Program Description: Tom welcomes back his guest Mike Oppenheimer as they continue their fascinating discussion on UFOs and Extraterrestrials, including the Nephilim.
Gary: Welcome to Search the Scriptures 24/7, a radio ministry of The Berean Call featuring T.A. McMahon. I’m Gary Carmichael. We’re glad you could join us. In today’s program, Tom continues his conversation with Mike Oppenheimer of Let Us Reason Ministries. Now along with his guest, here’s TBC executive director Tom McMahon.
Tom: Thanks, Gary. Well, this is the second part of our discussion with Mike Oppenheimer. Mike’s ministry in apologetics is letusreason.org, and we’ve been talking about, as I said last week, something “far out,” but not too far out: it’s UFOs. A bad pun, but it’s important.
As we described it last week, UFOs have been around for thousands of years in – whatever time period, whatever culture, they seem to be a little bit more advanced than the culture, obviously representing themselves as some entities that can help out the culture that’s more advanced, and that’s part of the seduction. But then we have things like Close Encounters of the Third Kind—we’ll talk about that, that supposedly people have been taken captive by them, and…but we’ll get into that.
But Mike, where I want to pick up this week is UFOs. Some people say they’re extraterrestrials – so in other words, they’re from a planet maybe outside our solar system – or they are extra-dimensional, that they’re non-physical. The extraterrestrials would be physical. But there are problems with both sides. And, Mike, what I’d like you to do is give us some examples, but also tell us, bottom line, who you believe these entities are that are a part of the phenomenon.
Mike: Well, we know Satan has a strategy, and he has a long-term strategy to affect the mass of people in the world. Satan is the head of the fallen angels, and Ephesians:2:2 says he’s the “prince of the power of the air.” We read in Job he goes “to and fro on the earth.” He’s not just sitting on a throne ruling from hell, as some believe. We read he can become a messenger of light. He can still become a being of light that he once was before he fell. When we looked at, like, the Marian apparitions – which are quite similar – they involve light. Light can be manipulated and seen as just about anything or anyone.
Now, just to put out some of the alternate views, some have considered these craft to be built by men to deceive us of life elsewhere, which certainly is in the realm of possibilities, but I don’t think these are actual, physical ships built in some type of factory on the moon or Mars, or from Agharttha, a civilization they believe is under the earth. The question that needs to be answered in all this is, “Are UFOs that we see actual, physical craft?” We know that they are tracked by radar, they’re seen in pictures and videos – even on radar they can go 7,000 miles an hour, and they can make sharp right-angle turns. They violate the laws of physics. They can make stops from these tremendous speeds, which is basically impossible for a physical object to do and survive the inertia. They even go through the sound barrier without making a sound. UFOs, I believe, have less to do with technology than they have to do with spiritual powers of deceptive influences.
Mike: The vehicles have changed as our culture has changed. As you’re saying, they’re like one step ahead of our culture. They have become more sophisticated as we advance in technology. The objects change shape, size, [and] color at random. They can split into portions and then reassemble; they disappear and reappear; they go through physical objects. If they are real, they’re not physical, at least the way we understand what physical is. They are of a spiritual nature almost like a living protoplasm – which a lot of people in the New Age actually describe them as that. They may be somewhat multi-dimensional, because they defy the laws of physics. Yet we still have evidences, people say, of them being a weighted vehicle on the ground, and they leave burn marks.
So it’s quite strange to really nail it all down. You could see a UFO with your eyes, and then go to the photograph, and it will not always show up on the film. Other times you may not see anything when you take a picture, and then it shows up later. Real, physical objects do not behave like this, and what looks to us as physical vehicles may in fact be life forms that we don’t understand. Consider Ezekiel’s wheels in Ezekiel 1 and 10, which so many have dubbed as a UFO. Yet if one reads on, they find that to be a cherub, a certain type of angel that’s being described in how it moves. So I believe these are angelic beings; they are fallen angels that can change their form.
A similar idea would be when people see ghosts, and they see the ghost look exactly like somebody that they knew. Well, how does that happen? Because the spirit can change its identity, and so I believe they can change form to, in some ways, use some powers that they have that we don’t really understand, as angels, and make themselves look like something they want us to believe in so they can deceive us.
