Should Christians Be More Open-minded?

Tom: Thanks, Gary. You’re listening to Search the Scriptures Daily, a program in which we encourage everyone who desires to know God’s truth to look to God’s Word for all that is essential for salvation and living one’s life in a way that is pleasing to Him. If you’ve joined us for the first time, we’re going through Dave Hunt’s book, Seeking and Finding God, and currently, we are in chapter 4. Dave, you have a statement in chapter 4, I think is pretty much what the book is about, or a concern that you have, certainly, and why you wrote the book. You write: “The issue of where one will spend eternity is not a matter of preference, like joining the Elks instead of the Lions. Our opinions and inclinations cannot overturn what God has decreed.”

Dave: Well, that’s pretty straightforward, Tom. I mean, if you believe in God, you believe He created the universe, He created you, you are accountable to Him. He makes the rules; we have to go by His rules. You don’t negotiate with God…

Tom: Mm-hmm.

Dave: …although many people think they can in their prayers, you know, and that’s what prayer is, for many people. I decide what I would like, and then I try to talk God into working it out for me, but He’s not in the business of working out our plans but working out His own plans, and He gives us as human beings the opportunity to cooperate with Him. Now, of course, we’re talking about eternity. When we leave this body—which we do in death—we don’t cease to exist. We’ve gone over that a number of times, and we have scientific proof. We have evidence for it. Where will you be? And, as this little paragraph says, it’s not a matter of cafeteria! You want pecan pie? I’ll take apple. No, God said it; we either accept what He says or we reject what He says, and if we reject it, we suffer the consequences.

Tom: Dave, Chicago philosophy professor Allan Bloom wrote a book called The Closing of the American Mind.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Tom: And you’d think well, that’s because people are so dogmatic about things.

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Tom: But that’s not the case at all!

Dave: Yeah, interesting title. I remember, when did I read this book? When it first came out—that’s got to be 10 years ago, is it, Tom?

Tom: Yeah.

Dave: Could it be that long? Yeah, the older you get, the faster time goes! And, of course, a rather intriguing book. At that point, he was an unknown philosophy professor, as most philosophy professors are! (Chuckles.) They don’t get out into the mainstream of society; they talk with one another. My eldest son is a philosophy professor and, as I’ve said probably several times in this program, that is one of my complaints. You guys write books; you write for one another—such lofty language and concepts. Why don’t you come down to the level of the ordinary person and try to communicate with them? I’m not sure that they even want to do that, but...

Tom: Bloom certainly did.

Dave: He did. And he came up with, I think, a terrific book. He said, “You know, in America, the one virtue is openness,”—open to everything.” You wouldn’t disagree with someone, you wouldn’t say someone was wrong—you might shatter their fragile self-esteem! Besides, how would you even know? There is no such thing as truth. There are no absolutes. Well, he said, “We have become so open to everything, that our minds are closed to the possibility something might be right, and something else wrong. The closing of the American mind through openness, tolerance for anything.” And that, indeed, is the situation today.

Tom: We certainly couldn’t lay that off on the Bible, that you can just pick and choose, as you mentioned before, the cafeteria mentality. Jesus claimed in John:14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
See All...—He said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to the Father but by Me.”

Dave: He also warned, “Broad is the road that leads to destruction; many there be that go in thereat. Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it.” And He urged people: “Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. Strive to enter in at the strait gate,” He said. Well, I don’t want to jump on the Calvinists again, but that’s a verse that the Calvinists have never given me an answer for. James White, in our debate book, avoided it. What do you mean? If this is something that God does—He irresistibly, by His irresistible grace, causes you to come, and He has unconditionally elected you, regardless of what you believe or don’t—what is this about striving to enter in? Why must we make some choices here, and make some decisions to enter the doorway to life? But that’s what Jesus said, and this is why Paul went everywhere persuading people and warning people, and Jesus warned, you know. He even said if your right hand offends you, cut it off. Your eye offends you, pluck it out! Better to enter into life halt or maimed or half-blind than, having all your members, to go to eternal damnation. Now of course, He is speaking figuratively. You don’t literally pluck your eye out and your arm doesn’t do the thinking, but we understand what He means. Nothing is so valuable in this life that it is worth hanging onto and, because of that, losing out for eternity.

Tom: Dave, if Jesus says, and He did say, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father but by Me,” what does that say about all the world’s religions?

