T. A. McMahon & Perry Trotter (Part 2)

Program Description:

Tom and guest Perry Trotter of Shadows of Shoah continue their discussion on the growing surge of anti-Semitism, particularly in the professing evangelical church.

Transcript:

Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call with T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. Thanks for joining us! In today’s program, Tom continues his conversation with special guest Perry Trotter, founder of the ministry Shadows of Shoah. Now, along with his guest, here’s TBC executive director Tom McMahon.

Tom: Thanks, Gary. This is the second part of our program in which I’m interviewing—really having a great conversation with a friend of mine from New Zealand. He’s a Kiwi. Now, Perry, are you originally a Kiwi or…?

Perry: I am. I’m a fourth-generation New Zealander. So my great-grandfather arrived in New Zealand in 1840…

Tom: Wow.

Perry: …the same year the Treaty of Waitangi was signed, which is our…thought of as a kind of our founding document.

Tom: Yeah. Anyway, Perry and I are talking about a ministry that he has. It’s incredibly unique. Now, to give you some insight, we’re going to be talking about it. We talked quite a bit about it last week, but what I want you to do, folks—you don’t have to do this, but I recommend it, highly recommend it—I want you to…if you’re listening to the program and you have the ability to pause it and you have a computer, I want you to go to www.shadowsofshoah.com. And then, well, from that website you can also find www.shadowsofshoah.com/exhibition/. Now, the reason I’m asking you to do this is that you will see what we’re talking about, and you will actually—as I remember, Perry, you have the entire Shadows of Shoah program on your website so they can see it?

Perry: We have many of the stories available for viewing there.

Tom: Okay. Even if you, folks, even if you just watch a couple of them, you will see, you will understand what we’ll be talking about. Absolutely incredible. Now, for those who didn’t hear our program last week, explain to, or…no, don’t explain, but just give us an overview of Shadows of Shoah, simply what it’s about, and what you’re doing with it.

Perry: Sure. Shadows of Shoah is a work based on survivor interviews and photography. “Shoah” happens to be the Hebrew term for “holocaust.” I have worked as a photographer and a musician, and we’ve created three-minute vignettes of survivors’ accounts, excerpts of their stories, using strong black and white portraits and text overlay and original music, and it’s housed in an exhibition. It is very portable, and we’ll be touring around New Zealand and hopefully all around the world, God willing.

Tom: Mm-hmm. Right. And the purpose of putting this together, Perry?

Perry: Well, I’m deeply concerned at rising anti-Semitism. I see the issue of Israel as being important for every believer, and this is something that I can do to express my solidarity with the Jewish people. I think anti-Semitism is approaching levels that are akin to those in the 1930s, and in fact, I think it’s undeniable that we’re at that kind of level now.

Tom: Right.

Perry: I came across a very frequently quoted report or survey by the Anti-Defamation League, and it said that 24 percent of the French hold overtly anti-Semitic views. The figure in Hungary 63 percent and in Spain it’s as high as 72 percent. This is remarkable that something like these levels of anti-Semitism could be with us in living memory of the Holocaust.

Tom: And if you would ask somebody—for example, last week you mentioned this young German fellow who had a perspective that was stunning. Well, it was outrageous. I don’t mean stunning in a good way. It was just outrageous in terms of misinformed. So do people ever ask you, especially when you’re out speaking to groups—and I’m thinking about Christian groups, per se—why is there an anti-Semitism? Do you ever get that?

Perry: Oh, certainly. And my view, if we step back and look at shall we say the [Mithin?] narrative of the biblical account, I believe that the Scriptures are quite plain in teaching there is a Satan, and God has chosen Israel as a vehicle of His blessing, the instrument through which He deals with mankind, and I think ultimately the world is at war with the Jewish people because the world is at war with the God of the Jewish people. And so this is my view. I identify as an evangelical Christian, but Shadows of Shoah is a non-sectarian work. So, as I mentioned last week, it’s an interesting territory to be working in. I have to keep very careful boundaries as I move forward with this non-sectarian work, and yet these are my views. I make no secret of the fact that I’m an evangelical Christian. And on that subject, I’m almost looking for a new term to describe myself, because when I survey the scene out in Christendom and see various people who identify themselves as evangelical Christians, I’m thinking, I need to find another label, because we have rabid anti-Semites, in my view, identifying themselves as evangelicals. It’s difficult.