Tom: Right. Mike, last week we talked about a man named Jacques Vallée who was an astrophysicist – I assume he’s still alive today – a computer scientist… As a matter of fact, in the movie Close Encounters of the Third Kind, there was a French director who played the part of Jacques Vallée in that story, and of course that dealt with physical objects. It dealt with… The mentality, at least of the movie, was that these beings were encountering us – even drawing people away, taking them away, and then returning them, and so on – which, you know, I mean, that’s movie business. But the point is many of the things that were promoted had to do with these objects as physical crafts.
Now, Mike, SETI, which is related to this – the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence – this was a program. It’s a program today that, you know, governments are putting money behind. What’s the story about that?
Mike: Well, since evolution has been accepted to such a great extent, scientists have taken the next step to pursue alien life. After all, their logic is if life began on earth by chance, certainly with more time it could have begun elsewhere and be even more advanced in their development. The SETI Institute – Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence – was connected with NASA. Now numerous groups in the universities are involved. They send radio signals into space and listen for some response. And so, many different groups work in conjunction with SETI, where they split up little pieces of the sky and they send it to people participating over the internet to analyze it. This way they’re able to cover more areas in space.
So today we have – almost unanimously, scientists now believe we are not alone, and this is one of the reasons we sent the Voyager spacecraft out into space accompanied with a message to try to contact other life, and it actually recently went beyond our solar system. And so a lot of people… I think this goes back to a number of different things besides all the movies and the books, one of them being the von Däniken theory – which is still popular as when it first came out – where he ended up pointing to certain buildings in the world as proof of ancient astronauts. He said the gods were visiting us. Drawings he pointed out that could only be viewed from the air was proof of extraterrestrial visitors. Even the Ark of the Covenant for Israel he interpreted as a radio transmitter to alien astronauts. So to him, God was an astronaut.
Well, his book Chariots of the Gods has now sold over 63 million copies, and there’s been a lot of debunking of this theory – especially on Youtube there’s some very good videos that refute him – but there’s always new theories being brought up.
One of those new theories that is being held in the New Age movement and now has been adopted by scientists is what’s called panspermia, which in Greek translates literally as “seeds everywhere.” And this hypothesis is that the seeds of life are all over the universe and can be propagated through space from one location to another either through microorganisms hitching a ride on an asteroid or a meteorite, or even through space winds, and this is not a new theory. This has been around since the late 1700s. French natural historian de Maillet believed that life on earth was seeded by germs from space falling in the oceans, and Lord Kelvin in 1871 believed that there were countless seed-bearing meteorite stones moving through space and very well could have caused life on earth. And even in 1973 we have the late Nobel prize winner, molecular biologist Francis Crick along with chemist Leslie Orgel, that proposed the theory of directed panspermia where the seeds of life are purposely brought by an advanced extraterrestrial civilization instead of the old evolutionary theories that we have developed on our own.
Tom: Mm-hmm. You know, Mike, I was – right after E.T. came out, this company – it was a secular company, but it had Christians involved, and they wanted me to do a documentary dealing with UFOs, extraterrestrial life, and so on, because – as you mentioned last week with regard to the genre of alien life, UFOs, and so on – sometimes they’re for us, sometimes they’re against us. You mentioned Independence Day, War of the Worlds – you know, they’re the baddies. But then E.T., now we have something that’s friendly and kind, and they don’t mean us harm, and so on.
Now, in doing the documentary, I interviewed one of the men at the planetary society which was started by Carl Sagan, and you know, I asked him what the probability – well, you know, why they would be involved with SETI, Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligences. What’s the motivation behind that, especially since the government is – our taxes are paying for it? And he said “probability” – you know, that there are billions…as Carl Sagan used to say, “billions and billions and billions” of planets, stars, and so on, so just based – if it formed here, it must have formed some place else.
But, Mike, I had a film crew there, and I’d have gotten thrown out if I would have asked him a follow-up question, and the question would have been, “What is the probability [of] life coming from non-life?” You know? I think it’s something like 40 thousand zeros – you know, a one with 40 thousand zeros after. But the point is that all the things that you just mentioned, that you just articulated – the ideas, everything that’s coming forth – it’s going back to a basic problem: never mind panspermia, but how did it all begin? And that’s the issue: did it start from non-life, or was there always life? Nobody would agree with that, so it’s a real problem.