Dave: Well, that’s why, Tom, again, I keep repeating myself, but maybe it’s helpful because I’m not sure how seriously people take what I say anyway. I’m only trying to reflect what the Bible says, but I often tell people you could save a lot of time by going to the Bible first. Why would you go to the Bible first? Well, because it says all the other religions are wrong, and if you can prove the Bible is true, you’ve saved a lot of time. Jesus does not…He’s not an ecumenist. He doesn’t say, “Well, take your pick,” or, “Why don’t we get together, you know, the rabbis, the Sadducees and the Pharisees and the atheists and the Romans—we’ll all get together and see if we can’t arrive at some common denominator. We’ll dialogue a little bit.” Now, Tom, you know the Catholic Church has been dialoguing with the Muslims for more than 20 years…

Tom: Right.

Dave: …and the Baptists have been dialoguing with the Catholics, and the Catholics are dialoguing with the Buddhists, the Hindus, and so forth. When John Paul II went to India, he told large Hindu audiences, “I haven’t come here to teach you anything. I’ve come here to learn from your rich spiritual heritage, and the whole world would do well to pay attention to this.” Now come on. You don’t dialogue about mathematics. Now let’s sit down and discuss: “What do you think? Do you think 5 times 5 is really 25? Maybe we could arrive at a common denominator.”

“I don’t think so. I think it’s 20. Why don’t we settle on 22½ or something.”

That’s absurd! Now Jesus says there is only one way. He is the way. We’re going to dialogue about this? You don’t dialogue with Jesus! The Bible is very clear: Jesus said, “Except you believe...[this is John 8] except you believe that I AM,” and that’s the title of God in the Old Testament, for example, “You do not believe that I AM [the I AM, that I am God], you will die in your sins and where I go you cannot come.” Now, you don’t debate with Jesus. You don’t negotiate about this. Jesus very clearly said, “If you do not believe that I am God, who became a man through the virgin birth, you will die in your sins, and where I go you cannot come. You will be shut out of heaven.” Now that’s very clear. We don’t dialogue about it—“Well, you know the Hindus, they have a good point here and there. After all, we all do believe in peace and so forth.”

But this is what’s going on today, Tom, and we try to point out in this book [that] this is a very, very serious matter. I’m not going to take a leap into eternity because the local priest said that’s okay. I remember Cardinal O’Connor—you remember Cardinal O’Connor, dead a few years now.

Tom: Mm-hmm. Archbishop of New York.

Dave: He said, “Church teaching is that Pope…” –and this is, I’m quoting from the New York Times, they had an interview with him. He said, “Church teaching is that John Paul II does not know where he will spend eternity, nor does Mother Teresa, nor do I.” Now, if the pope himself can’t be sure whether he’s going to end up in heaven or hell, can’t be sure if he will be in purgatory or how many masses will have to be said to get him out and so forth, what is the point of following that? But some people say, well, it’s the biggest church, it’s the oldest church. Tom, all we’re trying to say is, let’s find out what God says. We’re going to face Him in judgment and He has the last word. Then why don’t we let Him have the last word right now before it’s too late? That’s all we’re arguing for, Tom.

Tom: Somebody out there listening to us is thinking, Yeah, that sounds…sounds good, but how do I know what God says? How can I be sure? If somebody like myself, who was brought up in the Roman Catholic Church—we were taught to believe what the Church taught, so how could…where else might we go, Dave?