Tom: Yeah, it is. I’ll tell you what I use—it may not work for you—but, Perry, I’m just a biblical Christian, and when it comes down to it, to the law and the testimony, as Isaiah wrote. I can miss things and misunderstand some things and so on, but my view is: hey, the Bible, the Word of God, the Scriptures. That’s my authority, so…

Perry: Yeah, and I think that term “biblical” is a useful one in regard to Zionism. I’m unashamedly a Zionist, but I am careful when I use the term “Christian Zionist,” because there are some views out there that are not sufficiently nuanced, shall we say. The fact that I am a biblical Zionist does not mean that I am entirely uncritical of everything that the nation Israel does. It doesn’t mean that at all. My support for Israel and the Jewish people is unconditional, but my--it does not mean that it’s an uncritical support. So in terms of my Zionism, I hope I ground it biblically, even though I’m happy to give defenses for Israel in terms of its conduct, in terms of human rights, and its military actions and the like.

Tom: Mm-hmm. But that’s an interesting thing: you look at the history of Israel and, you know, I’m really putting it in the context of how anti-Semitism raised its head. On what cause? I mean, it’s not like they took over lands, or did certain things that were so offensive to even their neighboring countries. There just doesn’t seem to be anything there except of course, you know, you’ve got the myths of the come along that they apply to the Jews throughout the world. But there is no basis…you know, it isn’t like a country that is—well, all right, we don’t want to get into the issue of Islam and so on, but there have been many countries that have tried to take over other countries, do this, do that, subjugate people and so on—you don’t find it. So they have to make stuff up, don’t they?

Perry: They do, and I have, of course, many Jewish friends, and I frequently ask them, “How do you explain anti-Semitism?” And most of them, I believe, are very lacking for rationale. The theories they put forward are not sufficient, in my view. And I think ultimately anti-Semitism is a spiritual force. Ultimately it is.

Tom: Right. Well, let’s talk about that. You mentioned last week—we didn’t get into it too much—what about Replacement Theology? First of all, explain that to our listeners and—what’s that all about? How does that fit in to anti-Semitism?

Perry: Well, I believe that Replacement Theology could be described thus: it’s a view that the church has replaced Israel. Now, when we look through the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, we find that there are these various covenants established; for example, the Abrahamic covenant established, or announced, I should say, in Genesis 12 and established in Genesis 15. And then you have the Davidic covenant, you have the new covenant and so on. And basically, a replacementist is going to take the view that that covenant that might have been made with the Jewish people concerning the land of Israel is either annulled or it has been transferred to the church. In most forms of Replacement Theology, the church is the “new Israel,” and so to all intents and purposes, Israel is no longer valid or relevant to God’s redemptive plan for mankind. That would be a working definition.

Tom: Right. And we would say that those who hold to that, wittingly or unwittingly, they haven’t taken it to its conclusion. For example, I grew up Roman Catholic, and if you’re going to point to a religious system—I can’t say they started…well, it could go back to Augustine and others, but basically it’s saying that the Jews and the rationale would be because they rejected Christ, that now the church is Israel. Anywhere in the Scriptures that refers to Israel, that’s been replaced by the church.

Perry: That’s right. And sometimes, as you’ve alluded, the Replacement Theology is a kind of passive view. It’s something that’s been adopted but not worked through. But other times, and increasingly, it’s becoming very militant, and I think it’s quite clear that the theology of Martin Luther contributed to the Holocaust, or that it laid theological ground for the Holocaust to take place. I think that’s quite clear. And in more recent times, some of the statements that have been brought out by theologians are quite strong. Let me give you an example from Albert Peters where he says this: “God willed that after the institution of the new covenant, there should no longer be any Jewish people in the world, yet here they are. That is a fact, a very sad fact, brought about by the wicked rebellion against God.” Now, I would take the opposite view, and that is the fact that the Jewish people exist today as an identifiable people group is testimony to the faithfulness of God.

Tom: Right.

Perry: So there’s really little place for any commonality with that gentleman. It’s really the antithesis of where I’m standing.

Tom: Right. You know, Perry, I could point to—I don’t know the individual that you just quoted, but I do know that this idea of Replacement Theology pervades the church, particularly those who have come out of a Reformation theology—Calvinist, for example—Knox Seminary, D. James Kennedy, this is Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida, and they went on record as saying that the Israel is not the Israel of God, the Israel today, and that the people there are not part of God’s plan; that the church is Israel. Now, you’d say, “Well, D. James Kennedy, here’s a popular evangelical pastor.” And yet when somebody like that—and we could name others who are on the fence or at least on that dangerous line between anti-Semitism and just an erroneous idea biblically—that’s a huge problem. And we see it growing.