Mike: Well, again, we’re dealing with the evolutionary theory, and what they’ve done is pushed the evolution theory one step away from us. But again, you still have to deal with the same problems that you brought up: does life come from non-life? Whether it’s on earth or another planet, it still is the same problem.
Tom: The other thing, Mike, I want you to talk about – and maybe I’ll add to it – is given the biblical perspective…and we call ourselves biblical Christians; we take a biblical worldview. We know what the gospel is, okay? Those who have believed that Jesus paid the full penalty for our sins; that He was God who became a man; He went to the cross, paid for our sins on the cross; again, through His death, burial, and resurrection, it was accomplished; it was finished. He paid the full penalty for our sins. That’s the gospel. How does that fit? Last week I mentioned that these things took place not on some other planet, not in some other galaxy, but in Bethlehem, in Jerusalem, in Israel. What does that mean to an extraterrestrial or a form of life that’s not even human? You know, as you mentioned last week – the Vatican said they would baptize Martians. Why would you baptize a Martian? If they’re sinners, I mean, that would be the only reason to baptize them, but we don’t believe that baptism saves you. But they would have no relationship – no understanding of the gospel, the Word of God, and so forth. I mean, do you agree with that?
Mike: Well, yeah, and of course the New Age has a completely different gospel, you know? Their gospel is to enlighten man, and they always flatter people when they talk to people through their transmissions however they’re conducted, whether through channeling or through automatic writing or what-have-you. We find the same occult ways that are used in regular mediums and séances are used also through the New Age by what they call “space brothers.” And so they have a completely different gospel where they’re trying to tell people that we’re on an evolutionary ladder to become gods, which is the very same lie that was given by the devil to Eve in the Garden.
Mike: So nothing’s really changed, and so they want us to believe in evolution. They want us to believe there’s life elsewhere, that the whole universe is teeming with life. I remember one program, Benjamin Creme on radio was saying that there’s life on all the planets, except it’s etheric—you can’t see it, but every planet has life. Well, that’s convenient to say: it’s all there, but you can’t see it!
Tom: [chuckling] Right!
Mike: But then you have people that just accept these stories because people have, you know, a whole background involved in these things for many, many years, and they accept these things as truth.
Tom: Mm-hmm. You see, our encouragement to young believers – to believers who are sort of dabbling in this – is you’ve got to recognize that all the things that they are saying is antithetical to a biblical worldview; it’s antithetical – it’s contrary to the gospel. Basically, if that’s the case, it’s antichrist. So it’s not like I’m just throwing a label out there. This is so contrary to what a Christian is to believe. To now try to work it in, to fit it in with their Christian beliefs – it’s syncretism. It’s an amalgamation of things that really don’t go together. Now…
Mike: Well, exactly. I mean, every time you hear these beings speak, whatever vehicle they use – whether it’s dreams, visions, or putting images or words in people’s minds – they always bring up the idea of reincarnation.
Mike: And so, like you’re saying, every step of the way their message is against the Bible. And so when they talk about Jesus, it’s not Jesus who’s God the Creator, but He’s one Being among many. He’s an ascended Master; He’s a Jesus who travels in a UFO.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Now Mike, but what we’re seeing among those who – I’m not saying that they’re not Christians, but they sort of come into some of these that I’ve just articulated with a Christian view, but they’re trying to use the Bible to support it. What I’m talking about is the Nephilim.
Tom: Mike, could you explain that to our audience?
Mike: Sure can, and I think if you do a search on the web, it’s incredible how much is being said about Nephilim, and they do use the Bible and basically distort it.
Tom: Well, first of all, define the term for us and where it comes from.
