Tom: Today we’re following up on our discussion of UFOs, and for those who missed last week’s program, here are some of the points we tried to make: we established that all intelligent life forms must be the product of God’s creation, and that conclusion is based upon logic, probability, true science, and the Bible. All physical beings must be confined to the earth because all creation is under the curse of and effect of sin. And salvation is only found through the redemption of Jesus Christ, which took place only once and exclusively on this planet. In other words, the Bible opposes the speculation that there are physical beings visiting this planet from planets across our galaxy or from other galaxies. Given the extraordinary distances and time involved, such travel or communication by extraterrestrial beings is physically impossible. Nevertheless, we believe that some of the UFO phenomenon is genuine. That is, it’s not something that can simply be written off as a delusion. Although the phenomenon is real, to some extent, it’s not what it pretends to be. That is, UFOs give the impression of being physical vehicles of extraterrestrial space travelers, yet all the evidence points to their being nonphysical entities.
Now, Dave, based upon what we’ve said, there seems to be only three possibilities for explaining what’s behind the UFO phenomenon: God, angels, or humanity. So, which is it, and what makes you think so?
Dave: Well, if you – by angels, you’re going to have to include evil angels. I presume that’s what you mean. Demons. Satan.
Tom: Well, but some believe that…I remember Billy Graham saying a number of years ago that he felt that maybe some of this phenomenon had to do with not fallen angels, necessarily, but also…
Dave: I – you know, you could go to Ezekiel; you could look at some of the scriptures about the wheel within a wheel, and Daniel and some of the amazing things…but I don’t think that fits the UFO, Tom. I think the UFOs are evil. I think they are setting us up – not us; I’m not going to be here, God willing. I believe the Rapture’s going to take place before the whole UFO thing explodes into the great delusion if that’s going to be part of it, which it very well could be. Abducting people, supposedly examining them, you know, and the occult involvement – I mean, you have even…I can’t remember the book now, Tom, it’s so long ago since I’ve even thought of this – but the librarian at the Library of Congress, it seems to me, put together some documentation indicating that those people who are involved in appearances, or who have seen UFOs, or who have supposedly been taken aboard them, they develop symptoms which are identical to those people who have been involved in occultism. And, in fact, they even call it this.
So for that reason, I’m not limiting what angels could do, and the appearances that they might make. But the only appearances that I know of angels, they came – you know, in that form, they either appeared as men to Abraham in the Old Testament, or the angel Gabriel comes to Mary, and so forth. So, I just – somehow, I don’t connect UFO phenomena with good angels but with the bad ones.
Tom: Well, also, there is in this form of communication, the content of that communication tends to be very anti-biblical.
Tom: So, you would say if these were good angels, what they’re communicating, if it’s not according to the Scriptures, they’ve got some problems.
Dave: Yeah, they couldn’t be…
Tom: Well, what about the “Cosmic Gospel?” I mean, we’ve heard in the research that we’ve done, particularly with regard to the information that’s communicated by these so-called extraterrestrial beings, you know, as we said, it’s anti-gospel. It is a gospel in itself.
Dave: Well, we’ve talked about channeling in the past. Whether you’re on a drug trip or in yoga or under hypnosis, in a séance, there is a communication that comes through from some nonphysical dimension, from nonphysical beings – they’re intelligences. And it is the same everywhere, and it involves, as we’ve mentioned, the four lies of the serpent in the Garden of Eden with which he destroyed the human race – a pretty good indication of the source of this communication, and it’s very consistent. So the UFO entities (the space brothers, they’re sometimes called), they communicate exactly the same thing, so they fall into the same category. So that gives us a pretty good indication of who they are, as well.
Tom: Dave, some years ago I did a video (back then it was a film), but it had to do with contact with extraterrestrials. You know, it came out at the time that ET was a very popular movie. In the research that I did, some missionaries who were missionaries in New Guinea gave us some information about what was called then the Cargo Cult. You know, during the Second World War, the tribes of New Guinea would see our – the allied troops landing there, these silver birds, and bringing all kinds of material wealth, and when…
Dave: They were jettisoning their fuel tanks – the extra ones that they had under the wings of the P38. I remember it, Tom, I was there. This was coming down from the heavens, so…
Tom: That was part of it, but it was also that when these great silver birds would land, and then they left, they left a lot of their supplies. Now after they left, the tribes then set up airfields – I mean, they were mock airfields to bring these silver birds back. Now, the point I’m making here is that in the heart of man, there’s always been this attraction to some kind of “gods,” some kind of Messianic figure who would bring them prosperity, who would save them from themselves in some way, and the UFO phenomenon has really promoted that – or really undergirded that, to some degree.