Dave: Number one, Tom, as you know, and you spend more time in this than I do, trying to deal with this particular subject, I think just a little honesty would tell the Catholics…yeah, I talk to Catholics about this, too, that I happen to meet on airplanes and in taxicabs and so forth…look, you know what’s been happening in this church—the pedophilia, they’ve covered this up for years, brought the whole government of Ireland down because the government, too, was covering this up—what confidence does that give you in this Church? You know about annulments, more than 60,000 of them a year in the US. What is an annulment? It’s just divorce by another name. The Church doesn’t believe in divorces and so forth, but they will give you an annulment. Remember the woman that wrote to us, 30 years of marriage, 5 children, her husband gets an annulment? Pretend this whole thing didn’t happen? That’s a fraud. The pope…I’m sorry, Jesus had one robe, He slept in it on the ground the night before His crucifixion because He didn’t even have a house to live in, and the pope has hundreds of the finest silk robes embroidered with gold and jewels and so forth? He has a palace of 1,100 rooms, and he claims to represent Jesus, who hung naked on the cross? The pope is hailed everywhere he goes, and Jesus was despised and rejected of men. And He very clearly said to His disciples, “Because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hates you, and if they did this to Me, what do you think they will do to you if you are true to Me?” Jesus very clearly said, “My kingdom is not of this world; My servants do not fight.” Now, you know that the popes—some of them were the greatest warriors in history. Innocent III never lost a battle! He held all Europe in his grip! They fought with armies and navies to build a huge empire of power and wealth—in the name of Jesus Christ? And they have the Crusaders waving the cross, are killing Jews, the brethren of Jesus, all across Europe, and when they get to Jerusalem, they chase them into the synagogue and set it ablaze. This is the true church? Okay, you don’t have to be too bright to recognize there’s a problem. The Bible—now we can prove scientifically, archaeologically, prophetically, that this is God’s Word—well, then, let’s go with that!

Tom: And, Dave, it’s a matter of common sense and biblical sense. Some of the things that you mentioned with regard to the Roman Catholic Church, and this is just one example of religions out there…

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Tom: …but I think back, you know, growing up Roman Catholic, we were taught…

Dave: Uh, Tom, we’re not trying to jump on Roman Catholics, right?

Tom: No! But, I think, well, first of all, there are 1 billion Roman Catholics out there. It’s a mission field, we believe, I believe, personally, that needs to be addressed, and I think the evangelical church needs…

Dave: We love them! We want to help them!

Tom: Absolutely! How could I be against my family, my relatives, and so on? Certainly, the love of Christ compels me to address these issues. But I just want to make a point for—maybe we have some Roman Catholics listening to us. We were taught that it was through going to Mass, through receiving the sacraments, that we were going to become better. See, Roman Catholicism teaches that grace is an element within, it’s infused within us. You get it at baptism and then you become better and better and better, and the way you become better, more righteous, and this is what you need, this is a necessity for entering heaven, all right…

Dave: According to them.

Tom: …according to the Roman Catholic Church. So, it was through receiving the Eucharist, through going to Mass, through all of these things that we were going to be better and better, become more righteous—it’s infused righteousness that the Roman Catholic Church teaches, not imputed righteousness that the Bible teaches—but anyway, that’s the way we were going to get better and better. Now, Dave, you started off talking about the scandal, sexual scandal, within the Roman Catholic Church. This has to do with priests. Who receives the sacraments more than anybody? So, simple point here of logic: how is it that this scandal, that this immorality, and a lot of the other things that you mentioned—you talked about popes and cardinals and so on and so forth—these individuals ought to be more holy, more righteous, because of what the Church teaches, because they receive the sacraments more than anybody else. Now, it doesn’t make sense.

The other point is the Bible. All you have to do is…at our encouragement, (chuckles) certainly, start reading the Bible and compare what you read with what your church teaches. Now, let’s move away from Roman Catholicism—pick anything else. If you’re a Baptist, if you’re a Methodist, and your life and what you see in your church doesn’t compare with what the Bible teaches, you’ve got problems just as much as any other religion, Hindu, Buddhist, you name it.

Dave: The tragedy is, Tom, God has given us His Word. This is our life, this is the message of life, message of the gospel, and whether they’re Catholics or Protestants or whatever they are, the Bible is being ignored. God’s Word is being ignored. I’ll just ask our listeners out there honestly, how much attention do you pay to what God himself has said? That doesn’t make sense either. If you got a letter—and I don’t know what president you would admire or what great athlete or actor or actress— you get a letter from some important person that you really admire, you would probably frame it! You certainly would read it! And yet, here is a letter written by God, the Creator of the universe, to mankind, and well, it’s the most-bought book, you know, it’s the biggest seller, but where does it sit? On the shelf, gathering dust, because people neglect it.

So that’s the heart of this program, Search the Scriptures Daily—let’s get back to it, and whoever’s listening out there, look—if what we are saying is not true to God’s Word, then please let us know! We don’t want to pass off false information and we do not want to be disobedient to God’s Word, either. Of course, everybody says that—all religious people. But, now it comes down to, well, what does the Bible really say, and that’s what we’re studying.