Mike: Well, Nephilim means “fallen ones,” okay? And we’re going back to Genesis 6, where it talks about the sons of God taking women, and it says the Nephilim were created from them. Now, we know regular angels can take human form; they can become physical when entering the earth’s atmosphere, and there’s a lot of different theories on who they are. But even if one believes in the Nephilim as an angelic offspring back then in Genesis 6, the problem arises saying that it continues today…
Mike: …and what they do is they use the phrase
“like the days of Noah,” and they think that whatever happened then is going to be an exact repeat of that time. But look around us: we’re not seeing people live [to] 900 years old, and Noah and his family were the only ones that believed in God in that time in the correct manner. So what Jesus is speaking about is the attitude of the people. You know, in Genesis:6:11 it says, “The earth was corrupt in God’s sight, full of violence. All the people on earth had corrupted their ways.” And so when we come to the relative Scriptures like in 1 Peter:3:20 where it talks about the divine long-suffering waiting in the days of Noah while the ark was being prepared, we know the Spirit was striving – restraining sin - from the preaching of Enoch and even Noah for 120 years.
So when it talks about “like the days of Noah,” it’s actually referring to an impending judgment as things continue. People were unprepared. They were corrupted, and we find those statements in Luke 17 and Matthew:24:37 where it’s talking about the coming of the Son of man, and He goes into a description right afterwards and gives us the statements about how it will be. So it’s not really guesswork to know what it would be like, and it’s all relating to a judgment coming. And it says in verse 39 that they didn’t know “until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of man be.” So this is the direct correlation that He’s talking about, and He ends the portion of Scripture with, “Watch therefore. Ye do not know the hour your Lord is coming.” In other words, don’t become corrupt with the world that’s all around you. Be ready for the Son of man that is coming at an hour you don’t expect.
So the other problem with all this is the Bible tells us that all that had breath died. Only eight survived the flood, and they were on the ark, and I don’t think one can prove from […] that the Nephilim got into UFOs and flew away only to revisit us again today. So whatever Genesis 6 is, it’s a unique event that’s not repeated. And even further in 2 Peter 2 and Jude:1:6, it talks about the angels that didn’t stay in their own domain and left it, and it kind of refers to these angels being in Noah’s day; it says that they are reserved in chains of darkness for judgment. So whatever one wants to think of the Nephilim being on the earth in those days, they’re not coming back today.
Tom: Mm-hmm. Mike, as you pointed out, there are so many ideas about it – selling books… there are conferences – prophecy conferences that are promoting this; it’s mixing the UFO idea now with the Nephilim that these are “star children,” that we have these entities on the earth that are the product of aliens having intercourse with humans—it’s science fiction, it’s wild, it’s bizarre, but people love that. But as I said earlier, this is all antithetical to the Scriptures. So you’re either going to go by the Word of God, or you’re going to not just – you know, they try to extrapolate, but it’s speculation. They push this idea even to the point where they’re digging up bones in South America and say, “Well, this is a corpse of a Nephilim,” and so on, and…
Mike: Right, every strange thing that they find is always part of what happened in Genesis 6. The problem is they want to make it fit the biblical model, and they try to relate it to this one-time event far in the past that we know so little about, and obviously they’re not offspring of angels; they are the fallen angels that are coming today, making… Demons tell lies…
Mike: …and so even the Christians can fall for these lies of these fallen angels telling us that they are the entities from way back when. The abductions that result in this have more to do with demonic descriptions; they’re not offspring that are being produced today, although I’ve seen at the local supermarket magazines with stories of a star baby from aliens! It happens almost every month. But they are not who they say they are, and if I may borrow a term from the popular Transformer movie, they are “decepticons.” Remember, the “last days” is about lying signs and wonders – not true ones, lying ones. And just as humans are superior to animals, the angelic creatures, even though they are fallen, still would be superior to us in some ways, and so we have no idea about the powers they have to deceive us. And the hybrids that we need to be concerned about is, as you said, the New Age ideas infringing on Christianity.
Tom: Right. Well, my guest has been Mike Oppenheimer of Let Us Reason. His website is letusreason.org. Mike, fascinating, fascinating stuff. Sadly, too many who profess to be Christians have bought into this, but Jesus said in Matthew:24:4 talking about the last days, “Take heed that no man deceive you…”
Tom: …and that’s characteristic of the day we’re in. Anyway, Mike, thanks for being with us, and we’ll have to do this again. Thank you.
Mike: Thank you, Tom. God bless.
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