Perry: We do, we do. And one of the things that I’m observing is that replacementists are becoming sophisticated in their response. Very often I’m hearing people say, “Oh, no, I don’t hold to Replacement Theology, I hold to Fulfillment Theology, or Extension Theology, or Inclusion Theology.” And my response to that is that that’s akin to somebody who’s a burglar, somebody who steals things, saying, “Oh, no, I’m not a burglar, I’m merely engaged in nocturnal asset relocation.”

Tom: [laughs] You know, Perry…

Perry: It’s simply not the case. It is a theological crime, and I think it cuts right across the central themes of the Scriptures.

Tom: Yeah. You mentioned Luther earlier. Well, Hitler gave him the credit for his view. He wrote one of the most anti-Semitic tracts out there. You know, it’s not that Luther got everything wrong, but these are really serious, serious issues, and one of the things that I’m writing about this now, the cry of the reformers. As I mentioned, I have a Roman Catholic background, so I appreciate the reformers and what many of them did against this huge monolith of the Roman Catholic Church. But nevertheless, their cry was, “Sola scriptura!” That was the banner of the Reformation. Well, Perry, you mentioned it: the Scriptures you quoted, sola scriptura, the Scripture alone, you quoted from the Scripture! How did they miss that? How did these things that come in on the basis of, “Well, we’ve got the answer because this is Reformation Theology and so on.” But they don’t live up to sola scriptura, the Lutherans.

Perry: They don’t, and I think you’re making an important point, and that is the difference between profession and practice. We agree with the profession that you take the text at face value…

Tom: Absolutely.

Perry: …but do they practice that? And look at how the cardinal central elements of the biblical faith are derived: it’s from a plain reading of the biblical text. And yet when they approach the issue of Israel, they do anything but. And they admit they do anything but read the text at face value. Let me give you a quote from Floyd Hamilton, the replacementist: “Now we must frankly admit that a literal interpretation of the Old Testament prophecies gives us just such a picture of an earthly reign of the Messiah as the pre-millennialist pictures.” So in other words, he’s stating that yes, the text does state what you and I, Tom, hold to. He’s admitting that, that that’s what the text says. So the argument is not over what the text says, but over what the text means.

Tom: Oh, brother.

Perry: Now, when you encounter that kind of approach when it comes to an issue like the resurrection of the Messiah or the virgin conception or the veracity of the miracles and so on, when you come to that kind of approach, you identify it as rank liberalism, do you not?

Tom: Mm-hmm.

Perry: When you—when somebody rejects the plain meaning of the text?

Tom: Right.

Perry: See my point?

Tom: Right.

Perry: Whereas they’re taking a similar approach to the liberals, but in regard to the issue of Israel. Of course, they would respond that I’m being far too simplistic in my approach, but I would still argue that if the text is taken at face value, as they admit, it will lead to the view that you and I hold.

Tom: See, here’s the rub, and it’s a big rub: we would say what we’re trying to do is figure out what God has in mind, all right? This is hermeneutics. This is the objective Word of God, we as the recipients of God’s Word are trying to understand what He is saying to us. But the other view: now it comes down to the meaning. Well, you know, words can mean anything. How many people have I heard say to me over the years, “Well, you know, you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say.” No, that would be impossible. If words have meaning, have context, this is not rocket theology. This is just understanding the Word of God, which was written not for the rabbis, not for the scholars alone, at least, but for everyday, common man. That’s God’s responsibility, I believe, to communicate that to us if we’re willing to receive it, if we’re willing to do diligence in studying His Word.

Perry: Of course, I agree with you. And I think that we see this rejection of the plain meaning of the text played out in Genesis 3. I think with the statement, “Did God really say that?” we see the hermeneutical approach that a replacement theologian must take in regard to the text concerning Israel. We see it there. And the reality is we are all accountable for what God has revealed, all of us.

Tom: Exactly.

Perry: And I believe the issue of Israel is no minor issue. I think it’s a prominent, prominent issue. The text seems to give two-thirds or 75 percent place to Israel, either in narrative form, in many cases in prophecy form--the issue of Israel is clearly important to the Lord, and therefore, it ought to be important to me.