Dave: Well, Jacques Vallée, I think we’ve referred to him – we must have in the previous program. Well, I remember you said that he was the real-life scientist from which [Lacombe], in Close Encounters of the Third Kind, was patterned after him. And he tells of one well-known contactee that he had been in touch with, who supposedly had been contacted by UFO beings, and so forth. And I’m quoting him: he says – he claimed that these aliens, these extraterrestrials “provided much data on the occult side. They claimed they had a lot to do with our religion. They spoke about witchcraft and cults.”
So here they were just blatantly talking about this. Rather interesting.
Tom: Now, Dave, you’ve also pointed out in some of your other books that the manifestation of UFOs is incredibly similar to the kind of phenomena you find in haunted houses, poltergeist effects – so, again, here is another connection.
Dave: Lest people get upset at me, as they often do, let me just turn this back on Jacques Vallée in one of his books, Messengers of Deception. He says they’re very much like apparitions of Mary and so-called apparitions of Jesus, who very seldom appears – only in the company of Mary, actually, to Catholics. And they fit the UFO phenomenon exactly, in the effect that they have upon those who see them, and in the way they come and go, and in what they communicate.
For example, Our Lady of Medjugorje said on one occasion, “All religions are the same.” Well, that’s not the Bible. That’s not God speaking, that’s not angels speaking. That’s the serpent in the Garden. Our Lady of Fatima said, “Many souls perish because there’s no one to make sacrifice for them.” Actually, “perish and go to hell because there’s no one to make sacrifice for them.”
Well, I thought Jesus made the sacrifice. And then this Mary said, “I will assist you with all the graces necessary for salvation at the hour of death.” Well, we don’t need that assistance from anyone because Christ has provided all that we need and complete redemption.
So these apparitions also communicate some of the same lies that come through the UFOs and other communications.
Tom: Dave, what I hear you saying, and what you’re pointing out here is that discernment here best comes from looking at the content of what these communications provide. For example, we could say that, yes, they’re apparitions, and the phenomena seem very occultic. But apparitions themselves – there are visitations in the Bible. There are angels appearing to men, and so on. But it’s the content of what they have to say: is it biblical or is it not biblical? That gives us the ability to discern whether it’s of God or not of God.
Dave: We have another occult connection, Tom, and that is that there are those that go into an altered state of consciousness – actually, they have been taught how to do this in order to accomplish what is called “remote viewing.” And again, I can’t remember…I don’t think we’ve talked about that.
Tom: Not in any great detail.
Dave: Well, some of our military have been trained in remote viewing. And that is the ability to see what is happening halfway around the world or wherever – to probe the Soviet Union, in those days. The CIA, the KGB were using this. Some of our remote viewers have actually probed Iraq to find out where Saddam is hiding some of these things. Now that’s an occult technique. We don’t have those abilities, and they go into an altered state of consciousness, and then they begin to – they’re supposedly out of their bodies; they can see things, and so forth. And there are those who have remote viewed, for example…let me give you one: Professor Courtney Brown – he goes into an altered state of consciousness, and he views…why, he could even see where they’re living underground on Mars, and the insignia of their uniforms…
Tom: So he’s viewing these extraterrestrials, or that’s what he believes.
Dave: Well, let me quote him: “I have personally remote viewed an insignia on the uniform of an ET. I have had extensive…”
Tom: ET – an extraterrestrial.
Dave: Right. “I have had extensive experience with a variety of extraterrestrials. Most of this contact has been through remote viewing.” Now, in remote viewing, you’re in an altered state of consciousness, and I wouldn’t trust what goes on. But he claims to have contacted Jesus, God, and he says, “God is still evolving,” and Buddha. And he says, “Buddha sits on the Federation Council that helps monitor the affairs of humans on earth. To this day, he watches over us.”
So God and Jesus have been lowered to Buddha’s level. In fact, it sounds like he’s kind of monitoring this whole thing. So when you finally get down to it, the whole UFO phenomenon is intended to undermine what the Bible teaches: We’re not created by God, but some extraterrestrials put us here. We’re not accountable to God. Christ did not redeem us, but we’re accountable to them. They’re monitoring our progress, and if we don’t live up to their standards, they will discipline us, and so forth. Ultimate goal for man is not heaven or hell, but it’s to continue our evolution.
And, I don’t know, did we quote Jimmy Carter last week?
Tom: Yeah, we did. But before you get to that, this guy, who’s remote viewing Jesus and Buddha, Dave, 20-30 years ago, he’d be in a padded cell somewhere! But this is a man with credentials. What I’m getting at here is there’s a conditioning…
Dave: Well, he has a Ph.D. and he’s very highly regarded.
Tom: Of course. And the conditioning that seems to be taking place here is now you have individuals who are highly regarded, and are not only promoting these things but are explaining what they’re going through, and that creates converts to this idea.
Dave: And a major publisher, Dutton-Penguin, Penguin Books, publishes it. So it’s being taken rather seriously.
