of time for this segment, but that’s what I want to talk about next week, the Lord willing, what we’re up against—to say, “Hey, wait a minute, this is problematic,” especially when we have anthropologists saying that we’re messing with the “purity,” the culture of a tribe, as though that was not only unique but something to glorify, which we know it’s not. So, again, the Lord willing…

So, Tom, it’s not just a matter of having to deal with a religious system, as we mentioned before, whether it be Mormonism or Roman Catholicism in terms of its influence on Native Americans, but also academia with their anthropologists, okay? Have you seen any problems that way with regard to what you’re doing?

Tom W: Well, you know, the Native Americans, for example, have their sacred mountains like Shiprock and Spider Rock. You go to Siberia, the same thing. They have their mountains sacred; they call them by name. In fact, in Siberia, traditionally the toes of the boots were curled upward so they wouldn’t scuff the sacred ground. But of course, today it’s expected to have people who oppose missions to, for example, creation worshippers, because of this extreme environmentalism and global warming. For many it’s a religion all of itself. It’s politically correct, and it’s highly promoted by the media. So opposition to anything that affects nature, the earth, creation is going to be opposed. And in my opinion, we’re going back to Romans 1 where we’re worshipping the creation rather than the Creator, and “professing to be wise, we were becoming fools.” So I think that’s only going to grow—with the politically correct climates here in the United States, that’s only going to grow here.

Tom: Right. My guest has been Tom Watson. He’s the president of Bended Knee International, a missionary ministry that reaches out to—well, primarily native people groups both near and far, as I mentioned before.

So, Tom, thanks for being with us in this segment, and I look forward to our continued discussion, the Lord willing, next week.

Tom W: Thank you, Tom.

Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7 featuring T.A. McMahon, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter, contact us at PO Box 7019 Bend, Oregon 97708. Call us at 800-937-6638, or visit our website at thebereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael. We’re glad you could tune in, and we hope you can join us again next time. Until then, we encourage you to Search the Scriptures 24/7.