Tom: Right. Dave, you make a really good point here, and it’s so obvious that (chuckles) maybe we miss it! We mentioned all kinds of religions; we just talked about Buddhism and Hinduism, and within Christianity, the different viewpoints, and so on, but the bottom line, it seems to me, is one has to do with human self-efforts, works…

Dave: Mm-hmm.

Tom: …and the other has to do with the grace of God, what He has done and what we couldn’t do. Can you address that for a second?

Dave: Well, let’s back up just a moment first, because we have a great ecumenical movement, and of course, the pope, Catholic Church, they’re leading this. “We want to get all religions together so we can all agree and then become the leader. Religious ideas and standards will lead the world into peace because we’re all for peace.” But, when you come right down to it, Tom, there are so many differences in religions. On the one hand, Hinduism—they’ve got 330 million gods—so they say, I never counted them—Islam, uh-uh, only one god. Christianity—wait a minute—yes, we believe in one God, but this is a trinity: three Persons, not three gods, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But we believe that Jesus Christ is the only way. Oh no, you can’t do that. “There are many ways,” and so forth.

Okay, so, whether it is Buddhism, which denies the existence of God—most Buddhism would, it’s basically atheism—or Shintoism, the worship of ancestors: there are basic differences among religions so great that you couldn’t possibly do as the pope has done, you know, beginning in Assisi, way back there in the ‘80s. And many times they brought the leaders of all the world’s religions together, and “let’s all get on the same page!” Tom, it’s not possible! They would each have to abandon some of the things that they hold dear, okay? So, forget that! Ecumenism isn’t going to work, all right?

Now, you say, “But wait a minute. There are some similarities between all of them”—and the basic similarity is they all believe that somehow by their efforts, by their rituals, whether it’s a voodoo priest with his hocus pocus or a witch burning candles and mixing potions and so forth, whatever it is, they think that, by their efforts, they’re going to do good, they’re going to be good people, they’re going to, as you said as a Catholic, you’re going to get better and better, turn over a new leaf, try to perform to please God, appease God, and by various rituals—they all have rituals, Tom, that’s a problem—rituals will not get anyone to heaven! You might as well perform a ritual to get yourself off of a parking ticket! It won’t even get you off of a parking ticket! It’s a matter of justice. Justice has been violated; God has laws, and these laws have been broken. It’s a serious matter. Now, how is the payment going to be made? The payment has to be made; the penalty has to be paid! So, as you pointed out, Tom, on one side, you have true Christianity, not false Christianity…

Tom: Biblical Christianity!

Dave: Biblical! Thank you. Biblical Christianity. On the other side, you have all the world’s religions when it comes to salvation, because the Bible says “it’s not by works of righteousness that we have done”—there is no way, when you have once broken the law, you cannot make up for that by keeping the law, even if you could keep it perfectly in the future, because you still have a penalty to be paid for having broken the law, and keeping the law in the future is what the law requires. You don’t get extra credit for that! So what do we do about having broken the law, okay? The Bible says God himself is the only One who could pay that penalty, and He came as a man through the virgin birth, didn’t cease to be God, will never cease to be man, the one and only God-man; because of who He is and His love for us, He paid the penalty for our sins—not the scourging and so forth that Gibson’s movie shows. No, He took the penalty that His own infinite justice required, an infinite penalty, okay? And because He’s God, He could take an infinite penalty, and He bore the penalty for our sins—He bore our sins, it says, okay? All the other religions, it’s, “Well, somehow we’ll appease God, we’ll do some good works or we’ll do some rituals, or we’ll make a deal,” so there is the basic difference.

Now, Tom, I think it’s a matter of simple common sense—if it won’t work in a court of law, my good deeds… the Muslim, we’ve mentioned it before, the Muslim—he thinks that, at the end, the good deeds are weighed in the balance with the bad deeds. If the good deeds outweigh the bad, however you come to that conclusion—What, I saved the lives of 2 people, and I only murdered one person? Now that outweighs it? However you would come to that, it won’t work! There’s not a court of law on this earth that would accept that, okay? That’s…Tom, we’re just trying to be rational. And biblical. Not a court of law on this earth that would accept that, then you think God would accept it? No, but this is what all the religions offer, except biblical Christianity where Christ Himself paid the full penalty for our sins, and now all we must do is accept that payment.

Tom: Dave, going back to that verse we quoted earlier, John:14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
See All..., Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, the life, no one comes to the Father, but by Me.” That’s why He said it.