Tom: Dave, I want to come back to a point that we’ve been making in other programs, and that is all of this is really a conditioning. Now, you talked about Jacques Vallée and his book Messengers of Deception – that’s what he says, that there’s a conditioning going on.
Now, to show you that this isn’t a condition (or this is a conditioning that’s been taking place for a long time, you know), the UFO “flaps,” as they call them, historically, they’ve been going on – not just…I mean, now we’re in the year 2000. Not only in the 20th century but in the 19th century – in the late 1800s there were UFO flaps. And what’s interesting about them, in some cases, the San Francisco newspapers of the late 1890s, they have engravings that show what these UFOs were like back then. And the interesting thing about it is that it takes the latest technology – for thenm it was airships or Zeppelins or…they weren’t called that then, but basically dirigibles, and they had incredible propellers on them, and they had incredible searchlights that came out of them. So they were a little more advanced of the technology of the day, but these were hardly extraterrestrial vehicles. So what were they?
Dave: Right. Before that – a few decades before that, before they even had airships, it was ships: sailing vessels that are now sailing in the sky. You have reports in Mormon literature of some of the Mormons…now Mormons have supposedly – they have “appearances” in some of their temples, and even some of the founders of our country have “appeared” in Mormon temples. So now we’re talking about discarnate beings of the dead, their souls and spirits coming back and appearing. But there are accounts of Mormons seeing…like, a sailing vessel, sailing by in the sky, and some of their dead relatives leaning over the railing, waving at them, and they even recognized them.
Now, on one hand, you could say this is total fantasy. On the other hand, you get too many reports of this. Something is happening. You’re saying, “What is happening?” Well, it certainly is not from God. It must be demonic. If Satan could get a serpent to talk to Eve, and he can transform himself into an angel of light, there are certain capabilities which he has that I don’t understand. But when Satan, who comes from another dimension – a non-physical dimension – invades the physical dimension, he can pull things off that look like miracles to us, but they’re not; but they’re beyond the capability of our materialistic science to comprehend, and these apparitions are – they have a purpose, and that is to take us away from the simple gospel of the Scriptures; take us away from the relationship God wants to have with us and get us involved in something else…
Tom: And create a false hope, a false Messiah, a false savior or saviors who are going to save us from ourselves. That’s part of their cosmic gospel.
Dave: Now, you have all…Tom, I guess we’re running out of time, but there’s a relationship to all kinds of other things. You have the clinical death experience – people that go through a tunnel, and they come out in the bright light, and they’re not judged at all, they just find love and acceptance no matter what they’ve done. So a Hitler doesn’t fare any worse than a Mother Teresa, you know, and in the afterlife we just go on and continue to learn our lessons. Of course, that’s one of the serpent’s lies: there is no death. And these people that come back, they don’t…didn’t want to come back! It was so beautiful over there. They come back with the message: “There’s nothing to fear in death.”
Tom: There’s no judgment.
Dave: Right. “You won’t surely die. You don’t really die.” That’s what the serpent told Eve. Then you can duplicate this sort of thing under hypnosis. So there is a whole genre of experiences that come in a number of different ways, but the common denominator of them all is you’re in an altered state of consciousness. You’ve lost contact.
Now, not totally, because, you know, I mean, one of our good friends from years gone by, Billy Squires, who was one of the founders of Spiritual Counterfeits Project – I remember him telling of this incredible vehicle that he saw floating right in the air, not far from him, larger than a 747. So he was not in an occult state, an altered state, and yet somehow it managed to impose itself upon his consciousness. And he’s a Christian, and he had a friend who also is Christian, and then his little boy about 12 years old. And they’re poking one another: “Tell me, what do you see?” “What do you…?” So somehow, they can make these things appear to people. Well, Satan was able to take Jesus up on a mountain, wasn’t he?
Tom: Sure. The magicians in the court of Pharaoh were able to manifest seemingly miraculous events.
Dave: Right. So it’s not something we want to look for. It’s something that people get excited about when it appears – then they think, “This is magic, or this must be God.” And that draws them in instead of rebuking this in the name of Jesus and commanding it to leave, and it will leave. These things will leave! But it’s something that people want to…it’s exciting, makes good books, makes good movies, and now, if I can just somehow get drawn into this, and I can develop this, and so forth, that is the temptation from these apparitions.
Tom: And the temptation’s very strong because it appeals to – it appeals to our flesh, our hearts. We like things without judgment, without…
Dave: Well, it makes me unusual: “Wow! It happened to me, folks!” So that’s also a temptation to pride.
Tom: But our heart’s concern is that it draws people away from the true and living God – from what His plan of salvation…what He has for us.
Dave: Amen! Let’s get back to the Bible. Search the Scriptures daily, and see what God has to say, and never mind what these messengers of deception want to bring to us.