Tom: Yeah. Now, in contrast to that, we’re seeing militant Christian anti-Zionism making progress through the evangelical church, even the liberal churches: we found that they are boycotting Israel here and there. On what basis? Well, they say because that land is really the Palestinians’. They have abused and persecuted the so-called Palestinians and so on. But let’s bring it back to the part of the church that claims to be biblical, evangelical Christianity: what’s the deal with that, Perry?

Perry: Well, I cannot judge the heart, but I must judge what is spoken and what is done. And in regard to those who profess to be evangelicals and their willingness, in many cases, to stand against Israel, to single Israel out, I think it’s unacceptable, and I have difficulty telling it apart from anti-Semitism. I’m not suggesting for a moment that all anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism, but I do think that when you start to analyze it, the anti-Zionism, much of it does actually look very much like anti-Semitism. There’s an interesting quote by Natan Sharansky who’s talking about the issue of anti-Zionism. Of course, not all anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism. However, I would argue that anti-Zionism is the mask that’s frequently worn by modern anti-Semitism.

Tom: Mm-hmm.

Perry: Now, Tom, Sharansky made a very terrifying comment. He spoke of the “Three Ds.” He makes the observation that when Israel is demonized, and delegitimized, and when a double standard is used to assess Israeli behavior, that is indeed anti-Semitism. And my observation is that those characteristics are increasingly present in obvious features of Christian anti-Zionism.

Tom: Right. Well, there’s the contradiction in terms here. Anyone who calls themselves a “Christian”—well, what are they supposed to do? They’re supposed to go by the Book, all right? I’m a Christian; Perry, you’re a Christian; and we go by the Book. How else are we going to know what a Christian is, what a Christian is supposed to do, how he’s supposed to act, and how he can be enabled to act? I mean, obviously I’m talking about somebody who has believed the gospel, who recognizes that Jesus paid the full penalty for his or her sins, and they accepted that as the only payment that would ever satisfy God and reconcile us to God. So that’s Christian. But I didn’t make that up; Perry, you didn’t make it up; that’s what the Book says. So at least, at the very least, someone who whether they call themselves a Christian anti-Zionist, they are basically an “anti-biblical” Christian. That’s a huge problem.

Perry: I think it is, too, and I somewhat provocatively make this statement: that God is the supreme Zionist. Now, if that’s true, then these people are unwise poking their theological fingers into the eyes of God. It’s not a good place to be.

Tom: No, no. You quoted it earlier: “Those who,” well, last week, at least, “Those who bless Israel God will bless. Those who curse Israel God will curse.” I didn’t make that up. That’s not something that a group of people got together and said, “Well, here’s a good idea.” This is God’s Word, and the reality is they are going to reap what they have sown in that area.

Perry: That’s right, I believe so. And another observation I’d like to make is that throughout history, there have been particular topics that one had better understand rather clearly at particular times in history. So for example, if one lived in Jerusalem in the days before the destruction and the siege that began in  [AD] 66, and the destruction in 70, one had better understand what the Gospel of Luke revealed about what was to happen, what you were to do when the city was surrounded by armies. And similarly, I would argue that it’s increasingly obvious that the period that the Scriptures speak so much about, this time of Chevlei Mashiyach that I understand the rabbis call it, or that we might call the tribulation period, this time of great conflict, the birth pangs of Messiah, I believe it could be approaching very soon, and so if that’s the case, one had better find one’s self on the right side of this issue, and the Scriptures, as we’ve argued, are not silent. I don’t think they’re unclear, either.

Tom: Mm-hmm. Well, what can our audience do? I’m going to pick up on this. What I would like them to do, Perry, is go to www.shadowsofshoah.com to learn more about your ministry, to pray for your ministry, and be encouraged, and let what, by the grace of God, what Perry and his wife, Sheree, have put together; let that speak to their hearts. So, again, Perry, thank you for joining me in this conversation.

Perry: Thanks, Tom. It’s been great to speak with you.

Gary: You’ve been listening to Search the Scriptures 24/7 with T.A. McMahon, a radio ministry of The Berean Call. We offer a wide variety of resources to help you in your study of God’s Word. For a complete list of materials and a free subscription to our monthly newsletter, contact us at PO Box 7019 Bend, OR, 97708. Call us at 800-937-6638, or visit our website at the bereancall.org. I’m Gary Carmichael. We’re glad you could tune in, and invite you to join us again next week. Until then, we encourage you to Search the Scriptures 24/7.